Build 16... taste

[Jannard]

I shot these on Build 16 with each one adjusted 1/3rd stop to match the corresponding ISO. I opened in RA! REDspace and made absolutely no corrections whatsoever. I then saved out a 4K tiff, opened in Photoshop and scaled to fit this page. I made no adjustments in Photoshop except to scale.

Because of the size of this file... PLEASE do not copy it to paste in a response.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_queen's.jpg

[Graeme Nattress]

That's a great way to show B16 Jim! Thanks.

Graeme

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i Don't believe it it is incredable.iso 2000 ~ iso 120 am i didn't see the noise
Or it is just because a scaled version
EDIT --- Is it possible to post bigger version only for both of 120 iso and 2000 iso to see much detailed differences.

[Joseph Hutson]

Bootiful!!!:love:

[Jay A. Kelley]

I will say that if the big versions look as good as the small versions, then something incredible has been done here.

Jim, you KNOW I have to ask this now... Any idea when we'll get beta?

Jay

[Jarred Land]

i Don't believe it it is incredable.iso 2000 ~ iso 120 am i didn't see the noise
Or it is just because a scaled version
EDIT --- Is it possible to post bigger version only for both of 120 iso and 2000 iso to see much detailed differences.

Neither did I when i first saw it.. Not only the noise, but the consistency between the ISO's.

[Casey Green]

oh my.

[JustinGD]

I know the images are small, but I am having trouble seeing noise in any of the images, even at ISO2000!

Can we see the same test in build 15? :biggrin:

Thanks, I'm very excited to get this build.

[Jannard]

Here are a couple of 100% crops. In order, ISO 320, ISO 500, ISO 1000.

The noise levels and noise character of Build 16 are significantly better than previous builds. And remember, this is only part of the Build 16 story.

Again... no correction whatsoever. And don't paste these into replies.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_320crop.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_500crop.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1000crop.jpg

[Joseph Hutson]

Here are a couple of 100% crops. In order, ISO 320, ISO 500, ISO 1000.

The noise levels and noise character of Build 16 are significantly better than previous builds. And remember, this is only part of the Build 16 story.

Again... no correction whatsoever. And don't paste these into replies.

Jim
]

?????????? AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!

[Jannard]

I know the images are small, but I am having trouble seeing noise in any of the images, even at ISO2000!

Can we see the same test in build 15? :biggrin:

Thanks, I'm very excited to get this build.

Noise levels obviously get better as you scale down.

Jim

[Patrick Tresch]

Holy s....t!

[Sanjin Jukic]

ISO 320 is still The KING!!!

[Justin O'Neill]

This is blowing my mind. There must be some sort of magic involved...

[Joseph Hutson]

You might have answered my question somewhere else, but on the Scarlet will it be on the same page as the red one. As in having several upgrades, and at release, will the Scarlet have the same "build" per se as the Red One in '09?

[Jannard]

One more to chew on... ISO 200.

Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_200crop.jpg

[Joseph Hutson]

OOOOOOH AAAAAHHHHHH!!!:love:

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Here are a couple of 100% crops. In order, ISO 320, ISO 500, ISO 1000.

And remember, this is only part of the Build 16 story.



No this is part of BUILD 16 LEGEND:love:

[Joseph Hutson]

One more to chew on... ISO 200.

Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.

Jim


Until you say it is the last grab, I will keep pushing refresh. :-):usd:

[David Battistella]

Come on!

That's just the same 320 ISO image copy pasted a bunch of times. :)

Nice. Thanks for posting.

David

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

One more to chew on... ISO 200.

Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.

Jim


:w00t:THIS will keep me silent for ever . :whistling:CRYSTAL CLEAR

[Joseph Hutson]

:w00t:THIS will keep me silent for ever . :whistling:CRYSTAL CLEAR

Good! :bye2:

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Good! :bye2:
happy are you ?? :angry2: i will not :shifty:

[Joseph Hutson]

happy are you ?? :angry2: i will not :shifty:

:bleh:

[Jannard]

Here is ISO 2000 (be careful what you say about noise unless you know what you are talking about).

1st is 100% crop with no corrections. 2nd has a bit of NR. Check the quality of the noise in the blue channel of the 1st one. This is pretty incredible for ISO 2000.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_2000crop.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_2000cropnr.jpg

[Sanjin Jukic]

Leica Noctilux-M 1:1.0/50mm (http://www.imx.nl/photo/lenstest/noctilux-m_11050mm.html) at full aperture plus B16 and you'll get a fascinating wide open performance and amazing footage with non-available light (dark interior or night exterior shot) on RED.

No Arri/Zeiss Master Prime 50mm T 1.3 or any other fast lens could compete with that option.

[S. Um]

It is very good for ISO 2000. What does "a bit of NR" entail?

[mikeburton]

Wow! Very nice. Can't wait to hear some of the other features of build 16 as well.

[number6]

This is one really nice commercial.

[Joseph Hutson]

Congrats...by the way, me and the boys were wondering: How did you do it?

[Joseph Hutson]

Wow! Very nice. Can't wait to hear some of the other features of build 16 as well.

Be ready for tomorrow.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Here is ISO 2000 (be careful what you say about noise unless you know what you are talking about).



Noise ..:huh: what Noise . i don't see any :matrix:
realy great improvment thanks.

[David Battistella]

Here is ISO 2000 (be careful what you say about noise unless you know what you are talking about).

1st is 100% crop with no corrections. 2nd has a bit of NR. Check the quality of the noise in the blue channel of the 1st one. This is pretty incredible for ISO 2000.

Jim

Really Nice. Seeing just a little bit of "sharpening noise" (black pixels) around the whitest chips.

The Build 16 noise is more uniform and looks like this will be much easier to deal with in a CC pass A lot of this will with a good S curve, not to mention how much better all of the keying, etc. will be.

Is this under tungsten lighting?
WB settings?

David

[Jannard]

Congrats...by the way, me and the boys were wondering: How did you do it?

Why do you think it took us so long!

Jim

[Graeme Nattress]

David, that just shows how well RED footage stands up to a bit of mild sharpening, noise and all. As you know, there's no sharpening in the raw, so it's like salt - add to taste.

Graeme

[Joseph Hutson]

Why do you think it took us so long!

Jim

It might be long to you, but what you have done in the past 2 years, Sony and all of the other "so-called" big boys have never done.

Thank you.

[Jannard]

I think the most amazing thing is that the only differences between ISO 160 and ISO 2000 are the noise levels. The uniformity of color and gamma is unreal. You get to decide your noise tolerance range and make ISO decisions based on that without worrying about color shifts or levels changes.

Jim

[Andrew Benz]

Why do you think it took us so long!

Jim

Momma always said never rush the Chef(s)... First my Red(#557), then the e-mail on the EVF being ready and now an amazing preview of build 16. Jim, I am gobsmacked. Thank you, it's a great day to be a Red User. :-)

Andrew

[Warren Kommers]

Big time!

[David Battistella]

David, that just shows how well RED footage stands up to a bit of mild sharpening, noise and all. As you know, there's no sharpening in the raw, so it's like salt - add to taste.

Graeme

I know. That's what I was saying. There might have been much more in a previous build.

Just a little salt.

Nice work Graeme and team.


David

[Joseph Hutson]

Thank you, it's a great day to be a Red User. :-)

Andrew

It is a great day to be ON Reduser. :-)

[Levan Bakhia]

ok, now i feel i am victim in next hostel movie, and Jim is torturing me by not givin me buid 16. :) when will this end?

[Andrew Benz]

It is a great day to be ON Reduser. :-)

Absolutely Joseph... :-)

[Joseph Hutson]

ok, now i feel i am victim in next hostel movie, and Jim is torturing me by not givin me buid 16. :) when will this end?

Only when you receive Build 16.

[Corrado Silveri]

Gaaaaaaaaaaaasp.

JIM! You are the man!

[Joseph Hutson]

Absolutely Joseph... :-)

But then again, when is it? (besides the days of "I want interchangeable lenses yet I can' even afford them" days)

[Shawn Nelson]

WOw! Can't wait for this! I have an unshot scene in my current short that's just dying for this!

[mikeburton]

Are these amazing noise changes happening in camera or in RA after applying the REDSPACE/little of both? Will RC have the REDSPACE option when build 16 is in Beta?
This really is amazing!

[Bing Bailey]

this makes me very very very happy. its all knowledge in the bank that will help us get the absolute best from the camera and we don't even have to buy another one to get new features. how fantastic is that.

jim without RED it could have taken us another 10 years to get to a point like this with the heads of the other 5 familys. I can't wait to see how all this evolves. with epic and new sensor magic I can't wait to see just how far you guys can dig the rabbit hole

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thank you for your effort, Red folks.
I hope it's out before Tuesday.

[Jannard]

Are these amazing noise changes happening in camera or in RA after applying the REDSPACE/little of both? Will RC have these options when build 16 is in Beta?
This really is amazing!

The change in noise characteristics is in camera. I can't tell you how much work this was...

REDspace is a monitoring and output space. Our replacement for REC 709. But you will still have the REC 709 option, just like Build 15, if you wrongly choose to use it. :-)

Jim

[Patrick Tresch]

After teasing time... It's releasing time!!!!

even if it's a little beta :-) please.

Pat

[Dan Blanchett]

Wow. Can't wait.

