TV spots - shoot 24p or 30p

[Michael Schrengohst]

TV spots - shoot 24p or 30p
What are most RED shooters shooting spots at?
If 24p - what are you doing to deliver a 29.97 tape?
HD? I have heard some HD spots are delivered 59.94 - why??
Thanks

[Statusfilms@yahoo.com]

Red Guy- Damn, you and I are in the same boat.. I admit it.. This confuses me too. They tell me, and I forget.

Here is what I did in the past- I was shooting on the JVC GY HD-100. I would use the JVC deck and go out analog and capture the footage via the AJA Kona LH card at DVCPro HD 59.94.

What was really cool, was that I had a film look and it behaved perfect for all through post.

In some ways, I was just winging it, but it is now time for me to totally get a grip on this whole frame rate thing.

I will see what they post for you too. It will be interesting.

My question is what is the best version for all possible deliveries? Say you have no idea what the indie film is going to do. You know you want to place it on DVD for sure, but whats best for broadcast, and maybe doing a possible film out? My guess is 24 frames straight and let the editor timeline drop the frames.

[dave_garcia]

29.97 and 59.94 are delivery formats.

Typicaly your origination format will go through a conversion process for delivery.

We currently shoot 24pa (DVCPROHD 1080i) When it is ingested FCP pulls 23.98 progressive out of the interlaced stream. Usually we are delivering SD still so our 23.98 edit goes out of the HD timeline through a Kona 3 which puts it into a 29.97 720x486 format usually incorporating a down convert crop or letterbox.

Footage shot at 720 24p, the kona needs to be set to 720 59.94.

As I understand it, 59.94 is a delivery frame rate associated with 720p. If you think about it, 720 at 60 fps is roughly the same as 1080i at 30fps. These are just delivery formats-as in a standard which TVs can display. I think they basically have to correspond to the 60hz of US AC.

Now, there is a case for shooting higher framerates for faster motion to make it smoother, but I don't think that's what you are talking about.

Delivery on a 59.94 tape would probably be Varicam originated DVCPROHD (so 720 59.94)

I hope that makes sense and is what you guys were trying to figure out.

[Nathan Beaman]

Red Guy- Damn, you and I are in the same boat.. I admit it.. This confuses me too. They tell me, and I forget.

Here is what I did in the past- I was shooting on the JVC GY HD-100. I would use the JVC deck and go out analog and capture the footage via the AJA Kona LH card at DVCPro HD 59.94.

What was really cool, was that I had a film look and it behaved perfect for all through post.

In some ways, I was just winging it, but it is now time for me to totally get a grip on this whole frame rate thing.

I will see what they post for you too. It will be interesting.

My question is what is the best version for all possible deliveries? Say you have no idea what the indie film is going to do. You know you want to place it on DVD for sure, but whats best for broadcast, and maybe doing a possible film out? My guess is 24 frames straight and let the editor timeline drop the frames.

Damn - maybe you guys should set aside some cash to consult an editor, or post engineer ;)

[Disco Legend Zeke]

LIVE OR FILM?

The optical system of the human brain seems to clock right around 44 Hz. Anything slower has artifacts. If film is projected with a single shutter, we have time to process the interruption, and we see flicker. That problem was solved by the triple bladed shutter, 18 FPS was fine for watching, but it had another artifact that we have come to know and love as the "FILM LOOK."

The brain gets to process each frame almost two (at 24) or 3 (at 18) times.

When we increase the frame rate to 60 in film or video, we get the "LIVE" look.

Shooting at 30 (39.9..) will still give you the filmic quality, but your output streams for ATSC will be 60i a simple rescan of frames. Removing a rate conversion step from the workflow will increase workflow speed and reduce the artifacts. (If 60P is available, you will be able to get a live feel at the price of double bandwidth.)

On the other hand, a feature that is destined for 35MM might as well be shot at 24. 35MM will not dissappear overnight. As 4K projection penetrates the market, we may have the ability to adjust the projection frame rate for artistic purposes, perhaps even in real time.

24 FPS Saves 20% on your hard drive space.

2 FPS saves you 93% on hard drive space, and $17,500 on a camera body, but the computer time to do the tweening weill eat all the sugar out of your budget.

[Mark Crabtree]

Most Ad Agencies want 24p. We of course shoot 23.976. I like 30P for pans but 30 does sharpen the image on a TV display and is significantly less cinematic. Cinematic being the most like a movie.

