Why not shoot on RED?

[Steve Phillipps]

There's plenty of reasons out there to shoot RED, and we all know what they are, and on paper it seems like a no-brainer, and yet there are many productions, particularly for HDTV who are not leaping at the chance, and it begs the question "Why Not?"
So here's a list of issues that may be putting people off, some of which may be valid and some not, and maybe some of you can set them straight and set these waverers' minds at ease:

1: You can't get hold of 'em
2: Post production is tricky and will cost money and time as it'll put my editors out of their comfort and knowledge zones
3: Dynamic range seems quite limited so for outdoor, high contrast work where lighting can't be controlled it's not the best option
4: It has rolling shutter artifacts

These are a few of the things I've heard people pondering, they are others, so are they real issues or not? There are so many good things such as resolution, fps, upgradeability, lens compatability etc. etc. etc., so please persuade these doubters to jump!

Steve

[michael zaletel]

I think you have to add to this the biggest reasons of all.

1. Politics
2. Resistance to Change
3. Fear of being blamed
4. Strong sales relationships

-shooter

[Steve Phillipps]

Yes, correct! I've definitely come across these thoughts too. So how do we convince the doubters?

[Gunleik Groven]

Show them how it works?

[michael zaletel]

Yes, correct! I've definitely come across these thoughts too. So how do we convince the doubters?

Well...doubt is only half the battle. I have been in sales all my life and have learned that even if you overcome all of a buyer's fears about a new/alternative product and remove all doubts that the new product is better, cheaper, faster, you may still have a long way to go before you get the purchase order.

For starters, who really pays the bills? Is it the DP, the director, the cameraman? Not typically, and for those people life is just easier if they can focus on their craft. Even if you prove to them their life/craft/job will be easier or better with new technology, they still just don't care enough to stick their necks out with the money folks.

The bigger problem though is that these competing camera equipment manufacturers have some of the best sales people in the world. These men and women didn't get to where they are (selling $500,000 cameras) by being mediocre at their craft. They are like super-lawyers, super-psychologists and super-golf-buddies all wrapped into one irreplaceable package. Ever heard the phrase "He/She can sell Ice to Eskimos". That's really what RED is up against. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. Sales people drive business, they drive the world economy pretty much, and the sales people we are talking about here are the best and the brightest. You just don't come on their playground and take away their kickball without a prolonged fight.

Best thing Red could do at this point (if they can resolve production and delivery issues) is to hire some of those "commissioned" salespeople at whatever cost. Many companies think that because demand outstrips supply, there is no need for high-dollar commissioned sales professionals, that is a classic business mistake that could cost dearly if not rectified very soon. (Look no further than the airline industry for the eventual effects of undervaluing sales agents. Pretty soon it's all price and all commodity)

Everyone keeps talking about Build 16, Build 16, it's not Build 16 that's going to switch Steven Spielburg over to RED, it's Tom Smith or Veronica Hunter (ficticious names) VP's of sales from Sony or Panavision. And once Mr. Spielburg switches (and others with the big money like him) you just keep hiring the best salespeople from those companies as they exodus-in-mass and then you hold the high ground for 50 years. That is, until someone else with newer/better technology finally realizes that they need to hire YOUR best salespeople.

-shooter

[Jeff Coatney]

Well...doubt is only half the battle. I have been in sales all my life and have learned that even if you overcome all of a buyer's fears about a new/alternative product and remove all doubts that the new product is better, cheaper, faster, you may still have a long way to go before you get the purchase order.

For starters, who really pays the bills? Is it the DP, the director, the cameraman? Not typically, and for those people life is just easier if they can focus on their craft. Even if you prove to them their life/craft/job will be easier or better with new technology, they still just don't care enough to stick their necks out with the money folks.

The bigger problem though is that these competing camera equipment manufacturers have some of the best sales people in the world. These men and women didn't get to where they are (selling $500,000 cameras) by being mediocre at their craft. They are like super-lawyers, super-psychologists and super-golf-buddies all wrapped into one irreplaceable package. Ever heard the phrase "He/She can sell Ice to Eskimos". That's really what RED is up against. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. Sales people drive business, they drive the world economy pretty much, and the sales people we are talking about here are the best and the brightest. You just don't come on their playground and take away their kickball without a prolonged fight.

