2K Scan Going Rate?

[Manfred Lopez]

Does anyone know what the current going rate is for a 2K scan of a film neg(Images delivered as data on hard drives)? I'm trying to analyze the costs of the DI followed on "Chasing Ghosts".


1. Shoot Super 35mm stock
2. One-light telecine to DVCAM at Entertainment Post (Burbank, CA)
3. Creative edit in Final Cut Pro with AJA Kona 2 card for playback
4. Scan at 2K on Imagica Imager XE at Lowry Digital Images ( Burbank, CA)
5. Make 2K files using G-RAID 800 FireWire drives
6. Dust-busting, FX and compositing in Apple Shake
7. Files stored and served from Xserve RAID. Color-correct and crop image to 2.35:1 in Silicon Color FinalTouch 2K
8. Anamorphic squeeze in Shake
9. Film out at 2K in ArriLaser film recorder at CFI ( Burbank, CA)



http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/tools/otherways/4490.html

[Ken Corben]

In your neck of the woods here is one source for a price quote:

http://www.efilm.com/contact.php

[Manfred Lopez]

Thanks, on monday I will start calling around. But I was wondering if anyone knew off hand what the going rate is. I am trying to analyze the real cost difference between shooting 35 film and shooting Red. The 'problem' with Red is archiving the digital footage... but that's another topic. Right now I just need the going rate for a 2K film scan... Can anyone help?

[donatello b]

anywhere from 4K to 60K ...

friend just had a 35mm IP (feature) 2k scanned at Pixel Harvest in LA area - under $5k ...

i've used them for 16mm 2k scans on 2 shorts - good price ..

http://www.pixelharvest.com/

[Manfred Lopez]

anywhere from 4K to 60K ...

friend just had a 35mm IP (feature) 2k scanned at Pixel Harvest in LA area - under $5k ...

i've used them for 16mm 2k scans on 2 shorts - good price ..

http://www.pixelharvest.com/

What!!! only 5,000 dollars for a feature :w00t: Five cents a frame?!? Just a few years it used to be like 2 dollars a frame. Thanks Donatello. This is exactly what I was looking for. With these prices shooting on film and doing a DIY DI on a mac is becoming very attractive. By the way, where you happy with the quality of the scans?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It's usually about $500 an hour (of lab time not footage). The faster their scanner, the better in such situations.

[Manfred Lopez]

It's usually about $500 an hour (of lab time not footage). The faster their scanner, the better in such situations.

Is this right? Is this for pin-registered scanning, like with an Arri Scan? Let me see if I've got this right:


92 min feature = 3,312 feet of film (s16mm) = 132,480 frames @ 4 frames per second (average scan time, ArriScan w Speed Pack) = 33,120 seconds of machine operation = 552 min = 9.2 hours x $500 per hour = $4,600 x 3 because as an average it takes them 3 times the running length of the footage to set it up and run it = $13,800...


Is this correct?

[Manfred Lopez]

By the way, as an exercise in futility I am trying to figure out if I can pay for negative, developing, scanning, etc. of a 92 min feature for the same price as purchasing a Red camera & accesories... and end up in the same place (2k images inside my mac). I already own a film camera and cine lenses.

[donatello b]

i'm happy with the 2 16mm shorts i had 2k scanned ...

i haven't seen my friends feature he had scanned - i did see the TEST scans ( 30 sec ) that Pixel did off the IP and it looked good .. the feature was shot 10 years ago on 16mm & was blown up to 35mm - so this was a 2k scan off the 92min 35mm IP ..
in May i'll be going in to supervise a little CC on it for digital projection files.
i think it will be playing on Saturdays midnight show at the Sunset 5 (LA) theater this summer

the more feet you have scanned = the lower per frame

Pixel Harvest did the scan for Dust to Glory few years ago .. the post workflow was in one of the monthly mags ? that was scanned then Pixel outputted to cineform files and it was editied in premiere with prospect 2k ...
if i remember correctly Pixel scans at 3k then they out put to whatever files you want at 2k

call/email Pixel - tell them a little about your project and see what rate you can work out with them ...

