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Jesse Maxwell
10-13-2014, 01:27 PM
Hello all,

First time shooting with Dragon and I noticed a LOT of noise when reviewing footage. Everything was shot at 800 ISO with a very decent lighting set up so footage should be crystal clear but it's not. When comparing to MX footage it seems Dragon has waaay more noise. Is it just me? Is there a way around this? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

David Battistella
10-13-2014, 01:35 PM
Welcome to reduser.

Can you post a link to some r3d snapshots?

Battistella

Dunkan Wolf
10-13-2014, 01:42 PM
Yes, this is a known issue with the new calibration of dragon, which is aimed more at highlight protection than low light. Before dragon was released to the public, they used a different calibration and OLPF... but it had some issues (red dots). With the release of user-interchangable OLPFs this should be fixed. Check out the Low Light OLPF.

Marcos Montenegro
10-13-2014, 01:48 PM
As a rule of thumb, blackshade on location with a Dragon when you reaach operational temperature. Also, DEB and ADD tools in REDCINE-X can help tremendously with any undesired noise. Do you know what OLPF the Dragon you had came with?

There is a LOT of information regarding this subject here in RU so please use the search tool as this topic has been beaten to death.

Gunleik Groven
10-13-2014, 02:16 PM
Sounds like you maybe haven't let the cam warm up to calibration temperature.

But if you could share an R3D snap, that would help us look into it.

Justin Gum
10-13-2014, 02:50 PM
I don't post here often, but I also used the Dragon for a few promotionals for our company and it exhibits heavy noise. Is there a good post software for denoising?

Preston Moss
10-13-2014, 03:42 PM
I don't post here often, but I also used the Dragon for a few promotionals for our company and it exhibits heavy noise. Is there a good post software for denoising?

Neatvideo is an excellent tool. You will want to do some tweaking for best results.

Jesse Maxwell
10-13-2014, 03:52 PM
Thanks for responding guys! I'm not sure which OLPF was used, I will ask my DP.

I've read that Red Cine X debayer helps to reduce noise but it takes a LOOOONG time to render the files. My plan was to edit the r3d files natively in Premiere Pro CC. I know many people render lighter formats and relink the files later but my computer handles r3d files just fine and it's a small project so I wouldn't want to bother. Working natively saves me a lot of render time! So is there some sort of Debayer option in Premiere that I can use while rendering the final sequence? Or some other solutions maybe?

Here's a few stills.. (it's a music video) For now I left color settings at Color Space REDcolor3, Gamma Curve REDgamma3. Both images have not been color graded in any way.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/JMaxwellMTL/Masters0_zpsae25d52d.jpg (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/JMaxwellMTL/media/Masters0_zpsae25d52d.jpg.html)

(http://s42.photobucket.com/user/JMaxwellMTL/media/Masters20_zps41bd3fae.jpg.html)http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/JMaxwellMTL/Masters0_zps2b15f96b.jpg (http://s42.photobucket.com/user/JMaxwellMTL/media/Masters0_zps2b15f96b.jpg.html)

Kemalettin Sert
10-13-2014, 04:17 PM
it doesnt help anything unless you share R3D. snapshots

Frank Hague
10-13-2014, 04:44 PM
Sounds like you maybe haven't let the cam warm up to calibration temperature.

But if you could share an R3D snap, that would help us look into it.

What does this mean? I don't believe I've done any such process yet with my Dragon. Have I been doing something wrong?

Gavin Greenwalt
10-13-2014, 04:51 PM
When your camera is running there are two little indicators down in the bottom called "CAL : T/E".

T & E should both be green. They stand for Calibration: Exposure and Temperature. When you blackshade you blackshade at a specific temperature and exposure duration (+/- half a second). When the camera starts up though the temperature "T" will be yellow or red. As it approaches "45" (or whatever you blackshaded to) the T will turn green. If you turn on the exposure check tool you can usually see the purple/noisy region of the image change quite a bit over the first few minutes as the sensor warms.

