Cooke Optics Announces Red Digital Cinema Support for /i Technology [Archive]

Curran Giddens

04-03-2007, 06:28 AM

Since I cannot afford a Cooke lens with i Technology, but still want to save the lens data for post-production, I plan on using View Factor's repeatable FIZ. The remote FIZ records the lens parameters so you can repeat it. If there is a web interface you could save the parameters (maybe even feed it to the metadata), if there is no web interface you could still watch the lens repeat the FIZ and write down the parameters.

Andrew M.

04-03-2007, 06:32 AM

Hmm also interesting is there is a new Cooke 300mm, T2.8, strangely similar to a certain Red lens due around the same time I believe lol... Pure Speculation this one!!! :)

And what is this?
http://www.cookeoptics.com/
-------------------------------------
New from Cooke

Cooke 300mm, T2.8, the newest addition to the Cooke S4 family of Prime lenses. Order now for July 2007 delivery.

Chris Gearhart

04-03-2007, 06:40 AM

Thinking about it perhaps this is why the first lot of cameras have suddenly been delayed... Maybe this was the late edition which has caused it.

That's was what I thought when I saw it too. Kinda makes your eyes well up, don't it.

PaulClements

04-03-2007, 07:00 AM

That's was what I thought when I saw it too. Kinda makes your eyes well up, don't it.

lol...

It's certainly a feature that will command a bit more respect for the camera from professionals, a good move by Red, no doubt about it.

If there were other features such as this being incoporated into the camera I'd be more than willing to wait for them. Quality is a commodity reserved only for those who invest time and skill.

Curran Giddens

04-03-2007, 07:11 AM

I think that Red and Cooke cooperate very very closely

Maybe Cooke will even license the i Technology for use in RED lenses! Yeah right, probably not THAT closely.

PaulClements

04-03-2007, 07:31 AM

That's an interesting point though Curran...

Warning: Speculation hat on!

RedOne is compatible with /i lenses... IF cooke were making Red lenses (As has been banded about once or twice) then it would give good reason for people to still buy Cooke lenses over Reds if the Cooke lenses offered the /i feedback when used with RedOne and the Red lenses did not. Perhaps this is all part of the agreement between the two companies in order for Cooke to go ahead with making Red's lenses. I don't suppose we'll ever know much about where the lenses come from but there are some subtle hints to a Cooke and Red partnership, having said that you could probably find subtle hints between a great many other companies if you looked hard enough.

Speculation hat off! :)

Barend Onneweer

04-03-2007, 07:44 AM

Maybe Cooke will even license the i Technology for use in RED lenses! Yeah right, probably not THAT closely.

Well, the press release states:

"Seeing an opportunity to provide digital cinematographers with even more tools, Red Digital Cinema recently added /i Technology to the specification for forthcoming releases of its Red One 4k digital camera and Red lumina and prime lenses."

The way I read this is that certain RED lenses will support /i technology.

Paris Remillard

04-03-2007, 08:06 AM

>The way I read this is that certain RED lenses will support /i technology.<

Me too.

Brook Willard

04-03-2007, 08:25 AM

Great find. It's like all the xmas presents are slowly leaking out from under the tree... and exploding into the news.

That said, I'm stunned that more companies aren't able to obey NDAs.

Zakaree Sandberg

04-03-2007, 08:37 AM

Well, the press release states:

Red Digital Cinema recently added /i Technology to the specification for forthcoming releases of its Red One 4k digital camera and Red lumina and prime lenses."

wait a sec... did i recently miss something.. it mentions red prime lenses?? is there a prime set?

PaulClements

04-03-2007, 08:38 AM

I only just saw the thread in the Lens test part of the forum and the press release linked to from there does indicate that /i technology will be built into the lenses (The Zoom strangely being refered to as Lumina).

Has Cooke let any other lens manufacturer use /i technology before? The press release seems to imply that by adopting it in their lenses, Red is helping to streamline the world of lens data information... but surely /i is one of Cooke's components that seperates them from the rest? So it's fair to assume that Red must be working with Cooke to put that technology into their own lenses, question is to what extent? Are Cooke manufacturing parts for Red or just helping in the design process of the lenses? Or are they infact making the complete lens?... Don't you just love a good conspiracy theory :)

Brook Willard

04-03-2007, 08:52 AM

[edit: actually, nevermind. This has just as much to do with the camera as it does the lenses...]

