Lens test database

[Evin Grant]

I'm going to start testing various still lenses on my Nikon D2x which has an almost identical size and pixel count to the Red One. When I do get #199 I will begin to test cinema lenses and add actual Red frame grabs to that database. I'll include both web viewable and downloadable full res files. I'm going to try and keep the testing consice and consistent. I'll be doing this in my spare time so don't get antcy. I'd like to test at three different apertures and at medium distance and infinity. If any of you have suggestions for lenses you'd like to see or specific informaion you'd like me to incude please post it here.

I'll be starting with these Nikon lenses: (but give me some time)
17-35mm f2.8 AFS-D
28mm f1.4 AF-D
24mm f2.8 AF-D
35mm f2 AF-D (Newer formulation than AI)
50mm f1.4 AI
50mm f1.4 AF-D
60mm f2.8 AF Macro
85mm f1.4 AIS
105mm f2.8 AI Macro
135mm f2 AIS

This will not be a "Mesurbators" test, I'll post 100% crops but no trumpets or rescharts. I feel a subjective test gives a more useful indication of a lenses quality than pure numbers. I'm also open to testing annyone elses Nikon mount lens if you're curious how it stacks up. I'll test Canon FD lenses when I get the Red but there currently is no EOS camera with a dense enough sensor to match Red one.

Let the games begin.
I'll try to post the 50mm f1.4 this weekend.
E.

[Jared VanLeuven]

This will be a great resource. Thanks much, Evin!

[Akcelik]

thanks Evin! if you can get hold of a Voiktlander 12mm that would just make it even more special.

[Evin Grant]

Sorry Ace, I can't attach that lens to my D2x. Even though it has a mirrior lockup it's a pre-relese, so it goes back down immediately after the exposure. that means attaching that lens to my camera will essentially ruin both. We'll have to wait for Red One.

[chuck colburn]

Sorry Ace, I can't attach that lens to my D2x. Even though it has a mirrior lockup it's a pre-relese, so it goes back down immediately after the exposure. that means attaching that lens to my camera will essentially ruin both. We'll have to wait for Red One.

Wait for your RED camera and do the lens tests on it. Also do you have the proper lens test targets for the required tests? Or an eqvulanit sensor to record the results.

[chuck colburn]

Wait for your RED camera and do the lens tests on it. Also do you have the proper lens test targets for the required tests? Or an eqvulanit sensor to record the results.

I forget to ask . What is a "Mesurbators test" And also a "trumpet or rescharts"

Chuck

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Evin - that would be a tremendous service to this community. Thanks in advance and I promise not to be antscy.

[Poi Boy]

hey Evin,
If you get a chance and have them available can you include these manual lenses, 180 2.8,105 2.5, 20 2.8 , 35 2.0 and a 55 micro 2.8.
Aloha
-A

[Evin Grant]

Mesurbators are people who care more about the numbers than the pictures.
Numbers can help you determine if a lens resolves more but it tells you little about how the character of the lens might respond in diffrent situations.
I'm not intending to create an excell sheet of MTF graphs or LPM numbers.
Those can be found many other places on the web. Trumpets and res charts are the tools to measure resoution. I'm trying to create a call sheet of glass that you can refrence when you need either a particular look, or to fill a gap in your own arsenal. I'm starting with the glass I own plus what I'm buying for Red. I'll continue on from there.
My tests will still tell you if a lens is sharp and after looking at a few results you'll be able to see the differences yourself.
But sometimes you may want a softer lens for close ups and a crisp lens for wide shots. This has more to do with micro contrast than lines of resolved detail. That's why even though the Zeiss 50mm 1.4 has a higher rated resolution I prefer the Nikkor, it's smoother although not as smooth as the Leica M Summicron.

[chuck colburn]

Mesurbators are people who care more about the numbers than the pictures.
Numbers can help you determine if a lens resolves more but it tells you little about how the character of the lens might respond in diffrent situations.
I'm not intending to create an excell sheet of MTF graphs or LPM numbers.
Those can be found many other places on the web. Trumpets and res charts are the tools to measure resoution. I'm trying to create a call sheet of glass that you can refrence when you need either a particular look, or to fill a gap in your own arsenal. I'm starting with the glass I own plus what I'm buying for Red. I'll continue on from there.
My tests will still tell you if a lens is sharp and after looking at a few results you'll be able to see the differences yourself.
But sometimes you may want a softer lens for close ups and a crisp lens for wide shots. This has more to do with micro contrast than lines of resolved detail. That's why even though the Zeiss 50mm 1.4 has a higher rated resolution I prefer the Nikkor, it's smoother although not as smooth as the Leica M Summicron.

