What is Build 16?

[Jannard]

Since you all have waited so long for this infamous build, I think it is only fair to tell you some of it's advantages.

1. We will re-rate the camera's ISO.

2. There will be less noise.

3. There will be no "compression issues" in difficult scenes.

4. There will be a new "working space".

5. It will be much easier to set exposure.

6. You will have too many options... :-)

And a few others.

Please be warned. Build 16 does NOT make the RED ONE perfect. We live in a real world. But it does fully demonstrate our commitment to constant progress. It was only 8 months ago that we shipped our 1st cameras. The amount of improvement since then is incredible, even to us. And we are not about to stop. We are learning everyday. At some point, we will know more than the other guys ever dreamed about.... then, we will be dangerous.

Jim

[Jason Ing]

Thank you!

[Tonaci Tran]

excellent..

[Ivan G]

Did I hear this week....?

[Nick Wolf]

Take no prisoners!


DogDay

[Matthew Chuang]

can't wait, thank you very much

[Mark L. Pederson]

Love it all.

Can't wait for BUILD 17!!!

[Torrey Loomis]

Jim,

Can't wait to load em' up on 20 and 21!

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
Outfitter to the World's Foremost Apple Professionals
2600 East Bidwell Street, Suite 280
Folsom, CA 95630
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
tloomis@silverado.cc
http://www.Silverado.cc

Check out the Silverado 4k Market at http://www.silverado.cc

[Jannard]

Love it all.

Can't wait for BUILD 17!!!

We are all going to take a 2 day vacation before we even THINK ABOUT Build 17...

I have to acknowledge Graeme, Deanan, Jarred, and Matt B. on Build 16. Maybe I'll wait until it is done...

Jim

[Paul Hazlett]

ooooh I hate the suspense!! but i love this camera!!! and this company!!

[Joel Kaye]

1. We will re-rate the camera's ISO.

Hmmm.. this is kinda interesting. Which way is it going to go? The 'less noise' thing makes me wonder if it'll be rated faster indoors.

[Mark L. Pederson]

We are all going to take a 2 day vacation before we even THINK ABOUT Build 17...

Jim

LOL!

You guys all deserve a nice long "post build 16" siesta.

I just wonder what build you'll be up to when our Epics ship!

[PMascetta]

Camera is already great Jim, you take that vacation... right after build 16 that is ;)

[Bing Bailey]

I can't wait. my cam will be a superstar when i get it

[Zakaree Sandberg]

stoked

[Warren Kommers]

F&#$ Yeah!

[Darren Orange]

we will be dangerous......

You are now and have been for a while.....after all anything that gets called vaporware and then works, at the very least is dangerous....more like moving the direction of world domination, at least I know so.

[sbcooler]

Thanks Jim. I am an avid spectator for the time being, but will be a RED customer next year at some point.

You commitment to answering and posting udpates here is very commendable and inspires me that much more to up my standards and go RED.

I tell everyone about you guys from the prosumer world that is afraid on some level. In time and with cont'd great service like you seem to be doing, the sky is the limit.

I'm so happy you pushed the video game to a higher level/quality. It should help in all cameras in the future. Your impact could be massive!

When are u going public so I can own a piece of RED?!

Thx for all that you and your team do-

[jbeale]

Which way is it going to go? The 'less noise' thing makes me wonder if it'll be rated faster indoors.

On a DSLR, you get lower noise by using a lower ISO setting... I'd assumed there wasn't room to change that on Red due to sensor saturation limiting max effective exposure. But if they can usefully lower their analog gain, they would have lower noise and also lower ISO rating. This is, of course entirely speculation.

[NormLi]

Great news...looking forward to it :)

[SF Geek]

On a DSLR, you get lower noise by using a lower ISO setting... I'd assumed there wasn't room to change that on Red due to sensor saturation limiting max effective exposure. But if they can usefully lower their analog gain, they would have lower noise and also lower ISO rating. This is, of course entirely speculation.

I hope you're wrong. The camera is already slow as it is. Less noise should mean a faster ISO rating. I really hope they don't lessen the analogue gain.

[Mike Prevette]

You might be turning me into a fanboy.

[Mark Warren]

Looking forward to it.

I can't believe this thread doesn't yet have one, frantic, banal question... or demand.

That's cause for celebration in itself, but give it time I guess.

