PDA

View Full Version : Scratch 3.9 rocks on MacPro 8 core



Sanjin Jukic
04-25-2008, 10:45 AM
Scratch 3.9 rocks on MacPro 8 core even with ATI X1900XT card.

Absolutely fantastic. Works well and much, much better then version 3.6 that I evaluated in December last year.

Assimilate should ones more to re-think/re-consider about an option to sell just software to all RED Mac users and make all of us happy.

It is about to use just one box to start (cut in FCP) on Mac OS X and finish in Scratch (grade and confirm) on Boot Camp Windows XP.

Wait and your dreams will come true if Assimilate could decide with the best price in a favor of REDusers.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Scratch_Strauss.jpg
Scratch 3.9 running in Booth Camp Windows XP on MacPro 8 core 3.0 GHz, Apple Cinema Display 30".

Pietro Impagliazzo
04-25-2008, 10:48 AM
Nice...

Does boot camp hinder performance in any way?

Gunleik Groven
04-25-2008, 11:19 AM
I thought it wouldn't even start without a quadro FX, 'cept from on Lucas' MacBookPro.


So S; give us the InDepth review!

Gunleik

Sanjin Jukic
04-25-2008, 11:42 AM
.


So S; give us the InDepth review!

Gunleik

I'll try to play with a little bit over the weekend.

Chris Parker
04-25-2008, 01:18 PM
can it play out live to a monitor or deck? if so, at what resolution?

Gunleik Groven
04-25-2008, 01:19 PM
It can't without the quadro FX SDI card

Sanjin Jukic
04-25-2008, 01:50 PM
It can't without the quadro FX SDI card

Yes Gunleik you are right.

But I have probably the lowest PC/Boot Camp solution that Scratch can run on Mac nicely.

The higher option is to get Quadro FX 4600/5600 Mac version and the latest 3.3 GHz MacIntel computer.

But now all what I wanted to say that to play with R3D files like a native ones is only true option for REDuser. Then you can conform starting with 4K 4096x2048, etc... No DPX, Cineon, Tiff, ProRes, Avid DNX, Cineform, AVI, etc... conversions. Also Scratch 3.9 finally have got nicely optimized to do this R3D work that even rocks on my MacPro 3.0 GHz 8 core. Tomorrow I'll tell you what is going on with MacBook Pro 17" Dual Core 2.3 GHz.

Bob England
04-25-2008, 02:02 PM
It has been my understanding from previous posts by Lukas w/Assimilate, that they will sell you the sofware only. Is this not true?

Adam Glick
04-25-2008, 02:15 PM
It can't without the quadro FX SDI card

Even if Boot Camp fully supported Quadro SDI on MAC - you still would not have the compute performance (even on the fastest MAC available) to output 4K r3d footage at full quality HD or 2K.

For this, you will need a certified Scratch or Scratch Cine system.

But it is cool that Scratch can run on a mac with boot camp. For doing conforms and a few other tasks, I can see this as possibly quite useful for certain folks who won't consider a Windows system.

Jason Diamond
04-25-2008, 02:35 PM
wow! great work.
realtime output is not always the necessity and this may be a great workaround for a workhorse to do some heavy lifting.

laguun
04-25-2008, 04:49 PM
But now all what I wanted to say that to play with R3D files like a native ones is only true option for REDuser. Then you can confirm in any format and size you need that starting with 4K 4096x2048, etc... No DPX, Cineon, Tiff, ProRes, Avid DNX, Cineform, AVI, etc... conversions. Also Scratch 3.9 finally have got nicely optimized to do this R3D work that even rocks on my MacPro 3.0 GHz 8 core. Tomorrow I'll tell you what is going on with MacBook Pro 17" Dual Core 2.3 GHz.

Hi,

just curious, why do you want to use windows? Would you not rather use Speedgrade XR under OSX on the apple pc? scratch is a cool system, but i think for a real scratch you would be better served with a microsoft-os pc and a nvidia quadro sdi, not an apple pc w/o sdi.

regarding conversion: cineform is in my opinion rather an enhancement of the raw workflow than an conversion, as a) you get non-destructive colorcorrection metadata with raw access b) are not only native raw in FCP, but also Adobe CS, combustion, fusion, maya etc c) you gain realtime 2K and 4000pix editing (not proxy or wrapper) editing in FCP and 2K/4K on PPro.

And good to hear that scratch runs good on an ATI1900 card. Have you thought about using an HMDI->SDI converter on the 1900 in order to compensate the missing SDI? blackmagic design just has introduced inexpensive ones, for 495$
http://decklink.com/products/miniconverters/

nacamera
04-25-2008, 05:28 PM
Nice...

Does boot camp hinder performance in any way?

Since XP runs FASTER in Bootcamp on a Mac, than any comparable native PC, performance should not be an issue.

laguun
04-26-2008, 03:01 AM
Since XP runs FASTER in Bootcamp on a Mac, than any comparable native PC, performance should not be an issue.

sorry, thats wrong - there are many faster pcs than apples pcs, from skulltrail to 16cores, and a pc, no matter what logo is on it, runs as fast as its building parts . a sticker wont improve speed.

