another 2k digital camera? "noX"

[jbeale]

While we wait until NAB for more RED news, maybe this is an interesting topic for some: a new 2k digital cinema camera called "noX" that I never heard of, using a 1.2" sensor (not sure exactly what dimension that is). Some stills online but no videos yet. No price listed but they claim they will be shipping "around June/July 2007".

It is being developed by SG Vitec in Germany. Some features seem similar to Red, like recording to compact hard drives. They seem to be using an entirely uncompressed format, they mention 2k 24fps would be 380Mb/s with 8-bit LUT, from 14-bit A/D.

http://www.gsvitec.com/index.htm

[Adrian T.]

Product design looks awful. :sick:
But if it delivers at a reasonable price...

[Gabriel Beaudry]

Whats the pricetag on that one?

[Alexander Nikishin]

It claims to have 12 stops.....:love:

[Bruce Allen]

If it's $5000, I'm there. Otherwise, I'd rather rent or have a share in a Red (cough). In fact, even if I had no access to a Red, if it's > $5000, I'd rather have a Canon HV20 and a 35mm adapter, some lenses, follow focus, matte box and a lighting kit... Please note the lack of high fps options - sorely needed since I'm a music video director

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

Hmm, saw this on their page:

"Film Sponsoring
Film talents need to be supported. Since we live in difficult times for innovative film projects we as a manufacturer of cameras and filming equipment feel obliged to promote such projects with technology and know-how.

If you have an interesting film project please drop us an email with your project description and let's see if and how we can help you."

That's kinda sweet and nice and well-intentioned! Guess we shouldn't be too hard on 'em then...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Finner]

It claims to have 12 stops.....:love:

Ya they claimed greater then 12 stops. Wow thats pretty impressive

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hmm, saw this on their page:

"Film Sponsoring
Film talents need to be supported. Since we live in difficult times for innovative film projects we as a manufacturer of cameras and filming equipment feel obliged to promote such projects with technology and know-how.

If you have an interesting film project please drop us an email with your project description and let's see if and how we can help you."

That's kinda sweet and nice and well-intentioned! Guess we shouldn't be too hard on 'em then...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I agree, in fact I wish them the best of luck. With the removal of Tape Drives we are going to see a LOT more cameras being created by smaller companies.

One of Jim's unique strong points is his sense of design. He also pulled the best from each field in the creation of the camera. Between the software creation, and the Sensor itself, I would be willing to bet a lot of ground breaking things are in the RED camera.

I am comfortable with RED and I am still very confident it's the best thing out there for me. If these other companies can create a sub-$8k camera, they may speak to a segment of the market that RED cannot.. I wish them luck

Jay

[Finner]

This camera seems like it is being marketed to a much smaller group. In fact in the sales info it says that the camera is only available to european buyers for now but plans at some point to sell to america. All this in mind I would be very suprised if the price was anywhere under 30k or more.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Frame grabs look good.

[Finner]

Frame grabs look good.

If it really does have over 12 stops it could give red a run for its money. It would be interesting to see it in a test shootout with red. With that many stops it may even be the winner in some of the image areas.

[jbeale]

It is interesting to me to see how different teams have a different approach to image processing. For example I think the noX team is going for a "sharper" look which may have some color aliasing consequences. I tried looking closely at the details in this noX sample image Nox_1080p_sample_still_4.bmp (http://www.gsvitec.com/downloads/Nox_1080p_sample_still_4.bmp) and I see what I think is a lot of false color around the tree branches. Below is a crop at 200% size in the area I'm talking about. There are some green and purple colors around the branches. I don't know how visible this would be when projected, but I'd worry that it would be visible.

http://www.bealecorner.com/D30/misc/Nox_still_4-2x-crop.png

[Poi Boy]

Looking at anything at 200% always looks really bad, but this look worse than it should. As far as latitude, not much dif between 11.3 and 12.1 in the real world.
Aloha
-A

[Finner]

Looking at anything at 200% always looks really bad, but this look worse than it should. As far as latitude, not much dif between 11.3 and 12.1 in the real world.
Aloha
-A

Did you see 12.1 on their specs? If so I missed it all I saw was more then 12 stops. This is what they claim though as dynamic range, just like RED claims 11.3 although on an independent test red had a poor dynamic range with the cannon prosumer camera out performing it. Any company is going to pump their product up as much as possible and I am waiting to confirm dynamic range until a qualified non red employee tests the camera and comes out with different results then the 8 or so stops it tested at by an independent tester.

[Graeme Nattress]

That image shows two things:

1) no OLPF, causing colour fringing
2) zipper artifacts from really crap debayer.