Marcus Struzina
10-13-2014, 05:16 PM
Jesse the reason to post an R3d snapshot is to establish if the problem is caused by underexposure or something else.
If you post an R3d snapshot ( created by clicking the Camera icon with R3d underneath it in the Redcine X viewer window)
then it is very easy to work out if the problem is caused by underexposure.
No doubt you know all this but, on set monitors, particularly when viewed in dark situations can be very misleading for working out exposure, the histogram
and the other in camera exposure tools are the easiest way to get a healthy exposure.

Justin Kirchhoff
10-13-2014, 05:20 PM
I'd like to add that if you are rendering native R3Ds out of Premiere that you want to check the "Use Maximum Render Quality" on the lower right portion of the render panel. This will ensure you are rendering out a Full Debayer of the R3D.

Jeremy Torrie
10-13-2014, 05:56 PM
Read a manual?

Daniel Stilling
10-13-2014, 06:00 PM
I have seen so many DP's that don't understand RED's way of recording an image underexpose severely footage, because they "feel" that the key light is bright and they will close down on the lens 1 or 2 stops, starving the sensor from light. This to me looks like a typical example, but it is conjecture unless you know the exact settings the camera and lens had for these particular shots...

Peter Granqvist
10-14-2014, 05:08 AM
oh my... em, I'm quite new to RCX and know where to find DEB - but where can I find the ADD tools... maybe I'm blind... or stupid... ????:bored:

Terry VerHaar
10-14-2014, 06:53 AM
I have seen so many DP's that don't understand RED's way of recording an image underexpose severely footage, because they "feel" that the key light is bright and they will close down on the lens 1 or 2 stops, starving the sensor from light. This to me looks like a typical example, but it is conjecture unless you know the exact settings the camera and lens had for these particular shots...


This.

Stop lights and goal posts are your friends. :smiley:

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 07:55 AM
I think it's important to realize that when you send your camera in for a Dragon upgrade, you are essentially getting a brand new camera, different sensor, etc.

while all the controls, body, powering it up, monitors, etc might be the same, the camera is not.

You really have to test it and treat it like a whole new camera because it behaves and responds differently. Just because it looks the same does not mean that it will respond exactly as MX did.

I have not seen an r3d but (and I only say this because there have been many threads like yours) but the problem might be one of three things.

1. Black shading calibration was not done at recording/operating temperature or at all.
2. The shot was underexposed (looked good on the monitor but r3d is actually underexposed) and the histogram is left leaning)
3. A combination of 1&2
4. The "noisy" shots were not recorded when the camera was not yet at operating temperature.

Your dragon probably shipped with the STH (skin tone highlight OLPF). This OLPF favours highlight detail and softer rolloff into the highlights the camera does not "hard clip" as the MX did. It means you can open up more when there is plenty of light and the camera won't have that hard top end clipping that MX did. It also means you have to be more careful in low light situations as with less light you can introduce more texture/grain/noise or whatever you prefer to call it. (I say this because film guys call it grain or texture, but video guys see it as noise).

So, a common thing on EPIC MX is that people have gotten used to protecting highlights by under exposing. The dragon is sort of opposite, you can rate and expose one stop over with good results. More like motion picture film.

RED is now also offering a LLO (low light optimized) OLPF that can be interchanged if you prefer to stay in the MX style of protecting highlights a bit more. This OLPF is cleaner in low light situations, but is not as bang on color accurate as the STH olpf.

cheers,

battistella

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 07:55 AM
oh my... em, I'm quite new to RCX and know where to find DEB - but where can I find the ADD tools... maybe I'm blind... or stupid... ????:bored:

ADD is in the export settings and only relevant for Dragon.

You're probably not blind or stupid! :)

Peter Granqvist
10-14-2014, 08:09 AM
mange takk gunleik... trodde ikkje eg var dumt...:beer:

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 08:12 AM
mange takk gunleik... trodde ikkje eg var dumt...:beer:

:)

Det er en egen ADD eksport for stills i hovedvinduet ved siden av snapshot knappen

:)

Peter Granqvist
10-14-2014, 08:22 AM
thanks again gunleik... but in which way does ADD help with noise....???