Sanjin Jukic
04-26-2008, 03:20 AM
sorry, thats wrong - there are many faster pcs than apples pcs, from skulltrail to 16cores, and a pc, no matter what logo is on it, runs as fast as its building parts . a sticker wont improve speed.

Maybe Apple should consult Bruce Allen for building faster and cheaper MacIntels and also give him to optimize all Apple Pro Apps especially FCP and Color from tons of bugs that can finally run better in his famous trailer company in LA :clown2: :) :) :) .

Gene Crucean
04-26-2008, 09:26 AM
sorry, thats wrong - there are many faster pcs than apples pcs, from skulltrail to 16cores, and a pc, no matter what logo is on it, runs as fast as its building parts . a sticker wont improve speed.

I just wanted to backup laguun on this one. Mac's ARE PC's now... meaning, the hardware inside is what determines it's speed. If you build a PC with better specs, it will outperform the Mac and vise versa.

What bugs me about what Bob said is that it comes from that old school mac-head attitude.

nacamera
04-26-2008, 02:02 PM
sorry, thats wrong - there are many faster pcs than apples pcs, from skulltrail to 16cores, and a pc, no matter what logo is on it, runs as fast as its building parts . a sticker wont improve speed.

Skulltrail? Sounds pretty custom-build to me. Let me clarify, I was speaking of off the shelf--Apple Store vs. Gateway Store, vs. Dell Store, vs. Best Buy, etc. computers. I am aware that there are endless boutique operations on the PC side (and even a few on the Mac side) that do soup up the stock computer. I was not speaking of them---and yes STOCK Mac versus STOCK PC (Dell, Sony, HP, etc...)of comparable architecture shows in countless bench mark tests that the Mac will run XP AND Vista faster (in the vast majority of cases).

Lucas Wilson
04-26-2008, 02:26 PM
Skulltrail? Sounds pretty custom-build to me. Let me clarify, I was speaking of off the shelf--Apple Store vs. Gateway Store, vs. Dell Store, vs. Best Buy, etc. computers. I am aware that there are endless boutique operations on the PC side (and even a few on the Mac side) that do soup up the stock computer. I was not speaking of them---and yes STOCK Mac versus STOCK PC (Dell, Sony, HP, etc...)of comparable architecture shows in countless bench mark tests that the Mac will run XP AND Vista faster (in the vast majority of cases).

Who gives a crap? You buy whatever computer you need to run what you want to run. If you want to drive a car, buy a car. You want a high-performance racecar, you soup it up. For running REDCODE at 1/2 rez high for realtime color correction and output, a souped-up PC does the trick. A Mac does not. Period, end of story.

As soon as a Mac does that, then there will be more options. Right now, there is only one, and it isn't built in Cupertino.

There are plenty of places to start an OS flame war. This isn't one of them.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Jason Diamond
04-26-2008, 02:46 PM
well whats the cost to get the Scratchine' minus hardware if i wanted to run in bootcamp ala the above possibility.
just a theoretical. esp since apple is supposed to be shoehorning a quad core chip into the next macbook +pro's

who knows. but options are nice.

Gunleik Groven
04-26-2008, 02:48 PM
wasn't ScratchCine price public (Gunleik remembering Luki posting this, or am I wrong...)

Cüneyt Kaya
04-26-2008, 02:49 PM
17 500 dollares baby

Adam Glick
04-27-2008, 02:50 PM
well whats the cost to get the Scratchine' minus hardware if i wanted to run in bootcamp ala the above possibility.
just a theoretical. esp since apple is supposed to be shoehorning a quad core chip into the next macbook +pro's

who knows. but options are nice.

Scratch Cine was designed specifically to address a set of capabilities needed by artists and facilities working with Redcode RAW footage -the most important being realtime full-quality HD/2K playout via HD-SDI.

You can only buy Scratch Cine as a turn-key solution integrated with a highly tuned, specially optimized workstation.

Aside from the whole Windows-vs-OSX silliness, there is no MAC Pro, HP or Dell on the planet capable of the performance required to reliably decode and output .r3d at HD or 2K. The reason is simple. All those systems are too slow.

Also, obviously there is no solution for HDSDI output via NVIDIA Quadro on the MAC right now anyway.

It's great that Scratch runs in Bootcamp, but frankly, without full hardware support. it's a mostly just an academic endeavor. You won't be able to do much beyond simply conforming your r3d stuff. And there are other tools for that which might be more cost-effective on a MAC.

Cheers,

Adam
BOXXlabs

Gunleik Groven
04-27-2008, 02:53 PM
17 500 dollares baby

So I guess they changed their mind, then...