Best thing Red could do at this point (if they can resolve production and delivery issues) is to hire some of those "commissioned" salespeople at whatever cost. Many companies think that because demand outstrips supply, there is no need for high-dollar commissioned sales professionals, that is a classic business mistake that could cost dearly if not rectified very soon. (Look no further than the airline industry for the eventual effects of undervaluing sales agents. Pretty soon it's all price and all commodity)

Everyone keeps talking about Build 16, Build 16, it's not Build 16 that's going to switch Steven Spielburg over to RED, it's Tom Smith or Veronica Hunter (ficticious names) VP's of sales from Sony or Panavision. And once Mr. Spielburg switches (and others with the big money like him) you just keep hiring the best salespeople from those companies as they exodus-in-mass and then you hold the high ground for 50 years. That is, until someone else with newer/better technology finally realizes that they need to hire YOUR best salespeople.

-shooter

An all too often overlooked fact of business. I think we RED Users need to become these people by simply proving what we already know. Show 'em.

[PeterM]

It´s much more simple
Red is not ready.
First of all. I like this cam we and our partners buy totally 3 of them.
In principle you have 4 scenario.
1. Multimiiliondollar productions. In that case the cost for renting a cam is a very minor factor in the production, but every day where a cam makes trouble becuse of bugs and limitations cost more money than even to buy one. So most people dont want risk this and go with more expensive but proved ways.
Remember RED is only 4 month on the market, byside of very few from 2007
2. Industry film. Its nearly the same. We just doing a shooting in a factory.
Any delay will cause a extrem trouble. EG only preparing a production line for shooting cost thausends of $ every our.
3 HDTV comercial and tV productions.
In that case the magic 4K is often overcounted. regarding to the normal distribution way there is no big difference by 4K or 2K.
4 The really low budgt industry and comercials.
At the end there is even not a very significant dirfference even to a EX1 or other cams in the area, but the workflow is more proved.
And at the other way Red folks often makes the cam to a belief not realize that this cam has its limitations and needs of workarounds.

In summary its simple a question of trust. It needs time (more than 4 months) till a system will enter the market and most of the decision makers are not technical freaks.
I am sure all of this will change during the next 18 months. And, but I think the red team knows this very well, a lot of professionals even at the moment not take a Red for the current project have a strong eye on the development of this cam and the future products
Ans lets make this very clear. This development must be done with the RED during the next 12 months. Than the way for Epic will be free.
Summary2
kepp always in mind.
Either hollywood production or simple low cost production and even ENG are very conservative views.
If Red dont stop on their great way and if you, we show the results to our clients including comiucating the shortcommings--
everything may change.
Edit:
I just want add one thing.
When Nikon (yes i am a fan of this company) show out its first DSLR, everybody said " nice try"
Even not 10 years later more than 90 % of the comercial still shooting is digital.
Just my simple opinion on the 1 of may

[Vlad Martins]

I think a lot of people are afraid to embrace new systems, DP's are used to the same cup of tea every morning until something weird or different comes up which they need time with it to understand. being open to learn is also a good thing.

[Dylan Reeve]

The biggest real issues are the relatively untested nature of a RED workflow. It's difficult to sit down ahead of a shoot and say "this is exactly how we'll do it all, and we know exactly how to make it work faultlessly at every stage".

At the moment there are still many ifs, ands and buts in these discussions I think. Other workflows, currently, offer a more certain workflow. We all know exactly how to digitise a tape and edit. Likewise, there's no shortage of expertise on shooting and editing film. With RED there's still a lot up in the air.

Big issues now are probably:
- Data management - On set data backup, and file management at production office.
- Integration and application support - It mostly works in FCP, and can be squeezed into Avid, but the post workflow still isn't flawless or polished for any system.
- Finishing - The beauty of RED is it's RAW format, but the options for taking advantage of that are limited at the moment.
- Features and Bugs - Still being a Beta product there are still a few features missing (or that are likely to be improved) and a few bugs to consider also.
- Recording Options - Currently limited to 8GB CF or a Hard Drive, the current recording options are little limited for some users or applications.