Graeme

[Manfred Lopez]

...although on an independent test red had a poor dynamic range with the cannon prosumer camera out performing it.

...and comes out with different results then the 8 or so stops it tested at by an independent tester.

Really? When did this happen? 8 stops is pretty bad.

[Robert Jackson]

I am waiting to confirm dynamic range until a qualified non red employee tests the camera and comes out with different results then the 8 or so stops it tested at by an independent tester.

I'm not going to say much about that test. I was kicked off another forum permanently for bringing it up at all and then I was contacted by the parties who conducted the test and told that the test was copyrighted proprietary information. So...uh...let me at least say that the test in question was performed on an early prototype and then compared with a number of cameras that were commercially available. I kind of felt like it was an unfair comparison at the time. I have no idea if the production RED One will do any better in the test than the prototype did, FWIW. I just thought that it was kind of unfair to put it on a chart next to a bunch of commercially available products. Perhaps no harm was intended and I was just being overly sensitive.

Now this noX thing...it's a single chip 1.2" CCD design. Isn't 1.2" the size of the Olympus 4/3 chips? I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that being the case. So about a 2x crop factor as compared to 35mm still lenses as opposed to a 1.5x-ish crop factor that you get with S35? Not a bad sensor size, really, but what kind of lens mount? They say something about standard 16mm and 35mm lenses. It would be nice if they mentioned the actual sensor dimensions. I'm not familiar with the 1.2" format. If they're serious they'll be at NAB.

[Brook Willard]

The "8-stop" test people are thinking of was performed with Frankie at a very very early age. Within about a week of the test, Mysterium's numbers jumped to 11.3. These were in the days when the folks at RED were finding latitude everywhere in the sensor... it just needed code to be let out.

[jbeale]

As I recall, the 8 stops figure was based on some analysis of the posted images from the tests David Stump did in late 2006, but shortly thereafter there was some modifications of some sort done (not sure if software, hardware, both?) and Jim posted a new measurement showing over 11 stops (see: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=81188 )

Regarding debayer algorithms, I wonder if an extra-super-clever debayer algorithm could look ahead or behind a few frames in case the camera was panning slightly, and if it could do motion vector estimation, then it could resolve color ambiguity more effectively. Admittedly, that would probably take too much computation time to be effective.

[Tonaci Tran]

It looks like there are a bunch of 2k cams popping up from small companies that look like mini pcs strapped onto camera heads. One thing unfortunately for them is that they don't have the wonder REDCODE RAW.

[Jannard]

I believe that this records 8 bit at 380MB/s. Max 25fps at 1080P. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the 8 stops reported last fall... that was a setting error on Jim's (me) part. We quickly fixed my ineptitude and demonstrated 11 1/3 stops at 12 bits. Dynamic range is important, so is a wide color space.

If this camera is priced right then we welcome it into the field of good alternatives for inide shooters, right along with SI. We only wish them the best.

Jim

[Gianny Trutmann]

Thanks for the honesty Jannard

[Gbabymogul]

Are you planning on having David come back and do some more tests?

In a way it's sort of academic because it comes down to 'useable dynamic range' anyway, but the Shepperton tests were interesting.

I'm too cheap to do another filmout test, so I hopefully someone else can do it. Numbers are great, but seeing it in a theater is the true determinant...


:-)

[Chris Gearhart]

Hey Tuto! You got 658?! Argh. If only I had submitted my reservation a week earlier. Oh well. Enjoy!

The noX does look pretty ugly, don't it? Not that ugly matters, really. I wish them best of luck too.

They have the sensor listed as 1.2". Is that a typo, meaning 1/2 as Jim mentioned? Could be, as 1.2" (30.4mm) seems a funny number to choose.

I too think we'll be seeing alot of cameras proliferate, and while I don't want to naysay others' wonderful efforts, Jim and Red seems the company to beat. It is not everyone who can pull together what Red has. A great business model; strong history of invention, design, production and distribution; film and photography experience; passion; a great, somewhat simbiotic relationship with the user community; drive and comittment to excellence; plain old coolness; and the networking ability. Most small houses can't pull it all together, and most large ones won't.

Also, with the product itself, the whole package must be kept in mind--the combination of specs of Red is the thing to watch (as opposed to beating one or two). Redcode, Redcine, 11+ stops, 4k, 12 bit, variety of media and lens option, quality accessories, modularity, workflow, tankness, price, etc. etc. It will be easy to best one or two of these, but not all of them over the long haul.

I'm for one betting on Red outlasting any competition for a good long while. Excellence isn't really common. If it were, we'd see more of it.

