35mm Prime Lens Options

[Tonaci Tran]

I'd like to start this thread so that future RED owners will be aware of the possible cine prime lens options for 4k shooting.

Cooke S4
Cooke S2 & S3 (discontinued)
Zeiss Master Primes
Zeiss Ultra Primes
Zeizz Ultra Prime LDS
Zeiss Super Speeds 1.3 (discontinued)
Zeiss Standard Primes 2.1 (discontinued)
Elite Primes

Various Russian Primes

Jim mentioned the possibility of RED 1.9 primes..but it was only a thought. No official commitment yet, though this could be a possible NAB announcement =)

Is this it folks? What others are there?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I was thinking of starting this very same thread...

I don't have any others off the top of my head, but I'm really starting to look into various options. As I plan to acquire RED, I will also be needing lenses. I may pick up a cheaper s16 lens or two for starters, but I would prefer to keep all my lens options 4K/35mm capable. I'm not entirely sure what to think of the RED 300MM lens and I'm planning on reserving it along with my camera though.

While I know of the above mentioned pieces of glass, I really have no direct experience with any cine lenses like the Cooke primes or others. My lens experience is primarily limited to 35mm still photography with Nikon and EOS lenses.

It would be interesting to see what others are planning to use and why. I will also be needing a good macro zoom lens and would appreciate any opinions on such a beast that can handle s35mm/4K.

[Tonaci Tran]

IF you are shopping for used lenses, my advice is to start now. In the next several months I predict that the prices of used 35mm lenses will go up due to demand. Reservations are around 1070ish. After NAB, this number will increase drastically, therefore, more users will be in the market looking for lenses. Of course not everyone will want to buy and not everyone can afford a cooke s4/arri master prime set. The more I researched this, the more I realize that an affordable prime lens set is sorely missing in the market..(cough cough) Jim.

[Steve Gibby]

It will be interesting to see what RED announces at NAB. Right now they're slammed just getting the camera finished and shipping. After they're over that hurdle, it wouldn't surprise me to see them announce a set of high-quality, moderately priced primes. I have no direct knowledge of any such plans by RED, but I'm sure they're well aware of the need and demand for primes.

[Dominic Jones]

What others are there?
Earlier Cooke's like the Speed Panchros, Angenieux (particularly zooms though), Schneider make some glass for 35mm coverage (although they're stronger in the 16mm world)...

You also get re-mounted stills lenses (particularly Nikkor and Canon) for the longer lengths, like 300mm, in common use.

I'm sure Stephen W (and most likely others) can give you a more exhaustive list when he/they stumble across this thread...

[Stephen Williams]

Earlier Cooke's like the Speed Panchros, Angenieux (particularly zooms though), Schneider make some glass for 35mm coverage (although they're stronger in the 16mm world)...

You also get re-mounted stills lenses (particularly Nikkor and Canon) for the longer lengths, like 300mm, in common use.

I'm sure Stephen W (and most likely others) can give you a more exhaustive list when he/they stumble across this thread...

Hi,

The original list is good, if you have loads of money then add Master Primes.

B&L super balitars like S2/S3 Cookes are beautiful lenses, however unless rebuilt at huge expense are no more user friendly than Still lenses IMHO.

Stephen

Edit There are some Canon High Speed lenses, nearly as good as superspeeds but 1/3 price.

[Dominic Jones]

There ya go - always on hand to sharpen our collective wits!

Cheers Stephen!...

[Greg M]

I'd like to start this thread so that future RED owners will be aware of the possible prime lens options for 4k shooting.

Cooke S4s
Zeiss Master Ultra Primes
Zeiss Super Speeds 1.3
Elite Primes
Zeiss Standard Primes 2.0

Those are off the top of my head.

Jim mentioned the possibility of RED 1.9 primes..but it was only a thought. No official commitment yet, though this could be a possible NAB announcement =)

What others are there?