[Paolo Tinari]

azz...
nice and redspace is amazing and andrew benz received "your evf is red" and i'm 631...
all good

[mikeburton]

The change in noise characteristics is in camera. I can't tell you how much work this was...

REDspace is a monitoring and output space. Our replacement for REC 709. But you will still have the REC 709 option, just like Build 15, if you wrongly choose to use it. :-)

Jim

Looks as though you guys have made a major jump. I see now how you said It will be easier to hit the sweet spot. So, is REDspace replacing REDLOG as well or will there be a need for REDLog still?
Great Job RED Team!

[Jannard]

Looks as though you guys have made a major jump. I see now how you said It will be easier to hit the sweet spot. So, is REDspace replacing REDLOG as well or will there be a need for REDLog still?
Great Job RED Team!

REDlog is still an option, as is Linear Light, but I'll always use REDspace. The in camera default will be REDspace viewing and the default gamma in RED Alert! and Redcine will be REDspace.

There are a few tricks left in the bag for Build 16.

Jim

[mikeburton]

REDlog is still an option, as is Linear Light, but I'll always use REDspace. The in camera default will be REDspace viewing and the default gamma in RED Alert! and Redcine will be REDspace.

There are a few tricks left in the bag for Build 16.

Jim

Thanks Jim! Can't wait to give her a test drive.

[Martin Weiss]

Now, I think there is way too much noise, and you should work a bit more on tweaking sweet 16. Actually, hold off til November, when I get my Red. Otherwise I just might go INSANE from waiting to put this Build into use. This is nothing short of mesmerizingly amazing! Anyone involved with build 16 should be locked up, otherwise they will be bought/manhandled by S*ny :)

http://www.mee.tcd.ie/~sigmedia/pmwiki/uploads/News.AcademyAwardPressReview/oscar_tablet.pnghttp://www.mee.tcd.ie/~sigmedia/pmwiki/uploads/News.AcademyAwardPressReview/oscar_tablet.png
Congratulations. If I had any influence, you would get 2 technical Oscars. One for the Red, and another for build 16.

First you enable us documentary makers to shoot again for the big screen. Now you enable us to shoot footage that would have been way too grainy before.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

This remind me of the early wonderfull days when first red units released to

customers. it was non stop of Madness of what this camera capable to do

Now History repeat's it's self .another RED MADNESS

[Jannard]

ISO 640...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_640crop.jpg

[Shawn Bannon]

oh man so awesome. I can't wait for BUILD 16.

[Evin Grant]

I think it's time for an H264 Jim, I'd love to see how that beautiful texture behaves when in motion.
Even if it's just on that chart.

[Antoine Fabi]

Stop!!!!

...too much emotion before the week-end :)

Incredible!

[Jannard]

ISO 800...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_800crop.jpg

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I'd love to see how that beautiful texture behaves when in motion.
.

Very clever request.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I feel that it'll be a second Christmas in the middle of the year for you guys. :)

Looks like a giant leap ahead.

I expect that this new magic will be in Scarlet too?

Yes? No? Yes (please)?

:)

[number6]

I feel that it'll be a second Christmas in the middle of the year for you guys. :)

Looks like a giant leap ahead.

I expect that this new magic will be in Scarlet too?

Yes? No? Yes (please)?

:)

Radoslav, by the time Scarlet gets here build 16 will likely be passe!:biggrin:

[Jannard]

Every camera we make will all share the best of our "discoveries".

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok this is really something.

Jim, will REDspace be created in such a way that 3rd partys can use it? I.E. I'd like to be able to use this in Premiere instead of REC709

jay

[number6]

Every camera we make will all share the best of our "discoveries".

Jim

Still, they won't all share the exact same "Builds", will they? Scarlet would appear to have needs that the One and the Epic might not initially... 3D?

edit: anyone know how to spell doomeresen correctly?

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm afraid I don't even know what it means.

:)

Jay

[Tony Lorentzen]

Seeing these shots and I must ask this one question, though... Jim, where's my camera! :) 8)

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Every camera we make will all share the best of our "discoveries".

Jim

Build 16 looks awesome Jim. Thanks for continuing to improve our beloved camera.

May i ask if some of those discoveries are also related to the audio department? Any of the known issues fixed?

Miltos

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

When i see all this beauty i am :sick: of waiting.

[Brent@RED]

Why do you think it took us so long!

Jim

As a guy not directly involved in firmware development, let me just tell you how hard Graeme, Jim, Deanan, Jarred, Matt, Rob, etc. have been working here at RED on Build 16. The fruits of their labor has all of us at RED amazed at these images just like you are.

Proud to be part of the RED team,
BC

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Every camera we make will all share the best of our "discoveries".

Jim


I guess this is a good reason for an "Avatar Mood Change".

<===

:)

[number6]

I'm afraid I don't even know what it means.

:)

Jay

Jay, It's something I heard that Lawrence aWelk used to say about himself when he did some dumbass thing:usd:

[Emmanuel Cambier]

You guys really kicked the s… of this sensor…

I am so gratefull to Claudio Miranda who probably has some responsability in starting all this crazy stuff.

Was it lit tungsten or daylight?
Even if daylight, this is truly astonishing.

Thank You Jim and Red Team:love:

Emmanuel

[BradWright]

It looks like there's a little noise in the dark purple sample on all three shots. It could JPEG compression or something else, but there is some kind of grain in the purple.

[Greg M]

wow....it looks like we are getting a new camera!

[Jannard]

I really like the way the highlights roll... nothing clipped BTW.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_320threads2k.jpg

[Patrick Tresch]

Did this improvement affect "sharpness" of the picture?

A comparison with build 15 would be great (even if the cam can't be "unbuilded" from 16 to 15)...

Thanks

Pat

[Justin O'Neill]

Gooooorgeous...

[IAN SUN]

That is an absolutely stunning image.
Congratulations.

[Jannard]

Did this improvement affect "sharpness" of the picture?

A comparison with build 15 would be great (even if the cam can't be "unbuilded" from 16 to 15)...

Thanks

Pat

Resolution (and apparent sharpness) are unchanged from Build 15.

Jim

[Patrick Tresch]

Chapeau!

Pat

[number6]

I know this is off topic Jim, but I really wish you would tell us what that threaded shaft is... It is driving me crazy, not being a car builder and all.

[Jannard]

I know this is off topic Jim, but I really wish you would tell us what that threaded shaft is... It is driving me crazy, not being a car builder and all.

It is an accessory shaft for my Arco dolly...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arco1_u.jpg

[number6]

It is an accessory shaft for my Arco dolly...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arco1_u.jpg

Oh... I meant to say "Not being a car(t) builder and all."

[Teague Kennedy]

Thanks, Jim. Looks Fantastic. Can't wait to try it.

[Ralph B.]

These noise levels are amazing! Makes me wonder how this stuff scales as you go from 4K to 3K, and 35mm to 2/3" chip size, and from Mysterium to MysteriumX. RED has been pushing the envelope in terms of resolution and made the brilliant decision to use RAW data that helps mitigate any shortcomings they may have with respect to film stock. So now RED is making tremendous gains in the image quality. It's looking bad for those other camera manufacturers.

The thought that anybody (or at least anybody with $3K) will be able to access an image capture tool that is in the ballpark of these images is mind blowing.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Okay... enough teasing just release build 16 now.... :bleh:

The results are awesome.

[Paul Hazlett]

As a guy not directly involved in firmware development, let me just tell you how hard Graeme, Jim, Deanan, Jarred, Matt, Rob, etc. have been working here at RED on Build 16. The fruits of their labor has all of us at RED amazed at these images just like you are.

Proud to be part of the RED team,
BC

While not cashing a paycheck from RED, I too am proud of you guys and all you have accomplished and am proud to be part of the red team in spirit.

[Casey Green]

May 30th 2008. yet another historic day in the life of RED.

congrats, Jim. :)

[Adam Clark]

unbelievable images... man... november is a looong way away.

[Joseph Hutson]

Jim, you sure do have a way of making an odd little shaft beautiful.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

the noise decided to scatter it seems and be smaller. build 15 noise is bigger blocks and clumped in certain areas....damn, this s*** is awesome!

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

unbelievable images... man... november is a looong way away.

Which November are we talking about...??

[Jonas Nyström]

Amazing!!!!!! When will we outside Valencia circle have the chance to shoot B16 ;-)

Not that November I hope!

[Steve Sanacore]

Fantastic!!

Thanks Jim!

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Hopefully before November 2008 right???

Im hoping June 2008...???? yeah :-) No really it is expected before November this year...?

[Jim Hoffman]

Are you teasing us with the 18-85 too?

[Joseph Hutson]

Hopefully before November 2008 right???

Im hoping June 2008...???? yeah :-) No really it is expected before November this year...?

i believe he is talking about his personal red.

[David Battistella]

Jim,

Will you share the lighting conditions?

Was the chart lit with Kino's? Tungsten? HMI's?

How much light is hitting the chart?

T or F stop?

Thanks again.

david

[Eryc Tramonn]

Damn. Wow. This is really unbelievable. I'm friggin' speechless. Jim, Graeme, Deanan, Jarred, Matt, Rob, et al. - you guys are amazing. It's truly incredible what vision, talent, brains, team work, tenacity and a WHOLE LOT of capital can do. It's rare when all those variables come together under one roof, so that makes this feat all the more impressive.

