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View Full Version : 4K over HDMI from Red Dragon ??



Bruce Schultz
12-19-2014, 05:37 PM
I'm posting this here because it seems to be a place where this type of question could be relevant.

I finished a job using a sony f55 camera and production supplied a Dell 4K monitor which we were able to easily hook up to the camera's HDMI output and view UHD live.

My question is: why can't Red implement HDMI 1.4a or 2.0 features in the Dragon brain HDMI output connector? Red Ray and the 4K Pro module don't cut it for ease of use, setup and cost.

sander kamp
12-19-2014, 06:22 PM
With the release of consumer 4k cameras like the GH4 I have been wondering the same thing. RED is releasing a 4K broadcast module but the price is $6.950,- and it only connects via 4 SDI connectors and adds bulk to the camera.

One thing I can imagine is that as the camera shoots in formats larger and smaller than 4k, debayering and scaling in realtime would be a challenge.

Troy Bakewell
12-20-2014, 03:30 AM
A 4k hdmi module would be awesome. We just need a 4k paralinx too.

Mark L. Pederson
12-20-2014, 04:18 AM
A 4k hdmi module would be awesome. We just need a 4k paralinx too.

It's coming. Qualcomm already spun a snapdragon based PCB - WITH LTE - http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/10/21/qualcomm-showcases-4k-lte-hdmi-tv-streaming-dongle/

Robert Berger
12-21-2014, 12:32 AM
A 4k hdmi module would be awesome. We just need a 4k paralinx too.

+1

New Movie and showreel in www.camlight.nl

Jeff Kilgroe
12-22-2014, 02:34 PM
Tricky thing with the RED DSMC system is that full RAW data is transferred within the camera and amongst the various modules. So a 4K HDMI module will still need to take the full resolution RAW stream and de-bayer and scale to a 4K image before encoding and sending out the HDMI. It makes the system infinitely configurable, but doesn't lend itself well to making affordable modules for common outputs. Hence why the +1 and other cheaper modules need to connect to the existing monitor outputs on the brain.

I was hoping that 4K HDMI output would come with the Dragon upgrade as part of the swapping of necessary components, but it seems that is something that couldn't be incorporated before the Dragon specification was finalized and readied for production.

I really wish the 4K Broadcast module also had an HDMI 2.0 port on it. Once again, HDMI 2.0 wasn't a final spec, nor were there any proper chipsets in sight, when the 4K Broadcast module was ready to go from prototyping to production.

Jake Wilganowski
12-22-2014, 03:02 PM
Well they should make one now. ;)

Blair S. Paulsen
12-22-2014, 06:12 PM
I like the idea of a 2nd generation Broadcast Module that adds an HDMI2 spigot. The quad 3G SDI can be converted to HDMI easily enough, but the converter just adds cost/power consumption/etc.

With so many lower end UHD/4K cameras offering live UHD/4K monitoring out of the box...

Cheers - #19

Ryan Hamblin
12-22-2014, 07:35 PM
Yeah its pretty crazy I can pipe 4k out of my GH4 that we bought for 1500.00 but can't get it out of my RED or anyone else without dropping some serious coin.

Paul E. McCarthy
12-22-2014, 09:01 PM
They need to make their own proprietary 7" recorder/monitor (Atmos Shogun) that can carry a lut and then they rule the raw and the editing codec world, or the Dp and Producer world.

Michael Tiemann
12-23-2014, 04:18 AM
I like the idea of a 2nd generation Broadcast Module that adds an HDMI2 spigot. The quad 3G SDI can be converted to HDMI easily enough, but the converter just adds cost/power consumption/etc.

With so many lower end UHD/4K cameras offering live UHD/4K monitoring out of the box...

Cheers - #19

Agree! Let's see this modular architecture actually give us newer technology faster!!

Dunkan Wolf
01-02-2015, 10:40 AM
Fewer people would buy the SDI module...

Leroy Jackson
01-06-2015, 07:54 AM
I was looking at Jeff's comment on the +1 module and such and got to thinking....... Well My Pro I/O module doesn't need to be attached to the HDMI port on the the camera. I guess the Pro I/O has it's own Debayering thing a ma jiggy inside it! I really wish they would put something like that in a module (4K output... even is it is slightly compressed:)

Jeff Kilgroe
01-06-2015, 12:50 PM
Yep, the Pro I/O module does its own de-bayer and downsample to 1080p/2K. Also why it's a $3750 module. The 4K Broadcast module does the same, and outputs at 4K/ UHD in addition to 2K/1080p. I think we're all just saying it's unfortunate that an HDMI output was not included and it would be nice to see an updated model that has HDMI 2.x incorporated. They could definitely make an HDMI 2.x 4K output module and wile I don't want to speculate on price, I think it would be cheaper than the 4K Broadcast module and possibly more in line with the Pro I/O or even cheaper than it; as they could probably sell a lot of these.

