Digital Media Options for Dummies

[Paul Wizikowski]

Could someone more in tune with the RED jargon and the current state of development please explain in simple terms the pros and cons of each Digital Media Option. I would really like to better understand what has already been announced before I get to NAB and get overwhelmed with the expected volume of updates, releases, general information, and other announcements.

Much appreciated,
Paul

[JD Holloway]

Agreed,

I wish I knew which one, if only one, would be the (relatively) best option.
Any help appreciated. I know this IT storage based media will change even this year...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Do a search lots of discussion on this already - even for the complete novice.

In a nutshell:

RED DRIVE -- storage magazine constructed of 2x160GB 2.5" Hard Drives.

RED RAM -- same as RED DRIVE, but uses 2.5" FLASH based drives (solid state disk / SSD).

Both mount on your camera system somewhere and attach via an eSATA cable (non-standard connector with power).

Then there are the FLASH Module options

These attach to a separate eSATA interface right on the side of the camera. Only one of these modules can be mounted at any given time (ASSumption) and we don't know yet how many pieces of media each will hold or use simultaneously.

CF FLASH Module -- Uses standard CF (Compact Flash) media cards.

ExpressCard Module -- Uses ExpressCard format storage devices. The ExpressCard is the new form of PC card slot that replaces PCMCIA on the new Macbook Pro and many new PC notebook systems.

1.8" SATA -- Uses 1.8" FLASH drives (SSD) like the above mentioned RED RAM. Just smaller form factor. 1.8" hard drives on the market now are used in devices like iPods and HDD camcorders or other media players. 32GB 1.8" SSDs are available now and 64GB models have been announced and should ship soon. Prices on these will continue to plummet over the next few years as capacities expand very quickly. ...Same for the other two FLASH options and also the RED RAM mentioned above.

Based on what we know now, I would pick the 1.8" SATA FLASH module as the best choice over the next year or so. However, certain workflow considerations may be better suited for ExpressCard FLASH. The CF FLASH module would be a good option if you were getting your camera right now as it's the only FLASH format of the three that is commonly available in 8 and 16 GB capacities right now.

[Paul Wizikowski]

Thanks for the response, it helps. That said I basically understand what the different options are, I don't have a good understanding of why one would be more appropriate than another. Other than allowing flexibility for each user to cusomize their own workflow, are any of these options technically more superior in performance, speed, or security than the others? Can I shoot in all of the cameras formats with all of these Media Options?

There is quite a lot of ASSuming going on throughout this forum and so its often difficult, especially for an IT novice, to weed through it all.

Thanks,
Paul

[Chris Kenny]

Other than allowing flexibility for each user to cusomize their own workflow, are any of these options technically more superior in performance, speed, or security than the others? Can I shoot in all of the cameras formats with all of these Media Options?


The speed ordering, from fastest to slowest, will probably be:


RED RAM
1.8" SATA
ExpressCard
Compact Flash


What implications this will have for shooting formats is not very well known at this point. (Outside of Red, of course.)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yep.. The 1.8" SATA format will probably grow in capacity much faster than the ExpressCard and CF formats too just because manufacturers can physically pack more FLASH chips inside of one. RED RAM will ultimately be the biggest fastest option once 2.5" SSDs take hold of the notebook computer market and replace hard drives. We should know more at NAB, but the FLASH market is super hot right now and evolving fast. What happens at NAB is definitely going to be a far cry from what will be available later this year.

[Paul Wizikowski]

So, does it seem that the 2.5" SATA that is used in the RED ONE is a proprietary hardware to RED. Or could one potentially use third party 2.5" SATA drives similiar to whats listed in the link below?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/FlashSSD/index.htm

[LEON]

I love to read you all and learn a lot
now speaking of links, have seen this one ?

http://www.adtron.com/products/A25fb-SerialATAFlashDisk.html

[Richard Andrewski]

So, does it seem that the 2.5" SATA that is used in the RED ONE is a proprietary hardware to RED. Or could one potentially use third party 2.5" SATA drives similiar to whats listed in the link below?