(Resident cynic :shiftyph34r: )

[Evin Grant]

I would guess that the camera ISO would go up. Probably to 500 or 640 ASA.
It needs to do this to allow the camera to roll highlights off more smoothly.
It's interesting that Jim did not say there would be more dynamic range. But then we know the sensor has 66db or 11+1/3 stops, we just have come to the conclusion that for most uses 9 is what's useable. But if the noise is one stop better in the shadows that means we can rate the camera one stop faster and achieve one more stop of DR. Or even better if a proper Log curve could be applied before compression you could possibly even get the entire 11+1/3 stops Graeme has measured previously.
Here's to being optimistic :innocent:

[Pawel Achtel]

I would guess that the camera ISO would go up. Probably to 500 or 640 ASA.
It needs to do this to allow the camera to roll highlights off more smoothly.
It's interesting that Jim did not say there would be more dynamic range. But then we know the sensor has 66db or 11+1/3 stops, we just have come to the conclusion that for most uses 9 is what's useable. But if the noise is one stop better in the shadows that means we can rate the camera one stop faster and achieve one more stop of DR. Or even better if a proper Log curve could be applied before compression you could possibly even get the entire 11+1/3 stops Graeme has measured previously.
Here's to being optimistic :innocent:

This would be my guess too, Evin. Jim's hint that ASA raiting has increased suggests that there is some improvement in noise filtering applied, which would result in improved DR.

How exciting!

[Sanjin Jukic]

I'm sure we get a bit more DR in built 16.

How much?

We'll see very soon.

Supposed to be that now Cannes show is heating up all the thing.

[James T Mather]

I hope you're wrong. The camera is already slow as it is.

320 asa is slow? What planet are you living on?

[Nils Ruinet]

Sounds great.

So what about RedCine ? Will there be a new version with build 16 ?
And QT support for 16/9 ?

[Tim Lüdin]

Thanks RED team. Build 16 sounds great to me.
Cant wait.

Tim

[Vico Martin]

more ISO with less noise will be a great notice!! If you can regulate the voltage in your sensor with this precission this is really a unique camera.
but, ¿we can expect more FPS in 4K?
¿is truth we can program a speed ramp? in this case this build allow to correct exposure at same time it corrects fps?
I really wish this interactive forum with real builders never end. Congratulations to everybody in red for hear the workers before improve your builds.

excuse my english again an again!!

[Adam Clark]

sounds great ;)

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I would guess that the camera ISO would go up. Probably to 500 or 640 ASA.
It needs to do this to allow the camera to roll highlights off more smoothly.
It's interesting that Jim did not say there would be more dynamic range. But then we know the sensor has 66db or 11+1/3 stops, we just have come to the conclusion that for most uses 9 is what's useable. But if the noise is one stop better in the shadows that means we can rate the camera one stop faster and achieve one more stop of DR. Or even better if a proper Log curve could be applied before compression you could possibly even get the entire 11+1/3 stops Graeme has measured previously.
Here's to being optimistic :innocent:

As I've said elsewhere, we shot our feature with Build 15, with the current DR - but we've found that with careful, thorough, clever grading, we can get 11 stops. Noise in the darkest scenes does need some clever processing. But we're happy - and that's for film-out. Whatever Build 16 does to improve on 15 can only be good news.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Oh dear.

Build 16 looks awesome.

[Andrew M.]

If only ver 16 will support exposure bracketing, via different shutter speeds.
Different for frames 1,3,5,7 etc and different for 2,4,6,8. We could get HDR moving images.

After Effect already supports HDR manipulation for movies. Yes, I have heard argument that alternating shutter speed for every second frame will introduce strobeing effect. NOT TRUE!

After shooting at say 60fps and combining two frames with different shutter speeds in to one in AE using motion transforms, we will get one single frame for 30 fps output with 3-4 stops extra DR
We will not watch 60 fps alternating but 30 frame (two adjacent frame merged)

It is so easy to implement, just have two (or even 3) entries in the shutter speed menu for shutter speed instead of one speed for shutter at this moment.
Different for even frames and different for odd frames.
In case of 3 point bracketing like in all DLSR (+2 stops, zero, -2stops) we should have ability to enter different value for the shutter speed for firs second and third starting frame.

RED will be the first moving pictures camera in the world supporting HDR filming with this feature.

[Pawel Achtel]

If only ver 16 will support exposure bracketing, via different shutter speeds.
Different for frames 1,3,5,7 etc and different for 2,4,6,8. We could get HDR moving images.