The Arri Zeiss lenses come in 3 current variations:

Master Primes
Ultra Primes
Ultra Prime LDS

There is no MASTER ULTRA Prime. The LDS lenses have the Lens Data connections on the lens itself.

The Super Speeds and Normal Speed Zeiss lenses are not available new only used and are very hard to find. I personally have the Ultra Primes and would highly recommend them, IMHO they look better than the Master Primes or Super Speeds. I have used all of the above lenses on both 35mm Arri cameras and on Video Cameras w/ a Pro35 adapter.

You may want to add to your list the various Russian versions, I have never used these but they could be considered as an economical option.

[Stephen Williams]

I personally have the Ultra Primes and would highly recommend them, IMO the have a far superior look to either the Master Primes or Super Speeds. .

Hi,

A couple of years ago Geoff Boyle tested lenses, CML members were asked to vote.

The winner was 1st Cooke S4, 2nd Super Speeds, 3rd Ultra Primes.

Stephen

[Greg M]

Hi,

A couple of years ago Geoff Boyle tested lenses, CML members were asked to vote.

The winner was 1st Cooke S4, 2nd Super Speeds, 3rd Ultra Primes.

Stephen

Yes but remember "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"
I have tried all 3 and my preference is with the Ultra Primes, which is why I invested $65k in a set. But of course, everyone will have their preference. Personally the Super Speeds fall very low on my list, the Cooke s4's were a virtual tie w/ Ultra Primes, but the cost is higher.

[Stephen Williams]

Yes but remember "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"


Hi,

That was IMHO the problem with the Ultra Primes. They do have very good focus marks however.

Stephen

[Matt Uhry]

Lenses along with filmstock ( and I guess now we'll have to start saying sensor ) are the chief elements that determine the look at the camera end. ( At the subject end it's lighting, composition and of course the subject. ) Lenses have distinct personalities. High contrast, high resolution, low distortion, resistance to flare. and even field illumination are admirable qualities in a lens and help to render perfect images, some projects are better shot with imperfect, organic lenses... It's up to you to decide.

Here's my Opinions... I'd love to hear what yours are....

The Panavision lenses are rental only, Zeiss's and Cook's are widely available for rent or purchase.

Master Prime (i've only used these a little) +Excellent in every respect. -large and heavy very expensive to rent or buy.

Cooke S4's +Excellent, minimal breathing, more AC friendly than the Ultra Primes. great beauty lens, cooke s4's seem to make subjects seem more dimensional than zeiss primes. -ugly bokeh at times due to 6 bladed iris.

Panavision Primo +Excellent, much like cooke s4's except round iris. Panavision has some of the worlds best lens techs and the set you get is likely to be very well maintained. -PV mount, rental only.

Ultra Prime +Excellent, a little higher contrast than the s4's, very good for close focus, wide's 10mm, 12, 14, are lower distortion than the s4's highly flare resistant. - can sometimes feel a little harsh.

Zeiss Super Speed +Good, very compact more flare than the modern lenses, it's a 1.3 -lens performs poorly wide open. *Older Mk1's have a triangular iris that looks cool sometimes, check out Taxi Driver to see what I mean.

Elite's Have not used much, many different versions exist, Some are nice. Probably a shaky investment as far as resale value. MKBK's high speed are bargains at around $2,000 a set, but they are in oct-19 mount and conversion to PL is not simple.

Panavision US, SS ,UZ series Some treasures lurk on the Panavision lens shelf. It's worth exploring. Some of these lenses are beautiful and have unusual characteristics. - front elements seemingly of random diameter. Makes it a pain to use matteboxes. -PV mount, rental only

Zeiss Vari-Primes +Excellent preformance, Variable focal lentghs, can look not pretty when you zoom- it's a vari-prime -fricking large and heavy.

Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these.

