Remember the attitude towards latitude!

[Alexander Nikishin]

I am more than happy with everything that is being promised and that has been shown in regards to the Red One.

Yet the one thing that worries me is the loss of MY holy grail spec. The one which I along with most others view as the most important of all. The almighty 11+ stops of latitude!

Please keep this feature at the forefront of the Red teams promised specs.

[jbeale]

Not sure I'm clear on that- is there a new official latitude spec out that is less than 11 stops? And how is that measured exactly? There are different ways to do it.

[Jannard]

Our latitude numbers won't slip... the Mysterium® sensor is what it is. We still have a lot to do, but re-working the sensor is NOT one of them.

Jim

[Don Woods]

I Love 11+ just brings you back to the orange power cord on the porsche shot..

[Alexander Nikishin]

Our latitude numbers won't slip... the Mysterium® sensor is what it is. We still have a lot to do, but re-working the sensor is NOT one of them.

Jim

Great to hear Jim.

This thread is just a bit of positive re-enforcement for my mind and eyeballs. :nerd:

[Rick Darge]

I was told by a Sony Rep that the Mysterium was 5 steps, no?

I was lied too, no?


My pants are on fire, no?

[Brook Willard]

That Sony rep actually had legitimate, unreleased inside information on RED. Yes, it's actually only 5 stops. You really should buy their cameras instead.

[Jarred Land]

I Love 11+ just brings you back to the orange power cord on the porsche shot..

and remember... that was right out of the gate.... wait till you see what half a year in REDTIME does.

[Hrvoje Simic]

and remember... that was right out of the gate.... wait till you see what half a year in REDTIME does.

Oh...a new REDterm :biggrin:

[PaulClements]

RedTime's a trademark Omen, so is RedTerm, stop using it without permission :)

For Jim, Jarred and co, have you had a play with the camera in low light conditions in recent times then? And what are your impressions on noise in the blacks/dark areas now? I seem to recall in the early days a few images beaten to death in photoshop to reveal some noise, I dare say Graham has done alot to remedy this.

[Mike the beginner]

Our latitude numbers won't slip... the Mysterium® sensor is what it is. We still have a lot to do, but re-working the sensor is NOT one of them.

Jim

Alexander i think we are all waiting to see what the red one will be like with latitude and as Paul says low light in partcular.

I note Jim didn't say it had 11 stops, just that it is what it is?:biggrin:


I hope that "is what it is" is comparable to the "other big named cameras" :wink:


Jarrad i would much prefer the junior status for the time being, my posts are just learning posts!

[Brook Willard]

The last semi-official number was 11.3 stops.

[Dan Blanchett]

Mike, you're "senior" because you crossed the magic threshold in # of posts (I'm guessing).

[roryhinds]

It would be great to get a RED test shot of a candel light scene much like the Arri Zeiss master prime poster..

http://www.arri.com/infodown/cam/poster/mp_poster_breathtaking.pdf

Low light is a major concern for me and I'm hoping RED will work much like a DSLR which you can change the ISO settings for various lighting conditions.

[Sam Druckerman]

It would be great to get a RED test shot of a candel light scene much like the Arri Zeiss master prime poster..

http://www.arri.com/infodown/cam/poster/mp_poster_breathtaking.pdf

Low light is a major concern for me and I'm hoping RED will work much like a DSLR which you can change the ISO settings for various lighting conditions.

That reminds me, way back when.... Jim had a shot (still) of himself lit with candlelight, I thought that looked really cool.

[Stephen Williams]

The last semi-official number was 11.3 stops.

Hi Brook,

Hopefully that image will be released. If not anybody with a camera can duplicate that test themselves.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

Here's the candle shot. Keep in mind that this was shot on Frankie long before she was even remotely fine tuned. A lot has changed since this picture was posted.

I've always assumed there was some HMI fill here. Candles rarely glow blue.

[damonbots]

Does Jim have a cigar surgically attached to his lips? I think I've seen one picture of him without a cigar but I'm pretty sure the cigar was photoshopped out.

[Mike the beginner]

Mike, you're "senior" because you crossed the magic threshold in # of posts (I'm guessing).

