Who knows anything about this 65mm cmos cam? [Archive]

Jason Ramsey

01-05-2007, 12:45 PM

This is not meant to be a "which is better". I promise. We all know which is better :) And probably a lot cheaper.

Anyways, I just came across this under the "competitors" section of the red listing on wikipedia.

It appears to be a 65mm cmos 10 megapixel 4k with 125fps, etc. etc.

I was just curious if some of you who are familiar with it, could list how some of the features stack up against the RED. Not a which is better. Just a comparison. The 65mm sensor is quite interesting, if I knew what I was reading.

One thing I do find interesting is up to 512Gig flash drives.

Later,
Jason

EDIT: Oh yeah, duh. here's a link to a pdf on the cam

http://www.visionresearch.com/uploads/docs/Products/DS_phantom65.pdf

or this link too: http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=camera_65_new

Isaac Brody

01-05-2007, 12:51 PM

It's called the phantom? Phantom product? Sorry, couldn't resist.:rolleyes:

How much will this cost? Looks espensive.

Jason Ramsey

01-05-2007, 12:52 PM

Yeah. I don't know. The only way I can see to find a price is to "request a quote" It sounds like it is out now though.

Jason

Dominic Jones

01-05-2007, 12:57 PM

It's certainly up and working - they demo'd it at the same IBC conference that Red first showed footage at, if I'm not mistaken...

No idea on price, but I'd guess not cheap. More interesting (imo) than the 4k 125fps version is the 2k version that does some kind of horrific speed - I can't remember precisely of the top of my head but I'm pretty sure it's over 1,000fps!! God knows what you need to store that data though, it must be buffered for a short run operation or something similar, sustained rates would be crazy.

EDIT: I've just remembered seeing a spot about one of the BBC's "Planet Earth" series of nature documentaries, in which they film a shark attacking a seal in slo-mo (as in *serious* slo-mo!), using a camera that recorded a 3-second rolling buffer, and captured 1.5 secs before and after the record button is pressed - could have been the Phantom 2k, but then again perhaps not. Anyone else seen this and can confirm/deny?

It's awesome footage (for the content matter as much as image quality, but it looked great too)...

Clayton Harper

01-05-2007, 01:17 PM

I think you can rent the 2k high-speed version from Abel Cine in New York.

The Phantom requires cabling to some superduper RAID device controlled by a laptop. The camera produces pretty amazing looking slowmo shots. It is not however a competor to Red One in any way given its price (>100k) and tethered operation/limited storage. Don't forget that image size isn't the only thing our heroes are revolutionizing here but also storage and image manipulation. VIVA LA REDCODE RAW!

BTW, did you look at the shot of the trees they posted? Does it look any better than anything we've seen here on the boards so far?

Dominic Jones

01-05-2007, 01:30 PM

Nope, I don't consider it a competitor (at least not directly) to Red either - it may well be useful as an additional hire in camera for high speed work when necessary without resorting to 35mm, though...

What I find most exciting about the Phantom is that they're getting such ludicrous framerates - that is really one of the last pieces of the puzzle in terms of an all digital workflow for any situation.

Antoine Fabi

01-05-2007, 01:43 PM

Agree,

I dont see it as a competitor.
More of a ultra slow motion device.

...and the price ?

You're Right Clayton "VIVA LA REDCODE RAW!"

Jason Ramsey

01-05-2007, 01:48 PM

Someone a couple of posts up said that it was like 100k. I don't know if that is for the 2k or the 4k version.

Definitely not a competitor, for sure. What is? :)

It does have a couple of interesting features, that I am not well versed enough on the RED specs to compare to know if it has them too. The 512gig flash recording device seems nice (albeit probably priced out of this world). And the ability to adjust the aspect ratio in 7 pixel increments.

Later,
Jason

Finner

01-05-2007, 01:50 PM

_BK

01-05-2007, 01:52 PM

The Phantom can do full 2k at around 600 fps and cropped 2k at 1000fps. It records everything to onboard memory giving you about 1 minute of shooting before offload. Last I head its going to be close to $100k, but they still haven't gotten it working correctly yet.

Greg M

01-05-2007, 02:00 PM

I am demoing the camera later this year. I spoke to the company several times last year. They are more into Scientific applications and saw a niche in our market and are trying to exploit it. Sounds very promising. A friend recently rented one for a shoot and had nothing but good things to say. He recently produced the open to Dexter (Showtime series) with the camera.

Isaac Brody

01-05-2007, 02:06 PM

A friend recently rented one for a shoot and had nothing but good things to say. He recently produced the open to Dexter (Showtime series) with the camera.

That's awesome. That's one of my favorite shows and it's a great opening.

baro

01-05-2007, 02:28 PM

At least with this camera is proof that the heat issues that some skeptics said could not be overcome can be. Its good to see that a CMOS sensor can take the heat at an HD level of 1000fps or at 4k at 125.

It is possible the heat generates a lot of noise in the image. So if you shoot only for a few seconds the imager doesn't have the time to get hot, but if you shoot 1000fps continously the low light performance gets awfull. This is only speculation.

Mark Thorpe

01-05-2007, 02:47 PM

EDIT: I've just remembered seeing a spot about one of the BBC's "Planet Earth" series of nature documentaries, in which they film a shark attacking a seal in slo-mo (as in *serious* slo-mo!), using a camera that recorded a 3-second rolling buffer, and captured 1.5 secs before and after the record button is pressed - could have been the Phantom 2k, but then again perhaps not. Anyone else seen this and can confirm/deny? It's awesome footage (for the content matter as much as image quality, but it looked great too)...