[Tom Lowe]

Wow I notice that pixelharvest's site says: "Filmout service offered very soon"...

I wonder what kinds of rates they will offer for Cineform 2K out to 35mm??

This might be a cheap solution for my 2K short I plan to shoot this summer, so I can submit it as 35mm to fests.

[Michael Schrengohst]

By the way, as an exercise in futility I am trying to figure out if I can pay for negative, developing, scanning, etc. of a 92 min feature for the same price as purchasing a Red camera & accesories... and end up in the same place (2k images inside my mac). I already own a film camera and cine lenses.

You also have to consider audio. You could always sync the audio yourself with the MAC. Shooting on film means a dedicated audio cart. You might come close to the cost of a RED. But if you paid for the RED you are ready for the next film without the expense.

[goldyprog]

I would advise to watch out-- depending on the film recorders, film scanners and personnel working on any stage of DI. 2K+ scans are often done on Spirit systems and not on pin-registered systems, as they take far less time by running anywhere from 3-8 fps. For a film-out, I would advise to stick with a place that uses Arri, just to be conservative-- otherwise, you may find a place offering film recording on another system at a faster and hence cheaper rate but the film-out's negative when processed and printed can look noticeably different. I mention Arri because that is a useable norm in the industry but at the same time am not demoting anything else-- you may get the same (or even superior) quality from a place that uses a different recorder, but it's just to be on the safe side.

Although Pin-registered scans are theoretically superior in image quality to non-pin-registered, more and more features these days are being run through Spirits as it is faster, and often DI quotes are not specific enough to describe what is involved-- some steps are often left out of the quote, and I myself would certainly be weary of the legitimacy and outcome of a ~$5K DI.

[Mark L. Pederson]

The devil is in the details.

Pin registered 2K scanning (with a true 2K + sensor) for a feature is approx. $20K - some places much higher -

Be careful that you are in fact scanning with 2K+ sensor - there are older versions of the Spirit with a 2K upgrade board - and it is in fact an HD image UPRESSED to 2K - so, again, the devil is in the details -

There are some smaller companies who are very competitve - In LA I would recommend TUNNEL POST -

[David Newman]

Pixel Harvest did the scan for Dust to Glory few years ago .. the post workflow was in one of the monthly mags ? that was scanned then Pixel outputted to cineform files and it was editied in premiere with prospect 2k ...
if i remember correctly Pixel scans at 3k then they out put to whatever files you want at 2k


Pixel Harvest is an excellent solution, very inexpensive without compromising on quality. Pixel Harvest does scan to CineForm AVI (soon MOVs) and they did this on Lbs ("pounds") and not Dust to Glory, which was scanned at LaserPacific, again compressed into CineForm. It will cost more to do it at Laser. Both the Dust to Glory and Lbs workflows were written up in Post magazine.

David
blog : http://cineform.blogspot.com

[Thomas Mathai]

I would advise to watch out-- depending on the film recorders, film scanners and personnel working on any stage of DI. 2K+ scans are often done on Spirit systems and not on pin-registered systems, as they take far less time by running anywhere from 3-8 fps. For a film-out, I would advise to stick with a place that uses Arri, just to be conservative-- otherwise, you may find a place offering film recording on another system at a faster and hence cheaper rate but the film-out's negative when processed and printed can look noticeably different. I mention Arri because that is a useable norm in the industry but at the same time am not demoting anything else-- you may get the same (or even superior) quality from a place that uses a different recorder, but it's just to be on the safe side.

Although Pin-registered scans are theoretically superior in image quality to non-pin-registered, more and more features these days are being run through Spirits as it is faster, and often DI quotes are not specific enough to describe what is involved-- some steps are often left out of the quote, and I myself would certainly be weary of the legitimacy and outcome of a ~$5K DI.

