Prepare...

[Jannard]

... for a new camera. At no extra charge.

Build 16 is like buying a new camera without going to the store, making a phone call, or placing and order online and waiting for FedEx to show up at your door.

We have all but solved to most difficult problems that have been plaguing us the last mile of this build. We are repackaging it for quick Alpha testing... then Beta.

The 1st thing that will strike you is REDspace. While you can "do it the old way", I recommend that you test REDspace before you do anything else. Your camera will default to REDspace. You will be surprised that the monitor looks like your scene and matches your meter and histogram at the same time. You will feel a confidence in exposure that you have not felt before.

You can now shoot many ISOs with confidence. Shoot ISO 320 for the cleanest image you can ever imagine in good light. ISO 500 should be your "standard" rating. We will put the RED ONE and Build 16 up against any 12 MP DSLR... side by side tests coming soon. Shoot ISO 125 if you are so inclined. Or ISO 1000. They all match color and gamma. Noise goes from none (literally) to good.

Your files (yes 4K 16:9) will open in RED Alert! (first app to support B16) and... the images look incredible. Just like you saw in the monitor. They will look cleaner (because they are) and you will shake your head. I am sure of it. That's what we did.

Shoot tungsten. You will be shocked at the improvement.

Welcome to Build 16. It is a new experience. At no extra charge. At a download near you.

Jim

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm ready!

[Tim Bradley]

Thank you ... sounds like fun ahead !

[Rudi Herbert]

It's good to see you so happy Jim, one of those moments where I'm sure you feel it was all worth it. Good for you and your people man!

[wshultz]

Can't wait. Christmas in June?

[Jannard]

Here is the blue channel of a 100% crop at ISO 320. Sorry about jpeg artifacts...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_320bluex.jpg

[jimhare]

That's why I love living in Australia, we get all the cool, U.S. late night posts while we're still awake!

Great news!

[Álex Montoya]

Jim, is the next batch of cameras bringing B16 by default? I'm making the payment tomorrow and I can't wait.

[Jannard]

Is the next batch of cameras bringing B16 by default? Jim, I can't wait.

Cameras will be loaded with Build 16 as soon as it comes out of Beta.

Jim

[Deanan]

The latest builds get shipped on cameras by default after coming out of beta.

[Deanan]

Jim's too dang fast at replying. He beat me to it.

[Brandon Fraley]

Jim you are a hype GOD! and I love it! :) can't wait for my camera to get here ASAP!

[Jannard]

I am extremely happy... with the Build 16 team. Graeme, Deanan, Rob, Stuart, Jarred, Matt B., and Rich. Everyone has made important contributions to this difficult undertaking.

Jim

[Clay Morrison]

Sounds great Jim. Looking forward to Build 16. Any idea when we'll be able to open 4K 16:9 in Quicktime?

[Ed Watkins]

Wow.. the blue channel looks clean! Great news.

[Jannard]

Sounds great Jim. Looking forward to Build 16. Any idea when we'll be able to open 4K 16:9 in Quicktime?

With Build 16.

Jim

[Clay Morrison]

With Build 16.

Jim

Terrific. This build is just getting better and better...

[Daniel Browning]

Here is the blue channel of a 100% crop at ISO 320.

Keep in mind, everyone, that 100% crops of a 4K camera should not be compared with 100% crops of a lower-resolution (e.g. 1920x1080) camera without first correctly resampling them to the same resolution (or output size).

[Warren Kommers]

Can't Wait! I knew there was more in a sensor of that size. I'm so happy about the new possibilities in low tungsten light. Thanks for working so hard guys.

Does the 16:9 seem to hold up better in extreme detail shots in camera as well as being supported in post?

Does Red Alert 16:9 support also mean that the Quicktime support is right behind it?

Will 16:9 build 15 open in new Red Alert?

[Mark Pedersen]

STOKED!!

Thanks Jim. Can't wait.

M

[johannperry]

A great bit of news to wake up to in London this morning. This new build is quite simply a towering achievement. Amazing work.
I'm very excited about the low light capabilities and can't wait to get my camera to start working with B16.

[hunterrichards]

Bring it!

[Jan Reiff]

awesome news. we are starting a shoot today i hoped early this year to shoot especially this project on red because of a huge amount of landscape-shots, and it´s a kind of pain when i think, it´s not shot on red now. i am in the 2000-2400´s, ... and with this news, waiting turns into a real experience to learn the meaning of patience.
feeling like a little boy waiting for christmas.
build 16 is the summer hit

[Joel Kaye]

Here is the blue channel of a 100% crop at ISO 320. Sorry about jpeg artifacts...