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/FlashSSD/index.htm

Until the eSata connector they used is commonly available then I'd say yes it is proprietary. Has anyone seen that connector before in another eSata external enclosure?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So, does it seem that the 2.5" SATA that is used in the RED ONE is a proprietary hardware to RED. Or could one potentially use third party 2.5" SATA drives similiar to whats listed in the link below?

The 2.5" hard drives inside the RED DRIVE as well as the 2.5" SSDs inside the RED RAM are most likely off the shelf SATA interface components. Theoretically, you could crack open one of those units and use different ones in place of the ones included... For example, down the road when larger capacities come available.

But I don't know if that would really be that workable of a solution. Considering RED DRIVE is a custom enclosure with a RAID subsystem all in a compact form. I'm assuming it has extra features for withstanding shock and vibration, etc... I don't think the price is out of line. There's also the FLASH module options as well. You buy the module and you can supply your own FLASH media. I'm predicting that I'll buy the 1.8" SATA FLASH option and will be supplying my own 1.8" SSDs for use with it -- like the newly announced 64GB Samsung units.

[Drew Mylrea]

That samsung page gives some interesting clues about the differences in durability between flash and hard drive solutions. At the bottom it reads that the flash modules can operate in 20G's of vibration, where an HD can only operate in 0.67G's. Hmmm, exited to hear from the first RED skydiving testers...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

REDRaid: 2.5" Drives. Hours of 2k or 4k. Warning: strong shocks may result in lost frames.
REDFlash: Minutes of 2k or 4k. Results in the camera being entirely solid state except for the lens. Shock resilliant.
REDCompact Flash: Currently too slow for 4k. Very small capacity. Cheap and dropping in price/increasing in capacity and speed. A good alternative in the future.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

wait.. too slow for 4k redcode or too slow for 4k raw

[Gavin Greenwalt]

wait.. too slow for 4k redcode or too slow for 4k raw

Both. Most CF/SD etc are 18MBs. You need sustained 27MB+

[Corrado Silveri]

REDRaid: 2.5" Drives. Hours of 2k or 4k. Warning: strong shocks may result in lost frames.
REDFlash: Minutes of 2k or 4k. Results in the camera being entirely solid state except for the lens. Shock resilliant.
REDCompact Flash: Currently too slow for 4k. Very small capacity. Cheap and dropping in price/increasing in capacity and speed. A good alternative in the future.

Maaany thanks.
This is really clear.
I've used to shoot Dvcprohd using Focus Enhancements Firestore.
A lot of problem with the devices (really a crap software) but never lost a single frame for a shock (tripod/dolly/steadicam 100%).

I will definitely go for the drives.

[Gopher77]

I love to read you all and learn a lot
now speaking of links, have seen this one ?

http://www.adtron.com/products/A25fb-SerialATAFlashDisk.html

Didn't see a price on those but look very interesting. What peaked my interest even more was;

http://www.adtron.com/products/S35fb.html

Could these be configured in some sort of a self contained raid enclosure that could be mounted on the red cage for a recording medium out of the Raw port?

[Poi Boy]

bottom line is, you can not make an intelligent decision on what will suit you best until NAB.
Aloha
-A

[quailman]

REDRaid: 2.5" Drives. Hours of 2k or 4k. Warning: strong shocks may result in lost frames.
REDFlash: Minutes of 2k or 4k. Results in the camera being entirely solid state except for the lens. Shock resilliant.
REDCompact Flash: Currently too slow for 4k. Very small capacity. Cheap and dropping in price/increasing in capacity and speed. A good alternative in the future.

That's some helpful information. Thanks.
Any better estimates for how many hours/minutes the drives will hold? or are we still waiting on details to know specifics? any reasonable estimation would be helpful to me.