Yet Another Lower Budget Feature

[Jamey]

I need some sound advice. I'm shooting a feature on the Red for 23 days.
I have the budget to either hire a sound guy or buy the proper equipment and hire a film student..

I was hoping to go straight to camera, but that seems problematic.
I already have a Senn MKH 60, Rycote Wind System, booms, lavs, Rode NTG 2...etc....

I need some sort of sound mixer and perhaps a recorder.

Is it best to get the Sound Design MixPre and record straight to camera?
Or should I buy a separate recorder? And what which one would you suggest?


Thanks for your thoughts.

[Philippe Vandendriessche]

I suggest you to hire an experienced Location Mixer, a Boom Operator and the right equipment they will suggest you for your film.
Your sound track is as important as your picture.
A good sound equipment kit to do a feature film is as expensive as your Red camera and some lenses. If your budget is too low why not try to convince some co-producers?

[Nick Wolf]

Philippe,

Can you give a list of the essentials needed? This area is a big mystery for many shooters I think. It would be very enlightening to hear from someone who works specifically with this area.

Thank you,

DogDay

P.S. Also any books or links on this vast subject for some researching would be wonderful.

[Philippe Vandendriessche]

The "minimal" kit for a feature film is slightly different from one sound guy to another. Here in Belgium, we work like in France. We do "direct sound" very often (no post-sync or minimal). I will give you the list of my equipment. The recorder is an Aaton Cantar 8 tracks digital hard disk. That machine has been designed for the field with high level of quality. 5 microphone preamplifiers, 2 line inputs, 8 digital in/out, filters, limiters. With two batteries you can work 14 hours. Timecode, mixer, a lot of monitoring/routing possibilities and over the shoulder operation. The boom microphones I use are Schoeps CMIT, CMC6-mk41 with Cinela OSIX suspension and Rycote windshields. Four Micron or Sennheiser radio microphone systems with DPA microphones. Sennheiser Evolution 500 wireless monitoring systems for the "script girl" and the director. Denecke time code slate TS-C.
Sennheiser HD-25 headphones. Soundfield ST-350 surround microphone for 5.1 atmospheres.
I organize myself with a sound cart and a video return. See a photograph here: http://www.perchman.com/albums/index.php?alb=31&img=716

All that equipment is expensive (around 30000 EUR) and the average price for one week renting is 1200 EUR. The average cost for a Location sound mixer in Belgium is 450 EUR/day and 300 EUR/day for the boom operator on a 40h/week basis.

All those informations are to give you some "reference". I'm a very experienced technician ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0888700/ ) and I know sometimes (but I think "very often"), you have to be rich to do "low budget" shooting. It's very expensive to repair the damages of a bad soundtrack in post, and the sound is very important, even if it's a movie for internet. An experienced sound guy will warn you and help you to solve the problems even before the shooting. I'm teaching in a Film school and even the best students are not able to anticipate the problems (they will do their experience in your film...), and they don't have the status you need in a film crew to negociate with light and picture persons.

That's my advice. But we could share opinions of other sound persons of this forum.
Please excuse my poor english. I could be more eloquent in french!

[Nick Wolf]

That was lovely Philippe to hear and the English is great, you anticipated some of my next questions already in your last post here...Thanks.

Yes its crazy the price of everything but then again its good to know you have someone who can pull it off.

What is the plus and minus, the logic behind the choice of how its done in Belgium and France compared to how its done else where? There is process and then end result so what is the criteria?

What are the stages for creating the great sound for the different elements found in a full feature motion picture?

How much of what is done where? Is the sound being shaped along the way or is it captured and then processed at the end or both?

Do you think its best to have one or two guys working the whole pipe line from capture to finish and mix or do you think withing the realm of sound its best to have seperate guys taking care of the various stages, capture, editing, dialogue, mix, design, music, effects, etc etc etc.

This is a facinating area shrouded in mystik for many ( I being one ) all insight is of great interest and value.

Also do you feel its a correspondance between the various elements for example certain colors and light conditions demand a certain tone and pitch to bring out-insinuate some third element not present?