Could have been the Varicam shots from False Bay close to Cape Town. I was down there last year filming the same kind of natural predation sequences for NGTV. We were bobbing on the Ocean in competition for space with some of the boys from the Beeb at the time. Just a possibility anyway. The footage was incredible according to their deck hands.

Cheers,
Mark.

Jared VanLeuven

01-05-2007, 02:51 PM

Dominic Jones

01-05-2007, 09:02 PM

Could have been the Varicam shots from False Bay close to Cape Town. I was down there last year filming the same kind of natural predation sequences for NGTV. We were bobbing on the Ocean in competition for space with some of the boys from the Beeb at the time. Just a possibility anyway. The footage was incredible according to their deck hands.

Cheers,
Mark.
Hi Mark,

Maybe... I think (and being fair I would put much money on the performance of my memory at the best of times!) that the framerate was higher than the Varicam can handle, but again, it may have been the same shoot with a one-off shot on a special order camera...

Sounds like a great gig, and the footage was definitely awesome, so that fits (then again, those BBC nature guys are *damn* good - if you haven't seen the Blue Planet/Planet Earth stuff you really should, some of it is literally breathtaking...).

Jarred Land

01-05-2007, 10:09 PM

I worked with Vision Research in the past to test some previous versions of the phantoms out ( all the stuff on www.purposelabs.com was stuff I shot with the phantom) and its a great camera.. its incredibly expensive though, and not really a competitor to the Red camera.

It is however great to have more cameras, even specialty high end cameras appear in the 4k domain.. as the more 4k material out there the more it helps convince the industry to develop tools to accommodate the resolution.

Ken Hendricks

01-05-2007, 10:23 PM

At least with this camera is proof that the heat issues that some skeptics said could not be overcome can be. Its good to see that a CMOS sensor can take the heat at an HD level of 1000fps or at 4k at 125.

From the picture in the .pdf, it looks like the Phantom 65 might have a FAN on the back. That would certainly help with heat issues. It might not help with sound issues!

PieroD

01-06-2007, 01:05 AM

I am more in science than in video production, and yes I see competition between the two kind of products. I mean, the RED can be a big competitor to the Phantom, and also to other specialized high speed cameras manufactured by other companies. With the specifics of the RED and at its price point, it should be not very difficult to lower a bit the resolution and increase the number of FPS. And the system integration of the RED will free from the cumbersome techincalities, at a fraction of the cost.

Let's wait and see

Piero

Scott Webster

01-06-2007, 01:08 AM

The camera reported to be used on the BBC's Planet Earth series was the Arri Tornado system, 1280x1024 at up to 1000fps. They later changed to a different camera system which they could own (The Tornado is not for sale)

http://www.arrimedia.com/product.php?product_id=1483

http://www.eprg.org/tmp/simonking.jpg

A UK discussion on the technology can be found here:
http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=40287&highlight=Planet+Earth

Ace

01-06-2007, 01:24 AM

The camera reported to be used on the BBC's Planet Earth series was the Arri Tornado system, 1280x1024 at up to 1000fps. They later changed to a different camera system which they could own (The Tornado is not for sale)

http://www.arrimedia.com/product.php?product_id=1483

A UK discussion on the technology can be found here:
http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=40287&highlight=Planet+Earth

Excellent thread, I read the whole thing.

PieroD

01-06-2007, 01:26 AM

Scott Webster

01-06-2007, 01:30 AM

Rocketeer,

the camera you refer to is actually from NAC, the most respected company (Japanese) producing high speed cameras for scientific applications. You can buy them, but again, very expensive and complicated systems.

Piero

Yes, Arri refer to them in the print for the camera. Arri must be marketing the camera for them? or have exclusive rental rights.

Just in case you missed it on the linked Arri page, the Tornado pdf link:
http://www.arrimedia.com/files/arrimedia.com/Tornado%20Production%20Guide_4_E.pdf

Scott Webster

01-06-2007, 01:39 AM

Excellent thread, I read the whole thing.
Yes, when Alan Roberts talks HD its worth paying attention, You would of also noticed a contribution from a certain Red Problem Solver...

PieroD

01-06-2007, 01:49 AM

Rocketeer,

the camera in the Tornado system as shown in the pdf, looks like the NAC Memrecam fx K4, with the Arri mark on it. Check the www.nacinc.com NAC website. Probably they integrate the camera system with accessories and rent it. Anyway, you can buy NAC cameras directly from NAC.

And again very expensive. I hope that RED can change something in that Deparmtent.

Piero

Tom Bridges

01-06-2007, 10:39 AM

I was over at ARRI a few months ago and saw some of the footage coming off the Tornado. Quite incredible. It was of some parkour (free running) in Paris. Most of it was shot very wide, and the guys were doing these amazing jumps towards the camera. Because of the extreme slow-motion, you never quite knew whether they were going to make it or not! The image quality was impressive, too.

The reason that you can only film in bursts with the camera is not due to overheating, it's because you can only record solid-state. Obviously there's only so much you can record at that kind of data rate before needing to dump it off to disk or tape. Working with the footage didn't look entirely straightforward, either. I think ARRI had to buy a Quantel eQ to be able to view and use it. Hopefully real-world usability will be a major advantage of the Red camera.

First post here. Hi everyone.

Tom