LENS MOUNTS:

I've seen a lot of people post about lens mounts. I think you'll be able to mount pretty much any lens onto the Red. ( with highly varied photographic results of course ) There is no spinning mirror to limit clearance of the back of the lens. It will be a simple task for an experienced metal worker to make a collar that adapts any mount to the red. A good trick to getting the parts is to but a broken body or an extension tube which will yield a pentax, hassy, leica, whatever mount that you can bold onto your red. Bear in mind that some wide angles, especially ones for leica m's might not illuminate the sensor as evenly as you might like, this is due to the CMOS performing less well than film with light that comes in at a high angle of incident. But who knows, it might look cool anyway.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
DP, LA IA600

[Evin Grant]

Hey Matt, nice to see you around. Don't know if you remember I was in the 04 Group 101 Spots. Hope everything's going well.

[dappe]

I just wanted to run this by you guys since you all seem quite experienced.
I'm based in Stockholm, Sweden and I'm pretty much just starting my career. I have yet to use the Cook S4s and from Zeiss I've only worked with the Zeiss Super Speeds (mainly HD with the Pro35 adapter) and the Zeiss Variable Primes.
I may be way wrong here so please correct me if I am, that's why I'm writing this. I've gotten the feeling that there might be a US/Europe divide (UK excluded perhaps) with regards to the uses of Cook vs Zeiss, the US being more Cook prone. Am I way off here?
Also, have the Master Primes really taken off yet? They're still quite new to market and I must say that I was supries by digitalfx comment that the Ultra Primes have a "far superior look" to the Master Primes. I certainly don't question it as I don't have the experience.
Very interesting thread!! As most of us realize a 4k sensor is going to need some very serious glass to really deliver all we hope for.

[Ólafur Rögnvaldsson]

Thank you guys for this excellent info.

Not many seem to have experience with the Elites. Can we hear more from those who have tried them? The specs look good, price much lower than Arris and Cooks. How would you describe the character e.t.c.
There is also a lightweight 24-80 zoom - anybody used it?

[Matt Uhry]

Hi Dappe,

I don't think there are national divides, people tend to gravitate towards and defend what they know and trust. Thinking that a different set of lenses is going to make you into a different kind of DP is like thinking a different guitar would have made Jimmy Hendrix play like Eddie Van Halen. Sure it makes a difference, but its by far the lesser part of the equation.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
DP LA IA600

[Tonaci Tran]

Hi Matt,

"Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these. "

Could you elaborate on this a little more? The Zeiss primes seem to be entry level intro into 35mm prime land. Are they that bad? if so, what didn't you like about them. The super speed 1.3s have been selling like hotcakes thanks to the mini35 adaptors...but I heard that the 2.1 provided a better image and i quote from a rental house guy (who wasn't aware of RED) "If anyone ever made an adaptor like the mini35, but without the extra stops of light lost, the standard 2.1s would become as hot as the super speeds." The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.

[Greg M]

I have only used the Master Primes one time, they are wonderful lenses. Great in low light, but very heavy...they are also extremly sharp, too sharp for my taste.

BTW did I saw "far superior"?...I meant I prefer the Ultra Primes, they are not far superior.
I use the Super Speeds very often w/ the Pro35 and recently started using the Ultra Primes since I purchased them and in my opinion they look better than the Super Speeds. In the past I always rented the Super Speeds because of the loss of light w/ the Pro35...but the last few shoots w/ the Ultra Primes, I never really missed the extra stop.

When shooting 35mm I used to only use Primo lenses and Panavision cameras or PanArri's, but since buying the Ultra Primes I have switched to Arri cameras....cant say I dont miss the Primos, but since I bought the Ultra Prime set I have nearly paid for them in less than a year in my rentals only. I refuse to rent the lenses out, I only use them for my shoots. So for me it was a very wise investment.