Yes i know. But my posts are not very helpful to the vast majority of forumites, unless like me, you know so little:sad:

If the red one can go up to eleven stops in a controlled test with the "other cameras" that will be a major shock to those who are less than ecstatic.

Mike the beginner

[Brook Willard]

This may have changed... remember, this was calculated from Frankie.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This may have changed... remember, this was calculated from Frankie.

So, if I'm reading that right, Frankie was showing about 11 stops, as has been discussed...

[Brook Willard]

Yes, 11.3 stops.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I look forward to the day when I can officially say, mine goes to 11!.

[Manfred Lopez]

Does anyone know what the units are on the chart under brightness (the ones that go from 0 to 12). Is it foot candles? I apologize if this is a dumb question but I would really like to know.

[jbeale]

I was assuming that was just relative exposure in f-stops, based on the caption "STOPS". If it was a linear unit like footcandles that would be an extremely small dynamic range. Opening up the lens by one f-stop increases the effective area of the lens by a factor of two, resulting in twice as much light reaching your image plane (film or sensor). So 11 stops is a range of 2^11 to 1, or 2048:1 in light intensity.

Another way to think of it: 11 stops difference in light is roughly the difference between a floodlit building at night and direct sunlight on a clear day. At least according to this chart: http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light%20Intensity%20Chart

[Manfred Lopez]

Relative to what? The horizontal numbers I asume are f-stops since it says 'stops' and because there is a hard grey vertical line at around 2.2 and 13.6 or so... But what are thevertical numbers. I come from an audio background and I am used to looking at response charts... but this one I still can't figure out.

[jbeale]

Oh, the vertical "brightness" scale. I assume that's just the output of the camera, on a log scale, in arbitrary units. I believe the point of the graph is just to show that there is some response which extends over 11 stops, not a specific calibration.

At least in the video camera world I have not seen a camera output calibrated directly from IRE units to say footcandles. Because of the gamma curve, "knee" and various compression curves, the response is very non-linear. You could match up one specific output value to one input light level, but to extrapolate that to other levels it's a rather complex function.

[Brook Willard]

This link will explain the test to those that don't understand it. (http://www.imatest.com/docs/q13.html#dynamic) As for the "brightness" values... I'll leave that explanation to somebody from RED.

[Manfred Lopez]

Okay, not to be the devil's advocate, but what stops a manufacturer from just plumping the curve to make it look better if the numbers don't mean anything? In the audio world you sometimes have manufacturers that compress down the db spread on their response curves just to make the measurement seem very flat... but at least they still disclose that it is in db increments that they are measuring.

I am sure Red will eventually have all charts available with acurate measurements, it's just that I was trying to understand this particular one.

EDIT: oops, didn't see Brook's post with that link. I will read right now.

[Manfred Lopez]

[url=http://www.imatest.com/docs/q13.html#dynamic] As for the "brightness" values... I'll leave that explanation to somebody from RED.

So the "brightness" numbers are related to density?

[jbeale]

My take is the graph indicates there is "some response" over the indicated range of f-stops but we don't currently know exactly "what response". It's a sort of quick visual answer to the question of "how many f-stops of dynamic range" which lots of people had been asking, to which the graph answers "11+".

I believe you are asking a more detailed followup question, which is fair, but the graph by itself doesn't fully answer. That awaits further info from Red. At the bottom limit the usable dynamic range is always fuzzy because it depends on what noise level you are willing to tolerate; a very subjective thing.

[Manfred Lopez]

Fair enough. We shall then wait. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

[Brook Willard]

I don't know what the numbers refer to. That's why I said I'd leave it for somebody from RED.

On a side note, I'm doing a test with 5212, 5217, 5218 and 5299 in two weeks to compare, among other things, grain structure and dynamic range. The negatives will be scanned at 2K and all sorts of fun will be had. If I can get my hands on a T4110 C by then, you'll have an interesting "Frankie vs. Kodak" comparison to read about.

[Manfred Lopez]

Cool. It will be very interesting to see the results.

[Don Woods]

and remember... that was right out of the gate.... wait till you see what half a year in REDTIME does.

Very True. And I can't wait to see more things in frames that we are not suppose to