Successes or failures with B4 Mount

[johannperry]

As someone who is still shooting with 2/3in zoom lenses I would love to hear of peoples experiences using the PL to B4 mount with 2/3 inch HD zoom lenses, if indeed anyone is using this setup to shoot 2k.
Is there any test footage available using the B4 Mount?
As we are going to be waiting for some time for all Red lenses to become available I need to gauge whether it is worth putting my canon HJ22 and HJ11 on the front of my red for a while until the lenses become available.
Sorry if I am repeating earlier threads but I can't find any info.

[johannperry]

:innocent: Anyone.................?

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Johann,

The B4 adaptor absorbts 1 stop. The already not really light-sensitive RED will have with the B4 adaptor just about 160 ASA. An F 900R has approx. 640 ASA...

2K is pretty noisy and surely not better than pictures one gets with a F 900R or even a HDW 750.

IMHO, the strengths of the RED is its compliants with 35mm lenses, DOF etc... Using a B4 adaptor will annul this.

Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

I forgot to mentioned that the B4 adaptor does also magnify the field of view a bit, meaningn that your widenangle ENG zoom turns on RED into a "normal" everyday lens.

I never shot a project with B4 adaptor since I find it rather unattractive. Instead I use for docu work a S16 zoom in 3K modus. To get rid of vignetting the picture has to be cropped a bit later in REDCine.

Hans

Hans

[Justin McAleece]

How exactly is 2k 'noisy' i don't find that to be true at all. using adapters and light loss etc... might be a bad idea, but I think 2k is perfectly useable. my high speed stuff is almost indistiguishable at 1080P (what either of those 2 cameras tops out at)

[Steve Phillipps]

I really don't see the appeal of using B4 lenses. You lose light, you're bound to lose some quality with the extra optic in the way, you lose a little of the wide end. And to my mind the video lenses are cheap and nasty feeling compared to good cine and stills lenses.
Steve

[johannperry]

I really don't see the appeal of using B4 lenses. You lose light, you're bound to lose some quality with the extra optic in the way, you lose a little of the wide end. And to my mind the video lenses are cheap and nasty feeling compared to good cine and stills lenses.
I agree with you that video lenses do not have the quality feel of a cine lens. The real question I was asking was not whether they are preferable to 35mm but whether Canon HD zoom lenses work efficiently enough with a Red's B4 adaptor to be acceptable for most broadcast work based on other users current experience?
My red zooms won't be available for many months after the camera ships so I need a workable alternative.

I'm a documentary cameraman and mostly shoot on my HDX900 and Canon HD zooms.

[Steve Phillipps]

I can only speculate here as I haven't tried it, but I think you'd get better results by getting hold of a S16 zoom like a Zeiss 10:100 or Canon 11-138. They can be picked up for maybe £2-3000, don't know how much the B4 adapter is but I guess it'd getting up somewhere near that?
Best wishes,
Steve

[Gunleik Groven]

Gibby has done this. PM him

[johannperry]

I have thought about that option, as the B4 adaptor is $3500 and I think that is a pretty good idea. The other option obviously would be to track down a set of super speeds and be off straight away although by all accounts they are being snapped up at an alarming rate by other red users.

[johannperry]

Gibby has done this. PM him
Thanks, gunleik, I did PM him a few days back but I guess he's tied up at the moment, no response as yet.
I've been loving your pictures by the way, really beautiful images.

[Gunleik Groven]

Thanks a lot!

Still working on the whole "fieldtest" series, but have to get some real work out the door, too...

It will eventually come, though.

[johannperry]

I'm snowed under with old fashioned real work with my current HD kit so I need to be able to work with my Red in a similar way. Having looked at one at a rental company I have quite a bit of head scratching to do to make that work for my current client base. Thats why it would be great to speak with Gibby as he seems to be leading the way with convergence of shooting styles.
I'm sure plenty of real work will be coming your way soon with pictures like those.