Jim - You were not only able to make your dream a reality, you succeeded in bringing mine that much more into focus too.

Damn.

[Jeff Coatney]

Wow! We've been shooting exterior daylight for the past two days with ND's and were stunned by the high quality of the imagery. I can't wait to access ISO 125. You guys never cease to amaze me. When will your documentary "How The Red Was Won" be released? ;)

[Joseph Hutson]

You guys never cease to amaze me. When will your documentary "How The Red Was Won" be released? ;)

When the Red becomes obsolete...wait, it won't!!!! Watch out SONY!!!

[Jason Diamond]

Ok. seriously the grain structure looks decidedly filmic. like others have said less clumpy and waaay smoother and even. granted its not moving and thats another test but i have no doubts it will be smooth and creamy. the iso spread is great and super subtle.
you guys are really killing it. makes me so stoked to think about Build 17!

[Paul Lee]

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't wait!

[Adam Clark]

Which November are we talking about...??

sorry for the alarm. my red number (4120) does not come up until november. build 16 is a new challenge for my patience ;)

[dvpixl]

why, that last one looks like film!

[Joseph Hutson]

makes me so stoked to think about Build 17!

Though they are so dedicated, and already working on ideas, and acting on them, I am sure that is the one of the last things they want to hear. :-)

[Joseph Hutson]

sorry for the alarm. my red number (4120) does not come up until november. build 16 is a new challenge for my patience ;)

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it ALL the time! :-) Lucky you!:angry02:

[Martin Weiss]

Jim,

Will you share the lighting conditions?

Was the chart lit with Kino's? Tungsten? HMI's?

How much light is hitting the chart?



How did you compensate for this huge range? If you did it with ND glass - did you get any of those "IR issues"? I certainly can't see any shift of colours in the blacks...

[Graeme Nattress]

F4 to F22 is what, 5 stops, which is like ISO 100 to 3200. I'd expect that Jim did an exposure ramp, stopping down 1 stop each time on the lens and boosting the ISO one stop each time to compensate. I did that here and it tracked beautifully. ISO3200 looked a bit crumbly, but hey, it's ISO3200 so what do you expect. But it looked essentially "the same" as ISO100 in tone and everything.

Graeme

[Joel Kaye]

F4 to F22 is what, 5 stops, which is like ISO 100 to 3200.

So are we talking standard light meter readings? Do the histograms seem like they match the light meter? Is tungsten still noisier?

(these images appear to be very promising)

[David Battistella]

F4 to F22 is what, 5 stops, which is like ISO 100 to 3200. I'd expect that Jim did an exposure ramp, stopping down 1 stop each time on the lens and boosting the ISO one stop each time to compensate. I did that here and it tracked beautifully. ISO3200 looked a bit crumbly, but hey, it's ISO3200 so what do you expect. But it looked essentially "the same" as ISO100 in tone and everything.

Graeme


Thanks Graeme,

I'm curious about the lighting because the sensor looks better at 5000K and above and Tungsten produces a "noisier" image. I am just curious to get the most out of the sensor and if that means daylight Kino's over 3200K RedHeads, that would be worth knowing.

I have found that lighting tungsten and setting the Kelvin to about 3900 yields a nice warm image with not much blue noise (I know most of this will be gone in build 16 because the color holds up so well at the different ranges)

I love the way the camera looks with LED LITE PANELS at 56K.

Quality of light is so important.

David

[Graeme Nattress]

Basically, we have two things fighting each other - tungsten light which is blue deficient, and silicon based sensors, which are insensitive to blue light. So to make white look white, we have two things we can do - boost blue, or diminish red and green.

What you're doing, David, is just not quite boosting blue enough to cause an issue, leaving the image a bit warm, but looking good. That's a fair and reasonable way to proceed. I'd hazzard that tungsten may look better, but I'd need to do proper light level balanced tests to be sure.

I think any silicon sensor based camera will look better with bluer lighting, just because of how silicon sensors work....

Graeme

[David Battistella]

Excellent Graeme,

Thanks for this concise explanation. Nice clear answer.

David

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i just found thisssssssss.....heya maybe my cam will come with build 16...

[C.H.Haskell]

well done Jim and RED team...now ship me the camera!

[Rick Darge]

Lookin creamy.. Like Baileys ..

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just getting caught up on this thread now... Very impressive.

Stepping back a bit to the ISO 500 and 640 images posted, something about the noise in those shots is somewhat alluring, seems to have a nice texture. I want to see it in motion. So I second Evin's request, even if we have a clip of a static chart.

[Joseph Hutson]

i just found thisssssssss.....heya maybe my cam will come with build 16...

Possibly build 17. ???

[Luis Ortiz]

This is crazy, man!

Build 16 definitely creates a unique grain. Almost fuzzy looking, having it's own distinct style. I think I'm starting to like this grain, or maybe I'm looking at this thread too long.

:w00t:

[SF Geek]

What's this talk about lower ISO with no penalty? Does that mean you can actually slow down the camera with the ISO, or am I just reading it wrong. I'm guessing I'm wrong considering it should just be metadata. It would be cool if I wasn't though.

[Jannard]

I lit this with one Kino and soft cover and an HMI in a softbox. Lights were each about 5' from the chart.

I metered this to death and came up with a matching consensus of exactly T5.6 at ISO 400. With no NDs, I opened/closed a 1/3rd stop for every ISO change (like 320, 400, 500, 640, etc.). I used a RED 50-150mm T3 zoom, so I ran out of room at ISO 125 on the open end.

Jim

[David Battistella]

I lit this with one Kino and soft cover and an HMI in a softbox. Lights were each about 5' from the chart.

I metered this to death and came up with a matching consensus of exactly T5.6 at ISO 400. With no NDs, I opened/closed a 1/3rd stop for every ISO change (like 320, 400, 500, 640, etc.). I used a RED 50-150mm T3 zoom, so I ran out of room at ISO 125 on the open end.

Jim

Many thanks. Great to know. Love it.

David

[David M]

Basically, we have two things fighting each other - tungsten light which is blue deficient, and silicon based sensors, which are insensitive to blue light. Graeme
They're not fighting each other, I'd say it was more correct to say they've joined forces to fight YOU!:biggrin:

[JarredKrakow]

What's this talk about lower ISO with no penalty? Does that mean you can actually slow down the camera with the ISO, or am I just reading it wrong. I'm guessing I'm wrong considering it should just be metadata. It would be cool if I wasn't though.

Yeah, I have the same question. I would love for there to really be "no penalty" for lower ISO and just remove NDs from the equation, but that doesn't sound right if ISO is still just metadata. Is it?

[Brook Willard]

I think the most amazing thing is that the only differences between ISO 160 and ISO 2000 are the noise levels. The uniformity of color and gamma is unreal. You get to decide your noise tolerance range and make ISO decisions based on that without worrying about color shifts or levels changes.

Jim
So I'll have ~5 stops over and ~6 stops under at any ISO? It won't limit me like it does in current and past builds?

Also, does the noise reduction algorithm that appears to be written into the codec [that noise is way too smooth to be without some kind of magic NR... even if it goes by a different name] change depending on the color temperature at which you process? In other words, is it aware of when I'm beating up the blue channel and will it dive in to save the day without me needing to apply additional NR?

Really nice stuff. Can't wait to see some footage.

[Clint Johnson]

If that noise isn't a fixed pattern, I can see some old guard film holdouts trying to stack a couple ND 1.8s just so they can get the image into ISO2000 for that grainy film look.

I personally love the clean image of Red and do not particular like the grain of film... unless it is serving a specific aesthetic purpose. But there are others who have a strong adverse reaction to the cleanliness of the properly exposed Red image and I can see some of them chasing the high ISO to get grain into the image.

That said, the grain at ISO2000 looks like something I would find acceptable for available light shooting where I wouldn't even think of using Build 15. It really amazes me that you guys can find stuff like this inside the camera and will be able give me, in essence, a brand new and greatly improved camera for the cost of twenty minutes of my time.

Commitment and support like this is how you won over my black little capitalist heart.

[I Bloom]

Yeah, I have the same question. I would love for there to really be "no penalty" for lower ISO and just remove NDs from the equation, but that doesn't sound right if ISO is still just metadata. Is it?

Well,
Depends on how you look at it.
Changing the effect of ISO metadata means changing a process that is happening both in RedAlert etc and in the camera's viewing pipeline.
It sounds to me like the changes in Build 16 are happening before the camera compresses the image as well is in the compression of the image AS WELL AS when the image is "developed" in RedAlert. According to the metadata paradigm, the first two processes should be unaffected by your metadata choices in camera. The third process sounds like it has also been redesigned.

So, I'm guessing that when Mr. Jannard says "no penalty" he means something different than "no limitations"? Are highlights more likely to crush in 100 ISO than in 1000?

Again, guessing. Hoping to test this new build very soon. I'm sure they are itching to release it.

IBloom

[SF Geek]

We're not talking about metadata or when or how it is applied. We're talking about actual sensor sensitivity, like in a DSLR.

