Brian Langeman
05-14-2008, 11:07 AM
This thread is not for debating anyone's faith or religion. It is not for discussing Christian movies or filmmaking, and it is not for finding out who's right or wrong.
I would just ask that everyone, no matter what you consider yourself to be, respect that and not take it off topic. I think I'm being quite reasonable with that request. This is to try and keep the peace, not to cause conflict.
This is to determine what kind of discussions RED Users as a whole, and in particular the moderators, want to see on this forum. To see how we would like to conduct ourselves on here, especially considering we all would like to consider ourselves as mature adults. I can see how that could be quite a lofty goal, and possibly not be reached considering how unwieldy the internet can be, especially when it is possible for anonymity on this site. But I think it's worth a try to reach it rather than to sit back and see everything go to hell.
I don't claim to be an authority on legal issues, so feel free to correct me if you can prove that I'm wrong on this. I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong and being educated. I've read that the Supreme Court in the US has extended to the internet (which this forum is a part of and no one can possibly argue that fact) the full protection of the First Amendment. The court's decision identified the Internet as a "free speech zone". The exceptions to the general protection of speech, includes the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. None of which have been violated by the threads in the Off Topic section here.
That being said, this forum is clearly censored as posts have been deleted or edited by moderators. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or even wrong, because I can respect the views of the people who are hosting this place for people "around the whole world" to communicate with each other.
Hate speech is a term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.
Now, I am not looking to sue anyone or anything, and I am not looking to be nitpicking at every single thing being said either. Our time is much better spent learning about how to make great pictures. My point here is this. Take a look at the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread if you don't believe me. Do you see any remarks from anyone who claims to be a Christian which violates the laws of free speech or resembles hate speech in any way? I can't find any.
The same laws of free speech that allow people to speak against the very people who make the laws, or against people's beliefs in a mature way are the same laws that allow people to express their beliefs. We weren't even evangelizing. The only time that you could maybe consider my words to resemble preaching was when I was responding to a question from someone else or when someone was stereotyping all Christians into certain things Christians think based on a few high profile individuals.
"Maybe you guys need to abandon the vanity of this endeavor, of thinking you have all the answers, that you know so much more than those who decline to embrace your faith, if you want to make good films." It's comments like these that are the cause of the thread being closed down, and I would consider it borderline hate speech on the grounds of degrading or trying to incite prejudicial action against a group of people based on moral or political views. Regardless of whether it's hate speech or not, it isn't intended to keep the peace, but to cause conflict.
There is a very valid reason for starting the thread "Christian Filmmakers?" on this forum. For a minute, forget about the word Christian, and think of another subject. At the moment dinosaurs popped into my mind for no apparent reason, so I'll go with that. Let's say someone is making a documentary on dinosaurs, digging them up or something, doesn't matter. He is also purchasing a RED One because it seems like the most bang for the buck to him. He is also involved in RED User because he enjoys learning about all of the aspects of filmmaking and wants to get the best footage out of his RED that he can. Maybe he needs help with it. He might need to get footage faster and needs another crew because he can't be at 2 places at once. Obviously he still wants the best quality footage he can get without breaking the bank, just like all of us.
So he starts a thread called "Paleontology Filmmakers?". He does this in search of other filmmakers that share the same passion that he does. He titles it that way because it will probably get the attention of other paleontologists a lot better than a thread that's called "Who wants to help me out with my documentary on Dinosaurs?". The former is short, to the point, seems more professionally worded, so it should only logically attract more serious people who he can collaborate with. It doesn't really matter if Paleontology Filmmakers is technically wrong to say, because he's not debating whether or not it is. He's simply trying to find other like minded people on RED User.
It is also probably 50 times more efficient doing it on RED User than if he were to post the same thread on a paleontology forum, because he's looking for people who have a RED One. I highly doubt he would get any help that he was looking for in another forum.
You can take every situation in that example and apply it to the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread. No one was trying to intrude or push anyone's faith on anyone else. The thread was functioning very well for a while, and people were meeting other people with similar passions who they wouldn't have known about otherwise. It has been a great asset to anyone interested in it, and I don't believe that is has hurt anyone.
This is a pretty long winded post. But it gets out my thoughts more efficiently than arguing back and forth for 20 posts, and perhaps I'll take a week long break from writing on here after this. I just ask that people can remain polite and respective in this thread, because there is no need to be rude as I don't think I have been.
To summarize, this post comes from not wanting to see other posts like the "Christian Filmmakers?" one closed down due to anyone trying to cause conflict whether they're Christian, Atheist, Muslim, whatever it is. If they aren't allowed because of the moderators' or Jim's rules than that's a different story, and I can respect that, as this is their house in the end. I think a community of mature adults should be able to coexist and get along even with their different beliefs though. If you want to challenge something we say, then by all means PM us, as the forum isn't the place for spiritual debates. I haven't perceived any injustices caused by the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread, and as others have stated in it, I thought it was great that a discussion as that was taking place here at RED User.