[Greg M]

Hi Matt,

"Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these. "

Could you elaborate on this a little more? The Zeiss primes seem to be entry level intro into 35mm prime land. Are they that bad? if so, what didn't you like about them. The super speed 1.3s have been selling like hotcakes thanks to the mini35 adaptors...but I heard that the 2.1 provided a better image and i quote from a rental house guy (who wasn't aware of RED) "If anyone ever made an adaptor like the mini35, but without the extra stops of light lost, the standard 2.1s would become as hot as the super speeds." The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.

If you can pick these up cheap, you will be pleased...obviously not in the league w/ the newer lenses, but very nice as entry level lenses. They dont look as good as the Super Speeds, but at half the cost who cares. They also have the benefit of close focus.

[Scott Webster]

The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.

And even at double the price you still can't find them for sale.

Will be interesting to see if Zeiss see a market for a set of primes pitched below the Master and Ultra series to cater for the Red market.

The 1000+ pre-orders must be a good indication of a market for them.

[Ben Feuer]

Out of all of these lenses - the Zeiss 2.1 set and the Cooke Speed Panchro (S2 and occasionally S3) seem like the only budget-realistic choices, assuming for argument's sake we want the total cost of lenses < total cost of camera.
I have yet to see a full set of Cooke Speed Panchros for sale, anywhere. In fact, does anyone know how many models of these ever existed?
Occasionally in Insync I'll see a set of Zeiss 2.1s for 10k - 15k, which is not bad. Usually it'll be 4 or 5 lenses, 28, 35, 50, 85 or the like.
Other than the aforementioned magazine, where do people look for used 35mm lenses of reliable quality?

[Tonaci Tran]

where do people look for used 35mm lenses of reliable quality?

The least risky is to buy them from a rental house. You can take them for a test run and inspect them.

Two websites I know of are:

http://visualproducts.com/store04.asp?ID=26&Cat=8&Cat2=18

Visual- they don't update their website frequently. I called months back asking about the 1.3s and they were sold.

http://www.cineused.com/equip_sale.html
Ken has been around forever. If you want something, just shoot him an email. He only deals with cash..no credit. If you want to amuse yourself, call and ask him for a set of super speed 1.3s.

[Matt Uhry]

The Cooke S2's and S3's are vintage lenses from the 1950's to the 1970's - they can be good for some kinds of retro looks they are not very contrasty... If you really need to save money and your clients don't know or care if you wander that far from industry standard, maybe try some Nikons? I think you would end up with a more modern looking image and a similar amount of inconvienences for much less money.

Still all comes down to taste.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

[Stephen Williams]

The Cooke S2's and S3's are vintage lenses from the 1950's to the 1970's -
Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com

Hi Matt,

By 1945 the SII came in focal lengths: 18, 25, 32, 40, 50 and 75mm. The 100mm, f/2.5 Deep Field Panchro was released in 1946.

The SIII is from 1950's only 18 & 25mm ever made.

Stephen.

[Mardi_Gras]

Hi Matt,

By 1945 the SII came in focal lengths: 18, 25, 32, 40, 50 and 75mm. The 100mm, f/2.5 Deep Field Panchro was released in 1946.

The SIII is from 1950's only 18 & 25mm ever made.

Stephen.


I have the SII in 32, 40, 50, 75 and the 100mm, f/2.5 Deep Field Panchro. I also have the SIII in 18 & 25mm with the Arri Standard to PL adapter mounted on them all. Beautiful and affordable 35mm prime lenses, I must say. Highly recommended!

[James Burgess]

I was gaffing a shoot on on Thursday where the DP was using the new Zeiss
ZF lenses: a 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4. Image quality and machanicals of
the lens looked and felt excellent. While these are more expensive than
used Nikkor lenses they "incorporate new technical advances from the
ZEISS Ultra Prime®, Master Prime® and DigiPrime® lenses for motion
picture cameras". [Quote from Zeiss website]

Has anyone else had any experience with this line of lenses?