Hello Evin,

I see now said the blind man.

Chuck

[chuck colburn]

Hello Evin,

I see now said the blind man.

Chuck

Wait, I'm not quite sure what a trumpet is.

Chuck

[Poi Boy]

as he picked up his hammer and saw.
-A

[Evin Grant]

This is a Trumpet...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD2X/Samples/Compared/nikon_d2x-res-cropped-003.jpg

[chuck colburn]

This is a Trumpet...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD2X/Samples/Compared/nikon_d2x-res-cropped-003.jpg

Evin,

Thank you,

Chuck

[Jarred Land]

Evin is a great asset to the Reduser community, most of you know of his extensive work on Dvxuser, it will be great for him to kick off the article section of Reduser.

[REDHKSC]

JVC's new HD camera ( HDSDI output ) is with Nikon lenses as well.

Stewart

[Ace]

Evin, thanks in advance for the contribution to the red collective mind.


JVC's new HD camera ( HDSDI output ) is with Nikon lenses as well.

Stewart

Thats an interesting form factor..

[Greg Voevodsky]

thanks Evin. You rock!!!

[Don Woods]

Evin very nice. Thank you very much for your hard work. Can't wait to see what you come up with. I know you are a Nikon guy, but what about us poor SOB's in the canon camp. I know no one has said if and when an EF mount will be made. But if so do you think the tests you do on the Nikon glass would be pretty close to what we will see with Canon glass of at about the same focal lengths.

[Evin Grant]

thanks Evin. You rock!!!
Thanks, I'm just being a good soldier in the red army.
http://www.evingrant.com/red-army.jpg

Canon makes some fine glass, I just can't give a very good representation of it's quality until there is a viable solution for mounting EOS lens on the Red.
I personally liike Nikons wides better, but Canon has some real gems, like the 24mm f1.4 and 35mm f1.4.

[Sanjin Jukic]

JVC's new HD camera ( HDSDI output ) is with Nikon lenses as well.

Stewart

http://www.zoerk.com/_deutsch/adapt2jvc-E.html

[Martin Drew]

Hi Evin

Great idea. Any chance you could be consistent in subject matter and shooting conditions (in the style of DP review) makes it much easier to be objective in assessing the results.

Martin

[RED Russians]

Yeah, thank you Evin! I was thinking wouldn't it be cool if we had some 'real world' tests of lenses, and on the almost identical sized nikon sensor. Great!

Doesn't the fact that with Canon you're forced to use pre mid 80's lenses due to absence of aperture ring in all Canon glass after that really limit their usability/desirability with Red? I'm going Nikon myself tho I'm kind of still tossing up between zooms and primes (or a mix?) in the overall kit. Any thoughts on this would be really welcome.

[Steve Gibby]

Excellent idea Evin. I'll look forward to the test results. I also agree that a subjective analysis is preferrable to just numbers, assuming that we know that the person being subjective has a good eye for aesthetics - something you have.

I can be a resource for you. A business associate of mine has a cache of manual Nikkor lenses. I'll check with him for an itemized list of lenses he has, and if they're ones you don't have, but want to test, I'll bring them to you to test. I'll PM you a list when I get one. My oldest Nikkor lens is a 50mm f1.4, which was on a new Nikon F that I bought when I visited Hong Kong in 1969. (I still have that Nikon F, and occasionally use it, but I prefer to shoot mostly digital nowdays)

[RED Russians]

Evin, you only mention one nikon zoom:


17-35mm f2.8 AFS-D

I'm looking at this too but also a zoom to cover the 50-100+ range. Can you recommend any? What about zoom lens age? I heard 30+ yo lenses to be avoided. Thanks.

[David Nardini]

... also a zoom to cover the 50-100+ range ...

Have a look at one of these, Nikon 80-200mm f/2.8 D (assuming you want to stick with zoom Nikkor glass) : http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/80200.htm

[Don Woods]

Canon dose make so sexy glass. I would love if we could get some info from our RED friends if and when they are thinking of doing an EOS mount.. I know they got allot on there plate. But to offer a Nikon Mount and not a Canon for all use guys that went that way is hard. I now have to buy Nikon Lens's that wont go on my 1D.. I would also love to see some of the bigger L series zooms tested that would be interesting. But then again we need that mount.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm going to start testing various still lenses

Evin Grant, you're my hero...

[Finner]

Has anyone thought about what kind of matte box you can throw in front of a stills lens?

