2/3 HD lens for single CMOS

[TimothyD]

Hello everybody,

I am in major deliberation over getting an XDCAM instead of the Red One.

I have the funds for a Red One and lens, etc.., but I am a little bit hesitant about getting an HD lens and the Abakus or Red adapter.

I am hoping someone might have some inside info or rumors on a 2/3 HD lens for a single plan camera like the Red One. I don't really like the adpater route idea, and am really hoping that someone comes out with, or at least announces the lens I am waiting for.

If anyone has any info on this I'd love to know about it. My deadline for ordering the camera and lens will be mid to late May.

If the kind folks at Red would like to announce a lens like I need, I'd be happy to place an order:)

Thanks,

Tim

[Andrew M.]

Hello everybody,

I am in major deliberation over getting an XDCAM instead of the Red One.

I have the funds for a Red One and lens, etc.., but I am a little bit hesitant about getting an HD lens and the Abakus or Red adapter.

I am hoping someone might have some inside info or rumors on a 2/3 HD lens for a single plan camera like the Red One.

Thanks,

Tim

Tim, don’t wary about Abakus adapter. Was tested with RED and other cameras and it tests good. Search keyword “abakus” on this forum and you will get very good idea, what was done.

XDCAM..hmm....:-)

Andrew

[Scott Webster]

Timothy, if you don't have a reservation in the first 1500 then I think the decision has been made for you. Unless you are happy to rent until the 2nd wave of cameras becomes available. We are Red 23 and I'd be happily suprised to take delivery by the end of May.

[chuck colburn]

Makes me want to put a B4 lens without the optical block in front of a CMOS just to see what the image looks like. Would have to shorten up the FFD quite a bit though.

[WesG]

Hello everybody,

I am in major deliberation over getting an XDCAM instead of the Red One.

I have the funds for a Red One and lens, etc.., but I am a little bit hesitant about getting an HD lens and the Abakus or Red adapter.

I am hoping someone might have some inside info or rumors on a 2/3 HD lens for a single plan camera like the Red One. I don't really like the adpater route idea, and am really hoping that someone comes out with, or at least announces the lens I am waiting for.

If anyone has any info on this I'd love to know about it. My deadline for ordering the camera and lens will be mid to late May.

If the kind folks at Red would like to announce a lens like I need, I'd be happy to place an order:)

Thanks,

Tim

How about using a S16 lens?? which has been discussed extensively through other threads. All you lose is zoom and auto functions - do you really really need them. Might be worth it to get a RED over XDCAM - I've been using the Sony 350 XDCAM HD and it's great but RED is going to provide a whole new level of image quality.

[Paul Hazlett]

Tim,

If you are going to shoot JUST HD, and are worried about the lens adapter.

go with the xdcam, but be warned, once you are there you have to stick to
xdcam HD and the whole world of possibilities of RED will be closed to you.

No one is going to make a single plane HD 2/3" lens, IMHO for the simple fact
that it is not there market. Fuji and Canon service 3 chip cameras with the 2/3 form factor. maybe in the future when more cameras are single chip, it
could change, but for now I dont see it happening.

[TimothyD]

Thanks everybody, I'll respond to each post here:

"Timothy, if you don't have a reservation in the first 1500 then I think the decision has been made for you. Unless you are happy to rent until the 2nd wave of cameras becomes available. We are Red 23 and I'd be happily suprised to take delivery by the end of May."

Actually, I just need to have the camera ordered by the end of May, the wait is no problem. I don't "have" to go HD for about another year.

"How about using a S16 lens??"

I'd be fine with that option, but I really need the rocker zoom. About 75% of what I do is run and gun.