After Effect already supports HDR manipulation for movies. Yes, I have heard argument that alternating shutter speed for every second frame will introduce strobeing effect. NOT TRUE!

After shooting at say 60fps and combining two frames with different shutter speeds in to one in AE using motion transforms, we will get one single frame for 30 fps output with 3-4 stops extra DR
We will not watch 60 fps alternating but 30 frame (two adjacent frame merged)

It is so easy to implement, just have two (or even 3) entries in the shutter speed menu for shutter speed instead of one speed for shutter at this moment.
Different for even frames and different for odd frames.
In case of 3 point bracketing like in all DLSR (+2 stops, zero, -2stops) we should have ability to enter different value for the shutter speed for firs second and third starting frame.

RED will be the first moving pictures camera in the world supporting HDR filming with this feature.

I shot some motion picture HDR. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. One instance when it doesn't work is with some fast movement because motion blur for highlight is smaller than motion blur for shadows and they are also offset :bleh:
You can apply some timing strategies by taking tripplets, like -4AV, 0AV, -4AV and apply a merge of field 1 and 3 before expanding DR with field 2. But, it will never be as clean as proper single frame scan.

A better solution is to use two cameras and a half-mirror. One camera with ND, both operating at the same shutter speed.

[Andrew M.]

Did you try AE motion transforms?
It combines two pictures pixel by pixel in to the one picture.
It is also used for adjusting motion blur.
Works great to match the blur on different shutter speeds.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I just hope once Build 16 is out they will have more time in building cameras. :wink: Its interesting reading all these posts, although it would be nicer to have a camera to experiment what you are saying. I guess once I get it, it'll have build 17-18? with lots of improvements though.

Still patiently waiting...:calm:

[Brian Harbauer]

I could be wrong but while red is only handful of people compared to other companies, I doubt it's a one man band. Meaning the programmers are not the people who put together the camera, they just know how to program. There's nothing they can do to speed things up or slow things down. But the people who have their fingers in multiple pies such as Jarred and Jim etc, I'm sure are putting full effort into getting those cameras out. I highly doubt everyone who comes into work sits down at their desk and ponders: "So do I program or put together a camera today? ..."

I'm glad to hear that the development of this section of the camera has not been delayed due to the physical shipping of cameras. If that were the case then it really would be a rinky dink operation and I would be a bit scared. A person can be well rounded and know a lot, but not be the expert in all those areas. If the same guy was taking my order, who put the camera together, who programmed the firmware who designed the lenses who balanced the budget were the only people there - how could everything be of the up most quality? I'm by no means ranting, it's just interesting how we think that coming out with a new firmware means time otherwise could have been spent on getting those cameras out.

Looking forward to seeing what this new build has to offer. :o)

[Steve Sherrick]

Sounds great.

So what about RedCine ? Will there be a new version with build 16 ?
And QT support for 16/9 ?

I believe they are making changes to the apps to accommodate changes in this firmware build.

I am hopeful that 16:9 quicktime/FCP support will be a reality once this new build rolls out. I would assume in addition to new versions of REDCINE and RED Alert, we will see new versions of Redcode plugin and log and transfer utility.

[Jason Diamond]

Def sleep for the ages. but then get 17 moving! hahaha

[Hrvoje Simic]

This sounds great. Thanks Jim. Thanks guys.

Vacation on a tropical island would be in order now. :-)
I doubt the crew would mind.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I highly doubt everyone who comes into work sits down at their desk and ponders: "So do I program or put together a camera today? ..."
If the same guy was taking my order, who put the camera together, who programmed the firmware who designed the lenses who balanced the budget were the only people there - how could everything be of the up most quality? I'm by no means ranting, it's just interesting how we think that coming out with a new firmware means time otherwise could have been spent on getting those cameras out.

Looking forward to seeing what this new build has to offer. :o)

I think its pretty obvious its not a one man band, we have seen RED work from all sides nicely. After NAB I was very impressed on how advanced they are and made me feel good to be a customer. :)

But I do think its a collaborative work between a lot of talented people. In these terms, I think development in programming has a lot to do with the camera! If there is no camera what are the programmers gonna work on? If you check out the schedule, you'll see that orders are near (or past) the 5.000. So probably only 35% of red customers are gonna be able to try the build developments TODAY.