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 08:28 AM
Short answer: "An incredible amount"
Longer answer: By looking at the frames before and after in addition to the frame at hand when calculating an image.

It is a resource-hog, though and is mostly for online purpose.
DEB is easy on the processing.

Neither DEB nor ADD should be "on" by default, in my opinion, BTW.

They're "good tools to have"

Peter Granqvist
10-14-2014, 08:30 AM
well, thanks... help appreciated... :thumbsup:

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 09:42 AM
DEB is a checkbox in the latest version of RCX.

It stands for: Dragon Enhanced Blacks and it only works on Dragon footage.

It specifically reduces red speckled noise in the shadow areas of footage shot on the STH olpf.
It is an on/off switch applied in post if needed.

It is in the latest release of davinci resolve as well.
There is no render penalty with DEB. On or off the render is the same.
works only if render is set to FULL or HALF res Premium

ADD - advanced Dragon Debayer

A predictive algorithm that analyzes before and after frames to produce the best possible frame. Mainly used in stills extraction but can also be used to cleanup motion footage. Render times vary from 20-40 seconds PER FRAME, depending on the system.

battistella

Peter Granqvist
10-14-2014, 10:23 AM
cheers dave... got it now...:thumbsup:

Jesse Maxwell
10-14-2014, 11:17 AM
Where would I upload R3D snapshots? I don't think photobucket will allow that format..

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 11:18 AM
Dropbox is excellent for this kind of thing.

Battistella

Jesse Maxwell
10-14-2014, 12:50 PM
Here's a dropbox link for r3d stills. Thanks for helping me out guys!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ozl9y6a5ra2dh4h/AAAy-0Qm4QcffYkeq4fcqU-ba?dl=0

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 01:15 PM
Thanks Jesse,

I took a look. Some of that stuff looks optical, like there was some filtration or some flaring, but the texture you are talking about is there.

Looking at the files in FULL with DEB helps and I would say it is recoverable.

I'd say that the two clips are underexposed by about a stop and a half.


I have a hunch as to what might be the contributing factor. With Dragon you have to Blackshade the camera after a FW upgrade and apply that blackshading. It also has to be blackshaded when the camera is at operating temperature. I keep mine at 62 degrees adaptive mode. Since this is Clip 23 and 27 of a magazine, I am going to assume the camera was up to temperature, so I think that this might be the factory setting.

Also, the clips are at a 23.98 TIMEBASE but a 29.97 framerate (slight slow motion) this would factor for about a third of a stop of light loss as well on the clips in general.

It looks like the closeup was shot on a slower lens or stopped down. I know it is low key lighting but still it's not a very wide histogram. You can still light for this intended lo key look with a fat histogram.

I'd say the two contributing factors are:

Black Shading calibration
Over cranking


My guess is the T/E indicators on the LCD display were not both green. Totally recoverable with DEB on if you are grading in Resolve for example.


Battistella

Jesse Maxwell
10-14-2014, 01:51 PM
Hey David,

In regards to the flaring, that's intentional so I don't mind what's happening there. That's why I included a few stills with flares and a few without.

I will relay the info about Blackshade to my DP. I know he had very recently done the upgrade to Dragon when we shot this clip so maybe he's still in a learning curve after breaking away from the MX.

You make a good point about the timebase difference, it may very well be a contributing factor.

As you say, it should be recoverable. I'll fix it in post ;) Sadly, I'm not using Resolve for this project. It was low budget so no extra money for a colorist. Instead, I'll do the grading myself in Premiere Pro with Colorista. Sounds kinda freaky, I know, but Colorista is actually a beast if handled properly.

As for exporting from Premiere, I guess there's no sexy Debayer option, I'll just click all the max render boxes and cross my fingers. If I'm really in a pinch I'll break out Neat Video and see how that goes.

Appreciate your feedback.

Cheers.