"If you are going to shoot JUST HD, and are worried about the lens adapter.
"

I don't have any need to go beyond 1080, but, I do WANT to be able to shoot some stuff in 4k with still lenses for archival purposes. (I work for a university and my footage will all end up in the historical library at some point)

"No one is going to make a single plane HD 2/3" lens"

I sincerely hope you are wrong, because that is what will make or break the deal for me. I think that Red should strongly consider making a ENG/EFP lens themselves because the market for ENG/EFP is HUGE and that would be the one piece of the puzzle needed to have a truly turn-key set up.

Crossing my fingers here red team...

Tim

[Andrew M.]

IMHO 2/3 format puts too much demand on the lenses quality if you want to push it to 2000 horizontal lines resolution. Smaller the sensor is, more precise optics have to be.
2/3 format is good for maximum 800 lines resolution and it is what this format was designed for.
Pushing it past 800 all the way to 1920 of horizontal resolution is expensive and it is a technological challenge. HDTV consumer will demand full 1920 and will turn away from any technology that will not deliver. Let’s face it 800 lines is not much better then 480x720 of DVD player. We can’t forget about the fact that the whole broadcast industry standardized on 2/3 size and it standardized on this format only because of the SDTV format. This may change very fast once full HDTV will make inroads in to the households. You can’t use SDTV sensor format to deliver HDTV no matter how much you would like to push it. It was just not designed for it.

[TimothyD]

Ok, then why doesn't someone make a S16 HD lens that has a rocker zoom for ENG/EFP. I don't really care how I get it done, I just want an all-in-one solution for ENG/EFP.

Let's face it, digital cinema may be what this camera was designed for, but ENG/EFP use will outnumber cine uses 100/1 in no time if the right lens arrives on the scene.

Tim

[Andrew M.]

Ok, then why doesn't someone make a S16 HD lens that has a rocker zoom for ENG/EFP. I don't really care how I get it done, I just want an all-in-one solution for ENG/EFP.

Let's face it, digital cinema may be what this camera was designed for, but ENG/EFP use will outnumber cine uses 100/1 in no time if the right lens arrives on the scene.

Tim

That is why there is the Abakus B4 adapter.
RED with the Abakus is much better solution that anything out there in 2/3 format when preserving future investment is concern but not only.
Be prepared to spend minimum 20K for some good B4 ENG lenses if you want to get more then 1500 lines resolution.

[Paul Hazlett]

Andrew is right Tim,

the new fuji 16x6.3 is 22,000 list, and if you want to go with digizoom from
zeiss for 2/3 HD your looking at 40 grand.

for that kind of money you can get a whole set of 16 primes and maybe a
zoom.

Just curious, why are you anti-adapter,? it will be optically invisible.

[TimothyD]

Well,

I'm anti-adapter because it adds to the length of the lens, and it also adds 3.5k to the price of the total package. I'd much rather get a nicer lens and not have the extra couple of inches of length.

I will only be doing ENG/EFP 90% of the time, so I don't want/need to deal with primes. I just need a versatile zoom. When I want to shoot 4k I'll borrow lenses from our photographer.

Tim

[Andrew M.]

Well,

I'm anti-adapter because it adds to the length of the lens, and it also adds 3.5k to the price of the total package.
Tim

But other way around it adds 20K to the camera and 2/3 cameras are at the dead end.

[Steve Gibby]

TimothyD,

If you search carefully, at equipment rental companies, television stations/networks, and online, you can find B4 2/3" HD ENG zooms (18x without doubler) for as little as $5.5k USD. Have a lens bought that way checked out by your lens technician before you buy it. Add in the RED B4 adaptor, and you're at around $9k outlay. That would get you in the game. HDTV is so compressed for delivery in MPEG2 that I hardly think anyone will complain about your used HD lens.

You are right in that the number of professional EFP/ENG production worldwide, in terms of sheer numbers of productions, is significantly higher than digital cinema and film productions combined. EFP/ENG is a massive potential market for RED One, RED obviously knows that, and I expect 3rd party accessory manufacturers to take notice of that.