Nowadays you can stabilize non-pin registered footage as needed. Assuming every shot in the film is going to go through some sort of digital tweeking, you can just add a stablization pass.

[Peter McCully]

I agree with Goldyprog. Skimping at the scanning stage is a false economy. But the advantages of Red surely go beyond just a play-off between scanning and the cost of a Red setup. I don't need to list them here but to mention a few.. Imediate access to the shot material, on set inspection in hi-def. Lack of film grain (it can be added later) 4k Raw, (4k scanning costs?) etc. Also, archiving the DI material is as much an issue as archiving Red not to mention storing negatives in controlled environments. Just get Red....

[Manfred Lopez]

Just get Red....

Yes, I plan on getting one eventually; but we start shooting in the first week of october, maybe even september, and I know that Red won't be ready for delivery by then (for those who don't have a reservation yet).

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yes, I plan on getting one eventually; but we start shooting in the first week of october, maybe even september, and I know that Red won't be ready for delivery by then (for those who don't have a reservation yet).

The big question is: Do you have distribution? Dropping any money - especially your own is always a risk. That is what is so attractive
about the RED. You can produce spec projects without
taking a 2nd mortgage on your house.

[Bruce Allen]

TheThe, I'd say that, modified with the advice here, your film workflow sounds very good. I love Red, but seriously, if your script is good and your DP is more comfortable with film, why not just go the cheap 35mm + DI route?

Of course if you intend on doing TV / commercials / music videos / internet stuff as well, then Red makes total sense. Also, if you like the immediacy of digital, Red is great for that too.

I'm interested in Red because I do a ton of visual effects and also do music videos, which require a stupidly short turnaround. A day or two saved by not having to go through the film developing / scanning process would be huge, plus we often don't have time / budget to go back and re-scan things - we just get a reasonable-looking first light onto DigiBeta and roll straight to CC from that. Also, our clients often want changes done at the last minute, so it would be great having everything we shot at full online quality.

Getting back to features, RedGuy, I totally agree - distribution is key. Ditto on it being a big risk to drop your own money on a film project. It's also not a good sign if you haven't been able to convince investors because then either you are an undiscovered / misunderstood genius (very possible) or else (more scarily) you just don't have a compelling script and vision for the movie and the investors can sense this.

The scary part with 21st century filmmaking is that people trying to break into the industry used to have a chance to make one or maybe two films on their own, max. After that, they were broke. The good filmmakers were sometimes discovered and the ones who weren't good or weren't lucky went and found other careers.

Now you're going to have people saying "I bought this camera, I don't care if I suck, I spent a ton of money on this and I'm just going to keep on making features - it doesn't cost me anything now." So now you're competing for a slot in festivals and low-end distribution channels with a crowded horde of Used-To-Be-Rich Talent-Less Boys' 10th and 11th films. Locations get more expensive for first-time filmmakers to get access to locations because some idiot stomping around making his 27th movie on a Red "for free" went around trashing the place, actors start charging more, etc.

I think this is why LA is in strange ways an unforgiving place for first-time filmmakers - everyone here has been burned by some scummy person using up favors trying to make a film "for free". The climate towards ALL indies becomes more bitter. The same could be said for DV, except with DV, everyone was broke, which made it fun. With Red, everyone is still broke, except for one guy - the dude with the 40k camera package expecting you to work for free. Not cool.

Of course, this is all relative. I work in a trailer company and we see early cuts of many movies. A lot of them really, really suck too! Then the studio pours in money and does re-shoots, vfx, etc. and it comes out the end actually looking decent. With Red, indies can do the same thing.

In summary, if you're only into making good features, I'd say look at film. If you're interested in making music videos, commercials, internet stuff, TV documentaries, shooting stock footage, etc, then go with Red. Also go Red if you plan on shooting many films, all of which have no production value and which use people for free, and especially if your films suck, because then if nobody notices you and gives you funding, you can just start making another really cheaply. But I'm sure you won't do that.