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

sorry for the alarm. my red number (4120) does not come up until november. build 16 is a new challenge for my patience ;)

Phew... you gave me a heart attack an ulcer and sore ears. I was worried :waaa:

[I Bloom]

We're not talking about metadata or when or how it is applied. We're talking about actual sensor sensitivity, like in a DSLR.
From my obsessive reading of this forums I see no evidence that the sensor sensitivity has changed. I see a large amount of evidence that algorithms are changing.

I think it is about "the effects of metadata". About processing digital images and mapping values.

I could be wrong. But I feel you are barking up the wrong tree. Again I could be wrong.

IBloom

[SF Geek]

That's what I'm guessing. I was just hoping that that would be the case. I'd rather slow down the sensitivity than fill up my mate box with NDs and an IR filter.

[Luis Ortiz]

It appears that the images that Build 16 produces are better quality and more detailed than Build 15. Does that mean that the R3D files in 16 have more information in it, making them larger files. If the R3D files in 16 are larger, how much larger are they than Build 15?

Just want to know if I'm going to need more storage space for Build 16 projects.

Thanks.

[jbeale]

Not, obviously, that I'm privy to any RED secrets, but in general if they've reduced the noise relative to Build 15, prior to the Redcode compression, that would leave some "unemployed bits" that used to be encoding noise, that are now freed up to encode the real detail. So the end result might look more detailed, without actually requiring any more storage space. Just a thought.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

From my obsessive reading of this forums I see no evidence that the sensor sensitivity has changed. I see a large amount of evidence that algorithms are changing.
Jim said in another post that Build 16 will result in a re-rating of the camera.

Also, I'm pretty shocked that you weren't in the alpha, Ian.

[Gunleik Groven]

Jim is in the alpha, currently giving feedback to the team so that they can tweak out the bugs...


I am honestly shocked that my alpha mail got lost, but I'm trying to live with it...

Some more whisky over here please!

[Mark Pedersen]

I think the most amazing thing is that the only differences between ISO 160 and ISO 2000 are the noise levels. The uniformity of color and gamma is unreal. You get to decide your noise tolerance range and make ISO decisions based on that without worrying about color shifts or levels changes.

Jim

I agree. You usually see significant changes. This is incredible Jim. Awesome job!

The ISO 200 is unbelievable, 320 is significantly cleaner and 2000 blows me away. I wish I had that level of performance out of my Canon 5D.

So... of course you know, this only puts pressure on you to release it NOW!

M

[Dominic Cochran]

I spent about an hour reading this thread until I found out what lens was used. The results are very nice but it would be useful if parameters like what glass, focal length, and lighting conditions were used had been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

We appreciate everything you guys have accomplished but save the dramatic buildup, we need the info!

[Mark Pedersen]

I spent about an hour reading this thread until I found out what lens was used. The results are very nice but it would be useful if parameters like what glass, focal length, and lighting conditions were used had been mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

We appreciate everything you guys have accomplished but save the dramatic buildup, we need the info!

So... what's wrong with a little drama? It's Jim's style. And speaking of dramatic flair, how about giving these guys credit for doing something AMAZING not just "very nice."

The guy's excited. I would be too if it was my baby :)

Bottom line, we all benefit from Jim's passion for pushing this puppy to its full capacity.

Thanks Jim.

M

[I Bloom]

That's what I'm guessing. I was just hoping that that would be the case. I'd rather slow down the sensitivity than fill up my mate box with NDs and an IR filter.

Well hopefully some good mirror NDs will solve that problem a bit in the near future.

I would guess that at bit depths at and above 12 there isn't much difference between changing the sensitivity of the chip and changing the way you process the data digitally. Dynamic range is still about reaching for tones down in the noise floor, the tones you want and the noise seem to go together regardless. They seem from my limited knowledge to be more a characteristic of the chip design itself then of it's specific tuning. Again from my limited knowledge.

So what appears to be happening is reaching down into the noise to try and find more usable images in the valuable tonal ranges that also have a high ratio of noise, using what I would guess to be a combination of information gathered from the sensor, and very importantly new processes in the post processing i.e. RedAlert etc.

If one has been following the development of Redcode so far it seems to be a mantra: Their are certain things that can be done better, later, rather than in camera. Debayering for example is simply too computationally expensive to be done well in camera in realtime (and adds three times the storage so why bother). Sharpening as well, is unnecessary and probably reeks havoc for compression. In that sense what is happening in the camera is all about quickly delivering the very flexible "data" to slower but more capable post processing systems that turn that data into pretty pictures. A very special gift in clever mathematical wrapping paper.

Now I have a hunch from this mantra and from looking at these images that the real magic is in RedAlert. I'd even wager that the apparent noise reduction doesn't happen in camera exactly, though new types of data from the sensor might be needed to make it work.

One other fun thing I'd like to point out is that because of the OLPF no frequencies hitting the sensor can ever be as fine grained as the random noise on the sensor prior to compression. I imagine that is pretty useful.

Again, I like to speculate, because I'm fascinated by algorithms. Please bare with me.

IBloom

[Mike Van Laanen]

By the way, who's thumb print is on that accessory shaft?

[Mark Pedersen]

That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M

[Dominic Cochran]

So... what's wrong with a little drama? It's Jim's style. And speaking of dramatic flair, how about giving these guys credit for doing something AMAZING not just "very nice."

The guy's excited. I would be too if it was my baby :)

Bottom line, we all benefit from Jim's passion for pushing this puppy to its full capacity.

Thanks Jim.

M

I'm not sure why you're addressing my post specifically, but I'm glad I could be a part of the first time the Red Project was called "amazing" in all caps. Oops, that's probably not true.

Anyway, I'm glad Jim posted this thread and I hope for many more until I get my camera, I just wanted more upfront details to make the real info easier to glean from the noise and "you go girl" posts.

Red is a serious camera company, let's start treating them as such.

[I Bloom]

That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M

I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom

[Dominic Cochran]

I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom

Amen brother, I'm glad Jim got all that wacky ISO geekery out of the way, i just wanted to know what glass it was shot on! ;-)

[Mark Pedersen]

Never doubted for one moment that Red is a serious camera company.

Not disputing that it would be nice to have all the info upfront to make our post crusin' more efficient.

And trust me, I'm not a fan-boy.

Just thought I'd point out that while Red is a serious camera company, it's leader is personally invested and thus... may not always publish specs and details like a well-oiled PR machine. He's a visionary guy who shares the fruit of his imagination and commitment to making something great with a community of like-minded artists and camera buffs and sometimes just gets caught up in moment.

Peace,

M

[Sanjin Jukic]

Amazing!

Even you can see a fingerprint

on the top part of Mitchell's 4 way leveller from

MovieTech's Arco Dolly (http://www.movietech.de/Z_Katalog/MT_arco.pdf).

[Michael Grugal]

This is amazing Jim. Seeing the performance of the Mysterium sensor reminds me of my D3. Excellent.

[Dominic Cochran]

Never doubted for one moment that Red is a serious camera company.

Not disputing that it would be nice to have all the info upfront to make our post crusin' more efficient.

And trust me, I'm not a fan-boy.

Just thought I'd point out that while Red is a serious camera company, it's leader is personally invested and thus... may not always publish specs and details like a well-oiled PR machine. He's a visionary guy who shares the fruit of his imagination and commitment to making something great with a community of like-minded artists and camera buffs and sometimes just gets caught up in moment.

Peace,

M

Um, ok. You win.

Anyway, lens info would be appreciated in the future Jim. Images look great.

Thanks!

[laguun]

That's what I love about this camera. Geeks meet artists. Artists become geeks. Geeks become artists.

Right brain. Left brain.

Creativity.

M

Yeah - the red one camera really is building bridges between so far distant continents.
Skeleton crew meets a-budget to discuss,
40 year old cooke sp II prime meets brand new angenieux optimo rouge zoom,
experimental meets commercial,
it is really an exiting time for our industry.

The R16 results look impressive!

[Fredrik Callinggard]

The change in noise characteristics is in camera. I can't tell you how much work this was...

No but it seems very apparent in the pictures :biggrin: . With that noise characteristics it looks like RED will become the market killer it deserves. You guys have worked hard and this seem to be the answer to our prayers......

Now if you could...... hahahaha. Sorry you deserve that 2 days rest you talked about but after that it's back to work :devil: :wink:

Thank you guys! Can't wait to see how build 16 works!


Fredrik Callinggard

[Evin Grant]

I spent five days this past week testing build 15 with Jendra and the running joke on set whenever they're was a debate was "Look dude, I'm an artist, I don't deal with this geek stuff." As we filled drives with ten second test clips.

Sadly I think technical geekery is a place for cinematographers to hide when we don't feel fulfilled artistically... The beginning of a long conversation that should probably involve alcohol....

IBloom

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout. Leanardo Da Vinci was probably the biggest geek of his time. Every great artist had to master the craft before they can advance the art. Picasso didn't start his signature cubist style till after he was able to paint almost photo-realistic portraits and landscapes. All the Red is is another paint palette, all these lenses, dollies, cranes and VFX are brushes, and the screen, big, small or iPhone is our canvas. So we learn to paint. It doesn't make you less of an artist to master your medium, it makes you more of one. The trick, I believe Ian is referring to is striking the balance. And your right that does include alcohol. Bottoms up:biggrin:

[Michele Gavazzeni]

So, I'm guessing that when Mr. Jannard says "no penalty" he means something different than "no limitations"? Are highlights more likely to crush in 100 ISO than in 1000?

