GYRO-stabilization for aerial cinematography...

[Peter Majtan]

Anyone out there had any experience in using Red One with gyro-stabilized rig for aerial productions? Any feedback would be much appreciated...

Also, if anyone used gyro-stabilized steadicam-type rig for shooting from moving vehicles, boats, etc...

[michael zaletel]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11937&highlight=truck+mounted

I had started another similar thread a week or two ago that had some relevant feedback from people that attended NAB.

-shooter

[Peter Majtan]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11937&highlight=truck+mounted

I had started another similar thread a week or two ago that had some relevant feedback from people that attended NAB.

-shooter

Thanks for the link...

Anyone with HELI experience?

[Gunleik Groven]

I'll have some real soon... So far only handheld Heli, but there's more down the road...

[Mark Toia]

Anyone out there had any experience in using Red One with gyro-stabilized rig for aerial productions? Any feedback would be much appreciated...

Also, if anyone used gyro-stabilized steadicam-type rig for shooting from moving vehicles, boats, etc...


We have used RED using the Continental mount (heli), Tisser mount (heli), A home made nose mount, A LIBRA 5 mount on tracking crane mount. A STAB C off the front of a Heli and a mate of mine that owns SPACECAM have just finished a RED CAMERA instilation in there BIG BALL heli mount using internally made drives.

All worked very well.

If you think your going to get sharp jolts, go to flash cards.
If your mount is gyro stabilized then RED drives work fine.

Life is made even easier when you have a remote on off cable.
Other than that nothing changes, it's the same as if you were shooting a Arri435.

[Jarred Land]

oh.. this reminds me... we just got the prototype 10' LCD cables in... and they work great.

[Peter Majtan]

oh.. this reminds me... we just got the prototype 10' LCD cables in... and they work great.

Now we are in business!!!


Thanks all for contributing...

[Peter Majtan]

We have used RED using the Continental mount (heli), Tisser mount (heli), A home made nose mount, A LIBRA 5 mount on tracking crane mount. A STAB C off the front of a Heli and a mate of mine that owns SPACECAM have just finished a RED CAMERA instilation in there BIG BALL heli mount using internally made drives.

All worked very well.

If you think your going to get sharp jolts, go to flash cards.
If your mount is gyro stabilized then RED drives work fine.

Life is made even easier when you have a remote on off cable.
Other than that nothing changes, it's the same as if you were shooting a Arri435.


Do you keep the RED-DRIVE inside the mount or back in the heli? I would like to keep the "sensitive" stuff inside. The camera will of course be "Kenyonized"...

Which size are You guys using - KS-6's or KS-8's? And how many (2 or 3)?

[Peter Majtan]

oh.. this reminds me... we just got the prototype 10' LCD cables in... and they work great.

Jarred, what is the pixel resolution of the new 7" LCD? I could not find it anywhere on the site...

[Steve Gibby]

I could be wrong, but I believe the new 7" RED LCD is the same resolution as the 5" RED LCD - 1024x600

[Steve Gibby]

Our production group has shot with RED ONE in a helicopter on several occasions since August 2007 - California, Hawaii, and elsewhere. Because of local equipment limitations and/or budget , it was using a Tyler mount each time. We also own a CineFlex gimbal mount which we mount on a helicopter and on our production yacht. We haven't used RED ONE in the CineFlex though. It is set up for use with our Sony HDC1500. At some point in the future we hope to also adapt our CineFlex for use with EPIC - we'll see.

All our copter shooting with RED ONE has been recorded to compact flash, rather than our RED Drives.

[Peter Degerfeldt]

Helicopter Film Services Wescam is ready to fly with the Red camera.
Check out more at:
http://helicopterfilm.tv/

or

http://www.bluesky.se/

Blue Skies

Peter Degerfeldt DOP/Wescam operator

[Peter Majtan]

Helicopter Film Services Wescam is ready to fly with the Red camera.
Check out more at:
http://helicopterfilm.tv/

or

http://www.bluesky.se/

Blue Skies

Peter Degerfeldt DOP/Wescam operator

Would love to visit the Trollhättan's SAAB factory again! I was there when they have introduced the 9-5 range. Would be awesome to shoot the SAAB stunt team doing their SAAB-BALLET from HELI with RED ONE...!!!

