RED CINE cut it out.

[tj williams]

So lets say the final product is a 720P frame we can cut this from anyplace in the frame in RED CINE. So we take a group of background people from the
4K raw frame, assuming they are in focus, and cut a 720 of just them as the new establishing shot.

Now this is not the zoom into from full frame to a 720size which we believe is not allowed by RED Cine because "It won't keyframe"

However problems will arise when the main actor on the other side of the 4K frame walks toward camera and we tilt up. Now our nice little cut of the group in back no longer works since we can't track them.

Just my two bits worth for the value of keyframing....

[Michael Schrengohst]

You could always render to tiffs or a 10bit file and even do what you are talking about in FCP or After Effects. AE 7 Pro has built in tracking features.
I would jump in and learn how to do that. At #1150 you have until about September to get after that!

[MikeCurtis]

Yep - process at 4K or whatever max size you want, then pan/scan in AE for your master and closeups. There could be some lens anomalies (if you crop for closeup from far edge of frame with some lenses, some odd distortion).

But if you crop from center and then use full frame for wide shot, could work.

but will look pan/scan, not zooming in - optically they are different. Like when you're watching a movie on TV and you can "feel it" when they pan in telecine vs. pan in camera - same thing.

So as a band-aid, yes, as a desirable thing, no.

-mike

[Jeff Brue]

(if you crop for closeup from far edge of frame with some lenses, some odd distortion).

which could be corrected for if you have say icooke meta data...

[tj williams]

MIke.... pan n scan from side to side to deliver 185 to 3/4 here as we move the cut inward should look more like a dolly since the lens won't change as in a zoom. We have done this from HD to SD and the results were quite nice, albiet most of the moves were rather subtle creeps.

Any idea about the length of time to process 4K to 4K tiff whatever then process zoom in in AE etc?

[MikeCurtis]

TJ - YMMV depending on your box, of course. Pan 'n scan has a distinctly different feel as compared to a dolly since perspective changes as well. Slow always helps. I just remember the conversation between the two astronauts towards the end of 2001 where they are set at extreme ends of a 2.40:1 shot - the pan 'n scan was awfully obvious.

If you want to know time, just take a big fat still and pan across it. It'll take SLIGHTLY longer on the real deal as it'll have to load in frames from disc & decode them as well. But a SLIGHT increase, not a big one. If HD is supposed to play back in real time (or nearly so), do the math from there.

Turning on Motion Blur and High Quality makes a HUGE difference in quality...and render times.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I just did this last night with some plates I shot using a DSLR on burst mode.

Processing was about 10sec per frame for 4k -> 4k and that was with stabilization and some mild color correction.

It drops to about 2sec per frame for 4k -> 4k with little to no transformations.

this was on a single core 2.8Ghz Pentium 4 w/ 2GB of RAM.

[tj williams]

So to process the 4K to 480... with frame grab time about 12sec per frame? or about 5min a running second at 24P? can that be right on a 2.8pent/2GBmachine?

So I process a 4K raw to 4K? in RED Cine in a time of?
Then based on "big fat still n pan across it" at about 5min per sec.

If rendering 4K raw to 4? (cineon?) is about the same as the cutting out of the 480 window then about 10 min a second. Doable for a short shot not to cool for a show!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

To process 4k -> 480p with a pan you're looking at about 25sec/sec render-time/playback.

To process 4k -> 4k with a pan you're looking at about 50sec/sec render-time/playback

To process 4k -> 4k with a pan, histogram, curves and a hue shift you're looking at about 80 sec/sec render-time/playback

To process 4k -> 480p with a pan, histogram, curves and a hue shift you're looking at about 35 sec/sec render-time/playback

all assuming 24fps

However this is all just me counting off the top of my head, so they could all be wildly off.

[tj williams]

Hi Mike....

If ya dolly straight toward a foreground person then the background will not change relative to them over a small dolly range. Now this is pretty limiting but on several projects we have taken a static camera and electronically" dollied in slightly. The improvement over a zoom or static was notable. Try it out...

I agree most pan n scan is ugly. I strongly believe that we, should be able to sue when distributors change the aspect ratio or PNS the film. There is no reason not to broadcast in letterbox. A painter in UK sued over this issue a few years ago. Guy cut the painting to fit his wall. Painter collected damages! Now given the current realities. Whats most jarring about pan n scan is that they do not ramp the ends like a camera move.

tha tone guy

Since I cannot make the move on the smaller frame whether 720 1080 or 480 in one move in RED Cine then it appears that my work flow looks like this:
step 1. Transfer RED Raw to 4K cineon tiff etc.
step 2. using other software cutout the smaller frame and key frame the movement.
The cost in time of RED Cine not having a key frame capability is that I have to do this in two steps. Your numbers if more or less correct don't show the first of these two steps.

1 is a 4K to 4K without any windowing down?? sec per frame????
2 is a 4K to smaller with process so your 35 sec per sec is good here

probably about 20 30 sec per frame range. will be my lost time.

A lot of comment here seems to center around big zooms. This is not my concern. Mostly I'm thinking of places where the foreground characters moved toward the camera and the operator tilted up to follow them.

The characters I want to cut out were not moving and therefore just had their head space increased. Imagine you were finishing a TV show. You only are presented with the master shot on a 17/35mm lens. All the characters are in focus. Now you cut to the long shot, cut to the window in to the secondary characters then cut to a window cu of the main character.
Presto you have a sequence out of a single shot. Why!!! because it's 4K baby!!!!!

[Michael Morlan]

TJ,

I agree I could save a sequence by cutting to a tighter frame of an existing long shot but I'm not sure I would want to given the choice to acquire the shot in-camera. Now I have this s35mm wonder. I want to take advantage of collapsing DoF and really isolate my subject from the background on the tighter shots. Framing in a wide shot would not give me that benefit, resulting in a DoF that looked like a smaller-chip camera.

M

[tj williams]

Michael. At last your flow chart is done! Good to seey out on other threads.
Are you going to NAB? maybe see you there in person to thank you for all your hard work.

There is a great emphasis put on DOF limiting here, I think because so many folks on this board have been shooting with small chip cameras where there is no choice. Certainly with a 35mm sensor there is the same choice as a 35mm film camera. Two things: 1. Look at citizen kane great old classic movie.
2. remember the times when the weather changed, the budget ran out, The actor wouldn't do another take, or as suggested above a mismatched action. These problems have been there without a solution in the past. I'm not saying don't shoot a Cu or medium shot of other action, just that sometimes you may not have them. In fact even in limited dof situations the secondary action may be playing on the focal plane. Then if finishing on 2K 1080 720 or even 480 you have wonderful post choices to save yourself!