Sanjin Jukic
04-27-2008, 03:26 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/scratch_detail.jpg
There is no R3D conform option in the SCRATCH evaluation (it is disabled and see on the above picture) and I unfortunately could not test it.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/scratch_macbookpro17.jpg

But there is an option to process or to export 4K DPX files you were cutting in FCP (imported in SCRATCH via FCP XML/EDL) that you could collect them for example using Macbook Pro on external SATA drives (on how many it's depend on your project size). Of course it takes time to process but don't forget that just 3 years ago computers were not powerful like today. And DI was also done on those slow computers looking from today's point of view.

Or imagine that you are making your project in the middle of concrete or any other real jungle and just from one box that is in this case MacBook Pro you are able to edit, grade, conform and to deliver in the final DXP files that are ready to print on film.
And only on Apple Intel hardware you can cross OS just in one box.

I call it AppleREDBox.

Lucas Wilson
04-27-2008, 03:55 PM
...You can only buy Scratch Cine as a turn-key solution integrated with a highly tuned, specially optimized workstation.
...

Hey Adam,

Jumping in for a second...

This is not correct. You can buy SCRATCH-CINE as software-only!

But you are correct that without the hardware support that enables the realtime output, it is mostly an academic exercise.

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Lucas Wilson
04-27-2008, 04:05 PM
There is no R3D conform option in the SCRATCH evaluation (it is disabled and see on the above picture) and I unfortunately could not test it.

But there is an option to process or to export 4K DPX files you were cutting in FCP (imported in SCRATCH via FCP XML/EDL) that you could collect them for example using Macbook Pro on external SATA drives (on how many it's depend on your project size). Of course it takes time to process but don't forget that just 3 years ago computers were not powerful like today. And DI was also done on those slow computers looking from today's point of view.

Or imagine that you are making your project in the middle of concrete or any other real jungle and just from one box that is in this case MacBook Pro you are able to edit, grade, conform and to deliver in the final DXP files that are ready to print on film.
And only on Apple Intel hardware you can cross OS just in one box.

I call it AppleREDBox.

Hey Sanjin,

The "REDCODE" box in Process that you highlight doesn't actually affect what you can and cannot conform. If you have the "Edit" and "Media Layer" parts of SCRATCH, then you have the capability to conform.

I see in your snapshot that you have "Edit," and if you can load R3D clips at all, then you have "Media Layer."

So... you actually do have the capability for a full R3D conform. : )

Best,

Lucas

Curran Giddens
04-27-2008, 04:11 PM
This is not correct. You can buy SCRATCH-CINE as software-only!


Hmm.... I won't ask how much it is for the software-only version (I know it's against the rules).

Has anyone tried a PC Quadro SDI (4600 or 5600) card with Scratch on a Mac Pro running XP using bootcamp?

I know the card wouldn't work while in OSX, but it should work just fine under XP, right?

Adam Glick
04-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Hey Adam,

Jumping in for a second...

This is not correct. You can buy SCRATCH-CINE as software-only!

But you are correct that without the hardware support that enables the realtime output, it is mostly an academic exercise.

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA



my bad...

Jason Diamond
04-27-2008, 07:54 PM
i agree and completely understand there is no realtime performance under anything but the pre-sold or approved config.
if in my workflow i dont have the need to output 2k HDSR tapes then having a non-realtime but stronger than RedCine alternative is appropriate for me and my facilities workflow was all i was asking about especially if i wish to maintain a tapeless workflow.

i appreciate everything both Assimilate and Boxx is doing to make this process as affordable as possible but a software only/non realtime version thats better than the free RedCine is still a viable product in my eyes regardless of platform or workstation.

Sean
04-27-2008, 09:06 PM
So...is there a ScratchCine software-only version currently for sale? Or not yet? How much is it? Seems to be a subject of some debate, which makes me think it's still not for sale?

Sanjin Jukic
04-27-2008, 11:09 PM
Hey Sanjin,

The "REDCODE" box in Process that you highlight doesn't actually affect what you can and cannot conform. If you have the "Edit" and "Media Layer" parts of SCRATCH, then you have the capability to conform.

I see in your snapshot that you have "Edit," and if you can load R3D clips at all, then you have "Media Layer."

So... you actually do have the capability for a full R3D conform. : )

Best,

Lucas

Hey Luki,

I'm just watching tutorials on video and report later what I've learned about conform, process and output in my SCRATCH academic exercise.

Seth Larney
04-28-2008, 01:37 AM
I just wanted to backup laguun on this one. Mac's ARE PC's now... meaning, the hardware inside is what determines it's speed. If you build a PC with better specs, it will outperform the Mac and vise versa.

What bugs me about what Bob said is that it comes from that old school mac-head attitude.

Ever heard this one ?

"What do you mean, Mac's crash ?!"

Sorry, couldn't help myself :shiftyph34r:

Seth Larney
04-28-2008, 01:40 AM
Who gives a crap? You buy whatever computer you need to run what you want to run. If you want to drive a car, buy a car. You want a high-performance racecar, you soup it up. For running REDCODE at 1/2 rez high for realtime color correction and output, a souped-up PC does the trick. A Mac does not. Period, end of story.

