How to Make Friends and Influence People...

[Stephen Webb]

This from Panavision UK yesterday:

"It is a sackable offense for any Panavision staff to send out lenses to a company using the red camera".

I knew there was a reason I always rent from Arri :watsup:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Is this real?

[Ed Blythe]

Intriguing. Source? Preferably in print?

[Harva Raj]

This from Panavision UK yesterday:

"It is a sackable offense for any Panavision staff to send out lenses to a company using the red camera".


if im not wrong, they announced this beginning of this year rite?

[Brian Langeman]

Where's the source for this quote? No one should be putting up quotes without the source or proof, especially ones like this.

[Stephen Webb]

It's been known for a while that Panavision have had a policy of not helping out productions shooting Red, and a few people who have tried to rent kit have been knocked back (and a few have been sneakily successful).

This is the first time I've had it confirmed in print though. A technician at one of the UK Panavision sites passed the above quote along following a request to rent a set of lenses for an upcoming shoot that I am providing the camera for.

Having checked around I'm led to believe that it is a direct extract from an internal comms that was sent to all Panavision staff. And no, I'm not about to give you all the name of the individual who forwarded the info (who I'm sure would like to keep his job). That said, I don't think Panavision are being particularly secretive about it so perhaps they don't mind.

[Simon Blackledge]

Hmm.. I talked to a guy at Panavision and they have reds on order.

They have more lenses than cameras.. so makes sense with all the reds out there to rent out lenses to Red folks.. if they fit.. why not?

So thats 2 versions now. and mine was in person...

s

[David M]

Hmm.. I talked to a guy at Panavision and they have reds on order.

They have more lenses than cameras.. so makes sense with all the reds out there to rent out lenses to Red folks.. if they fit.. why not?

So thats 2 versions now. and mine was in person...

s

Chrissake, how many times do we need to say this: In any normal camera rental package, the camera's cost component usually only makes up a small part of the hire fee. Most of the expense is in all the other bits and pieces (including lenses and lens controllers), heads and legs, cables, batteries etc etc.

So if the market suddenly became flooded with REDs, Panavision could still make plenty of money hiring lenses and accessories. Also remember that for a large percentage of their customers, the rental catalog is only a starting point, bigger and regular customers get pretty good discounts most of the time. Which I'd bet dimes to donuts wouldn't be on offer for rentals with a substantial non-PV component:tongue:

Nobody I know at Panavision has ever heard anything about this. If there's any truth to this, it's probably a localized management decision.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It's been known for a while that Panavision have had a policy of not helping out productions shooting Red, and a few people who have tried to rent kit have been knocked back (and a few have been sneakily successful).

100% Nonsense.

I can rent anything I want from Panavision New York, assuming it is in available.

[Stephen Webb]

100% Nonsense.

I'm sorry Mark but I find your implication here somewhat offensive.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have just spoken to the hire desk at Panavision in Greenford and have been told categorically that Panavision will not rent to any production shooting on the Red One.

I was told it is Panavision policy and has been communicated to all their offices. If you read the original excerpt I posted it clearly comes from the States so is not a UK-only thing - if New York are happy to rent to you, I can only assume it's because of the relationship you have with them.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm sorry Mark but I find your implication here somewhat offensive.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have just spoken to the hire desk at Panavision in Greenford and have been told categorically that Panavision will not rent to any production shooting on the Red One.

I was told it is Panavision policy and has been communicated to all their offices. If you read the original excerpt I posted it clearly comes from the States so is not a UK-only thing - if New York are happy to rent to you, I can only assume it's because of the relationship you have with them.

Well ... Stephen, I did not mean to offend you. BUT I am ... SHOCKED.

I will look into this further because I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS A COMPANY POLICY COMMUNICATED TO ALL THEIR OFFICES.

I can not believe that they would be that stupid.

[Emanuel A.]

'Non sense' doesn't necessarily mean to kill the messenger -- i.e. do not credit the medium of non sense content.

I said "non sense"? Well, I wouldn't say so much... :)

[Stephen Webb]

Hiya Mark,

Sorry, may have over-reacted to the 100% nonsense thing.

ANYWAY...

To clarify, the nice lady at Panavision I just chatted to confirmed "Yes that's right, we're not allowed to rent to anyone using Red" when pushed she said "We've all been told that". I checked with the Greenford office because they're Head Office for Europe, but my initial information came from Panavision in Glasgow.

The reason I believe that the original communication came from the States is cause us English people can spell :tongue: (i.e. "Offence" rather than the American version "Offense").