Paul Leeming

04-03-2007, 09:28 AM

My thoughts on this, for what they're worth (again, pure speculation):

Cooke is regarded as one of the best (if not THE best) lens manufacturers in the world, but as a result their lenses are also some of the most expensive. That expense makes the company its own worst enemy, causing the volume of lens sales to be quite low and facing much the same market forces as traditional camera companies. How do you expand your business once the majority of people who can afford it own your product?

Enter Red, with the stated goal of democratising digital cinema by offering a first tier product at prosumer prices. As a result Red expect to sell thousands of the cameras, a good proportion to people who look at a lens the price of a car or house and say "no way!".

Now imagine you are Cooke. Here is a golden opportunity to shift from low volume/high price to a much higher volume, with the corresponding lowering of price enabling many more people to use your lenses. Red contacts you early on and says they love your lenses and they'd make a natural fit for the camera, but at the prices you're selling them for you'll get largely overlooked in favour of cheaper lenses.

Red suggests a new strategy - let us rebrand your lenses as our own, so you maintain your brand name as a premium lens manufacturer. We'll sell them at a fraction of the price you charge, but we'll sell thousands, not the hundred or so you might sell this year, to make up for it. It might even be ok to have a similar product stratification as Intel does with their CPUs - keep the 100% perfect lenses for yourself and call them Cookes, and we'll take the 99% perfect lenses off your hands and call them Red lenses instead. Chances are no one will see the difference and you'll make a lot more money as a result. Everybody wins!

I guess now all I have to do is sit back and wait for NAB to see if I'm right or wrong. either way it's fun to speculate!!! :)

Jeff Kilgroe

04-03-2007, 10:29 AM

The Cooke theory seems kinda neat and all, but I'm betting RED is manufacturing their own lenses.

Andrew M.

04-03-2007, 10:40 AM

The Cooke theory seems kinda neat and all, but I'm betting RED is manufacturing their own lenses.

Volume increase of 4000% for Cooke it may bring the company down if not planned very carefully.
Volume production by RED in 2 years span without the partner that has a lot of experience in it, will be very very difficult.

So maybe there is a third option?

BTW the 40-80 times higher volume of production in the lenses business it mean different technology have to be used. So the lenses will be different.
What could be done at quantities of 2 a week can't be done at 160 a week in some business.

Finner

04-03-2007, 10:46 AM

The Cooke theory seems kinda neat and all, but I'm betting RED is manufacturing their own lenses.

I would be highly suprised if red makes their own lenses. Sunglasses (be it the best sunglasses in the world) are not anywhere in the same league as optical lenses. Red would have to hire away a lot of top lense engineers from companies to start.

Precision and experience are the key to any top lense manufacturer and if red decides to make their own I would be very leery of them.

JVB

04-03-2007, 10:51 AM

I would be highly suprised if red makes their own lenses. Sunglasses (be it the best sunglasses in the world) are not anywhere in the same league as optical lenses. Red would have to hire away a lot of top lense engineers from companies to start.

Precision and experience are the key to any top lense manufacturer and if red decides to make their own I would be very leery of them.

WHY? honda makes cars does that mean their motorcycles suck and they don't know how to make them

jbeale

04-03-2007, 10:55 AM

Finner

04-03-2007, 11:01 AM

WHY? honda makes cars does that mean their motorcycles suck and they don't know how to make them

WTF

Cars and Motorcycles???????????????????????????????????

What part of that has anything to do with the physics of optical lenses.

This kind of logic would be like saying "Ferrari makes good cars and they have glass in their windshield and they are european and many of the best cine glass companies are european and also use glass so I bet Ferrari could make good cine lenses.

Cine Lenses are not something a company just steps into and starts making. Read the history of cooke, ziess or angenuix and you will see the years of precision optics experience that went into the development of world class lenses.

Jeff Kilgroe

04-03-2007, 11:02 AM

I would be highly suprised if red makes their own lenses. Sunglasses (be it the best sunglasses in the world) are not anywhere in the same league as optical lenses. Red would have to hire away a lot of top lense engineers from companies to start.

Yeah, but that's basically what was said about RED and a 4K camera.

Precision and experience are the key to any top lense manufacturer and if red decides to make their own I would be very leery of them.