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 01:58 PM
If you're delivering up to 2k, Resolve is kinda pretty extremely free (given that you are used to it)...

luigivaltulini
10-14-2014, 02:00 PM
Jesse,
I agree on what David says in all.
Add more if you can shoot at 6k and if you shoot in low light always try to increase the ratio of 5: 1 REDCODE, this helps.
I made the flight a grade, there 'nothing to worry about, I usually use davinci and not REDCINE-x, I feel better and I can do everything at once including denoise in real time.
I tried to bring the clip to 2000 iso, used a, lut fuji and a bit of neat video ..
I am sure that having more time you can do better;) took me 5 minutes.
Matt makes you a much cleaner and better grade, if you listen to us :)
I'm in a hurry :(


Best wishes for your project;)


http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p787/gigignopechegno/test/A001_C027_08136Z0001965F00090375_zps1cf6a344.jpg (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/gigignopechegno/media/test/A001_C027_08136Z0001965F00090375_zps1cf6a344.jpg.h tml)

http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p787/gigignopechegno/test/A001_C027_08136Z0000890F00090250_zps3db3bb6f.jpg (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/gigignopechegno/media/test/A001_C027_08136Z0000890F00090250_zps3db3bb6f.jpg.h tml)

http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p787/gigignopechegno/test/A001_C023_0813HO0000000F00090000_zps360a9d65.jpg (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/gigignopechegno/media/test/A001_C023_0813HO0000000F00090000_zps360a9d65.jpg.h tml)


http://i1351.photobucket.com/albums/p787/gigignopechegno/test/A001_C027_08136Z0000000F00090125_zps16f66b71.jpg (http://s1351.photobucket.com/user/gigignopechegno/media/test/A001_C027_08136Z0000000F00090125_zps16f66b71.jpg.h tml)

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 02:10 PM
Thx Luigi!

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 02:15 PM
If you're delivering up to 2k, Resolve is kinda pretty extremely free (given that you are used to it)...

Resolve 11 is uhd delivery as well. :)

Gunleik Groven
10-14-2014, 02:20 PM
Oh my... There you go!

David Battistella
10-14-2014, 02:20 PM
No worries Jesse,

theres lots of of workflows and styles. I like the flares, they are an ice look. You will find that when you hits the dragon with a bit more light everything just pops.

if you render out full ,after grading and down converting to 2k or hd, I doubt it would be as noticeable as downscaling will also downscale the grain. Good luck with the project. Looks like fun.

Battistella





Hey David,

In regards to the flaring, that's intentional so I don't mind what's happening there. That's why I included a few stills with flares and a few without.

I will relay the info about Blackshade to my DP. I know he had very recently done the upgrade to Dragon when we shot this clip so maybe he's still in a learning curve after breaking away from the MX.

You make a good point about the timebase difference, it may very well be a contributing factor.

As you say, it should be recoverable. I'll fix it in post ;) Sadly, I'm not using Resolve for this project. It was low budget so no extra money for a colorist. Instead, I'll do the grading myself in Premiere Pro with Colorista. Sounds kinda freaky, I know, but Colorista is actually a beast if handled properly.

As for exporting from Premiere, I guess there's no sexy Debayer option, I'll just click all the max render boxes and cross my fingers. If I'm really in a pinch I'll break out Neat Video and see how that goes.

Appreciate your feedback.

Cheers.

Medavoym
10-14-2014, 02:35 PM
Hi!

Out of curiosity...

I know that DEB is designed specifically to deal with the problems introduced by the Skintone/Highlight OLPF.

Is it possible to use it on footage shot with the Low Light OLPF? Obviously, there would be fewer red dots/specks with the Low Light OLPF, but would DEB make that footage even cleaner? Is it even possible to apply it on LL OLPF footage?

Thanks!

Brandon J.F.
10-14-2014, 03:07 PM
Hi!

Out of curiosity...

I know that DEB is designed specifically to deal with the problems introduced by the Skintone/Highlight OLPF.