As soon as a Mac does that, then there will be more options. Right now, there is only one, and it isn't built in Cupertino.

There are plenty of places to start an OS flame war. This isn't one of them.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

So say we all :ninja:

(Did I mention I was a Battlestar Galactica nerd ?)

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 03:47 AM
Guys,

at the moment I am enjoying to work with Scratch 4.0 (evaluation)

on my MacBook Pro 17" 2.4 GHZ Intel Core Duo + Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT.

I call it RED-FCP-Scratch-MacBook BOX.

More later with a description of the whole concept.

Lucas Wilson
04-28-2008, 08:53 AM
So...is there a ScratchCine software-only version currently for sale? Or not yet? How much is it? Seems to be a subject of some debate, which makes me think it's still not for sale?

I actually posted this awhile ago, but threads sometimes get lost...

SCRATCH-CINE is for sale. It is list price US$17,500 software only.

We have worked very hard with hardware vendors like BOXX to put together bundles we know work and work well. We are selling a lot of the bundles right now, but you can also buy sw-only.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Jason Diamond
04-28-2008, 09:03 AM
very interested to hear your results.

Jason Diamond
04-28-2008, 09:05 AM
if i buy the SW only 17.5k version now and decide at a later date i finally need the HW performance/options can assimilate then sell me the HW for the remaining price on the bundle? :detective2:

Sean
04-28-2008, 09:20 AM
I actually posted this awhile ago, but threads sometimes get lost...

SCRATCH-CINE is for sale. It is list price US$17,500 software only.

We have worked very hard with hardware vendors like BOXX to put together bundles we know work and work well. We are selling a lot of the bundles right now, but you can also buy sw-only.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Luki. Couldn't find that info on Assimilate's site.

Lucas Wilson
04-28-2008, 10:42 AM
if i buy the SW only 17.5k version now and decide at a later date i finally need the HW performance/options can assimilate then sell me the HW for the remaining price on the bundle? :detective2:

Since we don't sell the HW, I'd say that would be up to BOXX... ; )

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Jason Diamond
04-28-2008, 11:12 AM
Good to know! maybe Boxxy Boxx can chime in a make a possible future someday customer potentially happy and non sad.

Adam Glick
04-28-2008, 11:48 AM
Hi Jason,

If you would like to contact me off-list, I will make SURE that you get the "friends of BOXXlabs Special Discount" whenever you are ready to seriously consider buying.

Cheers!

Adam
BOXXlabs
aglick@boxxtech.com

Jason Diamond
04-28-2008, 12:48 PM
thanks for responding so quick!
i have a shoot tomorrow adn out of town for rest of week.
will contact you next week. thanks for the offer.

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 03:35 PM
This is my first full test using Scratch to conform 4K DPX files that is done on

Apple MacBook Pro 17" 2.4 GHZ with Nvidia GeForce 8600 graphic card.

The test consists the following steps:

1. Shoot on RED and record your footage on CF card or RED Drive.

2. Offload, also backup shots and get your R3D files in MacBook Pro.

3. Open FCP and set your project sequence at QT proxy resolution 512x256.

4. Import QT_P proxy files from R3D folders.

5. Cut your footage.

6. Add a sound and music if you have it already prepared.

7. Export EDL.

8. Close your project and quit FCP.

9. Launch Windows XP from Booth Camp.

10. Launch Scratch.

11. Set up new Scratch project (in this case with 4096x2048 resolution), Media and Export Directories.

12. Load FCP EDL file in the Scratch Construct.

13. Start with Player.

14. LUT - load if you have one.

15. Edit - you can do it if it is an additional need or correction.

16. Matrix - a full set of CC tools for grade a footage and if you would have Tangent Wave you are also a real colorist.

With MacBook Pro's DVI out could even connect Barco XLM H25 (http://www.barco.com/VirtualReality/en/products/product.asp?element=2281) projector that is the first DLP™ projector

with a native wide-screen aspect ratio,native 2048 x 1080 resolution and light output

of 27 000 Center Lumen, the XLM is the most powerful projector available on the market today.

Just to be sure about your BLACKS.

17. Pipeline, Process and Confirm your footage in this case to 4K DPX 4096x2048 RGB 10 bit Lin.

18. Output on external drive(s) or SATA RAID because DPX files are huge and each frame/file is about 32MB.

Now your footage is ready with a full 4K resolution for a film or digital print.

And all this data driven workflow is done with RED camera, a couple of CF drives, MacBook Pro 17" 2.4 GHZ/Nvidia GeForce 8600, FCP 6.0.3 and Scratch 4.0.

4K acquisition and 4K delivery that is just simple and easy as it is.

Today's film auteur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auteur_Theory) is able to deliver in full 4K resolution the first version of his/her film out of Apple's MacBook Pro just within a couple of hours/days.

Is this amazing and is this a real digital film revolution?

Yes, it is definitely.

