blu-ray

[Zakaree Sandberg]

any word.. is this a solution for storage? i know its been discussed but cant really find anything else on it.. just want to know any updates about price per disk.. writer.. reader.. so on...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Two problems with it... Expensive and slow. No one really knows just how durable the discs are or what sort of shelf life to expect. The discs are VERY vulnerable to scratches and the slightest scratch can ruin a disc. This just goes along with the data density. Just as DVDs were more sensitive to scratches than CDs, even more so with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Currently, DL writers are still in the $700+ range. BluRay dual-layer media is available as single sided (50GB per side) and double sided (100GB per side). Cost for discs is about the same per GB as it is for DVD-RW media. So there's no price advantage anywhere. With only storing 100GB per disc side and with current write times and transfer rates, they can't be considered a fast solution by any means. Much slower than most any current tape media. Top speed for Blu-Ray is just under 7MB/s... Most LTO-3 tape units record at 22~24MB/s.

I think the currently high cost of BluRay media is what's keeping the format from spreading through the computer industry. If they could get prices down to $2 or less for a 50GB disc, people would jump all over it. But at the going rate of $35 for 50GB it makes no sense as a backup solution.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

never knew it was that expensive! OVER IT!

What is everyones solution for data storage for Red footage? Tape? Hard drives?
I am afraid to have any media storage on hard disk alone.. i am more comfortable with a data tape i think.. not sure yet

[Sean]

Blu-ray is brand new. So not surprisingly it's expensive. The first rewritable DVDs were approx. $20 each when they first appeared on the market . A friend of mine would burn with these early DVDs and each failed attempt (there were many) would set him back another $20. With the accelerating advances in storage technology, I wouldn't be surprised to see $2 Blu-ray disks within two years. I admit that doesn't solve our problem right now though. Lots of external hard drives are probably the cheapest short term solution, at less than a dollar a gig.

[Tom Lowe]

I'll be buying an HD-DVD burner when they come out for PCs. I'm really surprised it has taken this long, considering that Microsoft is one of HD-DVD's main backers.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Based on all the discussions over backups here on the forums, it seems HDDs and tape are the way to go. Probably a combination of the two, unless your backup requirements are very light. I'm planning to use HDD and tape, but hope that something better comes along late this year or early next. The next big thing for mass storage looks like holographic media, but it's still another year or two from going mainstream and right now capacities are still smaller than tape.

[Anders Holck]

HD DVD-R is unfortunately single layer only, so it's locked at 15GB per disk.

Dual sided Blu-ray is really not possible at the time due to the extremely tight tolerances needed to make a disk for the 0.85 aperture. The same goes for 4 layer disks.

[Tom Lowe]

HD DVD-R is unfortunately single layer only, so it's locked at 15GB per disk.


Forever?

[Anders Holck]

no, DL should come out soon

[Robert Berger]

blu-ray is 25 gb single and 50 gb double.
Sony blu-ray for there camera's are now placing 35mb/s voor there SD camera's I expect that ther new 2/3 inch XDcam go's for 50 mb/sec.

So it could be possible to make a blu-ray click-on for the Red if you only use the 27 mb data from the red to the blu-ray burner. The disk are very wel protectet against dust and scratches.

robert

[Robert Berger]

If you want to make a back-up, you could use a data tape writer, 20 dollars for 300 gb each tape. Player/recorders are about 2000 dollar each. They say a tape is good for 30 years. If you want a periode of 300 years you have to use a arri laser and burn your data on a, yes... , a Microfilm........They are working on it.
Maybe ready when you have shot your first feature Film. Keep it alive for 300 years!!!

robert

[Anders Holck]

Sony blu-ray for there camera's are now placing 35mb/s voor there SD camera's I expect that ther new 2/3 inch XDcam go's for 50 mb/sec.

So it could be possible to make a blu-ray click-on for the Red if you only use the 27 mb data from the red to the blu-ray burner.


The XDcam Blu-ray is 50 Mbps.
REDcode RAW 4k/24 is 27MB/s which is 216Mbps

[Robert Berger]

Those Mb/MB/s are killing me, it was 35 mb voor HDxdcam 1/2 inch and XDcam you could go for 50mb and less......wich is funny more is less.......or

[Andrew M.]

I wonder how much this thing cost?
300GB crtridges…hmmm……….
http://www.issidata.com/defaultspg.asp?storeID=WINP

[Jeff Kilgroe]

HD DVD-R is unfortunately single layer only, so it's locked at 15GB per disk.

Dual sided Blu-ray is really not possible at the time due to the extremely tight tolerances needed to make a disk for the 0.85 aperture. The same goes for 4 layer disks.

Dual Layer HD-DVD recordables and re-writables have been demonstrated publicly at CES. Still no firm dates on them hitting the market though.