Brian
I would just ask that everyone, no matter what you consider yourself to be, respect that and not take it off topic. I think I'm being quite reasonable with that request. This is to try and keep the peace, not to cause conflict.
This is to determine what kind of discussions RED Users as a whole, and in particular the moderators, want to see on this forum. To see how we would like to conduct ourselves on here, especially considering we all would like to consider ourselves as mature adults. I can see how that could be quite a lofty goal, and possibly not be reached considering how unwieldy the internet can be, especially when it is possible for anonymity on this site. But I think it's worth a try to reach it rather than to sit back and see everything go to hell.
I don't claim to be an authority on legal issues, so feel free to correct me if you can prove that I'm wrong on this. I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong and being educated. I've read that the Supreme Court in the US has extended to the internet (which this forum is a part of and no one can possibly argue that fact) the full protection of the First Amendment. The court's decision identified the Internet as a "free speech zone". The exceptions to the general protection of speech, includes the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. None of which have been violated by the threads in the Off Topic section here.
That being said, this forum is clearly censored as posts have been deleted or edited by moderators. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or even wrong, because I can respect the views of the people who are hosting this place for people "around the whole world" to communicate with each other.
Hate speech is a term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.
Now, I am not looking to sue anyone or anything, and I am not looking to be nitpicking at every single thing being said either. Our time is much better spent learning about how to make great pictures. My point here is this. Take a look at the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread if you don't believe me. Do you see any remarks from anyone who claims to be a Christian which violates the laws of free speech or resembles hate speech in any way? I can't find any.
The same laws of free speech that allow people to speak against the very people who make the laws, or against people's beliefs in a mature way are the same laws that allow people to express their beliefs. We weren't even evangelizing. The only time that you could maybe consider my words to resemble preaching was when I was responding to a question from someone else or when someone was stereotyping all Christians into certain things Christians think based on a few high profile individuals.
"Maybe you guys need to abandon the vanity of this endeavor, of thinking you have all the answers, that you know so much more than those who decline to embrace your faith, if you want to make good films." It's comments like these that are the cause of the thread being closed down, and I would consider it borderline hate speech on the grounds of degrading or trying to incite prejudicial action against a group of people based on moral or political views. Regardless of whether it's hate speech or not, it isn't intended to keep the peace, but to cause conflict.
There is a very valid reason for starting the thread "Christian Filmmakers?" on this forum. For a minute, forget about the word Christian, and think of another subject. At the moment dinosaurs popped into my mind for no apparent reason, so I'll go with that. Let's say someone is making a documentary on dinosaurs, digging them up or something, doesn't matter. He is also purchasing a RED One because it seems like the most bang for the buck to him. He is also involved in RED User because he enjoys learning about all of the aspects of filmmaking and wants to get the best footage out of his RED that he can. Maybe he needs help with it. He might need to get footage faster and needs another crew because he can't be at 2 places at once. Obviously he still wants the best quality footage he can get without breaking the bank, just like all of us.
So he starts a thread called "Paleontology Filmmakers?". He does this in search of other filmmakers that share the same passion that he does. He titles it that way because it will probably get the attention of other paleontologists a lot better than a thread that's called "Who wants to help me out with my documentary on Dinosaurs?". The former is short, to the point, seems more professionally worded, so it should only logically attract more serious people who he can collaborate with. It doesn't really matter if Paleontology Filmmakers is technically wrong to say, because he's not debating whether or not it is. He's simply trying to find other like minded people on RED User.
It is also probably 50 times more efficient doing it on RED User than if he were to post the same thread on a paleontology forum, because he's looking for people who have a RED One. I highly doubt he would get any help that he was looking for in another forum.
You can take every situation in that example and apply it to the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread. No one was trying to intrude or push anyone's faith on anyone else. The thread was functioning very well for a while, and people were meeting other people with similar passions who they wouldn't have known about otherwise. It has been a great asset to anyone interested in it, and I don't believe that is has hurt anyone.
This is a pretty long winded post. But it gets out my thoughts more efficiently than arguing back and forth for 20 posts, and perhaps I'll take a week long break from writing on here after this. I just ask that people can remain polite and respective in this thread, because there is no need to be rude as I don't think I have been.
To summarize, this post comes from not wanting to see other posts like the "Christian Filmmakers?" one closed down due to anyone trying to cause conflict whether they're Christian, Atheist, Muslim, whatever it is. If they aren't allowed because of the moderators' or Jim's rules than that's a different story, and I can respect that, as this is their house in the end. I think a community of mature adults should be able to coexist and get along even with their different beliefs though. If you want to challenge something we say, then by all means PM us, as the forum isn't the place for spiritual debates. I haven't perceived any injustices caused by the "Christian Filmmakers?" thread, and as others have stated in it, I thought it was great that a discussion as that was taking place here at RED User.
Brian