Terribly sorry Mr. Speilberg (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12368) but the future of movie making belongs to digital.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Scratch_Guides.jpg
Scratch Guides on MacBook Pro.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Scratch_Matrix.jpg
Scratch Matrix for color correcting and grade on MacBook Pro.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Scratch_Process.jpg
Scratch Process on MacBook Pro.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Scratch_Output.jpg
Scratch Construct Output on MacBook Pro.

The test on MacPro 3.0 GHZ, 8 core with ATI X1900XT will follow soon.

Andrew M.
04-28-2008, 03:43 PM
Very, very nice........ finally something works.
I just had good results with the Quadro 3600M on Dell.
See my post.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12793

Couldn’t make it working though on 8800M in 4K only in 2K and with the warning errors in the log files.

What ver. of 8600M driver do you have on your Mac?

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 03:49 PM
Very, very nice........ finally something works.
I just had good results with the Quadro 3600M on Dell.
See my post.
Couldn’t make it working though on 8800M in 4K only in 2K and with the warning errors in the log files.

What ver. of 8600M driver do you have on your Mac?

The latest driver Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT for XP.

Andrew M.
04-28-2008, 03:53 PM
So you are running on Mac XP?!
I loaded latest for 8800M 174.31 and it doesn't work well, full of Pixel Buffer size errors and blue screen in the view port when 4K is scaled to fit the view port.

How XP driver for PC can work on Mac?

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 04:03 PM
How XP driver for PC can work on Mac?

It is The Intel® Core™ Duo processor and Apple managed with Boot Camp software to run both systems from one partitioned drive.

Andrew M.
04-28-2008, 04:11 PM
So Boot Camp alows you to go on the hrdware driver level, didn't know that.

Can you change 8600M to 8800M on your Mac?
I just changed 8700M to 8800M on Dell and it works 50% faster but I still have this problem with Pixel Buffer.
Such a nice fast card this 8800 and I have to stick to Quadro 3600.

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 04:22 PM
Can you change 8600M to 8800M on your Mac?


Not so sure but I have to make a research about it.

Sanjin Jukic
04-28-2008, 11:20 PM
Also I would like to add that I'm not affiliated with or working for RED, Scratch and Apple.

I am totally independent RED user.

The main purpose of this test is to show how a data driven 4K workflow is simple, easy of use and fast with RED R3D files.

Also I wanted to show that all workflow is possible to do it just from the one box even a laptop in this case MacBook Pro.

This test was not about equipment that is suitable for use with SCRATCH®, a benchmark and the results, performance, a storage system, etc...

At the end it is not in my hands to make any influence and decision in the name of RED, Scratch or Apple.

Gunleik Groven
04-29-2008, 01:53 AM
:)
Happy that you're happy, S!

BUT I am curious about render and playback times.
If this workflow (to 4k or rather 2k in my world) should be of any use, I'd need full DPX render in a reasonable speed... As the turnaround (timewise) on productions is usually quite slim.

Sanjin Jukic
04-29-2008, 02:01 AM
:)
Happy that you're happy, S!

BUT I am curious about render and playback times.
If this workflow (to 4k or rather 2k in my world) should be of any use, I'd need full DPX render in a reasonable speed... As the turnaround (timewise) on productions is usually quite slim.

I mastered in 4K DPX and then I could go down to 2K, etc...

Also you can do one reference movie in a smaller size to show your customer.

Probably you should ask Assimilate or Boxx for a proper hardware solution (in that case SCRATCH runs on a separate PC only).

Gunleik Groven
04-29-2008, 02:04 AM
Well, I'm into that... and checking out other solutions.
Still have some time to decide...

But gigs are coming in quickly

Sanjin Jukic
04-29-2008, 02:11 AM
In the next 10 to 12 months SCRATCH will remain probably as the fastest and the most efficient R3D data driven workflow.

So if you are now in a hurry there is no other address to ask then SCRATCH.

Gunleik Groven
04-29-2008, 02:16 AM
Or go traditional DPX... even though I'd be surprised if there didn't pop up other RAW solutions earlier...

Thing is that I don't think they all will be equal, by far. What will differenciate them is how imagedata is processed after the initial development. Scratch sure looks like it has a good selling point here, but there isn't anything to compare with either...

The big hurdle with thr DPX workflow are the lacks in RC... RC with Crimson would be a good idea if RC was bugfree and could send color/render info to Redline... But as Jim has stated today - all the tools are rewritten with build 16...

Working online with DPXs is a very well established workflow, and Lucas has (AFAIK) stated that WITHIN SCRATCH (I do understand that that's what he is referring to, so don't bomb me... :) ) these two workflows give the same results qualitywise. The disadvantage is of course that if you need to go back to the development stage of the raws, you have to go through all the steps again. Still quicker/cheaper than to go back to the lab and scan your negative, though...

Just pondering here and really appreciative of your finds!

Gunleik

Sanjin Jukic
04-29-2008, 03:24 AM
Just pondering here and really appreciative of your finds!