Double-sided (2 layers each side) BluRay discs were shown at CES by TDK and should be hitting the market now, if not already. Blu-Ray can scale to 12 layers for manufactured discs, however Sony has not demonstrated any disc with more than 4 layers on a single side and no info yet about when quad layer discs will become available. Neither Sony or any of the BluRay partners have yet produced or shown anything in regards to a writable quad-layer system.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I wonder how much this thing cost?
300GB crtridges…hmmm……….
http://www.issidata.com/defaultspg.asp?storeID=WINP

These guys / InPhase / will be at NAB (I won't be :sad: ). Although, they're like 30 minutes away from me, I may just take a drive and go see them. I'll call them to see if they will do a demo for me or if they have a show room set up. I'm curious to see this thing in action. A bit more information is at www.inphase-tech.com

[Ivan G]

It seems like it's taking forever BD technology to become available. Having to shoot HD then archrive, sux. I think Apple should of had an option for BD users :glare:

Hologram anyone....?

http://www.physorg.com/news967.html

[Jeremy Hughes]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/19/tdks-durabis-2-coating-protects-200gb-blu-ray-discs/

Hows that for scratch resistance? Seems expensive. But if there was high demand they could mass produce it and bring the price down.

Are these HVC's practical? http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/10/optware-holographic-versatile-card-30gb-on-a-credit-card/

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hows that for scratch resistance? Seems expensive. But if there was high demand they could mass produce it and bring the price down.

Hmmm... Nothing real special there. As expressed in many of the comments there, there's no reason disc makers haven't been putting such coatings on discs since the beginning. Why not coat the read/write surface of the disc with micro-bumped or atomized zirconia or aluminum oxide? Well, gee... Because then the discs would theoretically be un-scratchable and near indestructable. Who would want that?

What I find mind boggling is why is this sort of thing hasn't been used since the beginning of the CD era. And almost as disconcerting is why is engadget (and/or TDK) claiming this is a six-layer, single-sided disc? According to TDK, Sony and Pioneer at CES, they only have 4-layer, single-sided working in the lab. Sounds like a bunch of marketing poop to me.


Are these HVC's practical? http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/10/optware-holographic-versatile-card-30gb-on-a-credit-card/

Looks more promising for data delivery or a distribution format. I'm more interested in the 1TB disc, but Optware hasn't made their holographic products commercially available yet. We keep seeing demos and press releases, but where do you buy them? InPhase is a little low on the capacity side compared to what other holographic storage makers are claiming, but at least InPhase has a real product that we can actually buy and not just a bunch of vapor and empty promises.

[Jeremy Hughes]

What's this then? Is everybody in on it? http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39282192,00.htm

Isn't Maxell working on holographic memory too?

[Andrew M.]

What's this then? Is everybody in on it? http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39282192,00.htm

Isn't Maxell working on holographic memory too?

I have heard that Maxell has 300GB as well.
Next year we will have not expensive 300GB HVD I think.
How long data will last on it though?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What's this then? Is everybody in on it? http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39282192,00.htm

Why not just go right to the source and reference the official press release (http://tdk.com/procommon/press/article.asp?site=corp&recid=140)?

Yes, they have prototype media expanding past the abilities of the current dual layer (available) and quad layer (prototype only) drives out there now. But considering Sony, Pioneer and LG all can't get quad layer writers to actually work 100%, it's somewhat of a moot point at this time. And just because they have a prototype 6 layer disc, it really means nothing, we don't even know if it actually works or will be compatible with the new blue diodes that are in development now to make the 4 to 8 layer drives possible.

I have no doubt we'll see 6 layer writers by the end of 2008 or sometime early in 2009. But right now, we're still waiting for someone to deliver a quad-layer drive that works. I was at a BluRay presentation last July with a bunch of Sony big wigs and some of their tech guys. They had a few discs there that people could pass around and one of them was reported to be an 8 layer prototype. Who knows if what they claim was true. It looked just like the dual-layer disc they loaded in the prototype BDP-S1 player other than it had a little darker color to it and a little less transparency.


Isn't Maxell working on holographic memory too?

Yes. Maxell is also the primary media manufacturer for InPhase and one of the backers of the project. They're also developing their own holographic storage unit and media. I think there's a swap of IP and patent licensing between Maxell and InPhase -- only makes sense.

[Kyle Spicer]

Two problems with it... Expensive and slow. No one really knows just how durable the discs are or what sort of shelf life to expect. The discs are VERY vulnerable to scratches and the slightest scratch can ruin a disc. This just goes along with the data density. Just as DVDs were more sensitive to scratches than CDs, even more so with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.


There are some misconception's on Blu-Ray. It is actually very durable or from what I have seen. It has something similar to TDK Scratch proof disks. I think there was a report on Tom's Hardware that said you could drop the disk on the ground and rub your feet across it and still get all the data off of it. The disk also have a protection for fingerprints, which is necessary considering how much more data is being put on the disk and how small an area the laser has to read from.
The cost is going to be something that takes time to get over. Just like when DVD's first came out. HD-DVD uses current manufacturing facilities that DVD's use. Basically all HD-DVD is, is a supped up DVD Disk. It uses the same laser technology, where as Blu-Ray has to have a complete new manufacturing line installed. This cost cash and the companies are defiantly not going to eat it themselves (there not RED :biggrin: . ) In the labs they have disk that will go 8-12 layers on Blu-Ray. This is great but probably still far away from reaching consumers.

In short I cant see Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD being a FAST backup solution by any means, but it will be a backup solution (probably one of the best when prices drop a little)...