Red One Dead await Red 2?

[OwenR]

Hi

so are we buying in to a system that will expand .....

Whats the shelf life of a Red One?

Is it like a pc 5years then move on or....

Less...

Are we all better off waiting for Red Two....the bigger better more dynamic....

Is 4.5K enough or should we be striving for 6K or 8K .....Red 2 is in development will we have to just drop Red One and move on??

And how do we handle all this data??

[Brook Willard]

4K from RED will appear sharper than 35mm film.

The RED ONE is upgradable. As new processors, sensors, storage options, firmware, etc. become available, you can upgrade the camera as you see fit.

Handling data has been discussed dozens of times before. I recommend that you pop over to the 4K workflow section and do some reading. :)

[Hrvoje Simic]

You can forget some of the usual issues in the RED realm.
Shelf life issue is one of them.

The thoughs on "obsolescence" can be read on red.com.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Is 4.5K enough or should we be striving for 6K or 8K .....Red 2 is in development will we have to just drop Red One and move on??

4K is more than fine. Many productions these days are finished in 2K or HD res. Theatrical film distribution prints often have lower perceivable resolution than a 2K image.

As for RED TWO. There's no indication if or when it may exist. Right now, there is no reason for it to exist... Let's get a RED One first.

[Brian Broz]

Please don't lose sight of the fact that the RED one camera isn't out yet.
It's not obselete, and if you don't have a pre-order you won't be able to buy one until fall.
Do you have the capability to edit / composite / color correct higher than 4K footage for the forseeable future? For most people 2K is more than enough...especially when delivering for broadcast (HDCAM / SR etc).
Some of the supporting technology will have to come up to speed to handle 4K footage for alot of desktop users.

[Chris Kenny]

Resolution is quickly becoming a solved problem. I'd expect the focus of sensor developers to increasingly turn toward dynamic range and frame rate. It'll be interesting to see how quickly progress occurs there and whether the systems that surround the sensor can keep up.

[Ace]

6K,8K? Youd be cramming the pixels real tight at that res.

If you cant shoot a masterpiece on 4k, you definately wont on 8

[Ace]

Oh and no it wont be like using a PC 5 years and moving on, because the 4k level of cinematic detail has been around for a hundred years and will be around for another hundred most likely.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Oh and no it wont be like using a PC 5 years and moving on, because the 4k level of cinematic detail has been around for a hundred years and will be around for another hundred most likely.

Alhough I agree with you on the fact that 4K will probably be good enough for many many years, I have to arrest you on the "been around for a hundred years" bit - The relative resolution of 35 mm has expanded gradualy as the grain technology has gotten better. At the birth of cinema 35mm had a resolution probably best measured against VHS - without the colors, at best.

In response to the original question, if you want a high resolution recording medium at this time (or by fall - if you have a reservation), RED ONE is it, if you want to make only ONE purchase in your lifetime, depending on your age... wait another 20-70 years!

As has been mentioned above the RED is supposed to be upgradeable, what that means in reality, we will know at some point in the future. I am putting my money down, and I bet it will be worthwhile for at least 4-6 years, and it will still have some value in 10 years. (I am hoping for longer, but this is what I am basing my purchase decision on)

[Ace]

Erik,

Sorry, say 50 years. I meant 35mm standard was around for a 100 yeaers. So the format wont likely change anytime soon.

4K wont be changing anytime soon either, as we are seeing delivery mediums shrinking, not getting bigger.

[Obin Olson]

Ace you know after I bought my Canon 12MP EOS 1ds I kinda never ever read photo mags ........when you have enough res who needs more...well I guess if you want to make prints that are 300 feet wide you would need more.....anyway the point is we have never ever had a video camera with enough res, now we will.

[Holosynthetic]

I feel this is the same argument often seen over on Macintosh forums with people debating on the purchase of a new macbook or mac pro. They keep asking when the next revision will be out and how the next greatest processor will be available in just a few months time so its wise to wait, and then an even better one a few months after that, and so on and so forth until we have 80 billion core processors. I think it has been stated so many times its like a broken record, whatever you want NOW is what you should worry about.

then there's the group of people who complain about resale value on automobiles when considering a purchase, if they are in the market of selling their car every few years for a new one, then money is probably the last thing they need to worry about.

I think just by hearing professionals who have worked with other equipment and the price gouging that goes on in this market, buying a RED ONE and a RED TWO, as a matter of fact buying two of each even, would probably be cheaper then buying one other camera with only HD capabilities.

I had a bad day...I apologize

[Rick Darge]

Erik,

Sorry, say 50 years. I meant 35mm standard was around for a 100 yeaers. So the format wont likely change anytime soon.

4K wont be changing anytime soon either, as we are seeing delivery mediums shrinking, not getting bigger.

Um... 3D?

Holographic theaters..