And yes, I'm shocked too!

[Emanuel A.]

Not so shocked though... :)

[Joel Kaye]

And yes, I'm shocked too!

I think someone must have stole someone else's girl in college and that's the real reason behind this. 'Cause other than that it's pretty shortsighted. Wait a second, these guys didn't used to run a Vinyl Record manufacturing plant, did they?

[C.H.Haskell]

This is crazy, I am going to call today...not because I dont believe you guys, I think REDusers should be heard on this subject, correct me if I am wrong but is there not legal issues involved here?

[Stephen Webb]

I'd wait a bit and see what Mark comes back with, rather than everyone flooding Panavision with ill-advised calls of protest!

I find it really surprising that Panavision are making this stand as a large majority of their camera catalogue is made up of 3rd party cameras (Arri's mostly, also Aaton, Eyemo, MovieCam) so why they'd have a particular issue with Red is a mystery.

[Emanuel A.]

(...) so why they'd have a particular issue with Red is a mystery.A good sign for all of us IMHO. But perhaps that's just me... :)

[Joseph Hutson]

Might it be a union thing? I have no idea???

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'd wait a bit and see what Mark comes back
my guy inside Panavision is out until Tuesday - to be continued -

[Mitch Gross]

Just a quick note to say that Abel is happy to rent glass and anything else in our inventory to anybody.

But it is the prerogative of any rental house to choose who they will or will not rent to. They are not forced to do business with you as long as it does not violate a discriminatory statute (i.e., you're black or Jewish or Asian or whatever so we won't rent to you). If the rental house only has so much inventory to go around then if they are willing to rent out, say, all their block batteries to you, what are they supposed to do for themselves? It is a legitimate business concern.

[jbeale]

The reason I believe that the original communication came from the States is cause us English people can spell :tongue: (i.e. "Offence" rather than the American version "Offense").

Yes but the quote was "sackable offense" which made me think the opposite, because people are "sacked" in the UK but they are "fired" in the US, right?

[Noah Kadner]

I'm going to have to cry BS on this one or at least it's relegated to one office. It would be just silly of them.

Besides- who cares anyways. You're all set with a nice set of ARRI Ultraprimes or Cookes which you can find everywhere. If Panavision wants to deal themselves out of the RED game that's their prerogative. But still I highly doubt this is company-wide official policy. Show it to me in writing...

Noah

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well, let's all just forget for a minute that Soderbergh used Panavision C series anamorphics with RED. I know of a couple others that have rented and used the same. I got a price quote a few weeks back for renting C series anamorphics for a proposal I was putting together. I told the rep I talked to that the lenses would be used on RED and he was very intrigued, friendly, asked me questions about the camera, etc..

Not attacking Stephen, but if there is such an incident going on with Panavision UK, it sounds like a sackable offense of a different nature.

I'm also with jbeale on the origin, if this communication really does in fact exist. In the US, nobody gets "sacked". And I've met plenty of English people that couldn't out-spell my cat. Offence / Offense is likable to Colour / Color.

[Stephen Webb]

Well, if it's a local thing then it's Europe not just the UK - the call I made earlier was to Panavision's European HQ.

Could be right on the "sackable" "fired" thing, hadn't thought of that.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yes but the quote was "sackable offense" which made me think the opposite, because people are "sacked" in the UK but they are "fired" in the US, right?

That would make more sense. I was actually just skimming through the post to make sure nobody mentioned this.

I was going to call bullshit on the grounds that they used "sackable" in the memo since it's non-HR verbage and sounded too casual to be official.

[Jeff4444]

Im currently travelling and this post has been brought to my attention so please be advised of the following:

All Red users


Panavision's policy, as expressed to its worldwide staff, is to rent equipment to customers as available (and on acceptable commercial terms) regardless of its intended use. In fact, Panavision owned lenses have been used on Che, Harry Potter ride footage, and a number of other Red One projects including a number of UK commercials. Despite the fact that users have posted repeatedly on reduser that they have rented equipment from us without problem, this story continues to pop up and I wish to clarify our position.

Jarred, we would deeply appreciate it if you would post this as a sticky in the hopes of settling this once and for all.

Yours sincerely

Jeff Allen
Managing Director
Panavision Europe Ltd

[Brandon Fraley]

well that settles that :)

[Stephen Webb]

Jeff,

Seriously - I spoke to a member of your hire team at your Greenford office and she told me categorically that they were not allowed to rent to anyone shooting on Red.