Much thanks!

DogDay
AKA
Nick Wolf

[MichaelP]

You want the highest quality recording you can get on the set with proper levels and the least amount of noise. You also want someone who can "hear" when a take is not good - the little subtle stuff as much as the big stuff. Organization is key - even how to hold a boom mike correctly, out of frame and anticipate who is speaking when with a turn of the wrist.

I just finished producing a low budget feature and we had a first time (student) mixer/boom operator and while we kept a close watch on the work, we were moving pretty fast and I ended up painting out about 12 shots of the mike in the frame as well as ADR on about 20 lines due to bad levels and not doing a good job on mike direction. All in all it was pretty good, but still had to deal with the issues in post. A good sound guy is priceless.

Michael

[Nick Wolf]

Michael,

It would be very interesting to hear more about your feature project, pretty funny with the boom in the frame now with hindsight but you must have freaked at the time.

I have very little exoerience with this and soon I will be doing something that is in many ways way over my head but WTF...What would have happened if you could turn back time and choose all over again? is there any advantage to doing the ADR right out of the gate? Isnt all the sound on Animated Features done that way why is that a negative in live action shows?

Yes some scenes where the acting if all lips are in view and the performance is inimicable and spontanious but alot of dialogue is pretty much about exposition in nature isnt it?

I mean yes ambiance but is it really the best way taking location sound of actors?

Tell me why because I really dont know.

DogDay

P.S.
If you were to make a list of the qualities of a great sound guy stuff to look for at an interview so you dont get stuck with a lemon.

[Noah Kadner]

Resigning yourself to ADR'ing your whole movie is an idea right up there with shooting the entire film with the lens cap on. It still blows my mind how many folks 'get' the idea that 4K is a great idea but good sound is something of an afterthought. Oh well, less competition at the video store I guess. :construction: :construction:

Noah

[10s]

You want a pro movie,........ get pros.

How about changing the question around.

I have a pro audio guy and a camera. Do you think I should hire a student to shoot the picture? he doesn't know much but afterall, all he has to do is aim it. ;)

[Nick Wolf]

I detect an unwarrented nasty grain of sarcasim in those statements ... As Richie Aprile would say = " Stop flexing".

Why use your expertise to swat a fly with a sledge hammer? I said I dont know thats why I ask...How else to learn?

Alright NoahK you obviously know much more about this, ok good for you, now can you explain to me why its a bad idea...How is animation sound done? and why cant that approach be done with live action? I heard that alot of TV shows are done that way...Am I wrong then correct me but dont try to belittle me because I have the guts to ask.

Its a good thing this is all virtual. People get bitch slapped for that kind of under the belt shit where I come from.

DogDay

P.S.
Don`t make me your target all I am doing is asking an honest question and not hiding the fact that I dont know something...DFWM unless I deserve it.

[Randall Nott]

I think Phillipe is being modest when he says the soundtrack is half your picture. I'd say it's closer to 75%. An audience will forgive a weak picture with great sound, but not the other way around. Especially on a feature, especially lower budget.

If you've got the budget for "a" sound person, hire one. Even if you're trying to build your own inventory of equipment, as it seems you're trying to. You can learn a hell of a lot from a good sound guy, but you have to make an effort because a lot of what they do is invisible to a novice.

Now that you've got a good sound guy, put the director on boom for the first day of shooting. Now on the second day of shooting, the director will have hired a boom guy. That's a minimal sound crew. Then you hire the film student to be a gofer for the sound crew. Everybody's happy.

[Randall Nott]

Don`t make me your target all I am doing is asking an honset question and not hiding the fact that I dont know something...DFWM unless I deserve it.

Actually, I think you're asking a lot of honest questions that deserve answers you're not getting. But maybe you could ask a couple at a time as sound is a huge category and it sounds a little like you're rambling as you figure out the best way to approach it.

As far as your ADR question, it is very difficult to do ahead of time because it is extremely difficult to lip-sync to dialog, and the focus it requires impedes an actor's performance. It works well for animation because it gives the animators an organic performance that they can match frame by frame with the animation. Hanna-Barbera used to do some of the dialog after the animation had been created and it would tend to make the cartoons look dubbed. For that matter, look at the original Speed Racer. It was dubbed, and always felt "off" because of it.