[Mitch Gross]

Abel has one of these adapters available for rental for only $50/day. It's a cheap way to get out there and test for yourself. We've sent it out for a few Red jobs already so it can't be such a terrible option. And it certainly does not cut one stop of light -- more like a 1/4 stop.

[johannperry]

Thanks Mitch,
do you have contact details of clients who have used it so I can get some feedback?

[laguun]

Abel has one of these adapters available for rental for only $50/day. It's a cheap way to get out there and test for yourself. We've sent it out for a few Red jobs already so it can't be such a terrible option. And it certainly does not cut one stop of light -- more like a 1/4 stop.

we are considering one, especially for our angenieux 7.8-406mm zooms. 1800 grams, F2.2, extender, one of the most versatile lenses out there.

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Johann,

I've been on a heavy work schedule and just saw your PM. Here's my suggestions on B4 2/3" HD lenses with RED ONE:

You can find extensive info on B4 lens use and other EFP topics by visiting the “EFP/ENG with RED” forum here on RED User:

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

My background and history
I have a deep background in mobile, non-hardlined EFP production, so I was the early beta tester for the RED B4 adaptor - way back last Summer. I have owned the RED B4 adaptor since August of last year and used it extensively. BTW - I’ve also shot extensively in 4k and 3k with 35mm cine lenses and 35mm still lenses on RED ONE.

RED B4 adaptor
The RED B4 adaptor is well made and the glass in it is very good. To use B4 2/3” HD lenses on RED ONE you need this adaptor for two reasons: 1) B4 lenses are designed for use with 3-chip cameras that use a prism. To use them with a single CMOS camera an adaptor is necessary. 2) B4 lenses will cover 1080p, but RED ONE’s lowest resolution is 2k. 2k is 6% larger than 1080p, thus the RED B4 adaptor spreads the image the additional 6% so the B4 lenses cover 2k. Again, I’ve found the RED B4 adaptor to be optically very good, and it doesn’t induce significant artifacts. Light loss is minimal.

B4 lenses in general
You’ll find there are two types: cine and EFP/ENG zooms. You’ll need the B4 adaptor for using either of those types on RED ONE. B4 lenses vary in size and quality – as usual you get what you pay for.


B4 lenses in my kit
I have two B4 HD EFP/ENG zooms in my RED ONE kit: Fujinon 22x7.3, and Fujinon 13x4.5. Both are excellent lenses that I also use on our Sony F900R. The 22x is a $40k USD lens, and the 13x is a $32k USD lens, and IMO they are two of the finest HD EFP/ENG zooms available. The glass in them is excellent, as is the workmanship of the lenses themselves.


Other B4 lenses I shot with on RED ONE
Canon 40x and Fujinon 42x9.7, with excellent results. These are both very high end B4 EFP/ENG zooms. I have not used any cine style B4 lenses on RED ONE, but they use basically the same, or very similar glass as the EFP/ENG zooms, except they obviously don’t have a servo motor attached.

Usage on RED ONE
Along with the RED B4 adaptor, I have also had for several months a beta version of the RED adaptor cable that connects the hirose connector of the B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zooms to the RS232/12v bus on the side of RED ONE – thus enabling powered zooming with the lenses, and use of the record button on the lens servo. Along with that, I have owned a RED EVF for five months now, thus the form factor of my RED ONE cameras when in EFP setup mode is very close to the form factor of a traditional EFP/ENG camcorder. The camera in that setup, with the Fujinon 13x, EVF, and RED Drive is around 24 pounds – very similar to a traditional EFP/ENG camcorder.