Jarek Zabczynski
01-14-2015, 05:57 PM
I'd buy one.

DJ Meyer
01-27-2015, 09:43 AM
I'd buy one.

Same here

Blair S. Paulsen
01-27-2015, 10:24 AM
The Broadcast module is a very welcome addition to the arsenal just as it is. SDI is the proper professional interconnect. To be clear - I am not complaining.

That said, when investing $7K in a module for live UHD output it would sure be nice to have a couple of HDMI 2.x ports on there in addition to the quad SDI to accommodate a variety of configurations and directly connect to the many HDMI only UHD devices on the market.

If further investment in Broadcast Module development is untenable due to limited sales forecasts I get that - just noting that it might find a larger audience with the HDMI taps, though it might still fall short of reasonable ROI.

Cheers - #19

Jeffery Anderson
01-30-2015, 03:01 PM
I do wonder if it would be as simple to flash the camera with new software to be able to DeBayer and compress to 4k ProRes(or maybe even 5k ProRes 4444xqfor Scarlet-MX owners)...

Also, I imagine that if it was a +1 Module could record a compressed signal - on-top of it's normal RAW, that would be a huge time saver for Productions... Basically if the +1 Module could apply LUT + Record Native Codec = instant dailies(and go strait to Post)

Phil Holland
01-30-2015, 04:25 PM
Timing in relationship to product development, cameras, and modules has been a bit of the problem here.

HDMI 2.0 was finalized not too long ago. The 4K Broadcast Module and obviously the Dragon brain were in the pipe before the spec and hardware was finalized as well.

While I wouldn't put it past Red to design something with HDMI 2.0 included in a module, I imagine it would likely happen in the next brain or even possibly through a camera upgrade itself.

Maik Müller
01-30-2015, 04:26 PM
Just to remind you of something what RED previewed a while ago: tethered recording over Gig-E. There is lots of potential, with live monitoring and streaming in full-res(!) over a laptop being one of the possible applications. Transcoding to 4k on a computer, with ROCKET-power and realtime-colorgrading? Should be doable. ;)

Yeah, thats not a module, but maybe a even better solution for some scenarios.

I hope RED gives access to that via their SDK.

Maik Müller
01-30-2015, 04:32 PM
While I wouldn't put it past Red to design something with HDMI 2.0 included in a module, I imagine it would likely happen in the next brain or even possibly through a camera upgrade itself.
HDMI1.4 can do 4k, up to 30hz at UHD and 24hz at real 4k.

The HDMI-chips in Dragons and maybe even MX brains might be capable of doing that. But the more tricky question is, can current brains internally debayer to 4k? The existence of the Broadcast-4k-module might be the answer to that.

Jarek Zabczynski
01-31-2015, 04:26 PM
Just to remind you of something what RED previewed a while ago: tethered recording over Gig-E. There is lots of potential, with live monitoring and streaming in full-res(!) over a laptop being one of the possible applications. Transcoding to 4k on a computer, with ROCKET-power and realtime-colorgrading? Should be doable. ;)

Yeah, thats not a module, but maybe a even better solution for some scenarios.

I hope RED gives access to that via their SDK.

So theoretically, couldn't there be an external recorder type device that takes the Gig-E input and is able to debayer that, record it to prores etc, and or, send out a 4k signal via HDMI?

Blair S. Paulsen
01-31-2015, 08:37 PM
I wonder how much latency would result from Jarek's theoretical pipeline? Measured at the image displayed from the HDMI spigot would it appear in sync?

There are a lot of valuable use cases possible with the GigE live out feed even if there is a little latency, and even more if there isn't...

Cheers - #19

Maik Müller
02-02-2015, 12:03 PM
So theoretically, couldn't there be an external recorder type device that takes the Gig-E input and is able to debayer that, record it to prores etc, and or, send out a 4k signal via HDMI?
Thats what i'm talking about, but i was thinking about a software-solution for all those (fast enough) new laptops with UHD-screens and HDMI2.0-ports or a "PC in a small box".

Dedicated device, doable, but way more complicated. Getting some chips to debayer RED-footage, with all the licences and a so on? ;)

Maik Müller
02-02-2015, 12:05 PM
I wonder how much latency would result from Jarek's theoretical pipeline? Measured at the image displayed from the HDMI spigot would it appear in sync?

There are a lot of valuable use cases possible with the GigE live out feed even if there is a little latency, and even more if there isn't...

Between this and the image you see through the brains HDMI/SDI or on the RED-LCD there will be a visible delay for sure.

Jeffery Anderson
02-03-2015, 11:15 AM
If haven't already see this:
http://www.red.com/store/products/rear-ssd-module

Here's the tethered recording
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?121670-Tethered-Recording-Sneak-Peak-IBC-(-and-Photokina-)

Be cool if this could be a wireless wifi thingy...