Is it possible to use it on footage shot with the Low Light OLPF? Obviously, there would be fewer red dots/specks with the Low Light OLPF, but would DEB make that footage even cleaner? Is it even possible to apply it on LL OLPF footage?

Thanks!

Absolutely, yes. It can help at high ISOs.

Phil Holland
10-14-2014, 03:08 PM
Hi!

Out of curiosity...

I know that DEB is designed specifically to deal with the problems introduced by the Skintone/Highlight OLPF.

Is it possible to use it on footage shot with the Low Light OLPF? Obviously, there would be fewer red dots/specks with the Low Light OLPF, but would DEB make that footage even cleaner? Is it even possible to apply it on LL OLPF footage?

Thanks!

I have been conducting experiments on this front along with the litany of other things I'm up to.

One thing I've found that DEB is useful for with the LLO OLPF is handling certain super saturated colors where detail is seemingly lost. DEB can bring a little bit of tonal and chromatic separation to some of those situations. Things like neon lights or specular highlights on say a wet street.

Björn Benckert
10-14-2014, 03:09 PM
Jessie, I took a look and...

- At iso 6400 your histogram starts to look good. So I would say this material is exposed for noise / I would say at least 3 stops under.
- When I balance the colors I get a light temperature of about 2900K which means tungsten, tungsten together with over or under expo will start to deteriorate quicker as the olpf and sensor of the camera is set to hold best for 5600K.
- Also when the colors are balanced the blue lensflare gets pushed so that brings up a lot of noise.

But all in all I find it possible to rescue especially if you toss both DEB and ADD on it and if it's going to a HD finnish. then the I would say the noise is nothing but nice texture :)
I took a screen dump of the shot with the exposure brought up and then another one with a curve pushing down the blacks. it does not look pretty or anything but just to show where the the histogram would have landed with 3 times the amount of light... as you see there is still no peaking in the shot. Dragon can be a bit deceiving I think, basically do not look at the screen look at your goal posts and stoplights, for a shoot like this the exposure would be the best right below where the stoplights turns off then it might look very bright on the screen but you would have the cleanest picture possible, as it is now you have 3 stops less.

Edit: Better link to screen dumps here saw that the attachment got a bit small :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/108703124@N02/15538067895/

Ignacio Aguilar
10-15-2014, 11:19 AM
- When I balance the colors I get a light temperature of about 2900K which means tungsten, tungsten together with over or under expo will start to deteriorate quicker as the olpf and sensor of the camera is set to hold best for 5600K.


Well, according to my own testing, to get the cleanest images from Dragon (OLPF v2) you have to set it at 4100-4200 kelvin. That's where I find the blue and red channels similar in terms of noise, and it's less noticiable.

Jesse Maxwell
10-20-2014, 05:52 PM
Thanks all for the info and comments! It's been a huge help!

Cheers :)

egon touste
10-21-2014, 03:14 AM
Sounds like you maybe haven't let the cam warm up to calibration temperature.

But if you could share an R3D snap, that would help us look into it.

ha .. you're kidding..

i know its true.. when did we become slaves to our cameras ..

what i'd like is to shoot instantly,

on a positive note, Dave Coffins DCRAW can now decode redcode files thanks to the opensource JASPER image library via it standard jpeg2000 decoder..

it can't load epic yet though, as epic j2k has some of the metadata removed it seeems (probably gets put back in during decode..

.. so looks like the red one is future proofed as an archive format anyway.. ;)

Thomas Koch
10-21-2014, 01:43 PM
I've found that running the camera with quiet record adaptive or adaptive. Record some footage and the sensor heats up faster. Then format the card when it's up to temp.

Brian Merlen
10-21-2014, 05:30 PM
well if you hate black shading i know of a camera you don't need to do it on...only 40k and up depending which model :)

but to get raw on it your talking big bucks...



ha .. you're kidding..

i know its true.. when did we become slaves to our cameras ..

what i'd like is to shoot instantly,

on a positive note, Dave Coffins DCRAW can now decode redcode files thanks to the opensource JASPER image library via it standard jpeg2000 decoder..

it can't load epic yet though, as epic j2k has some of the metadata removed it seeems (probably gets put back in during decode..