I'm not saying RED doesn't have partners in the industry, even companies like Cooke who might be supplying components or may have provided assistance with the designs. The glass itself is what I'm really curious about. Jim has made a couple passing comments here regarding all he could share about "glass" and how this ties in with the RED lenses. Just the impression I get, but I still think RED will manufacture their own lenses. Or at least do the assembly and construction of many of the major pieces. I guess we'll see what happens at NAB. But we may not know the answer to this question anytime soon.

donatello b

04-03-2007, 11:05 AM

something to think about ...3 months ago there was info on digital cinema primes ( for single sensor) at Elite lenses web site that would be offered in summer-fall ... yesterday there was no info or mention of em ... elite also makes a 18-80mm 2.8 35mm zoom ... elite use to call their lenses Illumina ..
now if Las Vegas was taking odds ? would you bet on cooke , elite, optar, or somebody else making em ??

perhaps RED is designing them - stating they want #2 schott glass as 3rd element and X glass 2nd element by X manufacturer etc ...somebody is doing the fab work ?? so could end up with several pieces of glass by different manufacturers ...

JVB

04-03-2007, 11:31 AM

WTF

Cars and Motorcycles???????????????????????????????????

What part of that has anything to do with the physics of optical lenses.

This kind of logic would be like saying "Ferrari makes good cars and they have glass in their windshield and they are european and many of the best cine glass companies are european and also use glass so I bet Ferrari could make good cine lenses.

Cine Lenses are not something a company just steps into and starts making. Read the history of cooke, ziess or angenuix and you will see the years of precision optics experience that went into the development of world class lenses.

I was merely making an analogy. I undersatnd making cars and optics are two different things. But do you really think red and oakley can't make a high quality lens for the red camera? ;)

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/02/hd4nds-exclusive-interview-with-jim

read the Last line of question 3

Ace

04-03-2007, 12:00 PM

I would be highly suprised if red makes their own lenses. Sunglasses (be it the best sunglasses in the world) are not anywhere in the same league as optical lenses. Red would have to hire away a lot of top lense engineers from companies to start.

Precision and experience are the key to any top lense manufacturer and if red decides to make their own I would be very leery of them.

I wouldnt be surprised if Oakley is licensing some of its patents to Nikon and Zeiss! From what I've read, Oakley does have significant IP on lens designs and manufacturing techniques.

chuck colburn

04-03-2007, 12:07 PM

I wouldnt be surprised if Oakley is licensing some of its patents to Nikon and Zeiss! From what I've read, Oakley does have significant IP on lens designs and manufacturing techniques.

Acehole,

Makes sense to me. Even Nikon and Pentax do not make all of their own lenses. Zeiss has some of their still camera lenses made by Cosina and another Japanese company. Fujinon (Fuji Optical) is the worlds largest manufacturer of optical imaging devices and makes lenses that are branded for many different companys.

Chuck

Clayton Harper

04-03-2007, 12:29 PM

Michael Schrengohst

04-03-2007, 12:47 PM

http://slowmotioninc.com/sales/35_lenses.htm

Robert Jackson

04-03-2007, 01:19 PM

http://slowmotioninc.com/sales/35_lenses.htm

Anyone ever seen a price list for those? I know the Kinor site says that they're $5000 per lens. Someone recently said that there's a lot of slop in their gearing, but you never know about things until you mess with them yourself. If that 9.6mm T2 is anything like the Ultra Prime T2.8/8R then I'd want one. Besides, who cares about gearing when you've got focus at T8 from a couple of feet to infinity? ;-)

Damien Molineaux

04-03-2007, 01:44 PM

FWIW, Jim already mentioned in a post some time ago (few months..?) that the Red lenses would not be made by Oakley.

EDIT: I stand corrected, I thought Jim posted that some time ago but all I can find now is the opposite from the HDforIndies interview at http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/02/hd4nds-exclusive-interview-with-jim

[...] One last note, the RED camera is NOT being done at Oakley, but the program has the backing of Oakley resources. The lenses will be done by Oakley.

I remember Jim saying the lenses were not being made by Oakley and here's a link from DVi where Rob Lohman says Red lenses are NOT being made by Oakley (or see the picture below) :
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87851

Cheers,
Damien

david farland

04-03-2007, 04:33 PM

I wouldnt be surprised if Oakley is licensing some of its patents to Nikon and Zeiss! From what I've read, Oakley does have significant IP on lens designs and manufacturing techniques.

Where's Miss Marple? Inspector Morse?

I was thinking what are the facts and considered I didn't want to read ever post for the last 15 months!

Plan B: What are the biggest facts?

You're cashed up, you love cameras and lenses....you can nearly get most manufacturing companies to produce a range of ccds, lenses for you.
With your small design team you need to rely on 3rd parties for hard manufacturing experience and a lot of design experience. I'll go out on a limb here and say for cine lenses you need to outsource your lens design and manufacture. For lenses design you need someone who's done it before and you need this design coupled to the manufacturing process even if its an outsourced one. Going way out, this is probably a commission of a large lens design or/and manufacturing company. Say it was Nikon (or is it Zeiss?) with their outsourced asian manufacturing plant? Why would you keep on plugging Cooke?