Footage results
As noted above, I’ve shot with B4 setups on RED ONE with what I consider to be the best EFP lenses made. That helps the look of my footage, as you might expect. 2k footage shot on RED ONE, when debayered, comes out at around 1.6k. The B4 adaptor, with its added glass, softens the images a bit, but everyone who has seen the footage I’ve shot with those setups has liked it very much. Is it as crisp as footage shot using those same lenses on our F900R – not quite, but reasonably close. Is it perfectly suited for HDTV acquisition and high-end business media production. IMO yes. Multiple clients of mine have been very satisfied with the 2k footage I’ve delivered to them using my high-end EFP/ENG zooms on RED ONE. I had about 12 shot sequences in the “Shot on RED” production edited by Plaster City that screened in the RED NAB booth this year. Of those, several were shot in 4k using the RED 18-50 and RED 300mm, some were shot in 4k and 3k using 35mm still lenses with PL mount conversions, but at least two of my shot sequences were shot in 2k using the RED B4 adaptor, and a Fujinon 22x7.3 HD EFP/ENG zoom. Through Mammoth HD, my footage screened in a total of 16 different booths at NAB this year – and a significant number of those screening shots were B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zoom originated. Beyond the tons of 4k and 3k shots I have on Mammoth HD RED Library as stock footage, which were shot with cine and 35mm still lenses, I also have a large amount of 2k-originated footage in that library which was shot with the Fujinon 22x7.3 and Fujinon 13x4.5 HD EFP/ENG zooms. Mammoth HD has been quite happy with the look and production values of that footage. One of those footage sequences licensed out just last week to a happy HDTV client.

Summary
Is the use of B4 lenses a viable option on RED ONE. Definitely, depending of course on the needs of your production. Does the “look and feel” of B4 originated footage from RED ONE match that from dedicated 2/3” high-end camcorders? Not quite, but it is close, plus you have the flexibility of shooting RAW. Should someone buy a RED ONE solely just to use their 2/3” lenses and shoot just 2K. IMO no – they should also use 35mm cine and 35mm still lenses on RED ONE and shoot 4k and 3k – why not maximize the utility of the camera. Should someone rush out and buy 2/3” lenses just to use on RED ONE? It depends on your finances and the genres you usually shoot in. If you don’t do a lot of 2/3” production, you should probably just rent the RED B4 adaptor and B4 lenses when you specifically need them for a project. I'm sure Mitch Gross at Abel Cine Tech, or your local rental house, would hook you up with what you need to rent.

I hope this info helps you Johann. I was an invited attendee to the first RED ONE camera specification meeting at Oakley in December 2005. Each of us attendees submitted comprehensive lists of tech suggestions for the new camera. Mine were equally balanced between cine-style and EFP-style suggestions. I’ve believed from the very beginning that RED ONE should be, and would be, a flexible, scalable, and highly utilitarian camera system. It definitely is – but unfortunately many owners/users of RED ONE fail to maximize the camera’s potential. I like to maximize it...

[Ken Willinger]

I've just received my camera last Friday and have had to be away on a job (non Red) since it arrived, so I've had about a day to play with it. Though I plan to get the 18-85 I currently only have B4 mount lenses which like you, I plan to use for documentary work. In the day or so that I had to experiment I had my Fujinon HD 13X4.5 wide angle broadcast zoom lens along with an Optex B4 to PL mount adapter attached to the camera and I can attest that it works great and looks beautiful. I saw no noticeable loss in its field of view. It looks fabulous.

I also tested this set-up on a friends Red a few weeks ago. He was using a Cooke 20 - 100 at 4K. Then we put on the B4 lens at 2K. It still looked great though we've not yet put the 2 shots back to back on the edit system. But you should know that the B4 option works and as Gibby has shown, is viable. I plan to use it fairly extensively in my documentary work, which has aired regularly on PBS nationally as well many national cable outlets. I have no qualms about it.

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks Mitch,
do you have contact details of clients who have used it so I can get some feedback?

Sorry but it is not my right to distribute client information in this way. If anyone chooses to share then that is their choice. Next time someone rents it for a RED (that I know about -- a lot goes on every day) I'll ask if they wish to report. But I think Gibby's report is pretty accurate. We recently did some testing with it on a Phantom and the optical quality is very nice. It was originally designed for putting B4 mount lenses on Super-16 film cameras, and I've seen that model all the way out to a film print and it looked excellent.