Looks like bluescreen keys just got a lot more friendly. This is going to be a fun build to shoot.

[Trevor Meier]

Happy 2000th post Jim :)

Looking forward to Build 16. I've spent a lot of time with DPs explaining the RAW process and how to confidently expose based on the current build... REDspace looks to make that part of my life much easier.

Now if only I could get R3D as a native Quicktime file... then I could cut the size of my on-set renderfarms in half :)

[Jarred Land]

Keep in mind, everyone, that 100% crops of a 4K camera should not be compared with 100% crops of a lower-resolution (e.g. 1920x1080) camera without first correctly resampling them to the same resolution (or output size).

and vise-versa.. :)

Thanks for pointing that out Daniel.. its one of those forgotten aspects.

If you take that 4k master and scale it down to 1080, alot of the noise thats left is going to be gobbled up from the scaling. :)

[Jannard]

Here is a 300% crop (???) from ISO 125 blue channel... maybe that is a crop from 300% scale??? whatever...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_125blue.jpg

[Sanjin Jukic]

Absolutely fantastic B16.

[Larry McKee]

I start shooting a feature on July 11. I am really hoping 16 will be available by then. We have a lot of night exteriors that would look a lot better on this new build.

Thanks, Jim and Team for the continuous tweaking.

[Jarred Land]

Im pretty impressed as well with all the "other" new stuff in build 16 that comes along with the image improvements. Features that before were a "paid" upgrade with other companies are being rolled into RED ONE by a downloadable upgrade for no cost to the customers that have gone along for the ride.

For example, the beloved DVX100, in my opinion a camera that also changed the industry as we knew it, went through several upgrades along it path, the 100, the 100a and the 100b. ( http://dvxuser.com/articles/100b/ ) .. most of those upgrades were software based, and all those upgrades required purchasing a brand new camera. Some of you were scared we would stop improving the RED ONE the day we announced EPIC.. when you see Build 16, those worries should subside.

[Gunleik Groven]

... I feel quite prepared... :)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Jesus,

never a doll moment on this forum, I leave for a moment and tone of S%$#@ happens, I know that we have to take literally Jim's everything in life changes ... quote, but I have just begin but to learn the essentials on the RED ONE, and I have been making some serious jaw drops round me, and now this, WOW!

Good thing that will be hiring serious DP's ... just kidding, this cameras can be used by a child, and infact on the last shoot a 9 year hold couldn't stop playing with it and I think bugging my DP a little, sorry Blair.:)


Congrats to all at RED and thank you for all the continuos hard work and incredible results.

ciao

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Jim & co...congrats.

[Pawel Achtel]

Jim, that's a very clean crop, remarkably clean! Well done!

[Jannard]

How about ISO 1000 blue channel at a 100% crop... let me remind you that nothing was done to these images except opened in RED Alert! and output to Photoshop. No noise reduction, sharpening or anything else.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1000blue.jpg

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's a good idea that the core software will be the same for all three cameras Scarlet, RED and Epic...

[Jannard]

And full color ISO 1000 at 100%...

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1000.jpg

[hunterrichards]

Is there an ETA for beta?

[jbeale]

It is quite impressive, you have good reason to be proud! I wish my DSLR was as good @ ISO 1000.

[Shawn Bannon]

oh man, alright i'm ready.

[Pawel Achtel]

And full color ISO 1000 at 100%...

Jim



First you made my HDCAM obsolete, and now my DSLR is outdated too :bleh:

[Casey Green]

bring on sweet 16!

[Martin Weiss]

Welcome to Build 16. (..) At a download near you.

You forgot to include the link! :bleh:

Great work (and you keep writing ISO 1000, when you clearly must have meant 320...) Impressive!

[Sanjin Jukic]

I'm sure with the sweet little B16 you can go even in a jungle and straight away shoot


the movies in available light like a Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Deer Hunter, etc.,...


without any fear...

[Alexander Nikishin]

Bring it on Jim.

[Alexis Vanier]

Mmmmm... the 1000ISO looks like the HVX-200 at 0db gain. :) Looovely.

[Michael LAGERWEY]

Cant' wait anymore... :love:
Quick Please !!

[Karl H]

I'm excited to test it (when I get my birger mount). Is it me or is there a slight halo around the blue channel now? Is that how you're reducing some of the noise, or am I seeing things that have always been in the blue channel?

either way it's surely an improvement, and i'm so happy about 16:9 quicktime.

are those images exported with some sharpening on them?