Dont get me wrong, I am really excited about this! I love the fact that the camera I bought a few months ago has become even better even before I get it! But as a collaborative work I think this is, it would be nice to hear this kind of developments in the camera building process. Of course I know it's hard, I know it depends on third party part providers, I know red is new, I totally understand, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. My point is that its frustrating to see new developments in the camera and not being able to try it, that's all.

Still patiently waiting...;)

[NormLi]

Jim,

Any chance for higher framerates in 4K mode? Thanks.

[Ed Blythe]

Would be curious for an update on the SDK if you have the time, information and inclination.

Well done on the new build.

Cheers,


Ed

[C.H.Haskell]

Look forward to 16! Been working with 15 all week and its as solid as they come but 16 sounds like it will break grounds. I would like my build 1781 to ship with 16 ;) ...Good luck RED with the new firmware release and when you do so...take a break!

Best

[Gunleik Groven]

OK, what is this build 16 anyway guys?

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Want it now....

[Jannard]

Jim,

Any chance for higher framerates in 4K mode? Thanks.

I wouldn't count on an increase in the near future...

Jim

[NormLi]

Oh that's too bad. So it's going to be capped at 30fps?

Thanks Jim,

Norm


I wouldn't count on an increase in the near future...

Jim

[Raphael Varandas]

Thank you Jim ...Dangerous Mind... Holly F*..%#
So...thinking in Vacation mail me I will produce some nice entertaining here in Brazil for you and RED TEAM.
Besides this Congratulation to ALL of you.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

4. There will be a new "working space".
Jim

Hey Jim, can you elaborate on that?

[George A.]

I wouldn't count on an increase in the near future...

Jim

How about in the not-so-distant future? Seriously... any chance of getting 60fps at 4K anytime in the future?

[Martin Weiss]

If only ver 16 will support exposure bracketing, via different shutter speeds.
...
After shooting at say 60fps...
While it might be easy to implement on the Software side, I'm sure that changing the aperature 60 times per second would quickly wear out any lens.

[Brook Willard]

Very interesting. My excitement is only exceeded by my technical curiosity. I'd guess that Evin's assertion is the most accurate, but I'd love to hear some details - even vague ones - on what's going on under the hood here. A pre-compression curve and a compression-aware noise reduction [on the post side] seems the most obvious.

It'll be interesting to re-learn the camera. Looking forward to it.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

While it might be easy to implement on the Software side, I'm sure that changing the aperature 60 times per second would quickly wear out any lens.

Martin, that would be the electronic shutter changing, not the iris ;)
And as long as RED has the "inferior" electronic shutter there are no mechanical parts involved.

Ikke sant?

[vincelucero]

Amazing to see what the RED team has accomplished in a mere 8 months. Absolutely unheard of in this industry to pass that knowledge and upgrade on to the customer that fast...for free. 2009 is going to be freakin' insane!

[Mike Prevette]

I'm feeling the same as Brooke. Torn between nerdery and greed to start using it.

[HD Hildebrand]

Sounds great - - - speaking of sound, anything new happening on the phantom power front with Build 16?

[Andrew M.]

Sounds great - - - speaking of sound, anything new happening on the phantom power front with Build 16?

Subtract Ch2 from Ch1 on the mixer and feed mike in to the Ch1

This way you cancel the noise in the Ch1 with phantom power on.

Try it it works.

[Martin Weiss]

Martin, that would be the electronic shutter changing, not the iris ;)
Ikke sant?

Joda ;)

That of course would lead to some interesting effects on shots with a fair amount of motion... Might be the new hot thing for pop promos?

Another thought: since the recording of the image is completely electronic, couldn't it be posibble to record multiple exposures at the same time?

Meaning not have alternating exposures, but parallel. I.e. stream 1 records 1/4 of the exposure time, stream 2 at full exposure.

Hey, one could even go wild and have stream 3 record only every other frame, but with double exposure time.

Am I making any sense?

(this might be more something for build 19, or Epic.)

[David M]

Joda ;)

That of course would lead to some interesting effects on shots with a fair amount of motion... Might be the new hot thing for pop promos?

Another thought: since the recording of the image is completely electronic, couldn't it be posibble to record multiple exposures at the same time?

Meaning not have alternating exposures, but parallel. I.e. stream 1 records 1/4 of the exposure time, stream 2 at full exposure.

