Canon HV20 for cutaways, B roll, etc...?

[Tom Lowe]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/481076.jpg

The Canon HV20 HDV Camcorder brings the power of professional level HD recording to the consumer at a price that won't break the bank. The HV20 captures images in genuine HD resolution of 1920 x 1080, so you are shooting in real HDTV, all on a mini HDV tape. One of the biggest features this camera brings to the consumer camcorder market is the ability to capture in 24p, the same frame rate used in movie film.

Canon improves upon the standard CCD camcorders by using a 1/2.7" CMOS sensor to generate images. The 2.96MP CMOS sensor tends to process faster than a CCD for richer color and sharper detail. When you add a Canon Optics HD lens, 10x optical zoom and a DV II processor you get ultra-sharp color and incredible detail even from a distance. In order to ensure you get the highest possible video quality and picture Canon added an HDMI output and hot shoe terminal to the HV20.

As impressive as the HV20 is as a camcorder, it gets even better as a 3.1 megapixel digital still camera. Store images on tiny HC Mini-SD memory cards with the Mini-SD card slot. The optical image stabilizer and advanced AF auto focus make it easy to get crisp clean video and photos. Choosing and using the enhanced features such as Smooth Zoom Zebra Pattern and Level Shot Control, are easy thanks to the 2.7" LCD screen.

Canon fit everything you can ask from a camcorder in the HV20, all in a body that fits comfortably in your pocket. Now if they could only develop a "remove 10 pounds feature"...


Key Features

• 1/2.7" 2.96MP True HD CMOS Sensor (1920 x 1080)


Canon improves upon the standard CCD camcorders by using a CMOS sensor to generate images. The 2.9MP CMOS Sensor tends to process faster than a CCD for richer color and sharper detail.

• 24p Cinema Mode


You can change the camcorder's frame rate to 24p, which is the same frame rate as professional movie film.
The HV20 also offers Playback of 60i, 30F, 24F and 24p video.

• HD 1920 x 1080

The HV20 captures true 1080 High Definition resolution video in 16:9 format, using MiniDV cassette tapes.

• HDMI Output

Many consumer products are adopting High Definition Media Interface (HDMI) connections for transmitting uncompressed digital HD video and audio signals. Canon has upped the ante by incorporating this into the already extensive array of video output choices on the HV20. Simply hook the camera up to your HDTV via this interface and view all your footage the way it was meant to be seen: purely digital!

• DIGIC DV ll Processor

Thanks to DIGIC DV II image processing, the HV20 produces video with improved color reproduction ideal for skin tones, and dark and light scenes. It also uses a noise reduction system that uses two types of noise reduction, for HD images that are crystal clear.

• Instant AF (Auto Focus)

The Instant AF feature uses an external sensor, together with Canon's auto-focus system, to help significantly decrease the time it takes to find the focus, even in low light conditions. This system achieves focus instantaneously, eliminating the struggle needed to find the correct focus.

• Hot Shoe

Plug an accessory (microphone, light, etc.) into the HV20's advanced accessory shoe and the camcorder will immediately provide it with power.

• Optical Image Stabilizer (OIS)

While a digital image stabilizer compensates for shaking by adjusting the picture frame by frame, an Optical Image Stabilizer (OIS) avoids the shaking before the image is captured. OIS uses a a floating lens element that is moved relative to the rest of the lens, to maintain a balanced picture

• Variable Zoom Speed Control

How often have you watched a home video and gotten motion sickness when the zoom goes from 0 to 60 in 1/10 seconds? The Variable Zoom Speed Control maintains the speed of your zoom so that everything looks smooth and professional.

• Level and Grid Markers

Not sure if your shot of the sunset over the New York skyline is actually level? The Level marker places a horizontal line across your screen so you can make sure your shooting at the perfect angle.


So what am I missing? This seems to be a pretty impressive camera for around a thousand bucks. The resolution, it would seem, is better than the HVX, which costs five times as much. It's got a full-res 1080p native CMOS sensor.

What are downsides? Say I wanted to use a camera like this to shoot nature and landscape shots. DOF is not an issue (the more the better), and I don't need variable framerate for that stuff. Is the compression the killer? Could you record to an external device uncompressed via HDMI? What kind of device?

thanks

[donatello b]

HDV !!!! ... MPEG 2 !!!!! GOP's !!!!
i think over at DVinfo they have comparision shots of it and other camera's .... for $1000 it look good ... i might consider it for my next holiday camera ...