[Dan]

Jim that's great news - will RedCine be far behind RA in supporting B16? i'd hate to lose my Crimson Workflow.

Dan

[Häakon]

Jim that's great news - will RedCine be far behind RA in supporting B16? i'd hate to lose my Crimson Workflow.

Dan
Super important...

[Mike Prevette]

Just put the 1000iso image into a 4k comp and looked at on a SD monitor, no grain at all once it gets squished that small.

How is the noise patterning?

[Adrian T.]

Awesomeness! :w00t:

[A. Bastaki]

im fucken ready too
________
Medical marijuana patient (http://mmjp.org)

[Mark Toia]

I can't believe the image is going to get better!

I have just finished a massive AD shot in 5 countries. The current Build 15 RED images are so deep, sharp, rich and dimensional that it's boarding on ridiculous. My clients can't believe what they see on screen. We finished grading them today and they jumped another level again!

I'm afraid to say it, but I'm already happy.
If the new build 16 is going to give me images better than what I'm already getting.... i'm just going to have to giggle like a little baby girl with my hands over my mouth.

RED Dude's, UNF&%$#N BELIEVABLE !, thats all I can say.

You have changed my whole business model (for the better) and for that, I'll will be truly thankful.

If any of you RED dudes (and dude-ets) are ever in AUS, Call and be treated to lunch that will last at least 2 days.:devil:

[Keith Nealy]

Absolutely awesome, Jim.

For those of us with windows-based work flows, how soon will RedCine be upgraded?

I'm also very excited about the improvements with tungsten lighting.

Bravo RED team.

Aloha Keith

[Paolo Tinari]

I'm Red spaced

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Looks amazing!

[Ricardo Mehedff]

very cool, start shooting a feature in three weeks, think build 16 will be out of beta by then?

[Ricardo Mehedff]

one other question for Jim, are we gonna be able to hear audio on RedAlert or Redcine on build 16??
thanks

[Meryem Ersoz]

Build 16 is pure, raw excitement, thanks for the still from the blue channel, what a difference - couple this with Mysterium X and what a monster - scale the size/weight ratio of the camera down to an EPIC -- oh, the ecstasy!

and 2 out of 3 of these enhancements at no cost and the 3rd with full credit towards a new body...it's unbelievable, really.

#1008 is heading to the shop as we speak for a sensor diagnosis, so it's not perfect yet and I've had some seriously glitchy moments along the way, but the commitment to perfection is second to none. It's nice to see.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Gimme!!:red_bandana:

[Barry Gregg]

I have a feature scheduled to start on July 1st. Any chance that sweet 16 will be out of beta? I sure hope so.

It will be an Indie SF with lots of effects. 16 would be so sweet for this show.

[Joe Vinson]

But when, man? When??

[James Brundige]

Are we talking days, weeks, or months? One lesson from the Red experience has been (almost) infinite patience. Whose gonna show up first, B 16 or my EVF?

[Casey Green]

Jim,

I've noticed you seem to use RA! quite a bit. Curious, do you use it more than REDCINE? If so why? Or is this just because it tends to be on a faster development cycle and works with the later builds?

I'd love to know more of your personal opinion on the two and what your workflow tends to be lately.

thanks,

[gdv]

Jim, don't know about the camera but you are a master in marketing

[Bang WOW Bang]

... for a new camera. At no extra charge.

Build 16 is like buying a new camera without going to the store, making a phone call, or placing and order online and waiting for FedEx to show up at your door.

We have all but solved to most difficult problems that have been plaguing us the last mile of this build. We are repackaging it for quick Alpha testing... then Beta.

The 1st thing that will strike you is REDspace. While you can "do it the old way", I recommend that you test REDspace before you do anything else. Your camera will default to REDspace. You will be surprised that the monitor looks like your scene and matches your meter and histogram at the same time. You will feel a confidence in exposure that you have not felt before.

You can now shoot many ISOs with confidence. Shoot ISO 320 for the cleanest image you can ever imagine in good light. ISO 500 should be your "standard" rating. We will put the RED ONE and Build 16 up against any 12 MP DSLR... side by side tests coming soon. Shoot ISO 125 if you are so inclined. Or ISO 1000. They all match color and gamma. Noise goes from none (literally) to good.

Your files (yes 4K 16:9) will open in RED Alert! (first app to support B16) and... the images look incredible. Just like you saw in the monitor. They will look cleaner (because they are) and you will shake your head. I am sure of it. That's what we did.

Shoot tungsten. You will be shocked at the improvement.

Welcome to Build 16. It is a new experience. At no extra charge. At a download near you.