Instead I am sweating off the 40˚C (100+ Fahrenheit) heat here in Mexico...
Bagger...
:cold:

[Peter Majtan]

Our production group has shot with RED ONE in a helicopter on several occasions since August 2007 - California, Hawaii, and elsewhere. Because of local equipment limitations and/or budget , it was using a Tyler mount each time. We also own a CineFlex gimbal mount which we mount on a helicopter and on our production yacht. We haven't used RED ONE in the CineFlex though. It is set up for use with our Sony HDC1500. At some point in the future we hope to also adapt our CineFlex for use with EPIC - we'll see.

All our copter shooting with RED ONE has been recorded to compact flash, rather than our RED Drives.

Which gyros are You guys using and in what configuration?

[Steve Gibby]

Which gyros are You guys using and in what configuration?

We own a CineFlex V14 HD, custom adapted for use on our boat. We also re-mount the same CineFlex on a helicopter regularly for aerial work.

Link: http://www.cinetruck.com/cineflex-camera/

Our footage from using the CineFlex is super smooth.

[Mark Toia]

Do you keep the RED-DRIVE inside the mount or back in the heli? I would like to keep the "sensitive" stuff inside. The camera will of course be "Kenyonized"...

Which size are You guys using - KS-6's or KS-8's? And how many (2 or 3)?

Sorry Peter, I might be sounding like a dummy. Whats KS? 6 - 8 etc.

Oh I mount the drives to the camera still if we are using mounts that are mounted internally on a gyroed mount, if it's an external mount, either under slung or nose mount, we run the drives back inside with the operators.

[Mark Toia]

We own a CineFlex V14 HD, custom adapted for use on our boat. We also re-mount the same CineFlex on a helicopter regularly for aerial work.

Link: http://www.cinetruck.com/cineflex-camera/

Our footage from using the CineFlex is super smooth.

We have used the Cineflex a few times, Its a very very special unit indeed.
I really don't think there is a better ball cam in the market today.
We had the most roughest of conditions one day in a heli, so bad that I could bearly view the split monitor because it was jumping all over the cabin. Even the operator was struggling to see his monitor let alone operate.
We landed to view the footage and couldn't believe our eyes, not a single bump. it was like it was stuck on a tripod.
If cineflex somehow was adapted using a RED camera, Id buy one myself without even thinking twice.

[Peter Majtan]

Sorry Peter, I might be sounding like a dummy. Whats KS? 6 - 8 etc.

Oh I mount the drives to the camera still if we are using mounts that are mounted internally on a gyroed mount, if it's an external mount, either under slung or nose mount, we run the drives back inside with the operators.

The "only" good quality gyros that I know of (and are used by most people in our industry) are Kenyon's Labs gyros:

http://www.ken-lab.com/

The actual models are almost identical in concept/design/construction and mainly differ by the ability to stabilize more heavy cameras:

"Explorer" KS-2 (The Baby) is the most affordable one at $ 1300,- USD
They are only made to order - I have two (SN: 0708A58 & 0708A59)

"Universal" KS-4 is identical to KS-2, but uses heavier rings so it can handle more heavy gear. $ 1600,- USD

"Commander" KS-6 is little bigger then KS-2/4 and again can handle more heavy gear - it is the most commonly used in cinematography for HELI, boats, cars and very common on various STEADICAM systems. $ 2200,- USD

"Admiral" KS-8 is the heavy lifter. Same size as KS-6, but heavier rings. $ 3500,- USD

And for those who need to stabilize Hubble Telescope there is "The Chief" KS-12 at whooping $ 8800,- USD

The gyros are worth every cent. You get a professionally stabilized footage even if You need handheld shot. Plus You can frame and focus much easier. I use my two KS-2 to stabilize my DSLR for aerial still photography and I did a very impressive test with the "babies" on custom made rig for HV20 out of helicopter - the footage looks like shot on Wescam or Tyler (as far as stabilization goes...)

What I am trying to find out is if anyone is gyro-stabilizing RED ONE and if so, which size gyro's are they using...