[Hrvoje Simic]

1/2.7" sensor + HDV artifacts
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?&u=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm[/URL]

Improved low light sensitivity of 3 lux from HV10's 5 is achieved by noise reduction, instead of making the larger sensor. That just can't give you professional quality results.

[Bruce Allen]

Could you record to an external device uncompressed via HDMI? What kind of device?
Yes. Best bang for the buck would be a small-form-factor PC with a $250 Blackmagic Intensity card, going through a long HDMI cable. Storage would be either uncompressed to a mini RAID array inside the Small-Form-Factor PC (you can fit 3 drives in some SFF PCs), or using Cineform compression, or using Blackmagic's high-bitrate JPEG codec.

Note that you could potentially combine this with a sound card with digital inputs and get true 192khz / 24bit sound from an outboard mixer / preamp recording to your SFF PC at the same time. Better sound quality than the Red by far, that way.

Second note: as far as I know, even though the sensor on the HV20 is 1920x1080, the HDMI output is 1440x1080 blown back up to 1920x1080 (eg they scale down as part of the pre-stage where they also do white balance, sharpening, etc). Also, AFAIK, it is 8 bit. I have offered beers to the people with HV20s on the hdvinfo forum if they feel like sending some test chart grabs, etc from HDMI, HDV, component, etc to see if we can pin this down.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

1/2.7" sensor + HDV artifacts
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?&u=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm[/URL]

Improved low light sensitivity of 3 lux from HV10's 5 is achieved by noise reduction, instead of making the larger sensor. That just can't give you professional quality results.

Very true! Although since the camera is only $1000, you could probably buy / rent a stack of lights. Even if you're shooting outdoors, you could buy a really nice quiet generator or some powerful sunguns. And when you're ready to upgrade to the Red, you'd have your lighting kit already paid for.

Bear in mind also that there's nothing stopping you from putting a $1000 35mm adapter (eg SGPro or Brevis) on your $1000 HV20 and then you can use those lenses, follow focus, etc that you were going to use on the Red too. Of course that does lose you another stop of light. But hey, now you have money to buy that Nikon 17-35mm 2.8!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Tom Lowe]

Bruce, thanks for the info. Sounds like the bottleneck is the HDMI output only doing "anamorphic 1080" at 1440 vertical lines? That's a dealbreaker right there for me, because you'd be killing the 1920 native advantage this camera seems to offer.

I saw this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89673) about an HD-SDI adapter, but that wouldn't work in ths case, right? Because the HDMI port would be the bottleneck/lowest common denominator?

So 8bit is what the HVX does when using cineform's Aspect HD, right? I guess 10- or 12bit is the real goal?

You know, I'm wondering why someone doesn't just pull a CMOS chip out of a DLSR and make a simple 1080p camera out of it with Dual Link HD-SDI outputs that could record to a nearby computer or something. Is there any reason this could not be done? Maybe the sensor isn't fast enough?

[Bruce Allen]

Well, HDMI supports 10-bit but the camera only outputs 8 bit.

1440 4:4:4 still gives you higher spatial resolution than what George Lucas and Rodriguez made major films on.

CMOS chips from DSLRs don't have the fps yet. But they are getting close - eg canon's 10fps 10 megapixel EOS-1D Mark III.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Tom Lowe]

Well, HDMI supports 10-bit but the camera only outputs 8 bit.

1440 4:4:4 still gives you higher spatial resolution than what George Lucas and Rodriguez made major films on.

CMOS chips from DSLRs don't have the fps yet. But they are getting close - eg canon's 10fps 10 megapixel EOS-1D Mark III.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

If you only tried to pull low-res 1920x1080 frames off an EOS-1D Mark III's sensor, couldn't it do that?

[Bruce Allen]

If you only tried to pull low-res 1920x1080 frames off an EOS-1D Mark III's sensor, couldn't it do that?

With some modification, I would think you wouild be able to. I am no sensor expert, but I think it that there are certain things that sensors for still cameras with shutters don't have to worry about - I think the readout method is subtly different since they don't have to pull off a continuous image and can do some kind of sensor purge / reset / blanking thing as a result of the mechanical shutter. Also, I think there is a slightly greater variation allowable from frame to frame.