Cheers,

Robert Jackson

04-03-2007, 04:46 PM

Say it was Nikon (or is it Zeiss?) with their outsourced asian manufacturing plant? Why would you keep on plugging Cooke?

Cheers,

That Cosina plant turns out some lovely lenses. Some of the Voigtlander glass is great. Oakley has some pretty extensive experience with optical glass, though. If they wanted to start building lenses in-house I don't think the voodoo of lens design would be beyond them.

Zakaree Sandberg

04-03-2007, 10:46 PM

i would loveeee to own my own lens manufacturing company.. or at least branding company:)

Pete Horvath

04-03-2007, 11:28 PM

Or how about Leitz Canada (ELCAN) who manufactured Panavision primo lenses?

http://www.elcan.com/About_ELCAN/ELCAN_History/

Cheers,
Pete

Brook Willard

04-04-2007, 12:06 AM

RED guys... I don't suppose it's worth asking any questions on the nature of the /i technology integration until NAB, eh?

ChristopherKenworthy

04-04-2007, 12:24 AM

RED guys... I don't suppose it's worth asking any questions on the nature of the /i technology integration until NAB, eh?

Don't you just love the way the RED guys go so quiet when a thread is this interesting. I always take that as an indication that we're getting a bit too close to the truth - which probably has to wait until NAB.

Jannard

04-04-2007, 12:29 AM

You know what happens when you "assume".

Jim

ChristopherKenworthy

04-04-2007, 12:31 AM

You know what happens when you "assume".

Jim

Which is why I like this place, amongst other reasons...

Clayton Harper

04-04-2007, 06:03 AM

You know what happens when you "assume".

Jim

You start smelling like butt.

Greg Voevodsky

04-04-2007, 10:52 AM

You CAN'T handle the truth. ;-)

My bet is Cooke is manufacturing the lense (note- it is slower than their normal lenses and thus more affordable along with the large production numbers.) I'd think RED is going to add their logo.

Other than that there is no difference. Or we might get a SPECIAL "RED COOKE" edition with serial number and a Titanium "RC" key.

Stokestack

04-04-2007, 02:51 PM

This sounds promising, but the question is whether other vendors can freely build compatible lenses or adapters. The "/i" protocol standard is downloadable as an Acrobat doc from Cooke. But what if someone else builds a box or lens adapter that gathers data and sends it in "/i" format to the Red?

Potential notwithstanding, I hope they didn't pay someone to come up with this wretched name. "/i"? Seriously, try doing a Web search on that. I thought Pentax's "*istD" was bad, but this is possibly worse because of its near uselessness as a search target.

Robert Jackson

04-04-2007, 02:54 PM

Potential notwithstanding, I hope they didn't pay someone to come up with this wretched name. "/i"? Seriously, try doing a Web search on that. I thought Pentax's "*istD" was bad, but this is possibly worse because of its near uselessness as a search target.

What's to search? You don't know where the Cooke Optics site is? ;-)

Gavin Greenwalt

04-05-2007, 11:19 PM

Bah! Jim doesn't know anything, he's just a puppet for Sony's secret conspiracy plans to sell us their new sensor designs for cheap!

Greg M

04-06-2007, 11:13 AM

This is a very nice surprise...will be a huge asset for our effects work.

Stokestack

04-06-2007, 05:04 PM

What's to search? You don't know where the Cooke Optics site is? ;-)

If this technology is the means of getting lens settings into our Red metadata, we'd better hope it's mentioned on more than just the Cooke Web site.

Thus my question, which I'll repeat: Is this an open standard, for which compatible equipment can be made by anybody? If it is, you'd expect a Web search to turn up other vendors or interest groups that are adopting it. When such a search is hampered by the technology's very name, it starts at a disadvantage, don't you think?

Robert Jackson

04-06-2007, 05:06 PM

Thus my question, which I'll repeat: Is this an open standard, for which compatible equipment can be made by anybody?

I'll bet a call to Cooke would clear that up for you faster than a web search. ;-)

Greg M

04-06-2007, 05:14 PM

I dont know if this is an open standard. I believe it is likely licensed by either Cooke or Arri. Its been around for awhile for use on Arri 35mm cameras and Zeiss or Cooke lenses. Those who need to know what it is, do... who cares what they call it?

I am just glad it has been added to the camera (assuming it actually has) as this will be a major asset for any type of effects work.