Like I said, $50/day at Abel. Easy to test. It's in our new catalog next to the RED accessory rental bundles.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Summary
Is the use of B4 lenses a viable option on RED ONE. Definitely, depending of course on the needs of your production. Does the “look and feel” of B4 originated footage from RED ONE match that from dedicated 2/3” high-end camcorders? Not quite, but it is close, plus you have the flexibility of shooting RAW. Should someone buy a RED ONE solely just to use their 2/3” lenses and shoot just 2K. IMO no – they should also use 35mm cine and 35mm still lenses on RED ONE and shoot 4k and 3k – why not maximize the utility of the camera. Should someone rush out and buy 2/3” lenses just to use on RED ONE? It depends on your finances and the genres you usually shoot in. If you don’t do a lot of 2/3” production, you should probably just rent the RED B4 adaptor and B4 lenses when you specifically need them for a project. I'm sure Mitch Gross at Abel Cine Tech, or your local rental house, would hook you up with what you need to rent.


Hi Gibby,

Spot on! I fully underline your summary. REDone can be very versatile, yet B4 2/3 is not its sweetest spot... If one seeks a cam for exclusive HD ENG zoom usage, there are better suited cams that give even better pictures. On one thing we differ: I found the B4 definately absorbing a visible amount of light. We all know that REDs light sensitivity is not its biggest asset. B4 is for docu people and they (I) need as much light sensitivity as possible. 2K cannot be pushed in this regard as 4K can. 2K is prone to noise.

Someone who is used to the light sensitivity and sleek ergonomics of a current high end HD camcorder will be disappointed when using RED.
As you said, you own a F900R and that has a reason...

Hans

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

Spot on! I fully underline your summary. REDone can be very versatile, yet B4 2/3 is not its sweetest spot... If one seeks a cam for exclusive HD ENG zoom usage, there are better suited cams that give even better pictures. On one thing we differ: I found the B4 definately absorbing a visible amount of light. We all know that REDs light sensitivity is not its biggest asset. B4 is for docu people and they (I) need as much light sensitivity as possible. 2K cannot be pushed in this regard as 4K can. 2K is prone to noise.

Someone who is used to the light sensitivity and sleek ergonomics of a current high end HD camcorder will be disappointed when using RED.
As you said, you own a F900R and that has a reason...

Hans

Thanks Hans..

In my experience the light loss using the RED B4 adaptor is minimal. Also in my extended experience with 2k on RED, if it is shot correctly, noise really isn't an issue. The 2k footage I've shot with RED ONE using the RED B4 adaptor and 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms is clean and crisp. When the 2k RC RAW files are given a good curve and color corrected, they intercut very well with footage from our F900.

When we have our RED ONE cameras in a hand held in EFP setup, with our Fujinon 13x4.5, RED EVF, Element Technica EVF mount, B4 to RS232/12v power cable, ET aluminum top rods (12"), and RED Drive, the ergonomics, form factor, size, and weight of the rig are almost identical to our F900 - plus we have the post versatility of shooting in RAW. RED ONE can make a very capable long-form programming camera (docos, etc.) with that setup. The major difference between the F900 and our EFP setup RED ONE, is that after the shooting is finished we can quickly breakdown RED ONE, and re-lens and re-accessorize it for straight cine-style production, and then shoot 4k and 3k. Can't do that with the F900. Naturally with RED we have to back up r3d files each night, but IMO that's the small price we pay for the added versatility and creative options of shooting RAW.

The 4k and 3k footage we've shot, obviously using 35mm cine or 35mm still lenses, when down-sampled to 1080p ProRes 422 HQ, looks better than the B4 originated 2k down-sampled to 1080p ProRes 422 HQ, but then that's to be expected. But even then, the 2k corrected properly will intercut with the down-sampled 4k and 3k for certain applications. As mentioned in my previous post, two of my B4 originated 2k shots were intercut with several of the 4k shots by myself and others in the "Shot on RED" piece that was screened in the RED NAB tent this year.