[steevo435]

"I'm anti-adapter because it adds to the length of the lens, and it also adds 3.5k to the price of the total package. I'd much rather get a nicer lens and not have the extra couple of inches of length."

Don't forget you also lose 2/3 of a stop with the Abakus, and it magnifies the image slightly. The whole concept of the Abakus adapter was to put a 2/3" lens on a S16 camera. S16 frame (14.4mm diagonal) is slightly bigger than 2/3" (11mm diagonal), hence a 1.3 (roughly) magnification is used. A Fujinon 22x hd at tele is 172mm, with the Abakus it's almost 225mm (good!), but also lengthens the wide end (bad!).
It's a great adapter, plus if you ever have to use a B4 camera (XDcam, digi, F900, Varicam, etc) you have a lens for that too. Believe me, Sony and panasonic are dedicated to the B4 mount....2/3" lenses aren't going away anytime soon. They are going to get better and better and longer and wider.
The company I work for uses several Abakus adapters on Fuji hd lenses to shoot S16. We do 2k scans regularly, no problems.
I highly reccomend the Fujinon HA series lenses. The HA25x11.5 is an amazing lens.

[Steve Gibby]

The Abakus adaptor is good, but I'd also seriously check out the RED B4 adaptor before buying the Abakus. Reports are that the RED B4 adaptor is based on the Abakus, but has some minor modifications specifically for use on RED One. Nobody has said what those mods might be, but hopefully at NAB we'll get more info on that.

[steevo435]

The Abakus adaptor is good, but I'd also seriously check out the RED B4 adaptor before buying the Abakus. Reports are that the RED B4 adaptor is based on the Abakus, but has some minor modifications specifically for use on RED One. Nobody has said what those mods might be, but hopefully at NAB we'll get more info on that.

Interesting....I'd love to see it. The Abakus is $3500, if RED can do better than that, I'd be happy to have a sip of the ol' RED kool aid!
One other thing about adapters and magnification, this may be obvious but should be said- they really should be used with better glass....same goes for 2x extenders. If you put an adapter on older ENG type lenses (say, pre-hd ENG's), you will magnify any flaw with that lens. Chromatic Abberation is a major problem with older eng's, so be careful with older B4 eng's.

[Steve Gibby]

Good point on older SD glass. I wouldn't put any SD glass on RED One. I think you'll be pretty safe with any dedicated HD glass, whether it be HD ENG zooms, or HD cine zooms and primes - of course each HD lens can have it's own idiosyncracies.

[Andrew M.]

2/3" lenses aren't going away anytime soon. They are going to get better and better and longer and wider.

I wonder though how they are going to squeeze 110 Lp/mm out of these lenses for 1080X1920 or 220Lp/mm for 4K. And it is what you do need for 2/3 (9mm) wide sensor.
24mm wide S35 type sensor needs 40% of that.
And it is without any safety margin. If sensor has 110Lp/mm resolution and lenses is the same you end up with 70Lp/mm combined. So ~800TVL.
BTW Top of the line Master Primes are 200Lp/mm

Do you know where can we find any MTF charts for Fujinon HA?

[steevo435]

"I wonder though how they are going to squeeze 110 Lp/mm out of these lenses for 1080X1920 or 220Lp/mm for 4K. And it is what you do need for 2/3 (9mm) wide sensor."
I'm confused. The F900 acquires at 1920x1080...they don't need to squeeze any more resolution out of these lenses for what they do. It'd be nice if the exposure didn't ramp so damn much, but resolution isn't a problem at all. All the lens manufacturers spec for B4 HD lenses is minimum 56Lp. SD lenses were a pathetic 28Lp/mm. All the HD lenses I've tested that I use in house I've seen around 100Lp.
I don't think Fujinon publishes MTF charts. I have access to some numbers, but I don't think they'd appreciate me sharing ;-)

[Andrew M.]

I would be surprised if you can get more then 800 lines ether horizontal or vertical from F900. Try to take a chart and do the test.
Remember line per mm or Lines pairs per millimeters are two different things.
Also 800 TV lines could be used horizontally or vertically these days.

