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View Full Version : Scarlet Dragon - 6k - 24fps?



Jesse Conti
11-04-2014, 09:54 PM
What are the chances of a potential S-Dragon firmware update that allows you to shoot not only 12fps burst, but at a mere 24-25fps? Even if it were to have a RC of 8:1-12:1, It could mean a ton... Yeah, it shoots 6k burst (great for pulling stills), but for usable motion capture it's not in the cards. So, I feel for it to be branded as a 6k tool, we should have the bare bones fps. Would RED see this as a serious loss or gain for the S-Dragons to Epic Dragons in the market, is it even a thought in the developers minds as a possibility in the foreseeable future? I feel like it's a pretty reasonable and worthy request... :-)

Any thoughts?

Daniel Pearson
11-04-2014, 09:58 PM
Scarlet MX never got 5k 24fps, so I doubt Scarlet D will ever get 6k 24fps...

Andrew Gentle
11-04-2014, 11:07 PM
Extremely, extremely slim. If they could bump the 48 fps 5K to 50 fps, allowing HDRx at 25 fps, that would be awesome, from my point of view. I was hoping that the MX Scarlet would get 50 fps 3K FF or HD but that never happened.

Ryan Hamblin
11-04-2014, 11:38 PM
why does everyone want more than what they asked for?

Anthony Berenato Jr
11-05-2014, 04:11 AM
why does everyone want more than what they asked for?

I kind of agree with you. I'm just excited to shoot 5K, minimizing the size of grain, giving some very generous options to stabilize down to 4K, and gaining some very usable over-cranking options. I can't think of a project that I'd be working on where I'd actually need 6K, and if I did - I'd rent the body under the production budget. It's a beautiful looking camera either way.

I'm sure we'd always be interested in something more, but I feel like I'm getting my money's worth of an upgrade.

Glen Powell
11-05-2014, 05:25 AM
I see no reason why a firmware update couldn't enable 1Million FPS at 80K on the Scarlet Dragon + RED should send me a rebate cheque with the update.

It's just good business for them to do so - and if they don't!!!! I'll tell all 30 people who follow my Twitter account to buy another camera system...

/Sarcasm

In all seriousness - Not a week goes by where there isn't a post / thread where someone asks why their Scarlet can't do what an Epic does; while completely ignoring that a Scarlet costs half the price.

Scarlet has always been and will always be the little sister to Epic. RED needs to keep enough frame rates / features distant between them so Scarlet doesn't canabalise Epic sales.

End of.

Dunkan Wolf
11-05-2014, 05:38 AM
There's a hack that allows 25fps on scarlet MX so who knows...

Glen Powell
11-05-2014, 05:43 AM
There's a hack that allows 25fps on scarlet MX so who knows...

25fps in 5K?

Eric Santiago
11-05-2014, 05:46 AM
I must be really old cause Im living the dream with 4K and Scarlet :)

Glen Powell
11-05-2014, 05:52 AM
I must be really old cause Im living the dream with 4K and Scarlet :)

Me too Eric, me too...

Medavoym
11-05-2014, 05:55 AM
Extremely, extremely slim. If they could bump the 48 fps 5K to 50 fps, allowing HDRx at 25 fps, that would be awesome, from my point of view. I was hoping that the MX Scarlet would get 50 fps 3K FF or HD but that never happened.

6K not really needed, but the above would be great.
We need to have the people living in PAL countries happy as well!

Suresh Kara
11-05-2014, 06:46 AM
+1000000000000000

Jesse Conti
11-05-2014, 08:30 AM
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my S-Dragon and have no real complaints on it's functionality or performance. Dragon color and the new OLPFs are stunning. The ability to shoot 5k up to 60.92fps is fantastic. I was just trying to see if anyone felt that it was a possibility. Let's face it, who wouldn't love an extra thousand lines of resolution to play with...? With the E-Dragon shooting up to 100fps at 6k, I wouldn't think that shooting at 24-25fps on it's little sister would seriously threaten its quarterly sales... Again, not a complaint.. Just a question paired with my thoughts that I figured I'd share. Cheers!

Anton Shavlik
11-06-2014, 02:20 AM
For similar data rates to the scarlet dragon's current highest data rate formats (5k 8:1 24fps for example) you'd be shooting at 12:1 at 6k 25fps, or barely squeeze in 11:1 at 24fps.

Brett Harrison
11-06-2014, 02:54 PM
Does anyone know the computational relationship between fps, compression and active sensor region? Does anyone know the hardware differences between Scarlet and Epic?

Perhaps it's just a software limitation. In which case it would be perfectly reasonable for RED to release a firmware update for 25fps at 6K along with a bill for 5K USD.

Nick Morrison
11-06-2014, 03:55 PM
Does anyone know the computational relationship between fps, compression and active sensor region? Does anyone know the hardware differences between Scarlet and Epic?

Perhaps it's just a software limitation. In which case it would be perfectly reasonable for RED to release a firmware update for 25fps at 6K along with a bill for 5K USD.

I've always understood the differences between Epic and Scarlet to be HARDWARE, not Software.

I believe RED has mentioned numerous times over the years the BOARDS are different.

One has more HP. One has less.

At least that's the way I understand it.

Brett Harrison
11-06-2014, 04:06 PM
I've always understood the differences between Epic and Scarlet to be HARDWARE, not Software.

I believe RED has mentioned numerous times over the years the BOARDS are different.

One has more HP. One has less.

At least that's the way I understand it.

That is my understanding also, Nick. My deadpan was set too high on this one.

Aria Khosravi
11-07-2014, 05:37 AM
25fps in 5K?