[androbot2084]

So why does a TV commercial have to be shot in 24p? Whats's wrong with 30p or 60p ? It's a TV commercial not a movie isn't it?

[Chris Kenny]

Higher-budget commercial spots have traditionally been shot on 35mm film, virtually always at 24 frames/sec. So 24p doesn't just say "movie" to people, it also says "expensive TV commercial".

[mmost]

Higher-budget commercial spots have traditionally been shot on 35mm film, virtually always at 24 frames/sec. So 24p doesn't just say "movie" to people, it also says "expensive TV commercial".

That's not quite accurate. Many spots have been shot at 30fps over the years, and continue to be. The most likely candidates for this are things such as car commercials, where motion can be an issue. However, a lot of spots for things such as skin products and anything involving liquids that pour are often shot at 30fps for various creative reasons.

[Disco Legend Zeke]

..shot at 30fps for various creative reasons.

...exactly, mmost.

We should not let the format dictate our choice of frame speeds, we must study the results at the various rates and select the most suitable yo our artistic goal..

...unless you are doing a commercial, then you probably gotta listen to the agency anyhow. The aganciea may also have some McCluanistic (sp) theories about the increased brain involvement with low frame rate image.

[Mark Allen]

My company shoots almost exclusively 30p now because I hate interlacing with such a great passion. The big advantage to 30p is that when/if they ever do LCD projection, they do not have to worry about interlacing. You might say "well, they could project the 24p version." Well... true, but it never happens in the real world... just like you could use the 24p version for the web... but how many spots do you see on the web which have nasty interlacing issues? Many. So, I encourage clients to be safe and do 30p. Up to them though.

[Mat@imageWork]

Hi guys,

I know it seems sometime a little bit confusing. But...

First of all 29.97 and 59.94 are just a technical issue with luminance delay of network broadcast. I don't want to enter in a big "how it is" but don't worry with that too much.

In 35 mm, at 24P, the film transfer add a pull down. Each 3 progressive frame you have two "jitter frame" to go at 29,97. Interlace frame is just the way the signal is send to people. The cathodic way...

For you it didn't change anything. If you shoot a commercial at 24P for NTSC broadcast, then add a pull down at the end. You are saving 20% space and process. Then you will be at 29,97.

If you are broadcast on HD, then go for 30P. Because it's easy to get 59,94. Network ask most of the time HD at 59,94 because HD is broadcast most of the time for sport and sport are better at 59,94 (more accurate movement)

Get a film look isn't really different at 24P or 30P. It is more the way that you're dealing with your dynamic range and the lenses used, DOP, shutter speed, color grading.

So bascillay, shoot in progessive. 24 or 30 depends on the broadcast output for NTSC or HD. Don't forget to stay on drope frame, and everything gonna be allwright.

[bobbystone]

I think you guys are missing the point, or at least confusing some issues. NTSC television is broadcast at 29.97 frames per second. Those frames are split into two fields, which broadcast at 59.94 FIELDS per second. If you shoot 24 frames per second and telecine the film, the film will be played on the telecine at 23.98 frames per second and a 3:2 pulldown will be introduced. The 3:2 pulldown duplicates a frame across two fields so that the 24 frames can be mathematically divided into 30. That adds a subtle temporal "stutter" that's become synonymous with "the film Look"

People also shoot 30 frame film, and it too, will end up broadcast at 29.97. Shooting 24 vs 23.98 is only an issue when recording double system sound because if you shoot at 24 when you telecine, the film will slow down by .01% and go out of sync All of these apply equally to shooting progressive video as well, if it's going to end up as NTSC.

[mmost]

I think you guys are missing the point, or at least confusing some issues. NTSC television is broadcast at 29.97 frames per second. Those frames are split into two fields, which broadcast at 59.94 FIELDS per second. If you shoot 24 frames per second and telecine the film, the film will be played on the telecine at 23.98 frames per second and a 3:2 pulldown will be introduced. The 3:2 pulldown duplicates a frame across two fields so that the 24 frames can be mathematically divided into 30. That adds a subtle temporal "stutter" that's become synonymous with "the film Look" .

3:2 pulldown has little to do with the look of film. What is significant is the 24 frames per second shooting rate, because it produces less fluid motion and more motion blur per frame. 3:2 pulldown can, at times, exaggerate this a bit, but material shot at 24fps and projected without any additional pulldown anomalies still displays the same characteristics. That's why when you see film projected on a theater screen it retains that same feel (even though it's double shuttered, essentially showing 48 images per second, with each of the 24 original frames projected twice to reduce flicker).