Maybe Mr. Jannard could directly answer to this without letting us speculating.

Here is a previous post by Graeme


Changing ISO is really changing where you place, in the range of 0-4095 code values, where mid grey goes. ISO100 will put the mid grey high up that range, and hence, there are few code values left for highlights. You are essentially trading less highlight lattitude for more shadow lattitude (ie, a noise free image). However, if there are shadows in that scene, you'll be able to dig further into them.

If you go to a higher ISO, you start adding highlight lattitude for noise / shadow lattitude. Say you now go up two stops to ISO400. Now you've gained two stops more highlight lattitude, but you've lost two stops on how deep you can dig into the shadows.

Graeme


Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.

Now its confusing me....

[Sanjin Jukic]

As I saw in the B16 examples by Jim

ISO 320 is still the king.

Probably with B16 it has got a lot "fatter" then before in B15.

So in RA you can nicely "dig up or pull down" to get picture of your "dreams".

ISO 100 ... <<<<ISO 320>>>> ... ISO 2000.

[David Wyatt]

Woah!! You Red guys must have sold your souls to the devil to get such clean images...I hope it was worth it :devil:

[Patrick Tresch]

Also, does the noise reduction algorithm that appears to be written into the codec [that noise is way too smooth to be without some kind of magic NR... even if it goes by a different name] change depending on the color temperature at which you process?


Wondering the same... Is this MAGIC PICTURE BUILD emprovement tight with some picture resolution trade off?

Jim stated that "Resolution (and apparent sharpness) are unchanged from Build 15."

Or is this noise emprovement the result of the way redcode is now encoded?

Thanks

Pat

[David Battistella]

Wondering the same... Is this MAGIC PICTURE BUILD emprovement tight with some picture resolution trade off?

Pat

Pat,

One thing I like about the RED image is the aesthetic. There really is not anything else that looks like RED and I can start to see the look of it as I watch more and more footage.

I would take a resolution hit for the aesthetics meaning. If increasing resolution or sharpness means changing how the color is displayed, the noise pattern or how the highlights roll off (which is very much like film) the I would choose to have those three things remain.

At 4K you are still capturing 4 times more information (not 2 times, 4 times) the information than a 2K film scan, so I do not think that resolution is a problem with the RED ONE.

I have seen supers sharp DALSA images, but the camera's image feels much more digital than the aesthetically pleasing, digital film like image from a RED.

my .02 cents.

Aesthetics over resolution for sure.

David

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I would take a resolution hit for the aesthetics meaning. If increasing resolution or sharpness means changing how the color is displayed, the noise pattern or how the highlights roll off (which is very much like film) the I would choose to have those three things remain.


Hi,

As for aesthetics, I agree that the RED team has created something beautiful, but are you saying that you like the compression artifacts in the noise of existing build? That is the only real problem RED has as it is now? This is exactly what RED seems to have address with the new build. With this comes a lot of advantages.

As for aesthetics against resolution I couldn't agree more but I don't think that'll be a problem (if so you can always go and rent a D21 or a Genesis :biggrin: )

Fredrik Callinggard

[David Battistella]

Hi,

As for aesthetics, I agree that the RED team has created something beautiful, but are you saying that you like the compression artifacts in the noise of existing build?
Fredrik Callinggard

No, It's not that I like that. Of course I do not like the noise, but the good news is: neither does RED, hence all of this work on 16.

What I do like is that RED does seem to be concerned with striking a good balance between the two. It looks like they went to work on 16 to find this balance.

David

[I Bloom]

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout.
I agree, hence the joke. DP's are famously mathematical magician characters throughout the history of Hollywood. We are the "geek" backbone of the whole operation... It can also go a bit too far. Balance is a good way to describe it. Consider famously well balanced characters Hall, Deakins... Storaro has his own line of gels... But we digress...

I'm interested in this notion that build 16 could be less sharp than other builds. I imagine this idea arises because we are used to the experience that noise reduction has some inherently negative effects on small details in an image. A couple of things might stand in opposition to this notion:

1. Because they are looking at noise from a specific sensor, they have a very good idea what ratio of noise to expect from what values. Meaning they could possibly tune their NR to look specifically at the blacks, leaving high value parts of the image alone.

2. As I said, the OLPF filters out high frequency data, purposefully softening the real image. However the noise occuring on the chip has not been softened, it is a random value per photosite. So they have an excellent avenue for distinguishing noise from image. In fact, the more noticeable the noise (the further out on the bell curve) the easier to recognize.

So in other words the situation that they are in, creating a noise reduction pipeline, if that is the right way to describe it, is different than if you were writing a filter that could recognize noise in any randomly acquired image that has already undergone OLPF compensation. So you can expect much better results and less, if any, image degradation.

Speculation on my part again.

IBloom

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

If that noise isn't a fixed pattern, I can see some old guard film holdouts trying to stack a couple ND 1.8s just so they can get the image into ISO2000 for that grainy film look.


Just as I expected, I might be able to get all the grain I need just by playing with processing... beautiful.

Now I understand why this mythical build16 was delayed for so long.

Oh, early'09 seems DECADES away... :waaa:

[I Bloom]

Jim said in another post that Build 16 will result in a re-rating of the camera.

Also, I'm pretty shocked that you weren't in the alpha, Ian.

Since it's a linear curve you can rate the camera however you want to, depending on how much noise or clipping you prefer. This doesn't neccssarily mean a change in the original data coming off the chip.

I am not in the Alpha group. If I was, I would probably just stop posting on Reduser altogether.

[Adrian T.]

Awesome! I cannot believe what I'm seeing. :w00t:
Great work RED guys!

[Daniel Reichenbach]

This is very promising and incredible guys. Looking forward to have 16 on my camera to shoot some 2K/120p greenscreen stuff with less noise. Thanks for the great work.

[Gareth Gerrard]

Bloody Hell! I can't even tell the difference... Amazing :-)

[Graeme Nattress]

2. As I said, the OLPF filters out high frequency data, purposefully softening the real image. However the noise occuring on the chip has not been softened, it is a random value per photosite. So they have an excellent avenue for distinguishing noise from image. In fact, the more noticeable the noise (the further out on the bell curve) the easier to recognize.
IBloom

The purpose of the OLPF is to prevent the extremes of aliasing you get when you don't have one! It's rather "fun" to point random cameras at a zone plate and see how they "react" and most will alias badly.

Graeme

[I Bloom]

The purpose of the OLPF is to prevent the extremes of aliasing you get when you don't have one! It's rather "fun" to point random cameras at a zone plate and see how they "react" and most will alias badly.

Graeme

No doubt the OLPF is extremely necessary. And the fact that you don't sharpen in camera is the correct way to do it and bold.

My intent is just to point out that this may have other advantages as well. Maybe I should stop speculating publicly. My apologies.

Ian

[David Battistella]

Maybe I should stop speculating publicly. My apologies.

Ian

Ian,

It's all good. You are a very valuable contributer here. It's just a discussion and you are often a very sober voice in them.

Keep posting.

David

[Graeme Nattress]

Ian, no problems. It's fun speculation. I'm just ensuring that a casual reader knows what the OLPF is for. One day I'll put together a rogues gallery of OLPF offenders.... :-)

Graeme

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I Love the RED ONE Camera as I think its the best digital cine camera out there in the market without the huge capitalists domination...
that's a word I had to say before saying any defect about the image..
well the image is ofcourse perfect, but, on of the images on this thread (the Close UP) can I ask what lens was used to shoot it?
coz I see a bad Chromatic abberration in the edges between darks the reflections which disapponts me.... does this have something to do with camera/sensor/lens ??? which?

[JarredKrakow]

Okay, can we get some closure on this? When Jim says there is "no penalty" for lower ISO he means there is "very little penalty" for ISO down to 125, right? I just want to let go of the dream of being able to shoot ISO 25 or 50 without ND. I'm asking Jim, Graeme, or anybody who can state it as fact.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

The noise levels and noise character of Build 16 are significantly better than previous builds. And remember, this is only part of the Build 16 story.

Jim



Maybe this is going over the top, but:

Because of this post, I´m scripting a lot of day scenes back into the night in my current screenplay.

Jochen

[Patrick Tresch]

I just want to let go of the dream of being able to shoot ISO 25 or 50 without ND.

In my opinion... you are asking too much.

Shooting at 200/125 asa is ok for low key images when you have small contrast in the highlights and therefore you can give more latitude to the darks. You just move virtually your 18% grey chart closer to clipping by 1 to 2stops.

I still think this build16 has 320 ASA nominal but handles the metering differently... also due to the darks (noise)emprovement.

You still have to use ND & filtering.

My 2 cents.:detective2:

Pat

[Mark Pedersen]

Honestly, the whole "I'm an artist not a geek" thing is a copout. Leanardo Da Vinci was probably the biggest geek of his time. Every great artist had to master the craft before they can advance the art. Picasso didn't start his signature cubist style till after he was able to paint almost photo-realistic portraits and landscapes. All the Red is is another paint palette, all these lenses, dollies, cranes and VFX are brushes, and the screen, big, small or iPhone is our canvas. So we learn to paint. It doesn't make you less of an artist to master your medium, it makes you more of one. The trick, I believe Ian is referring to is striking the balance. And your right that does include alcohol. Bottoms up:biggrin:

Evin, I totally agree, the more you understand the science and technology of your tools and your craft, the more effectively you can use them. I'm a former medical illustrator, so I totally relate to your Da Vinci reference. The intersection between art and science is very dynamic place.