By the year 2050, 2D images will out of style

[Poi Boy]

right on RGD ! 50 years is an eternity. Think of what has happened in the last 50 years.

Aloha
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

By the year 2050, 2D images will out of style

If visual delivery systems evolve fast enough, by then 2D images could have already gone out and will be coming back into style.

[Poi Boy]

there will be no reason for 2d to come back in style then. 50 YEARS DUDE !
-A

[Dave Cooper]

RED ONE isn't even out yet and he wants to wait for RED TWO. Let him so he can tell us how it goes.

[Poi Boy]

in 50 years I'll be most likely be dead and none of the technology that is with us now will still be around.
duhh !!!
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

in 50 years I'll be most likely be dead and none of the technology that is with us now will still be around.
duhh !!!
-A

I'm going to live forever. ...If I don't expire from anxiety waiting for my RED One.

[Priyesh P.]

I´m not totally convinced about the "obsolescense"-part.
This is going to work for maybe the first couple of years, but then, especially with digital technology we´ll reach a point where so much has changed that it won´t make sense to maintain the "shell" or obsolete electronics, since that could be limiting factors. i.e. there could be new materials / a new design for the body for better physical protection / cooling or totally new digital interfaces.

For my very own situation I´m estimating a lifecycle of approx. 5 years, afterwards I´d buy a new camera.
Please don´t get me wrong, I´m really ( really ! ) interested in this system and waiting until end of 2007 to check on feedback from those 1500 first customers, maybe there´ll be issues nobody thought of - but probably nothing serious ( not at least on the scale of the mercedes a-class desaster ).

[Moir]

I think exactly the same way as obin. The DSLR market is much more mature than the digital video market, and I think many still photographers have lost their fixation with having more pixels.

It's reached the stage where I'd much rather invest in lenses than have the latest, greatest DSLR body.

There comes a point where good enough is good enough, and I think Red promises to be exactly that. When the technology no longer limits your ability to get the images you want, who cares what might be available in 2 years time?

[JVB]

why don't you wait until red one is finished before you start thinking about red 2? But if you want to wait around for red 2 by all means wait and the rest of us will be shooting 4k until then.

[PaulClements]

The market for these types of cameras is so relatively small that comparing a digital cinema camera to computers is slightly ridiculous. Computers represent one of the largest markets in the world and as such the competition to deliver the best components is enormous. Computers will therefore have a natural evolution over short spaces of time.

With any movie equipment it will last as long as you treat it well and there is no reason that even after 10, 15 or 20 years you couldn't still be producing quality images with your RedOne. Jim has already made it clear that Red will be available to help repair and maintain cameras... At least I think he did hehe! :)

You will be waiting a long time for RedTwo in my opinion, at the very least 18 months given thats how long it's taken to develop RedOne. And frankly I'd be suprised if Red started manufacturing another camera any time soon.

[Petr Dvorak]

"Is 4.5K enough or should we be striving for 6K or 8K"

Ask at NHK

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1175598911.jpg

7.5K live broadcast from sea aquarium back in 2005

http://www.imageload.eu/out.php/t2451_NHKkeitoubig.jpg (http://www.imageload.eu/out.php/i2451_NHKkeitoubig.jpg)

[OwenR]

Making obsolence - obsolete - marketing spin?

And the developers need to keep moving im sure someone is thinking about
Red2...at Red?

Yes Red1 is adaptable,flexible,a revolution? and Ks arnt all thats required....
and of course we need the editing system to keep up with the camera....

So what about Red edit?

And indeed technology is allways moving on!? advancing?

Software developers create bigger and bigger programs to make sure they use the increased processing power but do they actually perform do anything better than the software that was around 20 years ago?

And as someone mentioned look at MACs now have intels in them

Is Red One a G5 with old processor in it or a G5 with a Intel?
or should i say is the Mysterium?

The red one is a small miracle?

[PaulClements]

Making obsolence - obsolete - marketing spin?

Yes and no. Of course it sounds like an attractive proposition and in advertising a product there will always be a bit of give. But the line is justified to some degree. The camera will be upgradeable, even the sensor as new and improved versions are released. Theoretically there is little need to buy a second camera if the body of RedOne is future proofed.


And the developers need to keep moving im sure someone is thinking about
Red2...at Red?

Perhaps they might have a similar model to Visual Research, RedTwo might be a specialised camera that has very high frame rates yet the image quality would match that of RedOne and have onboard recording, it might also carry a far greater price tag though, with RedOne as their entry level camera and RedTwo and so on as high price bespoke models.


Yes Red1 is adaptable,flexible,a revolution? and Ks arnt all thats required....
and of course we need the editing system to keep up with the camera....

I don't think the editing systems are much to worry about, not with the advances in desktop power. Online 4k editing for an average user isn't too far away.


So what about Red edit?

And indeed technology is allways moving on!? advancing?