Some consumer digicams can do 1280x768 movies now, and of course there's the crossovers (Sanyo HD1, etc)... take a look at this, some nut mounted a HD1 to a RedRock M2! Love the elastic band...
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=1906&d=1169988873

His footage (posted in another forum) is not bad, actually, considering how much the HD1's picture sucks to begin with...
http://www.redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2961

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Thomas Mathai]

Bruce, thanks for the info. Sounds like the bottleneck is the HDMI output only doing "anamorphic 1080" at 1440 vertical lines? That's a dealbreaker right there for me, because you'd be killing the 1920 native advantage this camera seems to offer.

I saw this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89673) about an HD-SDI adapter, but that wouldn't work in ths case, right? Because the HDMI port would be the bottleneck/lowest common denominator?

So 8bit is what the HVX does when using cineform's Aspect HD, right? I guess 10- or 12bit is the real goal?

You know, I'm wondering why someone doesn't just pull a CMOS chip out of a DLSR and make a simple 1080p camera out of it with Dual Link HD-SDI outputs that could record to a nearby computer or something. Is there any reason this could not be done? Maybe the sensor isn't fast enough?

It's a $1100 camera, there's got to be some limitations.

This'll be a killer first camera or crashcam

[Stephen Gentle]

Why do they keep talking about "True 1080 HD" with this camera? HDV can only do 1440 lines, can't it?

[Petr Dvorak]

You know, I'm wondering why someone doesn't just pull a CMOS chip out of a DLSR and make a simple 1080p camera out of it with Dual Link HD-SDI outputs that could record to a nearby computer or something. Is there any reason this could not be done? Maybe the sensor isn't fast enough?


Or why someone doesn't just pull a CMOS chip out of a HV20? Its video chip already. Or try it Andromedas way, "simply" hack HV20.

[Emanuel A.]

1/2.7" sensor + HDV artifacts
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?&u=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070207/zooma294.htm[/URL]

Improved low light sensitivity of 3 lux from HV10's 5 is achieved by noise reduction, instead of making the larger sensor. That just can't give you professional quality results.But this is a palmcorder! Where do you find a better palmcorder deal?

[Jeremy Hughes]

You know, I'm wondering why someone doesn't just pull a CMOS chip out of a DLSR and make a simple 1080p camera out of it with Dual Link HD-SDI outputs that could record to a nearby computer or something. Is there any reason this could not be done? Maybe the sensor isn't fast enough?

The sensor would become way too hot and you'd get a very noisy picture. But the 1920x1080 area... Hmm... You mean like how the RED ONE can capture in 120fps with a S16mm sized sensor area? CMOS sensors are like that.

Found a thread at Photo.Net (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00EKLR), about turning a DSLR into a 2K video camera. They say it can't be done. The bandwidth is too slow. I wonder if it could work if you use a CCD? Like on a D2X? Since they're analog. Be very noisy though.

Maybe, you could get a prism or something to spit the light, not into different colours, but just split it equally, into eight different beams, take eight Nikon D40 sensors, since they can take a burst at 3fps for continuous ammount of time, then have a special way of having them all come on in between each other? Like pixel shifting but instead: frame shifting.

It just wouldn't be simple and would be better to get a RED ONE. Seems the people at Photo.Net solved their problems like that too! :biggrin:

[Graeme Nattress]

CMOS is set up to easily allow you to read a smaller section of the sensor at higher speed. CCD doesn't work like that.

As for CCD being analogue - that's a very poor way of looking at things. The major difference between the CMOS and CCD is that the A-to-D converters are on the CMOS chip itself, hence the signal that leaves the chip is digital. With a CCD you have a separate A-to-D chip, so the singnal that leaves the CCD is analogue.

In both cases, as they both have an A-to-D, there is an analogue stage from the point where the charge is built up in the pixels and read out, to the conversion to digital.

Some people I've heard say because CCD is analogue, it's like it doesn't have resolution and you can digitize at higher resolutions than the pixel count and that is meant to "work". Well, both are sampled systems (from the pixel array) and hence both obey the rules of sampling theorem.

Graeme

[Ken K]

Any of you who are interested in picking up an HV20, now might be a good time. Both Best Buy and Circuit City are selling this for $967.99 through their websites, which also allow you to pick up at the store.

It's tempting, but nothing I *need*. :shifty:

[Desert Rune]

Tom, thanks for the link. The features look great for the price. I may buy this instead of the Red One. :w00t:

[Jeremy Hughes]

Improved low light sensitivity of 3 lux from HV10's 5 is achieved by noise reduction, instead of making the larger sensor. That just can't give you professional quality results.