M

[Bang WOW Bang]

In my opinion... you are asking too much.

Shooting at 200/125 asa is ok for low key images when you have small contrast in the highlights and therefore you can give more latitude to the darks. You just move virtually your 18% grey chart closer to clipping by 1 to 2stops.

I still think this build16 has 320 ASA nominal but handles the metering differently... also due to the darks (noise)emprovement.

You still have to use ND & filtering.

My 2 cents.:detective2:

Pat

I shot ASA 320 + Shutter Speed 1/48, S4 Cooke 32mm and Master Prime 50mm between ( ( 1/4 ) T 5.6 - 8 ) with ND Filter 6 in front of the glass at around 4:15pm in HKG in summer time in Mid May Temp around 27 C 91%.

Recording Media : RED drive
REDCODE 36
Build Version : 15:2.2.5
Zerba : 100IRE Under 1-1.5 Stops on the RED LCD.

Grading Systems : Scratch " Finishing " with CP-200 ( a Set of Four Control Panels ) connnected to 46" HD 4:4:4 LCD professional Monitor.

Pictures looked " No Noise " and " Creamy " with a Shine on crazy diamond feel and please email me to get those " WONDERFUL RED FOOTAGE ".

Cheers,

STEWART
Founder and TOP
REDHKSC
HKG -CHINA

05-19-2008, 11:08 PM #9
Bang WOW Bang
Senior Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 211 RED Shots with better optics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More better lenses to make reference images for our REDCODE Native DI system " Scratch " Pre-Post + Primary and Secondary grading.

The lenses we used for the test were :

1) Zesis Master Prime 50mm
2) Cooke S4 32mm
T stops 1/4 between 5.6 - 8 with ND6 mounted on the lenses

Audio Test with Dynamic Mic with mini-XLR input ( No +48v power to mic ) and the sound is fine.

Remarks :
My truth thankfulness to CINERENT - HKG ( Jeffrey and Louie )
Also my team mates : Quincy / Mike / Gorden @Video Film Productions - HKG

RED one settings were :
ASA320 / 1/48 / 4K 2:1 / REDCODE 36 / RED Drives / RGB Parade monitoring on RED LCD ( Under the Bright Sun Light !!! Not very good though ! )

More Pictures will be posted soon with Scratch 's primary and Secondary and final grading.

Cheers,

( SC ) Stewart Chong
REDHKSC
HKG
Attached Thumbnails

[Mark Pedersen]

I Love the RED ONE Camera as I think its the best digital cine camera out there in the market without the huge capitalists domination...
that's a word I had to say before saying any defect about the image..
well the image is ofcourse perfect, but, on of the images on this thread (the Close UP) can I ask what lens was used to shoot it?
coz I see a bad Chromatic abberration in the edges between darks the reflections which disapponts me.... does this have something to do with camera/sensor/lens ??? which?

Red 50-150. I saw that too, and chalked it up to the glass. (sorry, but I hope I'm right)

M

[Brent J. Craig]

Red 50-150. I saw that too, and chalked it up to the glass. (sorry, but I hope I'm right)

If you're talking about the close-up of the threaded dolly part (message 81 in this thread) upon closer examination what appears to look like chromatic aberration is more likely just the color patches from the chart behind it being reflected back into the metal.

I see an orange-red fringing on the front horizontal edge, but it looks to me more like a direct reflection of the light source that is clipping. CA is usually magenta/green not orange.

[BradWright]

I agree, hence the joke. DP's are famously mathematical magician characters throughout the history of Hollywood. We are the "geek" backbone of the whole operation... It can also go a bit too far. Balance is a good way to describe it. Consider famously well balanced characters Hall, Deakins... Storaro has his own line of gels... But we digress...

I'm interested in this notion that build 16 could be less sharp than other builds. I imagine this idea arises because we are used to the experience that noise reduction has some inherently negative effects on small details in an image. A couple of things might stand in opposition to this notion:

1. Because they are looking at noise from a specific sensor, they have a very good idea what ratio of noise to expect from what values. Meaning they could possibly tune their NR to look specifically at the blacks, leaving high value parts of the image alone.

2. As I said, the OLPF filters out high frequency data, purposefully softening the real image. However the noise occuring on the chip has not been softened, it is a random value per photosite. So they have an excellent avenue for distinguishing noise from image. In fact, the more noticeable the noise (the further out on the bell curve) the easier to recognize.

So in other words the situation that they are in, creating a noise reduction pipeline, if that is the right way to describe it, is different than if you were writing a filter that could recognize noise in any randomly acquired image that has already undergone OLPF compensation. So you can expect much better results and less, if any, image degradation.

Speculation on my part again.

IBloom

Although, the test images look really good, shooting color cards is a very limited test. Noise reduction and compression do alter the image, and fine detail can be lost. Color cards shots are not good showing at how fine detail is lost. It's just impossible to know exactly what is actually is getting removed from the image without comparing these stills to a completely uncompressed RAW unaltered image directly from the sensor. Still images, also, won't show any temporal noise that could be in the image, as well.

At the end of the day, if you like the image then that's all that matters. Things are looking really good though for build 16.

[Jendra]

Evin, I totally agree, the more you understand the science and technology of your tools and your craft, the more effectively you can use them. I'm a former medical illustrator, so I totally relate to your Da Vinci reference. The intersection between art and science is very dynamic place.

M


Mark, the more I get to know you, the more you fascinate me!


That belief has had me on a self-induced knowledge-building merry-go-round the last two years, and I must admit I've gotten a little dizzy. Technology is changing so much, that DPs now have to spend a lot more time than they used to learning about technology.

Being a cinematographer is 1/3 technical, 1/3 artistic and 1/3 managerial.

I know a lot of people who forget about developing the other 2/3rds. (This winter, I got bored of the merry-go-round and I took a leadership course and went to a bunch of museums and gallery shows. Now I'm longing to dig into my new "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" book!)

It's been in about the last 6 months that I've realized how out-of-balance I've been feeling about my craft. There's no end to how much there is to know, and it's an easy trap to get caught in, thinking you need to know everything. I became a DP because art, image-making and storytelling inspire me, not because I was interested in being a technologist. As I'm being invited on more & more speaking engagements to share my knowledge, lecture about digital cinema etc., I'm realizing more and more that I'd much rather be known for my talent and the quality of my work than for how much I know about pixels, bit-depth, and the MTF of the OLPF! This was the conversation from which the joke between Ian and I started about being an artist. Ian and I are both known to be DPs who are very knowledgable about the technology, but working with Ian this last week, I came away very inspired and impressed with Ian's vision and artistic sensibilities, and his talent and imagination!

In this round of tests in particular, I felt very empowered by the immediacy of seeing results of shooting experimental stuff (time-lapse, slow motion, heavy filtration, shutter effects, etc.) to be more bold, artistic, and experimental. Stop worrying about if it would come out "right" or playing it safe because film is expensive and you don't want to get it wrong. Try something, look at it, if it didn't turn out how you like, do it again. Freedom! Makes me want to have my own camera around to mess around and try stuff whenever I want.

Ironic that it was a similar conversation about DPs being a mix of technical and artistic (just like editors and architects) and how that suited my talents and personality type that got me involved with Red Digital Cinema in the first place. And yes, there was alcohol involved. :sarcasm: It was a conversation in the kitchen of Mark's Sundance condo, with some guy I had just met named Ted...

[jbeale]

One day I'll put together a rogues gallery of OLPF offenders.... :-)

If you do, here's a candidate for you. The Canon 20D has been a workhorse DSLR for a lot of folks, me included. But it certainly is not free of aliasing. Have a look at this 200% crop (taken from my test here: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/index.html#Test_3 )

At first glance it looks like there's a lot of detail. But on my original zone chart, all the circles are concentric! In fact, the entire upper right part of the rings in this image is false detail. If this was in motion, it would be even more obvious and pretty disgusting to look at.

[Trevor Meier]

One more to chew on... ISO 200.

Build 16 now lets you use slower ISOs with no penalty.

Jim


No penalty for lower ISOs... could you expand on that a bit? Do you mean no reduction in highlight range?

[Brian Broz]

Sounds like I'll be un-learning alot of the knowledge I've gained over the past while (in regards to iso/rec709/proxies etc)...but with further picture improvements and consistency through the whole workflow bring it on!!!!

[Mark L. Pederson]

It was a conversation in the kitchen of Mark's Sundance condo, with some guy I had just met named Ted...

Jendra - WRONG Mark - this is Mark Pedersen - I am Mark Pederson - it's okay - you have no idea how many funny stories there are about the mistaken identities of the two Marks!!!

[Trevor Meier]

I really like the way the highlights roll... nothing clipped BTW.

Jim



Wow. I've looked at a lot of Red footage. I've been in its guts full time since December. All I can say is... wow. What an improvement.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Wow. I've looked at a lot of Red footage. I've been in its guts full time since December. All I can say is... wow. What an improvement.

Yeah .. it seems Build 16 is no joke.

Still .... my money is on 17.

Bring on 17 !!!

[Red Istanbul]

well done!!!

[Gunleik Groven]

If I could only alpha 17, while you guys wait for 16... Heck! I'd even let both Marks in on that!