[Rocco Schult]

oh.. this reminds me... we just got the prototype 10' LCD cables in... and they work great.

So, as we are here right now ... any estimate about time ?
I wanted to order one, lightyears ago since it was in the store and it looked like it was gone ... at least I was under the impression after I talked to your staff...

[Tom Hallman]

Pictorvision has been supporting and renting the Red in our stabilized Wescam systems since last November.

www.Pictorvision.com

Keep in mind that stabilizing the system is often just half the battle. You also need to be able accurately control the steering (Pan, Tilt, Zoom), and monitor the image.


Tom Hallman

President
Pictorvision
Thallman@pictorvision.com
818-785-9282

http://www.pictorvision.com

[Mike Devlin]

The "only" good quality gyros that I know of (and are used by most people in our industry) are Kenyon's Labs gyros

The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...

[Mark Toia]

The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...

and you should be!...It's an Awesome rig.
All other stabilized Heli systems are nothing on the CINEFLEX, I've tried them all.
AND I HATE TAPE!.
Like I said before, If you could get A RED camera stuffed in there, you'd never shoot anything else but CINEFLEX.

[Peter Majtan]

The Cineflex and other high-end stabilization systems do not use Kenyon gyros. Kenyons are used in low-end systems that use inertial stabilization (big gyros stabilize camera with their mass). The Cineflex (we own one and have shot ~500 HDCAM SR tapes worth of footage with it in the last year) uses a five axis servo system with several microprocessors using several sensors (accelerometers and gyros (like laser ring gyros or other types of small gyros)) to track motion and compute control signals for all five axis. Same technolgy that's used in aerospace systems.

Long ago we did try the Aerial Exposures rig which uses Kenyon gyros. It is a joke compared to the Cineflex. Of course the Cineflex is 25X as expensive as the Aerial Exposures unit, but the Cineflex is at least 1000X better.

see http://www.axsys.com/p-scs.php

Sorry for perhaps over reacting to your "only Kenyon" comment, but I am partial to my Cineflex...

I am not saying that Cineflex is bad. It's just Cineflex is like the Bugatti Veyron. Amazing, The Best, but sadly out of reach for everyone, but few blessed with substantial financial resources. Nothing for me...

The gyro type used in these systems is "Piezo-Gyro" and it does require complex electronics to make it work. Not something anyone could do, especially not on a budget...

I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself...

I do disagree thou about the Cineflex being 1000x better. That would imply that the final image is 1000x more stabilized (as that is the main purpose of stabilization system) and "traditional" inertial gyros can stabilize the footage almost to perfection. This could be in fact measured and compared and I would be surprised if the footage was even 10x more stabilized, which would clearly not justify (to me) the 25x higher cost - mind You the AerialExposure's system is already a bit overpriced once You realize (and strip) the cost of the actual gyros (even at retail), but I understand their need to make profit...

So my system (when is finished) will be something like 50x more affordable with (I bet) at least 1/10 the stabilization quality. If You add to this equation final stabilization in post and the fact that we would ever use Red One's footage for 2K delivery, I am sure I could compete with the Cineflex quality...

Once again - I am not putting down Cineflex - I am sure it is amazing system, it is just out of my reach...

Here I applaud RED - for their philosophy of delivering state-of-the-art product at reasonable cost accessible to majority of filmmakers...

PS: I think I would go for KS-8's just to be sure - will let You know the results...

[Peter Majtan]

The main problem with all non-inertia gyro stabilized systems is their lack of "personal" feedback and response to Your controls. Its like controlling remote-controlled car vs actually driving it. Sure the footage is "glued" to a point of view, but it is hard and little "unnatural" to follow a subject - this can be also seen well in the linked video above. Notice how the cameraman struggled to get the hawk/eagle to frame and keep him in it... Rock solid stabilization is not everything, but I am sure this (small) issue will evolve and eventually disappear...

[Larry Gebhardt]

"I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself..."