[Andrew M.]

Some useful things to know.
In the TV we count all the lines black and white.
So 800 lines mean 400 black and 400 whites
When we refer to the lenses usually we count only black lines, that is why we write it Line pairs per mm (Lp/mm)
In 3 CCD full HD resolution sensor cameras we have 3X CCD sensors containing 2MegaPixels each, 1080V and 1920H and it has ~9mm horizontal size. We are talking 2/3 sensor form factor here. (2/3 inch sensor doesn’t mean it is 2/3” size!)
So it will have 106 Lp/mm (213 pixels in each mm or 213 TV lines for each mm of the sensor)
Since the vertical size of the sensor is ~5mm than the vertical resolution is the same 106Lp/mm
MTF charts usually shows on the horizontal (x) axis the distance in millimeters from the middle of the frame or the Lp/mm, Manufactures can show few graphs for different zoom focal lengths and few f stops. Some MTF graphs will just dump all this in different color curves on the same graph, without any explanation.

All this to confuse the average potential buyer.
Don’t buy any lenses that do not come with clear MTF charts that could be verified.

[Stuart English]

If you don't have a 2/3" HD lens already, Abel Cine Tech offer a special Canon lens that is designed for P/L mount and Super 16 mm coverage .

www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10870&cat=779&page=1
Canon 10.6 - 180mm T2.7 P/L mount

This design is essentially the 2/3" B4 HD lens with different rear elements to make it directly compatable with P/L - no adaptor required.

It has no motor drive but that is not an insurmountable issue to resolve.

[Andrew M.]

It has no motor drive but that is not an insurmountable issue to resolve.

Stuart, do you know of any zoom/focus rocker assembly that could be mounted on a side of the lenses instead of on the rails?

[Andrew M.]

All the HD lenses I've tested that I use in house I've seen around 100Lp.

Maybe if we get RAW out of the F900 and we record to the hard disk bypassing the tape and compression we could push it past 800TVL.
It would be very interesting experiment...
I don't trust 3XCCD prism assembly, you loose a lot of resolution on it.

[chuck colburn]

If you don't have a 2/3" HD lens already, Abel Cine Tech offer a special Canon lens that is designed for P/L mount and Super 16 mm coverage .

www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10870&cat=779&page=1
Canon 10.6 - 180mm T2.7 P/L mount

This design is essentially the 2/3" B4 HD lens with different rear elements to make it directly compatable with P/L - no adaptor required.

It has no motor drive but that is not an insurmountable issue to resolve.

That's quite a focal length range considering you only lose around half a stop from one end to the other.

[Stuart English]

No I don't unforunately, I think it would be a great option if there were.

[steevo435]

Maybe if we get RAW out of the F900 and we record to the hard disk bypassing the tape and compression we could push it past 800TVL.
It would be very interesting experiment...
I don't trust 3XCCD prism assembly, you loose a lot of resolution on it.
The F900 records 1920x1080. I'm talking about lenses here anyway. Just the lens, on a test projector, projecting a chart that has up to 200 Lp/mm. Every Fujinon 2/3" lens that I've projected resolves 100 Lp/mm.
I really don't want to defend the ccd system, it certainly has it's flaws. Loss of resolution is not one of them. The prism splits the light to red, green, and blue channels, that's all.

[Paul Hazlett]

Stuart, do you know of any zoom/focus rocker assembly that could be mounted on a side of the lenses instead of on the rails?

If the gearing is the same on the lens then, Able should be able (hehe)
to attach a zoom housing strictly for the zoom function since it operates
outside the lens case no?

[Andrew M.]

The F900 records 1920x1080. I'm talking about lenses here anyway. Just the lens, on a test projector, projecting a chart that has up to 200 Lp/mm. Every Fujinon 2/3" lens that I've projected resolves 100 Lp/mm.
I really don't want to defend the ccd system, it certainly has it's flaws. Loss of resolution is not one of them. The prism splits the light to red, green, and blue channels, that's all.