[Sanjin Jukic]

I have Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 mm ZF. Tested on Nikon D50 and with the RedRock M2 adapter on Sony FX1 HDV camera, the lens performed excellent.

Original Zeiss ZF page
http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/Contents-Frame/8e8ae439a3fd6101c125711b005a77c4

Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 mm ZF test
http://www.kenrockwell.com/zeiss/zf50.htm

Read more about ZF compared with other Nikkors
Nikon 50mm Lens Comparison
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/sharpness.htm

Test by Sean Yamamoto
http://photo.net/equipment/contax/50-1.4

Editor's Choice 2006: Camera Lenses
Zeiss ZF Planar T* 85mm f/1.4
http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/2490/editors-choice-2006-camera-lenses-zeiss-zf-planar-t-85mm-f14-page4.html

[Walter R]

What about lenses by Kinoptik and Kowa. Certainly less known, but many Kinoptik lenses where made with Arri standard mounts and could be used with a PL adapter on Red.

I know some of the apochromatic lenses (50mm and 100mm) include a macro option and are very sought after by still photographers. And of course there is that famous 9.8mm used in the Shining maze scene and in much of the famous (infamous) Soy Cuba.

Any thoughts on how these might compare to Cooke Panchros or Zeiss 2.1 lenses? They are harder to find, but might they be a good option if the price is right? What is their focus throw like? And what is their "character" - contrast, color, etc.?

[James T Mather]

Hi,

Edit There are some Canon High Speed lenses, nearly as good as superspeeds but 1/3 price.

Have you a link to these Canon High speeds?

Thx

[Stephen Williams]

Have you a link to these Canon High speeds?

Thx

Hi,

Sorry I don't, they are usually known as K-35's. They were trendy in the 1980's, they were rebuilt still lenses and do breathe a bit.

Some sold on Ebay a couple of months ago, most rental houses will have a few sets collecting dust on a shelf!

Stephen

[Walter R]

Anyone have any comments on the Kinoptik or Kowa lenses? As good as the Cooke Panchros or...?

[Stephen Williams]

Anyone have any comments on the Kinoptik or Kowa lenses? As good as the Cooke Panchros or...?

Hi,

Not as good as Cooke Speed Pancre SII/III

Stephen

[Charles Papert]

Using any existing lenses on RED will likely require complete re-testing from scratch, i.e. "forget what you know". In other words, the response characteristics of a given lens when used in 35mm or even with 35mm adaptors on digital cameras may be different still when coupled to the RED sensor.

Having done a couple of shows with the Genesis, I can report that we discovered some unexpected deviations from the tried-and-true, such as particular 11-1 and 4-1 Primo zooms that had been color-matched for a previous film job not matching when used on the Genesis, and a substantially marked difference between the zooms and the Primos in sharpness (more than previously experienced). We also had some funky results with ND filters causing certain hues to shift while transmitting others without effect. And of course, diffusion filters must be extensively tested as they will have a very different effect than on film.

Again, this is based on the Genesis, which at least has the same sized sensor as the RED--but I'm sure there will still be plenty of deviation from these findings once we start to test RED.

It will be interesting to see if the older series lenses may serve to soften the super-crisp look--the idea of mating an old Cooke 10-100 zoom onto this super-modern chassis is fun!

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Now that we have B16 how do the original posters from this zombie thread feel about their early 2007 opinions and suppositions?

[doondoon]

I've heard rumors from several people that Zeiss is going to ramp up on superspeeds again. A newer version of the MKIII's.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeez Blair, where'd you dig up this thread? Hehe...

doondoon, interesting rumor. I don't see it happening though.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I don't know that much about the details of actual manufacturing of lenses, but if they already have the tooling and such to ramp up production of an old design quickly then it might make sense - I still don't believe it though.

If they did decide to start selling SuperSpeeds again there would be two big plusses beyond the T1.3 capability - they are compact and have a smooth look that suits some material very well.

For the record, I will be shocked if Zeiss starts making Speeds again.