[sbove]

Leica Noctilux-M 1:1.0/50mm (http://www.imx.nl/photo/lenstest/noctilux-m_11050mm.html) at full aperture plus B16 and you'll get a fascinating wide open performance and amazing footage with non-available light (dark interior or night exterior shot) on RED.

No Arri/Zeiss Master Prime 50mm T 1.3 or any other fast lens could compete with that option.

Leica adapter would be very nice...their APO glass is phenom.

[Michael Hastings]

Leica adapter would be very nice...their APO glass is phenom.

Doug Underdahl already has a Leica adapter. Call him, his company is Long Valley equipment.

[sbove]

It is an accessory shaft for my Arco dolly...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arco1_u.jpg

get the Arri off that dolly! ;-)

[Jannard]

get the Arri off that dolly! ;-)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic.jpg

[Jason Ing]

Ahhh... much better.

And you even mounted the Epic.

Sort of overkill considering the Red One could have replaced the Arri as well. :)

[Jannard]

Probably closer to scale...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic2.jpg

[Adrian T.]

That's a stretch Epic! Is this the new design?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yeah, WTF is that? It still says RED on the side, looks like a RED mattebox and one of the upcoming primes... One of the early EPIC concept images, maybe?

Look at all the open space on the "smart side" of that camera with that big "RED" there. Would be nice to have some controls there. :tongue:

[I Bloom]

Ian, no problems. It's fun speculation. I'm just ensuring that a casual reader knows what the OLPF is for. One day I'll put together a rogues gallery of OLPF offenders.... :-)

Graeme

I'll take that as confirmation of my theory. :devil:


Jendra - WRONG Mark - this is Mark Pedersen - I am Mark Pederson - it's okay - you have no idea how many funny stories there are about the mistaken identities of the two Marks!!!

LOL!
Jendra's an artist man. Don't get overly technical.

IBloom

[I Bloom]

Noise reduction and compression do alter the image, and fine detail can be lost. Color cards shots are not good showing at how fine detail is lost. It's just impossible to know exactly what is actually is getting removed from the image without comparing these stills to a completely uncompressed RAW unaltered image directly from the sensor. Still images, also, won't show any temporal noise that could be in the image, as well.

At the end of the day, if you like the image then that's all that matters. Things are looking really good though for build 16.

Hold on. There is a fine distinction here.

On the one hand you have:
Degrading an image to reduce the appearance of noise.
And on the other hand you have:
Recovering information from an image degraded by noise.

I don't think Mr. Nattress or Mr. Jannard would degrade the image in order to reduce the appearance of noise, as is the case with most noise reduction tools. And because I believe that the noise on a chip that sits behind and OLPF sensor is a "special" situation I think they don't have to.

So yes it seems clear that the trade off of higher ISO is clarity (keep in mind this image is coming off a JPEG compressed for the web):
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1212283303.jpg

But one thing seems clear to me. It's the noise degrading the image not the noise reduction. This is not about loosing information, its about recovering information. And from what I'm seeing that recovery is pretty damn amazing.

Trading clarity for sensitivity. Sold.

IBloom

[Joseph Hutson]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic.jpg

Nice!

[Jannard]

Brothers?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic2.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_johnny5.jpg

[10s]

Is that the new RED Stereo Vision camera? Hmmm, I've heard about it.

I'll order one, & when I get mine, I'll name it, Johnny 5. ;)

[Steve Gibby]

As a guy not directly involved in firmware development, let me just tell you how hard Graeme, Jim, Deanan, Jarred, Matt, Rob, etc. have been working here at RED on Build 16. The fruits of their labor has all of us at RED amazed at these images just like you are.

Proud to be part of the RED team,
BC

That's some seriously cool Build 16 results RED Team...thanks for all your hard work...its deeply appreciated. You guys unbelievably rock...

I'm way proud to be a RED customer. Hindsight is 20/20, but as the months and years go by, I'm more and more glad I embraced RED way back in mid-2005 when Jim first explained his dream to me. It was the best professional move I've made in a 30-year career in this industry. I mean that...

[Joseph Hutson]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_johnny5.jpg

WALL-E!!!

[Trevor Meier]

Brothers?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic2.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_johnny5.jpg

YES!!! Johnny5 makes a comeback...

[Mitch Gross]

Jendra - WRONG Mark - this is Mark Pedersen - I am Mark Pederson - it's okay - you have no idea how many funny stories there are about the mistaken identities of the two Marks!!!

I always have to pause a moment whenever either Mark calls me. I won't tell either of you the fairly long phone call we had that I realized was the OTHER Mark only at the very end!

[Mark Pedersen]

I always have to pause a moment whenever either Mark calls me. I won't tell either of you the fairly long phone call we had that I realized was the OTHER Mark only at the very end!

Not to mention the mixed up tracking numbers and invoices... from numerous unmentioned vendors... geeze!

I'd like to take this opportunity to declare, once and for all, that I will no longer accept being referred to as the "OTHER" Mark Pedersen ;)

>M

[Mitch Gross]

I'd like to take this opportunity to declare, once and for all that I will no longer accept being referred to as the "OTHER" Mark Pedersen ;)


The joke is that we refer to both of you that way!

[Mark Pedersen]

OK, I feel so much better.

"WRONG Mark - this is Mark Pedersen - I am Mark Pederson"

Starting to sound like a movie... "I'm Spartacus.... No, I'm Spartacus!..."

M

[Jendra]

I'd like to take this opportunity to declare, once and for all, that I will no longer accept being referred to as the "OTHER" Mark Pedersen ;)

>M

Well, I know two others in the film business besides the two of you.
Mark Petersson, the DP who does a lot of doc TV (Nat Geo & the like) who I know personally and then there's Mark Pederson the OTHER DP, and the OTHER producer? I think one of those two is Peterson. Are you one of those? There are over twenty iterations on imdb.

[Shawn Nelson]

That belief has had me on a self-induced knowledge-building merry-go-round the last two years, and I must admit I've gotten a little dizzy. Technology is changing so much, that DPs now have to spend a lot more time than they used to learning about technology.

Being a cinematographer is 1/3 technical, 1/3 artistic and 1/3 managerial.

I know a lot of people who forget about developing the other 2/3rds. (This winter, I got bored of the merry-go-round and I took a leadership course and went to a bunch of museums and gallery shows. Now I'm longing to dig into my new "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" book!)

It's been in about the last 6 months that I've realized how out-of-balance I've been feeling about my craft. There's no end to how much there is to know, and it's an easy trap to get caught in, thinking you need to know everything. I became a DP because art, image-making and storytelling inspire me, not because I was interested in being a technologist. As I'm being invited on more & more speaking engagements to share my knowledge, lecture about digital cinema etc., I'm realizing more and more that I'd much rather be known for my talent and the quality of my work than for how much I know about pixels, bit-depth, and the MTF of the OLPF!

Great thoughts Jendra. It is such a balance, but one that so few people even attempt. I tend to mostly see the artists who think they are above knowing the tech or the guys that think it's all tech. It's refreshing to see those that recognize the Da Vinci like need for completeness. A Renaissance Woman you are :-)

[David Mullen ASC]

As a cinematographer, I often have to remind myself basically (as I work these long hours) why I got into this business -- because I love movies, I love lighting, I love to create images that tell stories and move people. It's important to not put the cart before the horse and think that it's about the tools first and what you do with them second. You need both of course, the technical skill and the artistry, but honestly, what makes up a great cinematic moment in a movie is often much more based on the artistry of the people involved than the particular tool they used to create that moment.

Besides, the best cinematography tool you have are your EYES, so learn to use those above all else...

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

As a cinematographer, I often have to remind myself basically (as I work these long hours) why I got into this business -- because I love movies, I love lighting, I love to create images that tell stories and move people. It's important to not put the cart before the horse and think that it's about the tools first and what you do with them second. You need both of course, the technical skill and the artistry, but honestly, what makes up a great cinematic moment in a movie is often much more based on the artistry of the people involved than the particular tool they used to create that moment.

Besides, the best cinematography tool you have are your EYES, so learn to use those above all else...

I'll just open a word document and save whatever you say Mr. David.

:biggrin:


Just as I expected, I might be able to get all the grain I need just by playing with processing... beautiful.

Now I understand why this mythical build16 was delayed for so long.

Oh, early'09 seems DECADES away... :waaa:

I hope you're saving cash and not buying every week a new mel gibson poster.

[Bang WOW Bang]

As a cinematographer, I often have to remind myself basically (as I work these long hours) why I got into this business -- because I love movies, I love lighting, I love to create images that tell stories and move people. It's important to not put the cart before the horse and think that it's about the tools first and what you do with them second. You need both of course, the technical skill and the artistry, but honestly, what makes up a great cinematic moment in a movie is often much more based on the artistry of the people involved than the particular tool they used to create that moment.

Besides, the best cinematography tool you have are your EYES, so learn to use those above all else...

That 's why we all got RED Eyes though.

Warmest regards to all RED shooters.

Stewart
Founder and TOP
REDHKSC
HKG -CHINA

[Casey Green]

Brothers?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic2.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_johnny5.jpg

No disassemble Johnny 5!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Brothers?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_arcoepic2.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_johnny5.jpg



Input. I need more input!