Gunleik

Maybe SCRATCH CINE (http://www.assimilateinc.com/scratchcine.html) is a solution for you?!

Also I just wanted to show to others and to myself that today the R3D workflow

can be really easy and fast (of course if you have a budget to pay for it).

Of course that doing it on MacBook Pro is a bottom line and doing it on

equipment that is suitable (REDBoxx) is a top of the line approach.

Gunleik Groven
04-29-2008, 03:39 AM
ScratchCine does not fit my needs, unfortunately, but thanks.

Lewis-M Soucy
04-29-2008, 07:20 AM
Say you don't need to return to film, so no use of 4K finish, but you shoot 4K anyway because of the amazing quality...

Okay. You just need to go on TV (commercial, music video, sitcom, whatever...)...

Is there an easy workflow that can be ALL done in FCP Pro (from cutting to grading)? Like sampling down in SD?

Can someone explain please? A lot of us are going to do that... I don't have my cam yet (July ;)) so I can't test anything...

Thanks

Gunleik Groven
04-29-2008, 07:25 AM
That's very possible, but hardly the topic of this thread.

The apple workflow forum is full of advices

Terry Wester
04-29-2008, 11:04 AM
In the next 10 to 12 months SCRATCH will remain probably as the fastest and the most efficient R3D data driven workflow.

So if you are now in a hurry there is no other address to ask then SCRATCH.
I think and hope you are right.:)

We are dropping a lot of cash on a full Scratch/DI suite right now.

Sanjin Jukic
04-29-2008, 11:20 AM
I think and hope you are right.:)

We are dropping a lot of cash on a full Scratch/DI suite right now.


I think you are safe with SCRATCH even longer that I said before.

Jason Diamond
04-29-2008, 06:19 PM
the main issue is figuring out the best way to retain the use of the RAW data when finishing in any format be it film/SD or HD.
right now 'Scratcheenie' is the cheapest possible way to do that as far as i can tell.

No offense to Assimilate but hopefully that will change when the SDK is available and another company decides to make a product at either a lower price point with specific features and/or broader platform support (and yes i fully understand the reasons Scratch of any flavor is not on a mac).

but thats all we got right now.

Sanjin Jukic
04-30-2008, 10:55 AM
Reality Check:

About 96% RedUsers would need HD, SD and all other formats below that for a distribution.

The highest quality of distribution in that area that would something finished

mostly on 1080p HD BLUE-RAY Disk and it needs a color sampling of 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 even.

They should be the most of them FCStudio/Color users.

About 4% RedUsers would need print to film.

For a print to film and 4K/2K digital cinema distribution where they would

need color sampling 4:4:4 , 4K DPX 10 bit Lin files, etc.

Here at this point they should be a real SCRATCH users.

Don't forget that is just PRINT TO FILM or DIGITAL 4K/2K DISTRIBUTION.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That maybe comes SCRATCH CINE that would be something to cover all sort of broadcast distribution need(s).

Stacey Spears
04-30-2008, 11:37 AM
1080p HD BLUE-RAY Disk and it needs a color sampling of 4:2:2.

Blu-ray is an 8-bit 4:2:0 format.

Johann Schulz
04-30-2008, 11:38 AM
Sanjin, I value your posts, and I'm in that 96% group at the moment. But this is the great thing about the RED that's available: It's busting down those barriers set by corporations solely in touch with holding back technology in order to safeguard future profits: slow releases, basic upgrades at a snails-pace. Jim seems to be juggling so many items at the moment he makes the circus man with the bowling pin, the scissors, a torch, a chain saw and an ice-cream cone look like the school yard putz.

However, analists (;>) say Blue-Ray will soon die, too. How can consumers consume RED high-end products? My point is, the company is becoming very affordable with the new cam, and the post flow will have to follow. They need a seemless workflow; cross-platform and cut-rate. Of course, as Jim recently said, "Don't forget, we're 2 years and four months old." Ay, Captain!

And I apologize for not being technical enough. This will surely change when I exchange my left arm for a RED ONE camera (mounted)!

Lewis-M Soucy
04-30-2008, 11:38 AM
I agree. I think there has to be an alternative to Scratch, whiche beyond it's value and qualities, is way out of the 'indie' Red statement and budget. We need a full FCP suite workflow that can reach distrib for everything under 4K or 2K... Don't get me wrong, I love Scratch, I saw it work, it's the best for Red footage, a great dev partner, but that's for Soderbergh's pockets for now... Please Assimilate, make a (Mac) Scratch LE for FCP users for all formats down from 2K! (or is it called "Color"?...)

:innocent:

PS: Hey, we've been tough and demanding on Red, we should burden Assimilate in the same way! :construction:

Gunleik Groven
04-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Scratch is the sole tool out there for RED RAW today.
That will change when the SDK comes out (Build 16, remember)
What that implies, we don't know yet, but it looks like all the major players have internal versions of RedRAW support running, eagerly waiting to pull the trigger.

So: If you have a project, shoot now, cut, see what's available when you need it, Buy.