I thought it was the fact it was 24p and could use lower shutter speeds. No? I heard though it uses the noise reduction technology from Canon's digital EOS cameras.

http://www.fiftv.com/Alligator.m2tX Here's a clip of an Alligator, shot by Barry Green. Just save it as without the X.

[Tom Lowe]

hhmmm.. definitely some problems with the motion encoding, huh?

Still not bad for a camera under a grand. If you were shooting landscapes without much motion it might not be bad.

[Jason Murphy]

I shot a short project last year using a Sony A1U, which has image quality similar to the HV20 (though the HV20 apparently does significantly better in lower light). Sunlit exteriors can look pretty fantastic; the motion encoding only really becomes problematic in areas of high contrast, detail and movement (all at once), or very low light/noisy images.

Had a number of shots with sunlight reflecting off of flowing water; although the shots ended up looking very good overall, the motion artifacting off of the highlights was pretty bad. Breezy foliage can also be a pain too. (And don't even think about greenscreen/keying an HDV image if you can avoid it. Nightmare waiting to happen there.)

Actually went to Best Buy to test out an HV20 the other day, and got one of the people working there to hook it up via an HDMI cable to a 60" LCoS display. It showed up some noise in very low light shots, but overall, the image looked good; REALLY good if you consider that it's a $1000 camcorder.

Those of you (like myself) who compose through a viewfinder beware, though: this may be the single worst viewfinder I've ever seen on a camcorder. If not, it ranks up there.

Otherwise, it's an interesting little camera. It would be pretty great for stealth/low profile work, and the 24p option is pretty nice, too (though IIRC, it still is essentially a 60i camera, so you could get probably get equally good 24P out of shooting 60i footage on another HDV camera and using a plugin to make 24 frames. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong about this one, though).

[Álex Montoya]

You seen this?

Shot with the HV20, a brevis adapter and captured with the blackmagic card.

http://www.cinevate.com/images/brevisonice.wmv

[Tom Lowe]

You seen this?

Shot with the HV20, a brevis adapter and captured with the blackmagic card.

http://www.cinevate.com/images/brevisonice.wmv

Wow I have to say, this looks fantastic. Very cinematic. Are you saying it was shot tethered?

[Álex Montoya]

I think so. I believe that more details are to be found in the brevis forum.

[Ace]

I think so. I believe that more details are to be found in the brevis forum.

Farout, hard to believe this is coming from a 950$ cam. I guess the DOF does all the work though.

[Tom Lowe]

I think so. I believe that more details are to be found in the brevis forum.

So if I understand you, there is an uncompressed signal coming out of the camera and recording to a PC? Or is this simply footage recorded to the onboard tape? Where is the forum?

[Jeremy Hughes]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=93986

[Jance Allen]

Am I seeing interlacing artifacts at the end? Step through the last shot and look at the moving branches and the moving shadow on the tree trunk. Fps shows 23.96 in Quicktime. Hmmm. Just wondering.

[Bruce Allen]

So if I understand you, there is an uncompressed signal coming out of the camera and recording to a PC? Or is this simply footage recorded to the onboard tape? Where is the forum?

Not tethered. That is after HDV compression. They digitized using HDMI because it makes the 3:2 workflow easier.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Zak Forsman]

here's some test footage I shot a few weeks ago with the HV20. imo, this camera is not suitable for narrative filmmaking... at all. it macroblocks to hell, and geometry suffers on side-to-side movement. but I bought this specifically for shooting behind the scenes b-roll and interviews to document the making of the feature I'm shooting in October.

btw, this footage was acquired via a Brevis35 with CineFuse 1, a 50mm f/1.2, an ND9 and a polarizer stacked on as well.

http://www.sabipictures.com/heartofnow/vx/HV20Brevis_test3.mov

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9166/hv20brevistest5ub4.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7800/hv20brevistest4dy2.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4205/hv20brevistest3hk7.jpg

[Michael Schrengohst]

It is still HDV and that is the nature of the beast. It might be good for my vacation.

[Álex Montoya]

But the HDV can be avoided with the Blackmagic. IMO it is a good option for low budget short films. And the distortion seems to be inherent of the CMOS sensors...