[Chris Gearhart]

Hey Jim. The one thing that I really wish Red had, and now I find that noX has one--A cup holder. I really hope NAB's little surprise includes a cup holder, or I'll want my 110% back.

From the PDF, lest you think me a jokester:


...12 V two pin connector for external accessories
Cup holder (no joking!)

[Manfred Lopez]

I just wish current technology would allow the creation of a 15-stop sensor. This is the dinamic range of 5245, one of my most-favorite-least-practical film stocks.

[Jannard]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim

[Paris Remillard]

Didn't Jim say at some point that 12 stops was the most that one could get out of a 12 bit sensor? So, how could one get more than 12 stops out of an 8 bit sensor? I thought that dynamic range was determined by s/n ratio, but then after Jim posted that, I assumed that bit depth had a hand in it as well. I'll admit that I'm a total dummy on this issue. Someone help me out here.

[david farland]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim


Jim,

I really need the specs on that......understand you guys are flat out but it'd be great to get some info before NAB......

anything....is 11 or 12 pots?

Cheers,

[Brook Willard]

Jim,

I really need the specs on that......understand you guys are flat out but it'd be great to get some info before NAB......

anything....is 11 or 12 pots?

Cheers,

Actually, this is making me uncomfortable. I thought the coffee feature was going to be implemented from day one... this last minute business is making me wonder about heat dissipation.

Guys, you really dropped the ball here.

[Chris Gearhart]

...is 11 or 12 pots?

11.3 pots or greater. But at significant noise levels.



Didn't Jim say at some point that 12 stops was the most that one could get out of a 12 bit sensor? So, how could one get more than 12 stops out of an 8 bit sensor? I thought that dynamic range was determined by s/n ratio, but then after Jim posted that, I assumed that bit depth had a hand in it as well. I'll admit that I'm a total dummy on this issue. Someone help me out here.

It has a 14 bit analog to digital converter, but records in only 8 bit, per the website. Maybe their latitude is clocked before recording? I wonder if we're missing something here. They're certainly touting 12+ stops.

[Brook Willard]

Think about the latitude you can see when you watch a DVD of something shot on film. Sure it looks like film's latitude, but is it really? Nah.

[GlennChan]

Didn't Jim say at some point that 12 stops was the most that one could get out of a 12 bit sensor? So, how could one get more than 12 stops out of an 8 bit sensor? I thought that dynamic range was determined by s/n ratio, but then after Jim posted that, I assumed that bit depth had a hand in it as well. I'll admit that I'm a total dummy on this issue. Someone help me out here.

From my understanding, their analog-digital converter is 14-bit. They run this through a LUT, which 'compresses' that into 8 bits. So they just squeeze all that dynamic range into 8 bits.

The analog-digital converter itself is a bottleneck. They always have a linear response (i.e. where linear means no gamma / a power factor of 1.0; not to be confused with video gamma). When the A-D has a linear response, it cannot give more dynamic range than its bit depth.
So if you have a 14bit A-D, it will have output values from 1 to 2^14.
Since each stop is a doubling of the previous stop, the range ---1 to 2^14--- defines 14 stops.

Now the reason why Nox can put >8 stops into its 8-bit recorded image is that it applies a look-up table to the values coming off its A-D. You can cram those 14 bits into 8 bits, with loss of precision.

I hope that makes sense.

2- Noise lowers the number of effective stops you get, as does color shifting and clipping in highlights. So it can be difficult to compare the # of effective stops you get.

Film for example has like 20 stops of dynamic range; not all of it is useful/usable.

[Brook Willard]

Just imagine a graph with 0-100% on one axis and 0-16,384 on the other. The line passes through the graph at a 45 degree angle with 0 corresponding to 0 and 100% corresponding to 16,384. Now take that 100%/16,384 point and slide it down to 100%/256. A flatter graph results. Presto change-o, 14 bits becomes 8 bits.

[Stuart English]

The big problem with 8 bit recording of a higher dynamic range input (such as from a 10 or 12 or 14 bit A/D) is you need to be dead nuts on with your LUT - as once you have recorded the 8 bit depth signal you have no headroom left to post produce the recorded signal. This is what leads to the enormous complexity of the RGB processing circuits of HDCAM, VARICAM etc.

A much better approach is to record at greater bit depth - such as 10 bits or 12 bits (as RED does), and then you have lots of opportunity to push and pull the data around in post without worrying about all the bad banding or clipping issues that 8 bit imposes on you.