Thankfully we know that all these things will improve, and will do so soon. With other products we tend to discover these sorts of issues and then just learn to cope, because once it's in the market, things don't usually change... But RED is being different there.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

so please persuade these doubters to jump!
Steve, I'm also an ethusiast, and I signed in, but why try and persuade everybody. If you're persuaded, ain't that just fine? It's like saying "everyone should drive a Ford? What do you care? I think it's cool others do their way. I think it's cool we have our little special way here! I'm not a camera fascist! And I think Red is doing really fine as it is. They don't adverstise, which is wise for now, and they don't need to... There isn't ONE person in this business I spoke to that didn't hear about this camera... And there is also a lot of people that criticise it and have little knowledge about it. So in clear, they got the good and bad of being a victim of their succes: believers and enthusiasts, and skepticals and anatgonists... It's business. Don't mix up enthusiasm and professionalism. This gear is not for everyone, yet. I know a national TV channel here that bought 2: their point is to test it, see how it works, the potential, and most, not be the last idiots to find out about it. They're not going tu use it yet, but they'll sure try and see where it goes... Let time do it's job.

First there was sound. Then color. Now Red.

Someone said once that sound movies would not work, not last, that it was a hype...

4 years ago, some said my short film script would not work. 4 producers turned it down. I produced it anyway. It made 85 international festival selection.

I trust myself just the same with this camera. It's going to be a priceless tool for me. I don't care about the rest. And by the way, if it hadn't been of Panavision in Paris, I would have never made my film. They were priceless to me. They became close friends ever since. We have lunch every month. They love my film. I don't even talk Red with them. They're really happy for me. And they don't see me as a "lost customer"...

And anyway, the big shady fellow behind all this is a very rich japanese man. He's the one in command of the sun and rain. It's like Mac. No matter how more friendly and clever they are, they still represent a very small percentage of computer users. Even then, that's all I can wish for Jim and Red...

And now, after years of war, Bill and Steve are working together... Maybe in 10 years they'll release a Panared? Or a Scarletalta?...

Then we should all be gay?! Or vegetarian?! Why? I like being a hetero-carnivore...

I don't like sushi. Never will. Go figure...

Just my 2 euros...

[Steve Phillipps]

Lewis, I'd just want to make the best pictures possible and think that it might be best woth RED rather than Varicam (partly because of faster frame rates, as well as higher resolution), but it's upto my producers rather than me what they use, and right not it Varicam or HPX2000/3000 and Sony 750s. It's very difficult to convince them that RED will fit in with their workflows and give them the pictures they want. Especially when I'm not 100% convinced myself!
It does matter to me though if I think I'm using a tool that's not showing my work to it's full potential.
Steve

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Get it... You have a point. You're right, sometimes you have to convince some people about some tools... Why not rent one, or have some owner come and do a test? I thought you owned one and were (sorry guys) one of those geeks that want to kill or rape or to the least mock anyone not redaholic yet... Which I am, but I try and keep a normal life on the side...

[Steve Phillipps]

Yes, that's what I am trying to do, have spoken to a rental house here in UK, and hoping to get my long lenses on the camera, record some real world stuff to a CF card, take it into BBC Post, and see what they can do with and how it fits in - it's the only way really as you say.
Steve

[Julian Banos]

Steve and Shooter:

I sell everyday the Red Camera, I have also sold many things in my life. Unfortunately things that I do not have my heart on. At the end of the technical discussion, this business is about emotions. It really is.

I agree that sales are motor of the business world. But not high-comission sales guys. RED should not give a penny (and I mean the amount) on comission. You are not selling "ice to inuits", you are selling tools to make films.

Sales pitch is simple:
Take your client to a movie theatre.