Good luck and give me a shout if you need help with a distribution trailer.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[goldyprog]

Not to turn people in different directions from Red, but perhaps now (during the waiting period for Red) it may be wise, if you have the opportunity, to take a look at some other digital cinematography cameras-- not only to see what they are like, but also what it is like to shoot digitally and tapeless on a pro 2K+ camera. There are at least 5 that I can think of right now that are currently available to shoot on via hard drives-- of those I believe 4 can shoot 2K or higher. Perhaps, if you have something to shoot before Red comes out, you can shoot on one of these cameras and at the same time "test" or "acclamate" yourself to shooting digitally.

[donatello b]

2k scan at $60k or $5k ...
you have to work within your budget ...
$60k scan doesn't mean it is 12x better then the $5k - and infact that 60k just might be as good as the 5k or not !

RED at $18k or sony F23 at 150k, cinealta 950 at 100k+ ?????????????
how many here are ordering sony ?

do a 2k test scan on spirit and 2k test scan at 1-2 other places then decide which looks best for your project & wallet.
if you don't have 60k then you go with a different transfer ...

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Recently I compared a Spirit @ 2K V Arriscan 3k downsized to 2K & 6K downsized to 4K.

The Arriscans were way better with extra dynamic range, no weave. Given a budget I would go 4K Arriscans any day.

Stephen

[Eric Jones]

I personally can vouch for Pixel Harvest. I have just finished up a 1200 shot (144,000 frames) feature DI and compared some different vendors and scanners. The scanner at Pixel Harvest is pin-registered and of equal quality to the higher priced offerings. It also has IR dust and dirt removal which was a life saver on this particular job. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

Eric Jones

[Manfred Lopez]

I personally can vouch for Pixel Harvest. ...

Eric Jones

This is great to hear, Eric. We are getting closer to the time of deciding the whole DI route. We want to make it work around Apple's new Color app. But we have to do some testing first.

I wonder how long until someone from this forum with coloring experience can comment on using Color instead of high-end dedicated suites.

[mezmo]

Hi The The,
You can Datacine/Scan with the 4K Spiit using HSDL to a portable DDR
and take the data home to the Mac and LARGE disk array.
The Spirit needs appropriate boards for this type of DPX file creation.
I think the frame rate is about 15 FPS and the machine is set up for a
tecnicial grade with minor adjustments chasing levels.
You could Datacine the whole film this way as the work is usually done at night and doesn't involve any color correction staff. Also saves a Neg Cut.
Something like the Kona 3 should give you a proxy HD file from the Dpx to
color space convert/correct in COLOR and edit in a HD codec.
For film out i'd suggest a professional solution as FCP can't handle 2K transitions and gading for film requires a close relationship with labs.
Test strips from all major scenes need to be burned printed and screened
to be sure your heading in the right direction with LUTs and the like.
An even cheaper solution would be to drag your Mac/Kona and array into
the post facility and test the whole idea .
This workflow would allow you to produce a pretty cool HD compiled and
graded master of the film for early screenings and compile the cuts only
DPX material in FCP for final compile and a film out grade in IQ/Scratch/ Lustre ect.
I plan to mess with this somtime soon myself so I'll keep you posted.
Cheers Mezmo

[Manfred Lopez]

Thanks Mezmo for the informative post. I would be very interested in your final approach. We have also been talking to Laser Pasific, who offer something called the "Indie DI". It is cheap but the down side seems to be that they use HDCam SR as the delivery method, which is not quite 2K. But who knows, they say it is very close to full 2k quality... and after all they are the invetors of HD itself so they probably know what they are talking about.

Anyway, I'll price out your method to see what is involved. Our goal is to arrive at a digital version of the film. Film Out would only be done if there is interest in theatrical distribution. I don't see the point in paying for a print before hand. Most aquisition execs watch movies through screeners and most festivals now have digital projection anyway.