I do not think any stats have come out for dimensions of the Red 300mm but I assume it will need 6x6 filters for it especially for grad movement. So does anyone know of a matte box that may work for both stills lens situations & Red lenses? I know the 6x6 box would be huge in front of a stills lens but it may be more cost effective then a 4x4 for stills and the 6x6 for Red lenses. Maybe a 4x4 matte box and filters are cheaper then I think?

[David Nardini]

Canon dose make so sexy glass. I would love if we could get some info from our RED friends if and when they are thinking of doing an EOS mount.. I know they got allot on there plate. But to offer a Nikon Mount and not a Canon for all use guys that went that way is hard. I now have to buy Nikon Lens's that wont go on my 1D.. I would also love to see some of the bigger L series zooms tested that would be interesting. But then again we need that mount.

Hi IMG ... like you I'm Canon based, and kept some of the good Nikkor glass when I switched.

We'll have to wait and see, but given the following back focus measurements (I'm no engineer, but I gather these are near enough) :

PL mount = 52.0 mm
Nikon mount = 46.5 mm
Canon mount = 42.0 mm

So you CAN use Nikkor glass on EOS bodies (with an adapter) ... thus your potential re-investment can be re-used :) ... manually that is.

As you know EOS lenses have no aperture control, and the only way you can set another aperture is a manual hack by mounting the lens on a body, and select aperture while in M-mode. Now comes the 'work-around' ... while keeping depth of field button depressed, unmount the lens ... yuk, yuk, yuk. Clearly not practical ... you can, of course, work at full aperture.
I for one, would love to try the Canon EF-S 10-22mm/f3.5-4.5 for wide-angle underwater work : http://www.eflens.com/efs1022mmf3545usm/.

There is a thread somewhere about an interface to drive the EOS lenses, but I'm unclear if it needs a laptop to drive it (RS232 interface or something like it) ... not something I can contemplate for my housing :(

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks Evin you are doing a great service to all of us.

[Evin Grant]

Hi Evin

Great idea. Any chance you could be consistent in subject matter and shooting conditions (in the style of DP review) makes it much easier to be objective in assessing the results.

Martin

That's my plan, although I firmly believe a human subject is necesary for proper evaluation so you may be seeing my ugly mug a lot. I'm the only one around consistently.

[Evin Grant]

Evin, you only mention one nikon zoom:
I'm looking at this too but also a zoom to cover the 50-100+ range. Can you recommend any? What about zoom lens age? I heard 30+ yo lenses to be avoided. Thanks.

This is just a starting point becasue that is what I own. I will test other zooms as well, the 50-300 f4.5 ED AI is a good conteder because it has a two ring style and manual IRIS.
http://www.keh.com/ProductImages/fullSize/NK07010201471.jpg
The AF-D (non AFS) 80-200 f2.8 is another good choice.
http://www.keh.com/ProductImages/fullSize/NA07999045197.jpg

[Don Woods]

Well I think it will also be a good idea to keep price in mind. Good glass is not cheap. But what are we talking about price point wise comparing the basicly same length glass from Nikon to a Cooke or other cinea lens. I know they are apples and oranges, but it would be interesting Evin, if you did a test with one lens and then put up the Cinea lens comperison with the price points. just to give us an idea of what the options are.

[Mark Thorpe]

Evin,
Just to be able to keep an idea with cost could you also include lens prices on each of your evaluations? That would be fantastic, keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Evin Grant]

Lens prices are easy, I'll include new (I still made) and used/E-bay prices.
As far as comparing to cinema glass, I'd be glad to test a Zeiss and Cooke prime set if I can get a Rental house to donate for a day, it's probably possible, I have some favors owed. But you will hhave to wait till I actuallly have my Red. I don't know of any PL-Nikon mount adapter.

[Evin Grant]

Matteboxes are easy, the Chrosziel 411-50, just get an 85mm clap ring and 82mm step up rings.
http://www.evingrant.com/nikonmattebox.jpg

[Don Woods]

I like the Matte on the Nikon. Never tried that...

It would be very interesting to see how close a good Nikon glass will look to a Cooke or zeiss prime.

[Finner]

That matte box looks like it would work well for the nikons but a little to small for Red lenses. Oh well one step at a time.

Evin when you test the Nikons and other lenses any chance you can do a test on how bad the lenses breathe? I assume that will be the biggest downfall of the stills glass?

[Emanuel A.]

Good idea Evin and thanks! [You're a damned good RED forums moderator!]

[Evin Grant]

That matte box looks like it would work well for the nikons but a little to small for Red lenses. Oh well one step at a time.


The Mattebox can handle up to 104mm fronts, so I think the Red zoom will be fine. The 300 will need a 6.6x6.6 though.