[Steve Phillipps]

Problem is Julian, that there's not a lot for them to see on RED at the movie theater at present! If there'd been 20 x 1 hour nature docs on Nat Geo HD or BBC shot on RED already then they'd be happy and wouldn't need convincing.
Steve

[Michael Brennan]

Problem is Julian, that there's not a lot for them to see on RED at the movie theater at present! If there'd been 20 x 1 hour nature docs on Nat Geo HD or BBC shot on RED already then they'd be happy and wouldn't need convincing.
Steve



BBC have yet to demonstrate that they have a will to use the highest or even second highest quality HD camera/recorder for their high end doc shows.

Politics even comes ahead of performance and price....
The larger and more centralised the operation ie producer/director/post under one roof, the more unlikely it is that decisons are made for the good of the viewer, because the DP/filmaker is kept at arms length.



Mike Brennan

[Michael Brennan]

Producer 101 is to not risk client's money on a new manufacturer with a new camera that is still under development to improve performance and fix bugs.


Give RED at least 6 months in the field with a stable build and "its still under development" hurdle will be overcome and RED will win wider support.
However other excuses will be made not to use it by those resistance to change or politically motivated.

Given REDs workflow and recording technology producers for years to come will put more weight on the opinion from the post house than DP on suitability of RED for a given project.


And sure there are exceptions to the rule.


Mike Brennan

[Mark Andersen]

Well...doubt is only half the battle. I have been in sales all my life and have learned that even if you overcome all of a buyer's fears about a new/alternative product and remove all doubts that the new product is better, cheaper, faster, you may still have a long way to go before you get the purchase order.

For starters, who really pays the bills? Is it the DP, the director, the cameraman? Not typically, and for those people life is just easier if they can focus on their craft. Even if you prove to them their life/craft/job will be easier or better with new technology, they still just don't care enough to stick their necks out with the money folks.

The bigger problem though is that these competing camera equipment manufacturers have some of the best sales people in the world. These men and women didn't get to where they are (selling $500,000 cameras) by being mediocre at their craft. They are like super-lawyers, super-psychologists and super-golf-buddies all wrapped into one irreplaceable package. Ever heard the phrase "He/She can sell Ice to Eskimos". That's really what RED is up against. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary. Sales people drive business, they drive the world economy pretty much, and the sales people we are talking about here are the best and the brightest. You just don't come on their playground and take away their kickball without a prolonged fight.

Best thing Red could do at this point (if they can resolve production and delivery issues) is to hire some of those "commissioned" salespeople at whatever cost. Many companies think that because demand outstrips supply, there is no need for high-dollar commissioned sales professionals, that is a classic business mistake that could cost dearly if not rectified very soon. (Look no further than the airline industry for the eventual effects of undervaluing sales agents. Pretty soon it's all price and all commodity)

Everyone keeps talking about Build 16, Build 16, it's not Build 16 that's going to switch Steven Spielburg over to RED, it's Tom Smith or Veronica Hunter (ficticious names) VP's of sales from Sony or Panavision. And once Mr. Spielburg switches (and others with the big money like him) you just keep hiring the best salespeople from those companies as they exodus-in-mass and then you hold the high ground for 50 years. That is, until someone else with newer/better technology finally realizes that they need to hire YOUR best salespeople.

-shooter

Why do really want everyone and they're cousin Ralph switching to Red. In my business, right now, shooting Red is an advantage over the competition. I am in no real hurry to persuade them to join the club.

[Jason Wingrove]

Post pain, yes sorry its still a major pain to post if you cut with avid.

[Johan Pabon]

Why do really want everyone and they're cousin Ralph switching to Red. In my business, right now, shooting Red is an advantage over the competition. I am in no real hurry to persuade them to join the club.
I agree! I don't mind others working with Sony, Panasonic or 35 mm.
I also think Red is a camera, not a religion. The camera will prove itself.

[Daniel García]

woah guys, I just read this:

http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/05/02/first-look-corey-haim-in-crank-2-neveldinetaylor-using-consumer-grade-cameras-to-shoot-the-film/


Interesting how they went for the HF10 instead of the HV20, I've been waiting for tests to check if you don't lose much quality by shooting to SD cards instead of tape.

Big surprise to read they won't use REDs for crank 2, we all thought these guys were sold on them!