I am used to the light sensitivity of high-end HD EFP/ENG cameras and their sleek ergonomics, and I've been using RED ONE setup in EFP mode as described above, off and on for eight months now - and no, I'm not disappointed in RED ONE's EFP setup capability and performance at all.

For the several doco-style television programs and feature we're producing right now, we're using seven RED ONE cameras, one Sony HDC1500, One Sony F900R, and two Sony EX1. We own a CineFlex gimbal system, and several custom water housings, for RED ONE and the EX1. We use each camera system for what it does best - like painters with a set of paint brushes. With the announcement of EPIC and Scarlet, the F900R will be sold, and I expect our camera kits next year to consist of: eight EPIC, four RED ONE, ten Scarlet, and one Sony HDC1500 (because it works in our CineFlex).

[Stuart English]

Is it as crisp as footage shot using those same lenses on our F900R – not quite, but reasonably close. Is it perfectly suited for HDTV acquisition and high-end business media production. IMO yes.

Also bear in mind that the RED-ONE records the images with no Sharpness added. For HDTV use you can ( and should ) add some in post.

Shooting RED-ONE in 2K is not exactly the same as shooting on an F900 with Detail OFF, but that would be a lot closer...

[johannperry]

Summary
Is the use of B4 lenses a viable option on RED ONE. Definitely, depending of course on the needs of your production. Does the “look and feel” of B4 originated footage from RED ONE match that from dedicated 2/3” high-end camcorders? Not quite, but it is close, plus you have the flexibility of shooting RAW. Should someone buy a RED ONE solely just to use their 2/3” lenses and shoot just 2K. IMO no – they should also use 35mm cine and 35mm still lenses on RED ONE and shoot 4k and 3k – why not maximize the utility of the camera. Should someone rush out and buy 2/3” lenses just to use on RED ONE? It depends on your finances and the genres you usually shoot in. If you don’t do a lot of 2/3” production, you should probably just rent the RED B4 adaptor and B4 lenses when you specifically need them for a project. I'm sure Mitch Gross at Abel Cine Tech, or your local rental house, would hook you up with what you need to rent.

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond so comprehensively to my query. As always your post has been a huge help to me, and very encouraging being based on some solid real life experience.
I was interested to hear that you EFP Red setup was ergonomically pleasing as I had got concerns about handheld work with it for prolonged periods after playing with one for a few hours.
So this leads me to another question;
are you more tired with your Red EFP setup or the F900 on your shoulder for a couple of hours?

Many thanks again
Johann

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond so comprehensively to my query. As always your post has been a huge help to me, and very encouraging being based on some solid real life experience.
I was interested to hear that you EFP Red setup was ergonomically pleasing as I had got concerns about handheld work with it for prolonged periods after playing with one for a few hours.
So this leads me to another question;
are you more tired with your Red EFP setup or the F900 on your shoulder for a couple of hours?

Many thanks again
Johann

Glad to help Johann…

My RED EFP setup (with Fujinon 13x4.5) weighs close to the same as the F900R with the same lens attached. With both cameras for shoulder held shooting I use a Filmtools Camera Comfort Cushion. It is a simple, inexpensive shoulder pad that has cross straps to keep it in place on your shoulder. In a full day of shoulder held shooting trapezius muscle cramps can be a problem. This simple shoulder pad is light, comfortable, and keeps your shoulder from getting sore.

Link: http://www.filmtools.com/camera-comfort-cushion-com.html

I work hard at staying in good physical condition so I can get the type of mobile shots I do. I’m 6’1” and 200 lbs, so hand holding large cameras all day long isn’t a problem for me – high angles, low angles, and shoulder held.

To me, with RED ONE in a lightweight mobile setup, running and gunning all day with it hand held, feels the same ergonomically as any other large sized EFP camcorder.

[johannperry]

To me, with RED ONE in a lightweight mobile setup, running and gunning all day with it hand held, feels the same ergonomically as any other large sized EFP camcorder.
As someone who has spent a considerable amount of the last 10 years with a large hunk of metal and glass on my right shoulder that is very good to hear.