Preferably in RedCode RAW. :clown2:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

As a cinematographer, I often have to remind myself basically (as I work these long hours) why I got into this business -- because I love movies, I love lighting, I love to create images that tell stories and move people.


Amen.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I hope you're saving cash and not buying every week a new mel gibson poster.


Only on special occasions. :holloween:

I am also a big fan of this guy:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/3438_1212310768.gif

[Jason Sinclair]

Besides, the best cinematography tool you have are your EYES, so learn to use those above all else...

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it truly is, infinite."

-William Blake
"

[Mark L. Pederson]

Well, I know two others in the film business besides the two of you.
Mark Petersson, the DP who does a lot of doc TV (Nat Geo & the like) who I know personally and then there's Mark Pederson the OTHER DP, and the OTHER producer? I think one of those two is Peterson. Are you one of those? There are over twenty iterations on imdb.

I always go by Mark "L." Pederson to try to avoid the confusion - I actually now just announce myself on calls as "Mark from Offhollywood."

[Steve Gibby]

Artist, techie, manager, journalist
In my opinion today’s motion media professionals need to develop themselves to a high balance of all of these knowledge divisions. We’re artists, so if we’re on the creative end of the business, that’s the starting point for everything else. It’s increasingly a technological business, so a facile knowledge of current and breaking technology is a must. This is a business, plain and simple. Learning to manage our end of the business, no matter how large or small is critical to our professional survival. We’re storytellers, thus developing journalistic and creative writing skills is critical, whether its to evaluate the writing of others around us, to write proposals and abstracts, or to script productions. No matter what our niche, job description, or multiples thereof, achieving a balanced blend of artist, techie, manager, and journalist is critical to our professional growth and sustainability. No matter what your job classification (or multiple jobs for non-union people) in this industry, a high balance of ATMJ (see above) will seriously enhance your career.

The four T’s : talent, training, technology, tenacity
We’re born with talent. Some maximize their limited talents and achieve great success. Others squander their great talents and go nowhere. What we do with our talents is up to us. Training is something everyone can seek if they want. The experience to overlay with our talents is critical. Raw talent must be tempered with training in order to be maximized. Technology opens doors to new options for everything from acquisition to post to projection. Talent being a given, training and experience using new technology enables us to compete with our peers. Tenacity and perseverance are a choice. A solid career in this industry is always built and maintained on a foundation of tenacity. No matter what your job classification (or multiple jobs for non-union people) in this industry, a high balance of the Four T’s will seriously enhance your career.

Left brains, mid brains, and right brains
We’re born with what we’re born with. In simple terms, here’s how each operates: Left brainers are pragmatic and logical. Mid brainers migrate at will from left brain logic to right brain artistry. Right brainers are artistic. There’s a niche for all these types in the motion media industry. Left brainers do best at the business end of this business: accountants, attorneys, general managers, etc. Mid brainers have a wider latitude of job choice in this industry, depending on which brain lobe they want to operate in the most – they usually seek to work at multiple job classifications. Right brainers tend to stick to the creative end of the business only: cinematographers, writers, editors. What are you? If you find yourself trying to fit a proverbial square peg in a round hole wisdom dictates a re-evaluation of your brain type and re-training into something more suitable for you.

Darwinian Natural Selection
In the natural world, individuals and species that don’t adapt to changing conditions program themselves for individual elimination and/or group extinction. Yes, this principle applies to the motion media business. There’s a constant shakeout of individuals (and in some cases whole groups) in this industry. Evolving to changing conditions is critical to our professional survival. An ostrich head in the sand act won’t head off the onslaught of change. Yes, art is art, but the ways of doing art, and the tools available for it inevitably evolve. By refusing to evolve with the industry we run the serious risk of programming ourselves for individual elimination from this business. Certainly tradition should be honored, and applicable knowledge be carried forward – but nobody has ever really “arrived”. If we think we have all the answers we’ve just taken our first step onto thin ice. How long can you tread water?

Putting the above in context
When I stated earlier in this thread that my decision to adopt RED was the most important decision in my career, I meant that in a professional sense. My career has been non-union by choice, thus I’ve worked (and do now) in a wide range of jobs in this industry, including cinematographer, DP, scriptwriter, editor, director, producer, and executive producer. As a cinematographer I’m very happy with having my new RED tool in my kit. That’s not to say I don’t still use other tools. As a DP, RED gives me another good choice for certain productions. As and editor, even though the post workflow is more circuitous, the RED images are stellar. As a director I love having a small, mobile DC camera that will give me S35 DOF and is affordable enough to have multiples of them on a production. As a producer handling budgets and making projects “fly”, RED ONE gives me an affordable but very capable camera system which makes sense to own rather than just rent.

Final thoughts
Handing someone a paintbrush doesn’t make them Picasso. Handing someone a pen doesn’t make them Shakespeare. Handing someone a RED ONE camera doesn’t make them Haskell Wexler. But RED ONE is a “game changer” on multiple levels of the motion media industry – thus IMO my adoption of RED was a pivotal point in my career. Some may say “But it’s just a camera”, but I’d say to them “No, it is a game changer, being followed up by other game changers from the same company”. Being in early (RED #8 and London), and acquiring multiple other RED cameras since, has opened significant professional doors for me, and continues to do so. Basically all of my current key alliances and productions grew directly from my adoption of RED. Professional life is full of choices – and we either enjoy or suffer from the choices we make. I’ve always believed that someone should choose their occupation based on what they love to do. If they do it well enough for long enough, money will take care of itself. But that love should be tempered with the realities of their chosen workspace – many of which I’ve illustrated in this post.

Build 16 looks like it will rock…thanks RED…

[Rudi Herbert]

...and he is back in fine form! Amen to that Brother Gibby!

[Uli Plank]

Excellent text, I'll make my students write it 100 times ;-)

Regards,

Uli

[Joseph Hutson]

Excellent text, I'll make my students write it 100 times ;-)

Regards,

Uli

Thank God I am not your student.

[number6]

That post #225 of Gibby's was very Clair de Lune for me. And the best part was, I could find nothing in it that I disagree with!:biggrin: So, might as well close this thread because his post pretty well sums it all up.

edit: Just to be clear, I don't think I could ever master what he described, but I certainly admire that type of approach.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna like do the evolution and get a RED.

Take no prizonerrrrz!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Gibby thanks.

Well-written.

[Ben Staley]

Gibby,
Mullens,
Gracias..

[Mark K.]

I'm confused, how do you adjust the actual sensitivity of the camera? My understanding was that ISO on the Red One was simply metadata.

[jimhare]

You don't. You need to expose properly for your desired ISO and dial it up in Redcine/ALERT. Nothing in camera, except for monitoring.

[purefilm]

I am really amazed with the work RED has done, and i can not wait for the next round. Build 16 looks great, but lets see some moving picture.

[David Birdy]

SWEET 16 !!!

[Michael Brennan]

Best way to see the improvement is to shoot build 15 beside build 16 under same lighting and lens ect.

Any chance?


Mike Brennan

[Joseph Hutson]

I am really amazed with the work RED has done, and i can not wait for the next round. Build 16 looks great, but lets see some moving picture.

Congrats on your new title! 100th post :-)

Have you seen the Lamborghini? That was a moving picture.

[Jannard]

Best way to see the improvement is to shoot build 15 beside build 16 under same lighting and lens ect.

Any chance?


Mike Brennan

We are pretty busy to handle every request. I can't switch my camera back to Build 15 and I'm not at the office. We have done it many times (files are somewhere) but you'll just need to trust us for now, and the posts from the Alpha testers, that it is a marked improvement. It won't be long when you can do your own tests.

Jim

[cinepost35]

Are things still looking good for possible beta release at the end of this week Jim ? (Not holding you or the rest of the Red Team to it)

[Shawn Nelson]

Someone else brought this post up in a different thread. Jim, what denoiser were you using on the pics in post 1 of this thread? I can't get my Build 18 footage to look as good as your ISO 1000-2000 stuff, much grainer. Not at ALL suggesting you weren't being straightforward (since you never posted that denoising techniques werent being used), just saying I'm ignorant of the secret sauce you used to get it and I was wondering if you'd post your preferred method.

[Shawn Nelson]

EDIT: So i just re-read your original post, and it seems you did state that you made no adjustments. Hmmm, then what I am doing wrong that my footage looks so grainy at above 1000 ISO?

When you said "each one adjusted 1/3rd stop to match the corresponding ISO.", what does that mean? Meaning you were stopping down the lens as you bumped the ISO?

[Jannard]

EDIT: So i just re-read your original post, and it seems you did state that you made no adjustments. Hmmm, then what I am doing wrong that my footage looks so grainy at above 1000 ISO?

When you said "each one adjusted 1/3rd stop to match the corresponding ISO.", what does that mean? Meaning you were stopping down the lens as you bumped the ISO?

Make a similar setup. Use daylight (tungsten does not yield the same results for obvious reasons). Stop down your lens as you raise ISO. Use curves to match outputs as needed. Nothing else. Just make SURE your original exposure is NOT under-exposed. That is usually the killer.

I have done this a number of times and get the same results with different setups. No de-noise used.

If your exposure is right and you are getting different results (more noise) the other culprit is usually that your low light condition is not "daylight balanced".

Jim

[J Davis]

9_queens
that made me smile