Evin when you test the Nikons and other lenses any chance you can do a test on how bad the lenses breathe? I assume that will be the biggest downfall of the stills glass?

I will give it a shot, maybe a small video throught the viewfinder, but don't be too dissapointed if that dosen't happen, this is already a fairly big undertaking.

[Finner]

The Mattebox can handle up to 104mm fronts, so I think the Red zoom will be fine. The 300 will need a 6.6x6.6 though.

I will give it a shot, maybe a small video throught the viewfinder, but don't be too dissapointed if that dosen't happen, this is already a fairly big undertaking.

Adjusting grads may not be much of an option with the zoom and a 4x4 matte box?

As far as the breathing goes maybe you could just give us your opinion and a take 3 still shots 1 at infinity & 1 at about halfway through the focus and 1 at about 4 feet for each lens. This may give an idea of what the breathing of each lens is like?

We all would not be as excited as we are if we didn't know what a big undertaking it is. Thanks for tackling something like this Evin, it will be a great resource.

[GlennChan]

Some suggestions for testing:

1- Bokeh.

In particular, what does the bokeh look like for things that are too close, and too far away. A good test might be to have a pinpoint of light, both near and far. It gives a pretty good "fingerprint" of what the bokeh will look like. Maybe if you can string some christmas lights, that would be good too.

2- Breathing
Yes please test for this! Maybe shoot a scene where there are lots of vertical objects, as a point of reference for the framing. Perhaps you might do this at the same time as a pull focus between two objects (or people) in the scene.

3- Chromatic aberration
For VFX work, CA can be annoying. Not sure what a good test would be, although a test pattern might be easiest (especially one that measures CA over the entire area of the shot).

I know you're against measurebation, but from a practical perspective shooting a test pattern here might be the quickest way to figure out how prone the lens is to CA. Otherwise you might want to shoot some greenscreen, and talent against a superwhite screen.

4- Resolution: Could you maybe print out some text at different point sizes, so people can evaluate resolution based on the legibility (sp?) of the text?

5- Some real world stuff of course.

6- Can the lens make some interesting distortions and/or flaring. i.e. camera flare, and Holga/Lomo photography-type stuff. Ok, so these lenses aren't going to be Holga/Lomo quality, so that'd be a point test. But it might be nice to evaluate the flaring... could be done with some light sources in the framing (and off it), hitting directly into the lens. Maybe practicals like a bare lightbulb.

7- Subjective opinion on the ergonomics of the lens / how smooth the focus + zoom are.


Thank you in advance for doing this btw, I'd be interested in the results.

[Ace]

2- Breathing
Yes please test for this! Maybe shoot a scene where there are lots of vertical objects, as a point of reference for the framing. Perhaps you might do this at the same time as a pull focus between two objects (or people) in the scene.

I think breathing is something that's on everyones minds at the moment who will be shooting with still lenses.. It would be fantastic to see this tested in someway.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Evin,

I am very interested in your lens tests and looking forward to read it too.

[Evin Grant]

I will definately test for...
Sharpness Wide open, two stops down and six stops down (Subjective test with examples and conclusions based on real applications)
Bokeh (Probably only in the faster normal/tele lenses)
CA/Diffraction Limiting (My infinity test should work for this too)
Breathing (Maybe video or animated Gif.)
Build (Can it stop drop and roll?)
Optical abberations/Flare/Contrast/Color or special charachteristics.
Adaptability to cinema style shooting.
Application/niche
Price/Value

The tests will primarily be based on...
A Wide frame (Infinity) outdoors in contrasty afternooon light.
An M*, MCU* or CU* of a perosn lit by a window (Which means diffrent distances for diffrent lenses)
An insert style shot assuming the lens focuses close enough.

*I will choose a size most appropriate to the lens being used, for instance a Meduim shot for 17mm, an Medium Close Up for a 50mm and a Close up for a 135mm.

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'm going to get to work soon.
If any of you lens manufacturers out there have products you wish to be tested I'm putting out the call. I will be warm but accurate.

[Alvise Tedesco]

Thanks Evin for that.
Adding a note about focus ergonomics and smoothness wouldn't take you a lot more time. I unfortunately never used cine lenses, but I found the shortness of focus ring to be the only real downside on still lenses (talking about M2).
Thanks again

[Jeremy Hughes]

Evin, don't you have an EF adapter? According to Wikipedia, James "Jim" Jannard has an EF 1200mm lens. You should borrow it sometime.

[Evin Grant]

Can't do it, Canon's flange focal distance is less than Nikons. Unless you want a 1200mm Macro lens.