Prism introduces distortion and it has it’s own resolution in terms of Lp/mm
As I mentioned before 100Lp lenses on 100Lp sensor gives you 70Lp or so.
You need minimum double of Lp on lenses to get out maximum from the sensor.
Otherwise 1080p becomes 720p

As to F900 recording of 1080x1920 is concern, this is the most common mistake made while evaluating details resolving power of the camera. Recording is one thing, resolving is the other.
There is number of new “Full HD” consumer/prosumer camcorders introduced last year.
Read carefully, “Full HD recording capability” (Full HD I consider when we have 2Mega Pixels on the sensor and on the screen, RGB pixels equivalent)
350X200 pixel sensor you can record in 1920x1080 no problem here.
Get the good chart, record 20 second shot on the F900, play it back, press pause button, count the lines.
How much we got? ~800
Put it diagonal across the screen maybe you will get more.

[TimothyD]

Excellent info from everyone, thanks so much.

Stuart, do you (or any other forum users) know if that PL converted 2/3 lens from Abel will work with the normal rocker zoom that would be on a 2/3 lens? If so this sounds like just what is needed for a turn-key system. From your post it sounds like it may be a little more complex than that though. For my needs a normal rocker zoom is essential, because I won't be on a tripod about 50% or more of the time.

Thanks,

Tim

[Andrew M.]

Excellent info from everyone, thanks so much.

Stuart, do you (or any other forum users) know if that PL converted 2/3 lens from Abel will work with the normal rocker zoom that would be on a 2/3 lens? If so this sounds like just what is needed for a turn-key system. From your post it sounds like it may be a little more complex than that though. For my needs a normal rocker zoom is essential, because I won't be on a tripod about 50% or more of the time.

Thanks,

Tim

look on the this post
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=23823#post23823

[Shane Kelly]

Timothy,
I have an Abakus B4 adapter that I've used on my aaton with a canon J15ax8b4 irs lens. It has an interface box that allows me to draw 12volts from the camera to run the rocker zoom and power on/off the camera. This doesn't seem to be offered for sale anymore but it seems that this is what the eng-style/run and gun user really needs.If any engineering genius feels like reverse- engineering it, I'll loan it out.
I just wanted to let everone know that it is possible as long as you can get 12volts from the camera.
pictures of the adapter and the abakus are here:
http://homepage.mac.com/skellycinematography/
I'll probably be selling the b4 adapter as well as I'm going for 35mm primes and I don't have my aaton anymore. But if anyone has any doubts about the quality of the abakus, I used this setup to shoot "urbania"
http://imdb.com/title/tt0182508/
in 1999 which was blown up to 35mm and was in competition at Sundance.
Regards,
Shane F. Kelly

[TimothyD]

Thanks Shane,

It sounds like no converter box is really needed, but if so, maybe Red would want to reverse engineer it. So as someone who has the Abakus, how much weight and size does that add to the camera. I am guessing it is about 2 inches long and weighs about half a pound or so. Is that about right?

Tim

[Michael Hastings]

Every Fujinon 2/3" lens that I've projected resolves 100 Lp/mm.



Does this include SD lenses - my understanding is most of the HD lenses are just tweaked SD lenses and that the later SD lenses are very close in resolution.


Timothy,
I have an Abakus B4 adapter that I've used on my aaton with a canon J15ax8b4 irs lens. It has an interface box ... If any engineering genius feels like reverse- engineering it, I'll loan it out.

I'll probably be selling the b4 adapter as well as I'm going for 35mm primes and I don't have my aaton anymore.

Regards,
Shane F. Kelly

Shane: thanks for the loaner offer - may take you up on that at some point.