Hey, one could even go wild and have stream 3 record only every other frame, but with double exposure time.

Am I making any sense?


Not really. Unless you can figure out some way to stop the subject moving between reads, this technique would achieve nothing useful.

The Arriscan film scanner does something like that, but it's taking "photographs" of a stationary frame of film, a completely different situation.

[HD Hildebrand]

Subtract Ch2 from Ch1 on the mixer and feed mike in to the Ch1

This way you cancel the noise in the Ch1 with phantom power on.

Try it it works.

Hey Andrew, how ya' doin'?

Can you explain this a bit further. I don't understand. Are you talking an external mixer?

My goal is to have at least 2 phantom power mics but can live with 1 phantom power and one non-phantom powered. Could you do this with this scenario? Probably couldn't monitor both at the same time though, right?

Cheers,
Dale

[Bang WOW Bang]

OK. Thanks Jim.

Exterme Build ?

higher datarate ? not just Redcode 28 or 36 but 72 or even 100MB/s in 4K.

I disappointed for the uncompressed Raw port development.

Uncompressed RAW materials can last longer than any future codec holds , and always only leaders have their options.

S.Two and Codex and others coming to record uncompressed Raw files with log table.

Stewart
CVO

[SF Geek]

Subtract Ch2 from Ch1 on the mixer and feed mike in to the Ch1

This way you cancel the noise in the Ch1 with phantom power on.

Try it it works.

I'm not sure what you're saying here Andrew. If you're using a mixer, then you don't need phantom power.

[Andrew M.]

Here is bit more explanations:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9881
Read my remarks at the end

and this one
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13697
Basically any software that allows you to process two or 4 channels and mix it together with the option to invert one of the channels will do the trick.

Since the hiss is the same in the phase and almost the same in amplitude on all the channels ( I tested ch 1/2 and ch 3/4) I presume that you can use ch 1 and 2 for recording and ch 4 as a "reference" hiss channel. Combining inverted (-) ch 4 with any channel that contains the hiss will cancel this hiss.
In my experiment I manage to cancel it completely, not detectable difference from the no phantom power recording versus phantom power recording of the very quiet room silence.

[Andrew M.]

Not really. Unless you can figure out some way to stop the subject moving between reads, this technique would achieve nothing useful.

The Arriscan film scanner does something like that, but it's taking "photographs" of a stationary frame of film, a completely different situation.

Shutter speed bracketing is one of the form of exposure bracketing.
I have heard arguments that on moving objects it is difficult to get good results.

I did experiment with laps shots where only shutter was changing while filming runners or just simple panning. So far I have good results.
Imagine that instead 180 at 24fps shutter you use 90 at 48fps and you combine two such 48 fps exposed frames in to one 24fps frame. What you get is one frame with the blur equal to the blur of the 24fps frame.

Now take two 48fps frames and use one with shutter set to 20 and the other frame set to 320.
Well 4 stops difference.
We could even do 3 steps bracketing like on all higher end DSLRs
Take 72fps and shoot 3 frame groups using shutter set to 20 - 80 - 320 for each group of 3 frames.
Then combine 3 frames at 72fps in to one at 24fps, well blur will be exactly the same as on frame at 24fps.

And it is easy to add to RED menu, two more lines there for the shutter speed setup.
The first frame line (existing) then right under the second line for second frame shutter speed and the line for the third frame.

It is not much to ask for, to make the RED camera the first one in the world supporting HDR moving pictures.

Maybe Jim is already playing with this feature? "you will be surprised" :-)

[Andrew M.]

Hey Andrew, how ya' doin'?

Can you explain this a bit further. I don't understand. Are you talking an external mixer?

My goal is to have at least 2 phantom power mics but can live with 1 phantom power and one non-phantom powered. Could you do this with this scenario? Probably couldn't monitor both at the same time though, right?

Cheers,
Dale

You can use this tool to combine two channels in to one with one inverted.
See below picture.
See the (-) sign.
This is in Soundbooth and Premiere.
Audition has it build in on all mixers there.
Some mixers (soft or hardware) do have this button.

Yes, you can use ch 1 and ch2 for recording with phantom power on and the third channel (3-rd or 4-th) just 600 ohm terminated, no mike there.
Enable all 3 channels on the RED camera, so all 3 will be recorded.
Then extract all 3 audio track and blend the 3-rd one with the first and with the second with (-) button pressed on the 3-rd channel.