[Nick Wolf]

You are absolutely right and yes I know that many of my questions to a pro who has routines sound ridiculous but if the great David Mullen can have the patience and humility to answer the most idiotic questions then I think we all stand to learn from that example of passing on knowledge from the experienced to the inexperienced.

After all its just that one person heard it first, that empowers you, but if you use that to put down others simply because they havent been down that path yet then that really says alot about who you are and who you are not.

I am an actor and playwright myself and have stated 100 times that I am not at all tecnique oriented even the tec stuff I do comprehend I dont like being to much of a Spock about it, I want it to stay real, lets not make a big deal about it after all in the hierachy of things its the story isnt it that everything else serves.

Thank you Randall for clearifying that point for me...Now I understand.

I did however recall reading somewhere that Orson Wells had a film where he recorded all the sound first including dialogue and then matched up with playback on set...Have you heard of this?

DogDay

[Randall Nott]

Dogday,

I think we approach this forum with the same philosophy. I'm not an expert at anything, but I know a little about a lot and try to fill in holes where I can.

Funny you should mention Orson Welles, I've often thought of writing a one-man show about him. The source material is enormous, no pun intended.

The film you're referring to was his version of MacBeth. He wanted the actors to have authentic Scottish accents so he prerecorded the dialog and made the actors lip-sync. Lip syncing Shakespeare is easier than regular dialog because it has a meter to it. After he went to all that extra effort, the studio thought the accents were too strong and held up distribution for a year. After he gave in to their cuts, he had to go back and record narration to cover the gaps.

I think the other issue about recording dialog ahead of time is that it usually adds to production costs rather than cuts them. I know now and then they'll do it in television where they know the location will have difficult sound, like a roaring surf, or rainstorm, or even a remote location where they're having to talk over the sound of the generators for the lights. In those cases they'll try to record a rehearsal and feed it to the actors through headsets to sync to. It ends up being cheaper than trying to ADR later. They also tend to film those scenes in a two shot or wide shot so that it is less noticeable. It's a little easier to get away with on TV simply because the screen is smaller. Used to be, anyway.

[Nick Wolf]

Yes I think so too. I really think that the bottom line is content and its treatment. I am sorry people but even a monkey can learn to play piano with its toes. That is not an interpretation of a work however.

I believe that the medium surrenders itself in the hands of an artist. I know that will piss alot of people off here but thats how I see it and thats why I can be so cock sure and arrogant though I have very little experience in just this field...I am neither Razzled nor Dazzled by the Binary-Mumbo-Jumbo.

I say show me the footage and if its original and compelling I will be the first one on his knees to acknowledge it, otherwise its worthless chatter if it doesnt lead to something tangible IMHO...Can you tell a story? Do you have something to say-That hasent already been said or can you find a new and fresh way of saying it? Is it relevant?

Does it really matter if you cant spell but can write? ... Some people are spellers and some are writers. I see a distinct difference in terms.

Einstein couldnt tie his fucking shoes, shakspeare had dislexia,- ( Now thats a funny line! ) How many Thespians havent finished high school? Imagination and talent are supreme they are gifts and cannot be learned either you have "It" or you dont. On the other hand a table or graph can be learned.

I will learn and master this ... Crap! ... I hate it but its a necissary evil.

You people complain of boredom, here is some mud in your eye and a bit of drama for you!

Poor bastard I love Orson! Do you know if they ever released his version of Othello or what happened to it...It was incomplete but rumor was that some sort of cut would be available for the general public postumously.

I am taking some courses at FXguide. I tell you one class with Jeff Olms the colorist is really unbelievable. This guy is a supremely gifted artist in the ultra big leagues and he is so down to earth in his approach..."Just press the watchamacallit" because its not about the bushes its about the berrys...There is zero pretence with this guy yet he knows who he is and his capabilities.