How much are you looking to get for the adapter when you sell it? I am mainly looking at using Canon EF lenses with the Birger mount for most of my stuff (or PL cine lenses for projects with the budget) - but since I will be renting the RED as well (and since I have 3 of those J15ax8b4 irs lenses) it seems like it might be a useful accessory. Need any underwater gear?

[steevo435]

Does this include SD lenses - my understanding is most of the HD lenses are just tweaked SD lenses and that the later SD lenses are very close in resolution.


The glass is different. The HD lens elements have a lower refractive index- although I will say that the last generation of Canon 21x (pre-HD) lenses were almost as sharp as the Fujinon HD lenses. The biggest difference is the low dispersion glass, which helps minimize chromatic abberation. The difference can really be magnified (pun intended) by flipping in the 2x extender on an SD lens and opening the iris all the way. Go to a parking lot on a sunny day and rack focus between white or brightly colored cars and reflections off chrome or windows...notice the radical shift between red and green in out-of-focus areas. I believe yucky poo poo is the technical term you might use when you see this.

[Shane Kelly]

Thanks Shane,

It sounds like no converter box is really needed, but if so, maybe Red would want to reverse engineer it. So as someone who has the Abakus, how much weight and size does that add to the camera. I am guessing it is about 2 inches long and weighs about half a pound or so. Is that about right?

Tim
Timothy,
The abakus weighs about 12oz, but mine has a B to pl adapter on it, so, without it, it would be about half a pound. The length is 2 inches but one of these inches goes inside the camera, so the additional length is only 1 inch.
The lens still needs to get power to the zoom and I haven't heard any plans on how to do that, so I would imagine that some sort of electronic adapter would be needed.
Are the Sony and Panasonic zoom connectors on the front of their cameras the same plug? One of these on the RED would be the simplest approach.
It would also be nice to use the on/off power switch on the zoom handle.
Later.
Shane

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks, that makes sense.

And I believe yucky poo poo should be avoided.


The glass is different. The HD lens elements have a lower refractive index- although I will say that the last generation of Canon 21x (pre-HD) lenses were almost as sharp as the Fujinon HD lenses. The biggest difference is the low dispersion glass, which helps minimize chromatic abberation. The difference can really be magnified (pun intended) by flipping in the 2x extender on an SD lens and opening the iris all the way. Go to a parking lot on a sunny day and rack focus between white or brightly colored cars and reflections off chrome or windows...notice the radical shift between red and green in out-of-focus areas. I believe yucky poo poo is the technical term you might use when you see this.

[chuck colburn]

The glass is different. The HD lens elements have a lower refractive index- although I will say that the last generation of Canon 21x (pre-HD) lenses were almost as sharp as the Fujinon HD lenses. The biggest difference is the low dispersion glass, which helps minimize chromatic abberation. The difference can really be magnified (pun intended) by flipping in the 2x extender on an SD lens and opening the iris all the way. Go to a parking lot on a sunny day and rack focus between white or brightly colored cars and reflections off chrome or windows...notice the radical shift between red and green in out-of-focus areas. I believe yucky poo poo is the technical term you might use when you see this.

Where did you get this info?

[steevo435]

Uh, which part?

[chuck colburn]

Uh, which part?


The part about the refractive indices of the glass.

[steevo435]

Where did you get this info?
From Fujinon and Canon service departments, I know both service managers quite well.
Also, it is in much published material...

http://www.usa.canon.com/industrial_bctv/p_hdec_HJ21x75BKLL_SC_intro.shtml

http://www.usa.canon.com/industrial_bctv/Whats_new.shtml

[chuck colburn]

From Fujinon and Canon service departments, I know both service managers quite well.
Also, it is in much published material...

http://www.usa.canon.com/industrial_bctv/p_hdec_HJ21x75BKLL_SC_intro.shtml

http://www.usa.canon.com/industrial_bctv/Whats_new.shtml

Thank you Steevo435,

Makes for informative reading.

Chuck