Gunleik

Sanjin Jukic
04-30-2008, 12:16 PM
Blu-ray is an 8-bit 4:2:0 format.

Could be,

I'm just researching.

But anyway A MASTER of the project should minimum at 4:2:2 DPX/Cineon 10 bit Lin and with 4:4:4 should be at the best.

Whatever 4K, 2K, 1080p, 1080i, 720p, SD PAL, SD NTSC, Web video, iPod, YouTube, etc...

Sanjin Jukic
04-30-2008, 12:49 PM
Sanjin, I value your posts, and I'm in that 96% group at the moment. But this is the great thing about the RED that's available: It's busting down those barriers set by corporations solely in touch with holding back technology in order to safeguard future profits: slow releases, basic upgrades at a snails-pace. Jim seems to be juggling so many items at the moment he makes the circus man with the bowling pin, the scissors, a torch, a chain saw and an ice-cream cone look like the school yard putz.

However, analists (;>) say Blue-Ray will soon die, too. How can consumers consume RED high-end products? My point is, the company is becoming very affordable with the new cam, and the post flow will have to follow. They need a seemless workflow; cross-platform and cut-rate. Of course, as Jim recently said, "Don't forget, we're 2 years and four months old." Ay, Captain!

And I apologize for not being technical enough. This will surely change when I exchange my left arm for a RED ONE camera (mounted)!

Ricopedra,

I'm working hard on all the ISSUES and (one day) we will WIN.

PSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff Brue
05-07-2008, 01:30 AM
Be very very careful about trusting a DVI output for correct color. Also what about scopes ? No the internal software ones don't count as you proceed to spit out illegal video.

Sanjin Jukic
05-07-2008, 10:44 AM
Be very very careful about trusting a DVI output for correct color. Also what about scopes ? No the internal software ones don't count as you proceed to spit out illegal video.

With my doing things all is a legal and no any illegal things, video or whatever..

Daniel García
05-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Ok Sanjin I have a question for you. My Expresscard Sata adapter for my MBP just arrived and this is what I'm testing now.

You have your source files in a esata raid, edit on FCP and then reboot on XP and conform/cc on scratch. So the bit I don't still get from this, is how do you bridge the filesystems? In which format do you create a crossplatform esata raid? HFS+? Does Macdrive for windows read raids? It has been kind of unstable for me.

Please explain this configuration to me. Thanks.


Also, regarding the discussion... I wanted to remind everybody that there was an announcement about future native R3D support in Color. Now imagine if the FCP sequence imported on Color by de-referencing the proxies and replacing them with the R3D's.
I know it's a big IF, and limited to 2K, but that'd be a pretty pretty neat workflow for many people, dontchathink?

Sanjin Jukic
05-11-2008, 11:02 PM
If you will be sharing the
hard drive between Mac and Windows operating
environments, you will want to follow these guidelines:
Mac OS X prefers that all partitions be the same
format, therefore only the first FAT 32 partition is
guaranteed to mount.
So you will need to reformat your drive from HFS+, the Mac Operating system to FAT 32.

Mac OS 10.5.x a.k.a. Leopard mounts any FAT 32 drive of any size.

FAT 32
FAT is an acronym for File Allocation Table, which
dates back to the beginnings of DOS programming.
Originally, FAT was only 16 bits, but after the second
release of Windows 95 it was upgraded to 32 bits, hence
the name FAT 32. In theory, FAT 32 volume sizes can
range from less than 1MB all the way to 2TB. It is the
native file system of Windows 98 and Windows Me,
and is supported by Windows 2000 and XP. When FAT
32 is used with Windows 2000 and XP, though, volume
size is limited to 32GB (by the Windows partition
utility, i.e. Disk Manager), and the individual file size is
limited to 4GB.

Use FAT 32 if:
You want to access your data on any Operating System
- FAT 32 is compatible with Windows 98 SE,
Me, 2000, XP, NT, Mac OS 9.x and Mac OS 10.x

Daniel García
05-12-2008, 01:20 AM
I use FAT32 for pendrives! I've had terrible headaches running against its limitations and don't use it in my hard disks anymore...
How are you avoiding the 4Gb limit? Using only dpx files you are ok, but don't you have r3d's bigger than that?

Also, do you mind if I ask you what raid level and number of drives you're using with the MBP? Are you using the silicon image utilities?

Seth Larney
05-12-2008, 02:44 AM
The RED also uses FAT32 on it's storage mediums so that both OSX and Windoze can read/write. The R3D's are split into (I think) 2GB chunks.

Seth Larney
05-12-2008, 02:47 AM
By the way, you can write to NTFS over Samba just fine from OSX.

Eg, if you have a Win2003 server box or similar running Samba, you can connect to it over a network via SMB and write files to it from OSX because the Windoze box is doing the actual writing.