.. so looks like the red one is future proofed as an archive format anyway.. ;)

Frank Hague
10-26-2014, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Gunleik Groven http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/redfox/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1428777#post1428777)Sounds like you maybe haven't let the cam warm up to calibration temperature.


But if you could share an R3D snap, that would help us look into it.
What does this mean? I don't believe I've done any such process yet with my Dragon. Have I been doing something wrong?

I'm still confused about this.

David Battistella
10-26-2014, 02:00 AM
I think what Gunliek means. And I can not speak for him, is that perhaps the camera was not brought up to operating temperature before recording images.

when you read a recipe, and it says "preheat oven to 200degrees" before you put the cookies in to bake them. Well, same concept. Get the camera sensor up to temperature before recording.

It's not that you can't record images before the sensor is warm, you might get less than perfect results.

Battistella

Dan Rizzuto
11-20-2014, 09:03 PM
but what if you edit 4K natively? does one have to export from redcine-x to use the DEB setting or can you use it in FCPX where you have access to change some of the RAW settings?

Mike P.
11-20-2014, 09:47 PM
Dan, not yet. It likely will happen eventually, but for now DEB is only RCX, so you'd have to round-trip/render/transcode out of RCX...

Gunleik Groven
11-20-2014, 10:36 PM
I think what Gunliek means. And I can not speak for him, is that perhaps the camera was not brought up to operating temperature before recording images.

when you read a recipe, and it says "preheat oven to 200degrees" before you put the cookies in to bake them. Well, same concept. Get the camera sensor up to temperature before recording.

It's not that you can't record images before the sensor is warm, you might get less than perfect results.

Battistella

Indeed, some of the real noisy stuff I've seen on Dragon (or managed to provoke myself) has been blackshade and/or operating-temperature related

Jim Hoffman
11-20-2014, 11:38 PM
Dan, not yet. It likely will happen eventually, but for now DEB is only RCX, so you'd have to round-trip/render/transcode out of RCX...

It's in Resolve as well.

steveszol
11-21-2014, 11:02 PM
I am also finding my dragon quite noisy. Even when exposing to a centered histogram at 800+ ISO and no lit up goal posts. Sometimes it so bad it makes me think the camera is f*ed. I shot something recently with the dragon and C300 and the stupid C300 had no grain. so I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Is the dragon really this bad in low light? Shouldn't grain just be black. Why is it boosting the low light areas?

And yes I have made sure the camera is black shaded and at the right operating temp and exposure and blaaa blaaa blaaaa

would love to get this sorted out asap.

Its hard to keep having to tell clients "No no we can remove that grain in post!"
My red one was usually good at 800ISO in any type of lighting.

Could it be something wrong with the camera or is there something I am not doing right?

Joseph Coleman
11-21-2014, 11:14 PM
Yeah, I've been exposing the Dragon with the SkinTone Highlight OLPF at 250 - 500 iso....I won't go any higher for my taste. I'm very much looking forward to the LLO OLPF. I really hope to see DEB in Premiere soon. Its a real pain in the ass to have to use RCX to get rid of the red blotchy noise that I've been running into.

Marc Wielage
11-21-2014, 11:47 PM
Its a real pain in the ass to have to use RCX to get rid of the red blotchy noise that I've been running into.
There are lots of good tools with which you can get rid of digital noise. I wouldn't necessarily say that what's in RedCineX-Pro for free is the best choice available.

Gavin Greenwalt
11-23-2014, 03:26 PM
People need to watch their compression ratios. A lot of people want to go to 6k so they're turning up comrpession as a result. "red blotchy noise" sounds like compression aggrevated noise. Try shooting a comparison between 3:1 and whatever compression ratio you're normally shooting as a test and see how much of your noisiness is because you're wanting to shoot 6k and cranking your compression up to like 10:1 to keep file sizes the same as 5k.