We start a short film tomorrow in Edinburgh with Robbie Ryan as DP and we couldn't source anything from Panavision Glasgow because they told us the same thing. In the end we got lenses shipped up from Arri Media who gave us a great deal, but it was a shame a company who pretty much have a monopoly locally were not willing to help us.

If you're now saying that this policy is a mistake or misunderstood or miscommunicated then great - please give me a call 'cause we're now talking to a company in Newcastle just to try to source lighting! It would be great if Panavision could help us out instead.

Cheers.

[Finner]

Seriously - I spoke to a member of your hire team at your Greenford office and she told me categorically that they were not allowed to rent to anyone shooting on Red.

I have been told the exact same thing from the Panavision in my city and have had to source equipment from PS and Clairmont. Panavision is the only high end rental house in my city so I have had to fly the equipment in from the other rental houses mentioned. If your policy has changed and Panavision is now renting to red projects please private message me because I would like to get this sorted out as well.

The "Panavision will not rent to red projects" policy has forced me to buy a lot more equipment then I had planned. In the end if Panavision does open the doors and allows me to rent from them I will need a lot less gear then if this policy had never existed.

[Noah Kadner]

Im currently travelling and this post has been brought to my attention so please be advised of the following:

All Red users


Panavision's policy, as expressed to its worldwide staff, is to rent equipment to customers as available (and on acceptable commercial terms) regardless of its intended use. In fact, Panavision owned lenses have been used on Che, Harry Potter ride footage, and a number of other Red One projects including a number of UK commercials. Despite the fact that users have posted repeatedly on reduser that they have rented equipment from us without problem, this story continues to pop up and I wish to clarify our position.

Jarred, we would deeply appreciate it if you would post this as a sticky in the hopes of settling this once and for all.

Yours sincerely

Jeff Allen
Managing Director
Panavision Europe Ltd

Yeah as I suspected it's a couple of nutty local rental managers going rogue. A company-wide policy of this sort from Panavision is utterly ridiculous and I never believed it for a second. Sounds like it's time for Jeff to clean a little house with his dealers.

Noah

[James T Mather]

Stephen - say Hi to Robbie for me - Great guy - lousy DP - (kidding! He's a stunning DP and Camera Operator - Red Road was absolutely beautiful)

(PS - say thanks to him for the shout from warp films - much appreciated).

[Jeff4444]

Stephen
Speak to Mick Walsh at Greenford Im out of the UK until Monday next week. Give Robbie Ryan our best he is known to us and in particular Dean Oram in Manchester.

[Trevor Meier]

Panavision's policy, as expressed to its worldwide staff, is to rent equipment to customers as available (and on acceptable commercial terms) regardless of its intended use.


This is great news, as this policy has not been our experience (despite my business partners having long relationships with Panavision.)

[Stephen Webb]

Stephen
Speak to Mick Walsh at Greenford Im out of the UK until Monday next week. Give Robbie Ryan our best he is known to us and in particular Dean Oram in Manchester.

No worries, we're all sorted (finally!)

And thanks for clarifying this issue Jeff, if I have any problems in future I can use the "but Jeff Allen says..." line :wink:

[ButcherBoy]

Panavision Canada has the policy not to rent lenses and accessories to Red Projects. This is a hard and fast rule. Other Panavision offices may entertained the idea of renting lenses and accessories, but the Red directly impacts the Genesis Camera system; therefore, it has never been in Panavision's best interest to "aid" competing camera systems.

This policy strangely incorporates the Panasonic HVX200 as well.

If there is any doubt please contact Panavision Canada and asked to rent Zeiss Super Speeds for a Red project. Unless Policy has changed over night, the answer will be "No".

PANAVISION VANCOUVER
PHONE: 1-604-291-7262

PANAVISION TORONTO
PHONE: 1-416-444-7000

[Mitch Gross]

... and yet I discussed this with a couple of people from Panavision not five minutes ago who said that this was all preposterous and OF COURSE they will rent to whomever for whatever. And these were people high in authority -- those that really know.

The issue can perhaps be limited resources of gear (I'm speculating here). If they have 10 sets of glass and eight are already spoken for with the possibility of the other two going right out, then they'll tell you "no" because they need to have enough for their own gear. Maybe that's it.

[ButcherBoy]

I think we need confirmation from the President of Panavision, Bob Beitcher (Woodland Hills) on what Panavision's policy is or is not on sub rentals on Red Projects.

To have the Marketing Department in one Panavision office allow rentals while another office denies a request for glass and accessories for Red Project is confusing and counter productive.