Software developers create bigger and bigger programs to make sure they use the increased processing power but do they actually perform do anything better than the software that was around 20 years ago?

And as someone mentioned look at MACs now have intels in them

Is Red One a G5 with old processor in it or a G5 with a Intel?
or should i say is the Mysterium?

Computers and cameras are different kettle of fish altogether. Computers are driven by various needs; gaming, business, video, music, web and so on and so forth. The devices created for computers are aimed at a wide variety of users and methods of using that computer and there is a greater level of competition for the best product because there is such a large market. The market is wide spread with billions of users of computers worldwide, a digital cinema camera's market is a cottage industry and aimed at the few. Red will sell thousands of cameras, but never millions (Unless their market changed to consumer video).


The red one is a small miracle?

Without doubt it is a huge leap forward. Without Red the options for individuals with relatively low budgets would still be based around cameras such as HVX and 35mm adapters or renting expensive equipment. RedOne represents a camera that has an entry level semi professional pricetag with the feature set greater than many if not all of the current digital cinema cameras available. A miracle? probably too strong a language for my tastes... a Revolution? In terms of pricing, no doubt about it, in terms of the product probably a natural evolution of the digital cinema camera, albeit years ahead of that evolutionary step, and therefore from a business point of view also revolutionary.

[TimothyD]

I think that the upgradeability is the most appealing aspect of the Red One.

Let's put it this way, has Sony ever even considered offering a digital VTR section to go on a BetacamSP camera? Nope, they know if they did no one would buy new cameras. Red is different in that respect, and that alone, not the 4k, not the nice design, not the codec or recording options, is what makes me want to buy this camera over the competition.

This is the crux of the argument I make whenever I encounter someone who thinks I am crazy for wanting to buy this camera. They say I am crazy to buy a new camera from a new company, and I say they are crazy to buy a camera from a dinosaur of a company who cares not if the users can save money by upgrading rather than buying a new camera...

Tim

[RED-Tank]

Even without the innovative feature like modularised-design and upgradeable-physical-component, if REDONE can be run for 5 years without getting into any major maintenance issue (surely handle with care). I am sure REDONE would easily earn it credit to be the best of the best advanced camera.

I won't dream of RED-Two too much bcs it is likely more pricy with features probably used only in movie like Matrix-return or X-men IV.

I would hope for a RED-LITE to target mass prosumer market, a 1080p 60fps with 35mm len mount, weighted 500 gram !! hoo hoo hoo... it costs only half a RED-ONE ^+++^.

And Sony might call it "soRED"

[feb31films]

I think exactly the same way as obin. The DSLR market is much more mature than the digital video market, and I think many still photographers have lost their fixation with having more pixels.

I hate to get nit picky here, but can we stop referring to RED as a digital "video" camera? First, video usually implies a tape format of some kind and second: Shooting 4K at 24 progressive frames to a Flash or HD module that will go immediately to editing - there is nothing "video" about that.

Though many of us here have made a living (and continue to do so) in the digital video market, RED's heredity lies in the DSLR market. A digital evolution (revolution?) of a film based technology. Jannard's love of digital photography is no secret and I don't think he was out to build a better "video" camera, but a true digital FILM camera.

Anyway, I did not mean to offend anyone with the above remark, but I had to get that off my chest. Sometimes a clarification in terminology is helpful.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I hate to get nit picky here, but can we stop referring to RED as a digital "video" camera? First, video usually implies a tape format of some kind and second: Shooting 4K at 24 progressive frames to a Flash or HD module that will go immediately to editing - there is nothing "video" about that.
.

Term video comes from latin, which means to see.

We got used to using that term for tape based video
but video recording devices have evolved over time...it's still video, just different.

Probably "digital cine camera" would be the most appropriate.

[Ken Corben]

so are we buying in to a system that will expand .....

I'd gamble RED is in it to win it so yes it will expand perhaps exponentially.


Whats the shelf life of a Red One?

Easily 3 years as HDTV and digital cinema continues to roll out in new territories.


Is it like a pc 5 years then move on or....Less...

Even if this is true think about the cost to originate with RED One over the next five years compared to the costs of other options - no brainer really from a Producer's point of view.


Are we all better off waiting for Red Two....the bigger better more dynamic....

HELL NO! This is a quantum leap in capability/cost/benefit camera acquisition mode. By the time RED Two rolls around history will have already been made.


Is 4.5K enough or should we be striving for 6K or 8K .....Red 2 is in development will we have to just drop Red One and move on??

Well, in broadcast television there is no point or benefit beyond 4K or even 2K for that matter given the compression ratios. In digital cinema I would say there is a point of diminishing return in the 5 year plan - 2K will still deliver with a great story.


And how do we handle all this data??

That's the $64K question to wit more will be revealed. There are some great threads on this forum analysing LTO3 and DLT 4 as current storage solutions for the data with amazing alternatives on the horizon.