[Pol Turrents]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim

something like this?
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2717/b0001mxu7c01sclzzzzzzzasi0.jpg

[donatello b]

"how could one get more than 12 stops out of an 8 bit sensor"

i not sure they said it was a 8 bit sensor ??? they said something about 14bit A/D
under camera spec's it does state 2k res ( 2048x1152 25fps max ... doesn't state the bit depth)

under FAQ- file format =their own noX-RAW ...data rate at 1080p was 8bit 325MBs ...

[Priyesh P.]

The design of the ""Nox" is of course not very appealing, reminds me of the "drake" :http://www.drachenfeder.com/aktuelles/drake_hd.htm

But in any case, the system Mr. Jannard and his team has developed is hard to beat, whether technically or economically, I´m curious what "truecolorspace" really is about and if they could ( hard to think of ) comes up with something superior through their way of secret-lab development.

[Mardi_Gras]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim

LMAO...

[Adrian T.]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

:biggrin:

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8234/redcoffepo5.jpg

[Rainer Fritz]

would be funny to operate this cam on shoulder....

[Jeremy Hughes]

:biggrin:

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8234/redcoffepo5.jpg

Now you can get your entire movie done without taking any breaks it'll only take you one week once you get into production. 168 consecutive hours with your RED ONE.

[Hrvoje Simic]

We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim


Starbucks-type-of-coffee-maker or Italian ?

[Brook Willard]

This is why I post here. Not because of the team or camera, no sir. Because every now and then, somebody will take it upon themselves to Photoshop a coffee maker onto the back of a camera.

[Petr Dvorak]

yep, maybe Red should start to produce their very own brand of coffee beans :clown2:

... red of course

[Chris Gearhart]

Graeme is working on a great auto bean grinder--REDBeane. You can do some minor flavor correcting and ballancing. But it will not--please people: WILL NOT--make espresso.

[Emanuel A.]

Frame grabs look good.Quite impressive, actually.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3741/nox1080psamplestill1jpgwx1.jpg

EDIT -- Jim, now we're waiting for more blondies...

[Graeme Nattress]

Nice at a quick glance, but you can also see:

chroma fringing from lack of OLPF,
aliassing,
and zipper artifacts from poor demosaic.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

Graeme,

As I posted, (t)here is a good chance to post new footage release in any way other than as fair comparison material...

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3741/nox1080psamplestill1jpgwx1.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nox1080psamplestill1jpgwx1.jpg)

E. ;-)

[Chris Stout]

>>>Nice at a quick glance, but you can also see:
chroma fringing from lack of OLPF,
aliassing,
and zipper artifacts from poor demosaic.

...I'm glad you're on our side, Graeme.

[Robert Jackson]

Quite impressive, actually.


I know it doesn't have anything to do with the sensor's abilities, but I hate seeing bad white balance. You'd think that a demo frame from something you want to sell would be worth getting right.

[Sanjin Jukic]

The German girl is a really hot and sexy.

http://www.gsvitec.com/images/Nox_1080p_sample_still_7_small.gif

http://www.gsvitec.com/downloads/Nox_1080p_sample_still_7.bmp

[Emanuel A.]

Ditto Sanjin, ditto.

I insist. Only with "a" fair comparison. Until then, I just watch a blond(ie) sample... :)


>>>Nice at a quick glance, but you can also see:
chroma fringing from lack of OLPF,
aliassing,
and zipper artifacts from poor demosaic.

...I'm glad you're on our side, Graeme.

[steevo435]

would be funny to operate this cam on shoulder....


Yeah...at least it's ergonomically correct:biggrin:


While we wait until NAB for more RED news, maybe this is an interesting topic for some: a new 2k digital cinema camera called "noX" that I never heard of, using a 1.2" sensor (not sure exactly what dimension that is).


A quick trip over to the metric conversion site says that 1.2" = 30mm....roughly the same as a 35mm frame.
The question is, how are you suppose to use S16 lenses on a 35mm frame, as they claim?

[Hrvoje Simic]

This is why I post here. Not because of the team or camera, no sir. Because every now and then, somebody will take it upon themselves to Photoshop a coffee maker onto the back of a camera.

LOL totally

[Hrvoje Simic]

I really appreciate all the effort and knowledge used to develope new devices, and I wish these guys all the best,
but among DOF, codec, colour space, storage options, price....

[Anders Holck]

A quick trip over to the metric conversion site says that 1.2" = 30mm....roughly the same as a 35mm frame.
The question is, how are you suppose to use S16 lenses on a 35mm frame, as they claim?

1.2" inch is not the imaging diagonal, but the old Vidicon tube way of measuring the diameter of the tube.
Imaging diagonal is less usually around 2/3 of the tube diameter.