If there is a policy, the policy is not uniform throughout Panavision Land.

I believe everyone has had unique experiences while trying to rent lenses or accessories for Red Projects - some positive and others negative.

Cheers

[Brent J. Craig]

I think we need confirmation from the President of Panavision...

Exactly! Many of us here in Toronto have heard it both ways. Let's get the official word (and make sure it is copied to Panavision outlets worldwide!)

[Mitch Gross]

Trust me when I tell you that what Jeff Allen posted made its way through the hallways of Woodland Hills before arriving on reduser. Official Panavision policy has been posted. If you have any difficulty at a given Panavision office, I suggest you refer them to this policy statement.

[Finner]

You can state what you want Mitch but I have first hand faced Panavisions "Will not rent to Red shoot's" policy. I have been told this by a Panavision manager. I would tend to think that You Mitch would know more about Abel Cine's policies then a Panavision employee and hence would feel a Panavision manager would probably know more about their policies then you would.

[Noah Kadner]

You can state what you want Mitch but I have first hand faced Panavisions "Will not rent to Red shoot's" policy.

It may well be the work of some local rogue office managers but no way in that is "official policy". What a silly non-issue.

Noah

[Finner]

It is not a rogue manager when it has been Faced by red owners in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary.

It is by no means a non issue when I have had to rent from Clairmont Vancouver because of this Panavision policy.

[David Mullen ASC]

The person I asked at Panavision about these continuing rumors a few months ago said that there was no specific anti-RED rental policy in place -- he said the same thing that Jeff Allen said.

But I tried to rent an Arricam package from Panavision Vancouver a few months ago and they gave me a Panaflex package instead because they said their inventory of Arri cameras and PL-mount lenses wasn't big enough to support our production. They had the items, but not all the items I needed for my production. My impression was that they couldn't support a lot of Arri / PL-mount productions, I think part of the problem was that they didn't have enough 3-perf Arri cameras to cover my feature. After I got a tour of the facility, my impression was that it was a rather piecemeal Arri camera / PL-mount lens collection they had there inherited from some other company, and though a few features were using it, it was more commonly used for commercial shoots using 435's.

I'm doing two RED features now with lenses from The Camera House. I didn't even think of going to Panavision here in Los Angeles, not for PL-mount lenses.

[David M]

I think we need confirmation from the President of Panavision, Bob Beitcher (Woodland Hills) on what Panavision's policy is or is not on sub rentals on Red Projects.

To have the Marketing Department in one Panavision office allow rentals while another office denies a request for glass and accessories for Red Project is confusing and counter productive.

If there is a policy, the policy is not uniform throughout Panavision Land.

I believe everyone has had unique experiences while trying to rent lenses or accessories for Red Projects - some positive and others negative.

Cheers
Well, here's his email address, and he does actually answer emails. (This is a JPEG graphic so Bob won't get spammed by data miners)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/6844_1212040114.jpg

[Mitch Gross]

You can state what you want Mitch but I have first hand faced Panavisions "Will not rent to Red shoot's" policy. I have been told this by a Panavision manager. I would tend to think that You Mitch would know more about Abel Cine's policies then a Panavision employee and hence would feel a Panavision manager would probably know more about their policies then you would.

You're certainly correct that I would know Abel Cine Tech policies best - I help set them. But I was meeting with two Panavision employees - two people who were very high up the food chain and were intimately knowledgable about not only the question at hand but this thread in particular -- and they told me that there is no grey area to this policy. The only question is availability, which is an issue for everyone all the time. If it is available for rent, it is available for RED owners. If you want to rent the damn stuff just to sit it on your desk and admire then you can.

[Mark L. Pederson]

If it is available for rent, it is available for RED owners.

This was the official word I got as well.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just a quick note to say that Abel is happy to rent glass and anything else in our inventory to anybody.

And for the record - Abel has, and continues, to provide Offhollywood with fantastic service and rates on Red jobs every week. Now ... if I can just convince them to buy even MORE Cooke S4s ....

[Francis Kenny]

What a company does publicly, and what it does privately, are sometimes different. Those with an issue with Panavision must understand that Panavision is a privately owned corporation (87% of the controlling stock) and it can choose to rent, sell, buy to whomever it pleases. One reason we use Panavision is that they have a "camera system". Parts and pieces all fit together to make our lives easier. They are also in the business of promoting their own products. Genesis is their product. I am sure that there is much truth to both sides of this story. But it is a non issue. Panavision does not have to publicly come out with a statement regarding their rental policy. Why should they? Read between the lines.