Yes yes yes I need a pro sound guy...To get it and a F--King artist to design and mix it...Where oh where.

The thing is that its still all about sensibility and taste. You need these people who understand the tecnology but also someone who can hear what sounds like s--t and what doesnt and who is flexible to take direction or can contribute on their own to the collaboration creatively, thats a dream.

I think in regards to the development of the other arts in many ways film has stagnated or at least been the conformist of the family. Music, literature, etc etc etc...Very often music videos for better or worse take much more visual risks...The sound is locked in advanced and somehow turning that relationship upside down, instead of finding ways to follow lips and hide microphones the images are free to find another relation to the rythmic narrative...I guess Bollywood does alot of this sort of thing.

Also honestly I love all of those Italian Neorealism Films from the 40`s and 50`s where everything is dubbed and most often badly so...It just adds for me to that suspension of disbelief the contract between audience and creator...Naturalism after all is just another style...How many thousands of years did the Egyptians depict the human figure according to their own very unique aesthetic. Who is to say which style is best...Like choosing a golf club it depends on the situation and matter at hand to be expressed or problem to be solved.

Robert Altman also was a huge risk taker when it came to experimenting with sound.

DogDay

P.S.
Sorry to break it to you guys but in Art passion & vision override science.

[Randall Nott]

Poor bastard I love Orson! Do you know if they ever released his version of Othello or what happened to it...It was incomplete but rumor was that some sort of cut would be available for the general public postumously.

Maybe you're thining of Orson Welles' "The Bat-Man"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu5tJGfZsgc

Now that's a brilliant spoof.

"Othello" was completed in 1952 and won the grand prize at Cannes, but got litlle distribution in the US. The confusion about it is common because the masters were lost. A master negative was found in a New Jersey Warehouse in the late 80's (shades of Citizen Kane). The score and sound fx were re-created by his daughter Beatrice, who spent more on the recording than the original film had cost. The dialog was pulled from a 16mm print and it was restored in 1992.

What you're probably really partially remembering is "Touch Of Evil," which he wrote a guide for completion to Universal. It was restored in '98.


The thing is that its still all about sensibility and taste. You need these people who understand the tecnology but also someone who can hear what sounds like s--t and what doesnt and who is flexible to take direction or can contribute on their own to the collaboration creatively, thats a dream.

One of the best sound guys I've met is about 70% deaf. Never wears headphones because they get in his way. He knows his equipment inside and out and how what will work with what, and how to read the output. He'll match a microphone to someone from their posture, how they move the muscles in their face and neck, and how they breathe. He'll adjust a mic judging angles, surfaces, even the weather and time of day (ambient sound changes throughout the day - the good guys get some on every take). Says he doesn't have to hear the sound so much when he can see it. Also says there's a lot of pro sound guys just like him. And he gets a better rate than I can afford.


Also honestly I love all of those Italian Neorealism Films from the 40`s and 50`s where everything is dubbed and most often badly so...It just adds for me to that suspension of disbelief the contract between audience and creator...Naturalism after all is just another style

I have a friend who recently rented "Babel" and inadvertantly turned off the subtitles before it started. She asked me the next day if I'd seen it and what I thought about the director's choice not to include subtitles or dubbing. After the look on my face, she started to watch that evening with the subtitles on, but stopped once she realized she already got the full story.


Robert Altman also was a huge risk taker when it came to experimenting with sound.

Agreed. There's an auto insurance commercial (Progressive??) still running that made me laugh out loud the first time I saw it. My girlfriend looked at me lik'e I was crazy. I said, "It's Altman; it's an homage to Altman's "Three Women." You know, the Shelly Duval character that's always getting her dress stuck in the car door." Oblivious.

I've also been watching the remastered Hitchcock and Kubrick films recently on HDNet Movies. That's some serious schooling for film and sound. I find it interesting that Kubrick is one of few directors who will consistantly match a wideshot to a more distant sound, and often where other directors would go to a close up.


its not about the bushes its about the berrys

I like that. I used to hang out with a comic actor named E.E. Bell, who always used to say, "It ain't the goods, it's the caper."