[Pol Turrents]

BTW, this camera is still in development.
color fringir, debayering problems, etc... maybe they can solve it before they launch the camera.
We have to give them an opportunity in the same way we give an opportunity to the red crew, silicon imaging crew...
Let's see how it works with the final product.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Nice at a quick glance, but you can also see:

chroma fringing from lack of OLPF,
aliassing,
and zipper artifacts from poor demosaic.

Graeme

I seem to remember some greenscreen footage which crossed my desktop a while back with some pretty severe demosaic artifacts and chroma fringing.... now who created that footage... let's see if I can remember who that was...

[Robert Jackson]

They have the sensor listed as 1.2". Is that a typo, meaning 1/2 as Jim mentioned? Could be, as 1.2" (30.4mm) seems a funny number to choose.

Kodak makes 1.2" sensors, but the ones I've heard of have been used for industrial applications with a C-mount lens and they have a square aspect ratio. So I guess I shouldn't have said I'm unfamiliar with the sensor size, but in every practical sense I am. I don't know anything about what lenses will cover the imaging sensor or what the effective crop factor is or anything like that.

[Joe Carney]

It's CCD instead of CMOS, are there any pratical limitations/issues of CCD vs CMOS?

[Robert Jackson]

It's CCD instead of CMOS, are there any pratical limitations/issues of CCD vs CMOS?

It used to be that technical work and image-critical things always used a CCD and CMOS designs were usually thrown in portable products that needed lower power consumption and less heat buildup. They say that the image quality anymore is pretty close with either type of chip, but I've never A/B'd comparable spec'd CCD and CMOS chips in a test environment. I imagine there are some here who have, though. ;-)

[steevo435]

From the noX website under FAQ's:
"noX is a single-chip system. What is the advantage over 3-chip prism systems?
Since three-chip cameras use a beamsplitter prism and three separate image sensors they do not need to interpolate color, but they require very complex lenses which prevents the use of standard lenses. Furthermore they tend to optical aberrations which result from optical alignment and thermal stability issues. The Bayer pattern color filter we use for noX is simple in design and delivers high-efficiency, uniform, stable, highly selective performance. Please note that the best professional digital still cameras in the world use Bayer-filtered sensors."

and:

"Can I use Digiprime™ lenses with the noX?
No. Zeiss Digiprime™ lenses were solely designed for 2/3" sensor systems. noX has a much larger sensor (1.2" format) and therefore uses traditional cinematography lenses designed for Super16 and 35 mm film."

[Ace]

REDS women are better looking.

[Alex Boothby]

And men!!!!!
..........
..........
????????
:huh: :huh:

[steevo435]

:sad:
REDS women are better looking.

And men!!
:huh: :huh:
Jesus.Why bother.

[Lexicon]

Video samples are now up on their website. Looks nice but they seem to be running way behind in shipping those cameras. Some parts of the website are also broken. Dunno what's going on there. I had no idea it even existed until two days ago when it popped up on Wikipedia under the Digital Cinematography entry.

[Leif Thomas]

I worked with a (kind of) prototype Nox as 1st AC and DIT on a student shortfilm here in Germany about half a year ago. I also hat a long discussion about the Nox, Red ans SI-2k with the designer of the Nox after we returned the prototype.

Many issues that we had on set (first of all noise and heat) were design-flaws that they promised to work on, so my complains to the prototype wouldn't be fair right now.

The imagequality was great. It topped the SI-2K mini that I know better than the Nox. But on the other hand there were so many things to troubleshoot:
- backfocus problems due to heat
- no 35mm DOF. I know what they are saying, but they only use a very small part of the square sensor. We checked the field of view against a viewfinder and it was not that far away from S16.
- the actual design wasn't very handheld-friendly (we shot on sticks and jib all the time)
- WindowsXP based and not secured. You actually could play games on it and for shure could plug-in an wifi-stick to surf in the internet (not tested)...
- really heavy design
- very heavy touchscreen-display with short cable - very hard to mount somewhere but the dedicated place

The price should be way more than the Red. I got some numbers in my head, but don't know if they are still up-to-date.

Oh, here it's me winning at solitair :)

[Tom Lowe]

So they are basically just strapping a lens to a PC. :)

[Andrew Hewlett]

Is started to have some interest till you said that it was a PC based camera. No way would I invest a load of money and time into something that was as reliable or not reliable as Windows. Just wait till you get a BSOD in the middle of a production.

[Lexicon]

I never would have thought it would have been a PC connected to a lens deal. Just one more reason to buy a RED One I guess.

[Petr Dvorak]

- WindowsXP based and not secured. You actually could play games on it and for shure could plug-in an wifi-stick to surf in the internet (not tested)...
...
Oh, here it's me winning at solitair :)

Lmao :)