I'm not sure if it happened to other REDusers but he might be talking about the time my Scarlet #00746 glitched out on beta firmware and did that, up to 40fps actually at horrible compression ratios. It was very unstable and inconsistent, and RED patched it pretty instantaneously. I wouldn't call it a hack, as I didn't do anything to cause it, other than shutting the cam down accidentally during a firmware update -- Not recommended. There's a thread on it from around NAB time of course but I won't link because we don't need to start this discussion again. Jarred himself reached out at the time suggesting that it was not good for its hardware, not for prolonged recording, at least. Indeed, the camera ran extremely hot when this happened. I don't want to speak for him but I got the idea that RED had attempted to squeeze 5K/25 out of the Scarlet, but at the time they couldn't "safely" push the camera that far.

Regardless of the reasons, people asked for 5K 24fps on Scarlet-MX countless times and never got it, so you can count on not getting 6K 24fps on Scarlet Dragon. From the original game plan for Scarlet-D (unique sensor design, separate from Epic Dragon, that was to achieve 5K without cropping) to the current iteration (same Dragon sensor with less processing power, achieves 5K via center crop of 6K FOV), RED has never promised anything other than 5K max for Scarlet, so don't expect them to deliver it. Sure, it'd be great to have it, but as I learned firsthand in April, the cameras are designed to achieve the advertised specs and nothing more when it comes to processing power. While the Scarlet Dragon may be capable of squeezing out 24/25fps, it would require pushing the hardware to the very edge of its limits if its design is anything like the MX cameras. If you ask me, it's not practical. You may get 25fps burst at some point, but not sustained.

Also worth noting that Scarlet MX had a noticeably slower read/reset time than the Epic MX, making rolling shutter artifacts unusable when it glitched its way into 5K, just more evidence that the cam wasn't designed for those framerates. I don't know if this is still the case with Scarlet Dragon, or if they've matched the rolling shutter read/reset between the two cameras. I know it's pretty quick on Epic Dragon. Not Amira quick, but at least Alexa quick.


Just my opinion/speculation on the matter.

Terry VerHaar
11-07-2014, 09:24 AM
I have yet to hear of any actual "hack" to RED firmware.

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
11-07-2014, 02:41 PM
Someone got close but then bricked the camera upon unlocking. I'm sure Red would take it to court if it went public.

I totally agree with this thread, Scarlet always gets punked on resolution. Unfortunately this is nothing new its been happening since 2012 and I don't see it changing.

My guess is that if Scarlet did 6K @24 or MX version did 5K @24 then most people wouldn't buy an Epic? That seems to be the logic.

Personally I think it's bad to not run FF at speed, makes it hard for Scarlet users to get rentals since Epic always wins and its a complete waste of beautiful sensor technology. Scarlet can't even become a true B-CAM because of this.

I sold my Scarlet and currently saving up for an Epic, this being one of the reasons. If Scarlet-X MX went 5K 24fps I would have kept it.

Epic and Scarlet should work with each other not against one another.

this thread is nothing new, but I feel you guys on this one.

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
11-07-2014, 03:12 PM
The only way Red could solve this issue would be to Bump Scarlet Specs/Price to Epic then make Epic a little bigger just a wee bit thats a full on production camera with easy to get to ports, wifi, wireless video and most importantly Hi-Speed to compete with Phantom like 200-500fps. Kinda like a Meizler Module built into the Epic with overclocked chips.

This would have to be for the next Sensor after Dragon and consumers will have more affordable options with the current cameras on the market.

Red needs a camera that everyone can own and shoot on thats small but packs a punch like current builds, still implies DSMC. Then a Hi-End camera targeting a Pro market, all the bells and whistles to be a true production camera. Scarlet will be great cause you can build it up and down being the most flexible then a Epic camera to compete with Alexa Sony & Research. Cover both markets.

It's interesting to see how these companies go about marketing their lesser cameras. The Arri Amira is doing really well, all the guys who invested in them are seeing great returns not to mention a solid build. Main difference between that and the Alexa is RAW capabilities. On the flip side the Alexa-M did bad b/c its not self contained which is why Red has a huge advantage.

Sony goes from F65-F55-F5-FS7-a7S. But they sell to a broader market from Pro to Pro-sumer and consumer.

I hear similar complains that we have as Scarlet owners over with the kids who went with an F5 instead on an F55. If I remember their complain was no 4K recording and wasn't there some hack for it, then Sony did an 4k update?

Dylan McLaughlin
11-10-2014, 11:43 AM
Would be nice to just be able to use the full sensor for 1.25x crop factor. Looks so nice. 1.5x is a bit too much using Canon EF Lenses in my opinion.

Phil Moreton
11-10-2014, 02:49 PM
I've been very happy with my Red Scarlet MX and I've shot many films, commercials and promos with it. 4K was always enough resolution for clients, and with a lot of cases any more resolution that I offered turned them off due to data and time.

I have more issues now trying to sell shooting on Epic Dragon at 6K compared to Scarlet MX at 4k.

I did always wish that I would be able to shoot 5k back then, just so I didn't get the 1.73x crop when shooting 4k on the Scarlet MX.
Having the Scarlet Dragon at a 1.5x crop is part of a welcomed upgrade. 50fps at 5KFF would be nice tho. +1 on that for Pal regions.

I think it's important to keep the separation between Scarlet and Epic in terms of crop, resolution and compression. It offers a clear choice which I think is needed when it comes to the rental markets, pricing and clients budgets.

Robert Ruffo New
11-10-2014, 09:02 PM
The feature set of Scarlet Mx and Dragon is already ridiculously high for ridiculously little money. It already destroys the competition. This whining is unbecoming.

Jesse Conti
11-11-2014, 08:19 AM
I think people are mistaking "whining" for shared opinions and thoughts...