Peter, I have been developing a shoulder mounted Gyro stabilized rig for the Red (and other small cameras) on and off for over a year. Uses two KS8 gyros in a crossed axis configuration. This allows me to shoot handheld and, with the huge extra resolution that we have with the red (assuming a 2k or HD delivery), finalize the stabilization in post with any of the relatively low cost post stabilization apps (AE, Motion, etc.). I shoot a lot of high energy action, out of heli's and other moving vehicles and by shooting handheld,(if you can stabilize the image through both on-board gyros, and later even more in post), you have the huge added advantage (for me) over the gimbal mounts of actually having your eye up to the finder...this is the most important thing for me. (and having your 'other' eye available to see what is going on around the shot...much more of an organic feel)

And I'm not even considering budget here...it is what I do to deliver the kind of shots that I specialize in.

As soon as my number comes in (Red 2228) I will be jumping head first into this endeavor...if you would like to talk more, please PM me...It would be good to discuss.

Larry

[Peter Majtan]

"I am looking for reasonably-priced gyro stabilized system, and since I haven't find one I am developing one myself..."


Peter, I have been developing a shoulder mounted Gyro stabilized rig for the Red (and other small cameras) on and off for over a year. Uses two KS8 gyros in a crossed axis configuration. This allows me to shoot handheld and, with the huge extra resolution that we have with the red (assuming a 2k or HD delivery), finalize the stabilization in post with any of the relatively low cost post stabilization apps (AE, Motion, etc.). I shoot a lot of high energy action, out of heli's and other moving vehicles and by shooting handheld,(if you can stabilize the image through both on-board gyros, and later even more in post), you have the huge added advantage (for me) over the gimbal mounts of actually having your eye up to the finder...this is the most important thing for me. (and having your 'other' eye available to see what is going on around the shot...much more of an organic feel)

And I'm not even considering budget here...it is what I do to deliver the kind of shots that I specialize in.

As soon as my number comes in (Red 2228) I will be jumping head first into this endeavor...if you would like to talk more, please PM me...It would be good to discuss.

Larry

Now we're talking! I sure will PM You - Thanks Larry...

[Brent J. Craig]

The Aerial Exposures rig may not be the top of the line, but it is a great inexpensive stabilization system. The whole thing fits in one 113 pound travel case and powers off a 12V battery.

Here's a shot of Key Grip Derek Teakle and DP Dylan Macleod (Reduser dmacleod) testing it for our 40 day Red shoot which starts next week.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/3817_1209316700.jpg

[Jarred Land]

ive always wondered how well those little footballs work. Thanks for the report Crewpix.

[Nick Gardner]

One thing to think about is that you can't adjust the effect of the gyro. So if you use two ks-8s, thats a lot of inertia. Using more smaller gyro's (3 ks-4s etc) alows you to adjust how much extra stabilization you need by adding/subtracting gyros. These things have tons of uses, and the more you understand how they behave the more useful they are. Plus they are fun to zip tie onto an air rifle.

Peace,

Nick

[Jarred Land]

So, as we are here right now ... any estimate about time ?
I wanted to order one, lightyears ago since it was in the store and it looked like it was gone ... at least I was under the impression after I talked to your staff...

It should be rather soon..

[Brent J. Craig]

ive always wondered how well those little footballs work. Thanks for the report Crewpix.

We only tested it for a half hour or so, but it really did the job shooting out the back of a pickup truck. We were going over curbs and Toronto's excellent crop of spring potholes and it was surprisingly smooth. It was quite challenging to hold a level horizon, partly because we needed more ballast at the bottom to offset the weight of the Red and the Arri Lightweight Zoom, and partly because it takes a while to get used to operating it.

It is a great find for us because we anticipate shooting from a bunch of regular (non-film) helicopters, SUVs, and giant dump trucks (!). We needed something you could travel with and this fits the bill nicely.

We'll be reporting in from the road whenever we have net access. We're doing some cool things - cable cams, truck mounts, jungle, desert, high-altitude, "low" altitude 1.5 miles underground. I already mentioned that we are shooting Red for a 4K finish as a substitute for Imax on a 100' screen.

We have a nice set of Master Primes, the Arri 15.5-45mm LW zoom and the Red 300. Sim Video has set us up with all their great accessories and a smokin' hot E-V-F, which is amazing.