[doondoon]

Yeah I would be surprised too. There seems to be a market though... MK111's are going for 50K and more (if you can find a set).

[Mitch Gross]

There is lead and other banned substances in the superspeed glass. EU regulations ban their use in manufacture. This is the "RoHS Compliant" labels one sees on electronics these days. Zeiss will never again manufacture the SuperSpeed design. Bad for the environment.

[Pawel Achtel]

I'm not entirely sure what to think of the RED 300MM lens and I'm planning on reserving it along with my camera though.


Jeff, Don't think about it, if you need long lens simply get it. It is razor sharp and well built. I love it. Works along my MPs like a dream.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

LOL... Damn zombie thread, I should've just locked it.

Thanks Pawel, but back when I posted that, no one had even seen a 300mm RED lens yet, that was January '07. :) At that time, the only thing we had was one of Jarred's photos and a close-up of one of the "milk girls", supposedly shot with a prototype RED 300.

But yeah, the 300mm is a nice lens. Although I now find myself holding out for the revised "pro" 300mm prime along with the rest of the upcoming RED primes.

[Tonaci Tran]

IF you are shopping for used lenses, my advice is to start now. In the next several months I predict that the prices of used 35mm lenses will go up due to demand. Reservations are around 1070ish. After NAB, this number will increase drastically, therefore, more users will be in the market looking for lenses. Of course not everyone will want to buy and not everyone can afford a cooke s4/arri master prime set. The more I researched this, the more I realize that an affordable prime lens set is sorely missing in the market..(cough cough) Jim.

hehe.. I forgot about ever writing this in 2007..sadly I was right. =( but it is a good thing the Red Primes are coming.

[Matthew Verkler]

There is lead and other banned substances in the superspeed glass. EU regulations ban their use in manufacture. This is the "RoHS Compliant" labels one sees on electronics these days. Zeiss will never again manufacture the SuperSpeed design. Bad for the environment.

Stupid environment . . . . :poster_stupid: :sarcasm:

[Matthew Verkler]

LOL... Damn zombie thread, I should've just locked it.

Thanks Pawel, but back when I posted that, no one had even seen a 300mm RED lens yet, that was January '07. :) At that time, the only thing we had was one of Jarred's photos and a close-up of one of the "milk girls", supposedly shot with a prototype RED 300.

But yeah, the 300mm is a nice lens. Although I now find myself holding out for the revised "pro" 300mm prime along with the rest of the upcoming RED primes.

Yeah, the new 300 looks really sexy. But I don't think you can go wrong with the current 300 if you don't want to wait. Really great lens. Love it love it love it.

[Mitch Gross]

Has anyone ever checked the RED 300mm to see if it really is a 300mm focal length? It's a mathematically straightforward process to determine if the field of view is that of a 300mm instead of, say 290 or 320. I ask 'cause the 18-50 ain't 18-50. They vary, but for the most part what I've seen is usually more like 17.2 to 48.

Just sayin'....

[Robert Horwell]

Out of all of these lenses - the Zeiss 2.1 set and the Cooke Speed Panchro (S2 and occasionally S3) seem like the only budget-realistic choices, assuming for argument's sake we want the total cost of lenses < total cost of camera.
I have yet to see a full set of Cooke Speed Panchros for sale, anywhere. In fact, does anyone know how many models of these ever existed?
Occasionally in Insync I'll see a set of Zeiss 2.1s for 10k - 15k, which is not bad. Usually it'll be 4 or 5 lenses, 28, 35, 50, 85 or the like.
Other than the aforementioned magazine, where do people look for used 35mm lenses of reliable quality?

I have a set of Cooke SII/III lenses. re-housed by century optics. I love them, i use them on my RED and they blow me away every time i use them. We are currently shooting a feature on them. There are a few sets here in the U.K incirculation at rental houses and they are always without fail out on hire...that tells me something about these lovely lenses.