[Jeremy Hughes]

Ha ha, now that'd be weird.

[mezmo]

Hi Evin,
Keep up the good work. I was wondering if you could
also test for tracking on the 17-35mm Nikkor Zoom, movement
left to right, up and down thru the zoom range, or are you
planning to use this lens as a variable prime only.
Many thanks for all your efforts.
__________________________
Mezmo

[Karl H]

Hi Evin

Just wanted to say thanks in advance. I'll certainly be in the market for using SLR lenses on my RED and plan to start purchasing the lenses before RED ships.

So seriously, the advice you give here is invaluable. Thanks a lot!

My first naive question would be this. As the DSLR's and RED shoot a closer FOV than a full frame 35mm sensor, effectively this means you'd be shooting the sweet spot of a lens. Does that mean lesser expensive lenses would fair well in these tests? I always thought that lens quality was more noticable at the edges for it's deterioration/softness/vingetting etc.

Do cheaper lenses compare more favourably at the centre?

[Jarred Land]

Hi Evin

Does that mean lesser expensive lenses would fair well in these tests? I always thought that lens quality was more noticable at the edges for it's deterioration/softness/vingetting etc.

Do cheaper lenses compare more favourably at the centre?

remember there are alot of cheap Digital specific lenses out there now with smaller back elements, so the sweet spot is alot smaller on those lenses... but in general, the advantages of using full frame lenses on APS-C sensors translates pretty well.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Nikon lens database with a summary of Nikon lens serial numbers, specifications and accessories.
http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/lenses.html

[Andrew M.]

Anybody knows if M2 adapter will work for mounting Canon EF lens on RED PL mount? Is there any other way of mounting Canon EF lens on PL mount?
Andrew

[Evin Grant]

Anybody knows if M2 adapter will work for mounting Canon EF lens on RED PL mount? Is there any other way of mounting Canon EF lens on PL mount?
Andrew

Unfortunately there is no viable way to mount EOS lenses on to Red at this moment. A dedicated mount could be made but no aperture control would be possible beacuse Canon requires a proprietary electronic data conection to control Iris. There is one work around using a Canon SLR. Setting the aperture, powering down the camera and reoving the lens, but this is impractical and allows too much oportunity for dust to enter the sensor chamber. Hopefully a third party solution will emegre but I would not count on seeing one till the end of the year at the earliest.

Don't fret, used Nikon primes can be had for very lillte money on E-bay, KEH.com or your local camera store.

[Vincent S]

Just wondering if anyone has feedback on the Tamron, seems you have manual control and it's a 2.8, plus the price is really low compared to the Nikon.

Tamron Wide Angle SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=303168&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)

Vin

[Jeff Kilgroe]

IMO, Tamron lenses suck.

I don't have any direct experience with their 17-35mm, but I think f2.8 is the widest aperture it has and I don't think that lens is a constant aperture model, meaning that it pushes you to f4 by the time you're at full tele. You get what you pay for... As for the Nikon 17-35mm It's a truly awesome lens. There's a reason why used ones on ebay are still going for $850+ in most situations. B&H has them for $1299 (where I got mine) comes with a case too.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Hey, I know there's still a lot to be discussed over the zeiss lenses, especially after they launch their wide angles and their macros (Zeiss cinematography macros are awesome pieces of glass), but something comes to mind while reading their specifications. They claim the ZF's focus barrels have longer turns, something that cine lenses also do and something that can help tremendously in a cine-like operation.

I was wondering that Evin's reviews, while they deal pretty well with image quality, don't mention anything about operability (but the breathing and bokeh tests are very good!). So I would suggest that to be included in future tests.

Cheers, and keep on with the good work!

[istvanttt]

Hey, I just discovered this forum and want to express my thanks to Evin Grant for going to make this incredible work he plans. So I feel guilty to ad a wish, but what about the Lomo Prime lenses? At the end Tarkovskij made his movies with those lenses. Browsing around the web I read a lot of interesting things about them and started to order some of those lenses. Its not easy to find them, but I think an interesting alternative for the RED ONE.

[Evin Grant]

If someone is willing to provide a set I will test them. Matt Urhy, don't you have some Russian glass?

[istvanttt]

I should get some of the faster (1.2) Lomo lenses in the next 2-3 weeks. If everything goes fine I could bring them to you for the test. My RED One wil come much later

[Matt Uhry]

HI Evin,

I have a set of the Fast MKBK primes, and 2 zooms and a few other things, but they are mostly in OCT-19 mount which is similar to BNCR. The zooms both have oct 19 and PL mount - not sure what camera you were hoping to test with. Feel free to contact me...

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com