Stay tuned...

[Larry Gebhardt]

One thing I found out is that the smaller units (KS6's specifically...havent used the KS4's), is that your hit the 'tumble' point quicker when following action ...I believe Ken-Lab specs the KS6 at 20 degrees per second vs 30 for the KS8 (and it seems to take a lot more force before tumbling). Doesn't seem like a lot of difference, but when you're doing it...it is a lot...and as soon as the gyros tumble..the shot is gone, or at least there is a big bump in the shot. Just my take.

[Peter Majtan]

I can't wait to hear more CrewPix! Keep us posted...

Hey Larry - finally I got my answer - I was really wandering for the size of Red One whether KS-6 is not to small and I should opt for the KS-8. You got a good point right there... As Kenyon guys say - there is nothing wrong with overkill when it comes to gyros...

I just have to rob few more banks than I originally planned... :ninja:

[Larry Gebhardt]

Yeah, Peter, they ain't cheap. As a side note, I first tried to mix a KS8 with a KS6 on crossed axies...thinking that I would need more stabilization in one axis and could use the smaller gyro on another where I felt that less stabilization would be OK...wrong!...tried it out riding in a pickup bed (good way to check out this stuff...find a bumpy road with lots turns...as CrewPix did), and the KS6 would dump (tumble) way sooner than the KS8...I was all over the place. Lesson learned...use same size gyro on all axes.

[Brian Ferguson]

Tyler Camera Systems has a handheld mount that has 2 gyros an a pogo stick type base that absorbs shock. Here is a photo of Nelson Tyler with the system rigged with a RED ONE. It works pretty well takes a little getting used to and good communication with your pilot.

4603

[Peter Majtan]

Tyler Camera Systems has a handheld mount that has 2 gyros an a pogo stick type base that absorbs shock. Here is a photo of Nelson Tyler with the system rigged with a RED ONE. It works pretty well takes a little getting used to and good communication with your pilot.

4603

Any idea which gyros are inside and what is the app. cost of the system?

[roryhinds]

how are you guys running the drives inside?
what drive cable are you using as the only one i have is about 1 foot long.

Anyone know when the RED SSD will be released?

[Rocco Schult]

I was indeed asking myself that too..
SATA is officially limited to 1m, E-SATA to 2m...

[Michael Brennan]

I also use my KS6 to stabilise camera on a tripod for ultra long lens work.




Mike Brennan

[chuck colburn]

Any idea which gyros are inside and what is the app. cost of the system?

Peter,

Tyler is or at least was, a rental only operation. You know like Fisher Booms and that movie camera company. lol

[Peter Majtan]

Peter,

Tyler is or at least was, a rental only operation. You know like Fisher Booms and that movie camera company. lol

That item sure looks small enough for sale...

[chuck colburn]

Well as I keep telling them it's not the size that counts....

[Peter Majtan]

Yeah, "normal" Tyler is out of question for us, as we are planning to buy the Robinson R44 Raven II, and as far as I know it (tyler) won't fit and it may cost as much (or more) as the helicopter itself... This little fella however looks like it could fit in both ways...

D'oh!

Looks like I will have to build one myself...

[Constantine Tyrintzis]

New cost effective way for aerial shooting - and not only - HR-1 deluxe with 2 KS4 or 2 KS6 gyros, plus low mode bracket with Bungee cord attachment to hang from sealing of heli close to the door. Perfect CG balancing and dynamic balance, together with gyros, and you have a small tyler like mount , with out breaking the bank.
Easy attachment of gyros via rod bracketing system at back tail. Images soon.. also the Acrobat will do all the above as well..render of cad with future epic on board

[Doug Thost]

We've got a mount in development that is similar to the LSG-2 system of Aerial Exposures... uses 2 KS8s plus a KS12 when a larger camera like the RED is used. Works pretty well, and considering the price differential between Cineflex, Tyler etc. and these "cheaper" systems, it's a good option. Demo footage, using a Canon 5D, here:

http://www.vimeo.com/9771939

[Tom Lowe]

I'm about to do a shoot with two KS8 gyros, and wanted to tag a spot on this thread. I'll post my experience here.