Blair S. Paulsen
05-12-2008, 09:20 AM
I have a project in progress right now and I simply copied the footage to both the Scratch (PC) box and the Mac FCP rig. It used up twice as much storage space but I like having a back up anyway. Once the project is done I'll just archive the media to a cheap drive (or LTO) and shelve it. The upside is each system is managing bytes in its file format of greatest efficiency. IMHO FAT ain't phat.

Just one man's plan, YMMV.

Daniel García
05-12-2008, 01:21 PM
Hey thanks everyone for your answers. It seems the only risk of running against the FAT32 limits is actually if you render some kind of intermediate file, but what we are discussing here is straight r3d's, dpx's and quicktime reference files.
Very neat!

Simon Blackledge
05-22-2008, 11:42 PM
Format ya drive as NTFS and get NTFS for OSX.

Format in OSX disk utility as NTFS and use GUID

1TB Seagate NS Blackmagic speed test
HFS read 100 write 89
NTFS (with ntfs for osx installed) read 100 write 89

Putting my theory into practice and formatting the external raid as NTFS 4TB nxt and see if that works under both xp and osx. HBA is working under both.

My main issue is the refresh between modules in Scratch 3.9 with the 8800 in a macpro is soooooooooo slow... :(

Torrey Loomis
06-04-2008, 01:20 AM
Thanks Luki. Couldn't find that info on Assimilate's site.

Sean,

For reference, we have everything priced out here:

http://silverado.cc/shop/home.php?cat=117

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
Outfitter to the World's Foremost Apple Professionals
2600 East Bidwell Street, Suite 280
Folsom, CA 95630
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
tloomis@silverado.cc
http://www.Silverado.cc

Check out the Silverado 4k Market at http://www.silverado.cc

RedTec
06-05-2008, 08:57 AM
The Highend Scratch/Boxxx sellers on this thread are very quiet the last few pages of this threat. Please feel free to comment!! :spidy:

Ofcourse. a Realtime 4K R3D solution is great.
But the fact there is a 4K workflow on a dual Boot MacBook Pro is pretty awesome.
I think the scratch software only price is too much.
but i understand with the current R3D monopoly :ranting2:

Adam Glick
06-05-2008, 03:41 PM
The Highend Scratch/Boxxx sellers on this thread are very quiet the last few pages of this threat. Please feel free to comment!! :spidy:

Ofcourse. a Realtime 4K R3D solution is great.
But the fact there is a 4K workflow on a dual Boot MacBook Pro is pretty awesome.
I think the scratch software only price is too much.
but i understand with the current R3D monopoly :ranting2:

I guess I haven't read anything I felt the need to comment on. Nothing new here...

It is my belief that it will be a while before we see realtime, full quality (HD or 2K) playback or SDI output of native r3d clips from a Mac. And I don't see anything changing after the release of b16 with regard to this.

Not to start a flame war or fanboy agitation, but if you want to use Scratch (or Speedgrade for that matter)- and you need to go to out SDI, you will need to use PC.
If you want realtime HD or 2K, then you are further limited to the Scratch Cine option - which requires a specially tuned PC.

Fredrik Harreschou
06-06-2008, 03:32 AM
If you want realtime HD or 2K, then you are further limited to the Scratch Cine option - which requires a specially tuned PC.

You are confusing people with this statement. A full SCRATCH will have the same performance on the same hardware. And a lot more options and tools.

EDIT: Your post seem to imply that the "specially tuned pc" is only available for SCRATCH CINE. SCRATCH CINE is a sub set of SCRATCH with the same performance. Of course you know this ;)

Nicos Ambatzis
06-06-2008, 05:38 AM
Is there anybody tried to run Scratch Cine on a Mac Pro ????
Scratch advices to run it only in PC!!!! It's a shame, isn't it????

M Most
06-06-2008, 06:11 AM
Is there anybody tried to run Scratch Cine on a Mac Pro ????
Scratch advices to run it only in PC!!!! It's a shame, isn't it????

What is the point of trying to run something whose primary purpose is real time SDI output directly from the video card on a machine that doesn't support SDI output from the video card?

Besides, you are aware that Scratch is a Windows only product, aren't you?

Adam Glick
06-06-2008, 08:05 AM
You are confusing people with this statement. A full SCRATCH will have the same performance on the same hardware. And a lot more options and tools.

EDIT: Your post seem to imply that the "specially tuned pc" is only available for SCRATCH CINE. SCRATCH CINE is a sub set of SCRATCH with the same performance. Of course you know this ;)

Thanks Frederik - I guess I can see how this might be a little confusing.

My point is: without the special hardware, the value of Scratch Cine is greatly diminished. Its only purpose is for working with .r3d files -and without the "optimized" workstation, you can't get realtime playback.

I guess I am assuming that the folks here understand that the "full" Scratch seat doesn't require anything special in the way of overclocked CPU's. Standard dual CPU workstations (and qualified RAID storage & Quadro GPU) are all that's needed to use the full Scratch grading and finishing toolset for traditional DI HD/2K/4K pipelines (using DPX, etc).

Sorry for causing any confusion - that's the last thing we need here.

;)