[Tom Lowe]

But the HDV can be avoided with the Blackmagic.

Please explain.

[Álex Montoya]

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/02/dv-rebel-crash-cam.html

[Jeremy Hughes]

It has a pre-compression HDMI output. I think it's still 4:2:0 1440x1080 though. I'm not sure. But I know they still adjust the contrast, sharpness and saturation.

EDIT: Post number 200! 269 at DVXuser. I'm catching up!

[Tom Lowe]

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/02/dv-rebel-crash-cam.html

Okay, I went to this link, but....?

So was this guy shooting to a PC instead of onboard to a tape? What are the "true" specs on what is coming off that HDMI port?

[Bruce Allen]

Tom, he is shooting to tape in that example. Blackmagic hasn't enabled HDMI recording for the HV20 yet but will soon. You would get even better results if recording to PC.

Our very own Red workflow guru Mike Curtis recently reviewed a Blackmagic card with uncompressed HDMI input for DV magazine:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196603088

He kindly posted stills (albeit jpegs) comparing HDMI recording direct from cam to computer to HDV recording:
http://www.dv.com/dv/magazine/2007/June/curtis0706HDMIUncmprsd.jpg
http://www.dv.com/dv/magazine/2007/June/curtis0706native.jpg

The difference is subtle, but you can see it in fine details (and less blown-out sky in the top left). By the way, this is from a Sony HC3. The HV20 would look much better.

Mike, you listening? Care to post some more HDMI vs HDV sample TIFFs for your Red buddies?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Tom Lowe]

Thanks Bruce.

God damn those were some ugly captures, though! I think the average cell phone could top those.

[Dennis Wood]

You seen this?

Shot with the HV20, a brevis adapter and captured with the blackmagic card.

http://www.cinevate.com/images/brevisonice.wmv

Guys, that clip was just shot using the camera to tape/HDV. It's a pretty amazing little cam, although locking aperture at a given value requires a bit of a workaround. 24P pulldown removal was done using After Effects on the HDV captures, then editing in PP2.0 ... nothing fancy.

[Tom Lowe]

It looked really good to me, Dennis.

And by the way, welcome.

http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20b.jpg

I had to laugh at this a little. It looks like 10 grand worth of equipment bolted onto a $995 camera. :)

How much does that whole adapter setup cost, roughly speaking?

[Jason Francois]

It looked really good to me, Dennis.

And by the way, welcome.

http://www.cinevate.com/images/hv20b.jpg

I had to laugh at this a little. It looks like 10 grand worth of equipment bolted onto a $995 camera. :)

How much does that whole adapter setup cost, roughly speaking?

All the brevis gear is pretty reasonable. Check the cinevate site. I would think the Marshall is the most expensive part of the equation.

I really need to buckle down and order a Brevis.

[Steven M. Bailey]

What does a set-up like this cost. I will probably pick up the camera (HV20) and the black magic card as a study-cam and pack toy. I checked out the Brevis and it seems to be reasonably priced. I wonder if any one has anyone has a good source for the rest of the package:help:

[Dennis Wood]

Aside from the Marshal and HV20, we sell (the follow focus and rails-mounted power supply are nearing production) everything in those pics :-) I agree it looks a bit weird but really the HV20 is just sitting back there as an "imaging engine". The same rails system can also be configured to mount the HV20 inverted as a simple flip solution.

[Tom Lowe]

Dennis, can you give us a ballpark figure on a setup like that? Will anyone be renting your stuff out?

[Steven M. Bailey]

"Aside from the Marshal and HV20, we sell (the follow focus and rails-mounted power supply are nearing production) everything in those pics :-) I agree it looks a bit weird but really the HV20 is just sitting back there as an "imaging engine". The same rails system can also be configured to mount the HV20 inverted as a simple flip solution."

Dennis,When you say "everything" does that include a decent tripod. (Can't see the bottom of the rail from the pics.) do you have a complete package deal. If you can't post here, please send price list for the whole ball of wax to blownapartstudios@gmail.com Thankyou
Steven

[Jeremy Hughes]

http://hv20.info/yopu/hv20aperturecontrol.mov

Conrtol the shutter speed, apperture and gain.

[Stephen Gentle]

That setup looks pretty cool... I might someday buy one of them (a HV20), the SGpro lens converter and follow focus, a mattebox (like Curt's or the Red Rock one) and use it with my Nikon glass and a blackmagic card...