EDIT: Post Corrected.

[Michael Schrengohst]

BetaSP is not even close to HD much less 2K. BetaSP is 720x486 pixels.
If you went with a letterbox on BetaSp your vertical res is more like 360.
I would at least go HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.

[David Mullen ASC]

Thanks Mezmo for the informative post. I would be very interested in your final approach. We have also been talking to Laser Pasific, who offer something called the "Indie DI". It is cheap but the down side seems to be that they use Beta SP as the delivery method, which is not quite 2K. .

LaserPacific uses HDCAM-SR instead of 2K for their "Indie D.I." -- not analog standard-def beta-SP. HDCAM-SR is 4:4:4 10-bit Log 1920 x 1080, mildly compressed -- so is not far below 2K, which is 2048 across, 10-bit Log RGB, uncompressed.

[Manfred Lopez]

Oops, my bad. I meant HDCam SR in 2x mode at 1920x1080 with a bitrate of 880 Mbit/s and 4:4:4 color space (thank you wikipedia). By the way, here is a link to a PDF explinig the InDI process from laser pacific. On page four or something it has a worfflow diagram.

http://www.laserpacific.com/pdf/LaserPacific_inDI_v2.pdf

And here is a 56 page white paper on the whole post process. Very thorough and usefull for those who need a primer on all the stages involved.

http://www.laserpacific.com/pdf/Post_Production2.pdf


EDIT:

It looks like, as always, David is right on top of things and has beaten me to my own correction (Damn you Wikipedia for making me waste time :biggrin: ). Anyway, thanks David.

[Michael Schrengohst]

That sounds more like it!

[mezmo]

Hi The The,
Just finishing a Super 16 feature using the "Indie DI" Sony SR
444 Log Tape /Davinchi/Truelight setup.
Got to say I've had better results from an Optical Blow-up to 35.
Some clipping of whites and obvious noise are a problem in some scenes.
They may have to be scanned and finished 2K.
16mm film grain and the SR compression system may be the problem here.
A friend doing a 35 3perf feature has had better results with the SR workflow. I think "Kill Bill" was done this way too.
Weta and other post houses suggest scanning/ datacine to 2K for all
super 16 work.
My S16 project required a Doco look for a lot of the footage so the "Indie
DI" worked fine for about 90% of the film and saved a lot of money.
The next project requied a more produced look, and needs to be shot well before Red hits the decks.
Hence the interest in the Datacine2K, FCP, COLOR workflow.
It's Super 16 again and the budget is low, so any way to save money
and get the best possible results using new tech are welcomed by the
producers.
The "Indie DI" SR log tape workflow sounds fine for you and your 35mm
project. If there is a slim chance of Theatrical,then all deliverables can be
derived from the Master Graded Log Tape, including Film Out if necessary.
Mezmo

[Tom Tomlinson]

Hi The The,
You can Datacine/Scan with the 4K Spiit using HSDL to a portable DDR
and take the data home to the Mac and LARGE disk array.
The Spirit needs appropriate boards for this type of DPX file creation.
I think the frame rate is about 15 FPS and the machine is set up for a
tecnicial grade with minor adjustments chasing levels.
You could Datacine the whole film this way as the work is usually done at night and doesn't involve any color correction staff. Cheers Mezmo

They only support hippi (5 fps 2k) & GSN hi speed data (24 fps 2k or 6fps 4k).

[mezmo]

Hi Celboy,
Yes thanks for the correction,I got my notes out and it would be a Cintel
box for the 2048x1556 @ 15 FPS. Sorry The The for the Bum Steer.
Somthing like the Cintel Data Mill should do it.
HSDL is also supported by AJA, Autodesk,Blackmagic,Bluefish,DaVinci,
Datavision,Nucoder,DVS(Megacine portable DDR)Max Thruput,Omnitel &
Quantel.
Early days for me on this stuff,please feel free to correct.Will do more research.
Cheers Mezmo