Jim

Let's prepare our RED glory and may I ask when will my Tangen Control panels ( CP-200, a Set of Four Panel ) to map with REDspace and RedCine and REDalert or even you build your own " REDDI " Grading system for your RED Digital Cinema Empire.

I am not a dreamer in your RED Dream.

and

No REST but dream to our " Bloodly RED Sky " to change the WORLD of Digital Film Making.

I am happy with positive thinking in my Heart with Full of Blood.

Stewart
Founder
REDHKSC
HKG - CHINA

[SF Geek]

Will build 16 only be supported by Red Alert, no quicktime support or log and transfer or Redcine? Build 16 might be the coolest new shit on the block, but if we can't deal with it in post, it just brings us back to eight months ago. When are we getting a new Redcine? When will we be able to pick different resolutions in log and transfer. These questions are just as important as when will B16 be released.

[Bang WOW Bang]

Uncompressed RED RAW Port with Log files ( DPX files ) at 323MB /s is not a BIG Deal though !

Codex and S.Two are ready for long time to support it.

Stewart

[Emery Wells]

Bring it on Jim!!

[Bing Bailey]

you know jim I thought there was a certain amount of spin when you were talking about the amazing things you discovered. but looking at these exampes you were 100% right that this was game changing and amazing. I'll never doubt you again :)

[Chris Parker]

i love this place.

[Mark Andersen]

First you made my HDCAM obsolete, and now my DSLR is outdated too :bleh:

I am traveling to europe this summer with just my red on my back. I am not taking an DSLR this time (a first) any stills I want will come off my Red, can't wait for Epic and even better stills. This camera is a stock shooters dream.

[Bing Bailey]

I think one of the reasons that its taken this long is the rewrite on Redcine and RA, I doubt they'll release it without releasing at least one of those too

[Mark Andersen]

Jim said that B16 will work with RA first. What about RC? can we use it as well with B16 in Beta.

[SF Geek]

I'm just as interested in a new Redcine, perhaps not beta? It has been around for six months now.

[Harmonica]

:whistling: Beautiful work Red Team!

I was one of "those" that was a little worried when Epic was announced, but I've now been officially slapped in the face with B16. :w00t: Thanks!

[Jonas Nyström]

I'm prepared!

[Jason Diamond]

This is amazing. i keep saying it but the noise has that great filmic characteristic and its gonna be nice to have all that new useful latitude as well.

[Rick Darge]

Nuff hype.. Lets see it already

[Zakaree Sandberg]

shwwwing

[Martin Weiss]

I am traveling to europe this summer with just my red on my back.
If you come to Norway, be sure to drop by :)

(Spent one year in Utah as an exchange student half-an-age ago...)

[I Bloom]

Jim that's great news - will RedCine be far behind RA in supporting B16? i'd hate to lose my Crimson Workflow.

Dan

Dan, Redline is all you need to run Crimson. I suggest exporting to a high quality codec, ungraded with Redline and then do your grading elsewhere.

IBloom

[Dan]

Thanks Ian, forgot about the Redline workflow with Crimson, will give it a try.

I still think we need Redcine ready for B16, it's the only app suitable (free) for on-set monitoring of shots, you can't take 20 shots and skim through them with RA.

[I Bloom]

Thanks Ian, forgot about the Redline workflow with Crimson, will give it a try.

I still think we need Redcine ready for B16, it's the only app suitable (free) for on-set monitoring of shots, you can't take 20 shots and skim through them with RA.
I'm sure the Red guys and Assimilate agree with you completely. Unfortunately writing and debugging code is a mental exercise that doesn't benefit from being hurried.

[lumiere]

Fired Up!

Ready to Go!

[Clint Childers]

Will REDspace make the proxy's look like the original .r3d, in terms of Gamma, and brightness. That has always been my one concern, that the proxy (although they are just proxies) look muddy and not as bright as the .r3d.

[Antoine Fabi]

Is it a telepathic sensor/DSP replacement or what ??????

Guys, you're beyond any hope...

[Corrado Silveri]

waiting...

[Antoine Fabi]

Jim,

Will Red Alert be able to batch process ?

[David Birdy]

Jim & Red Team,

Thanks for your efforts to improve your products and push the envelope to
the highest level of quality!!

Are you selling stock Jim?

Dave

[Luis Otero]

Dan, Redline is all you need to run Crimson. I suggest exporting to a high quality codec, ungraded with Redline and then do your grading elsewhere.

Ian,

I don't know about others, but I bought Crimson since it integrates so well and EASY with Redcine as we know it today. I am a cinematographer; I do not want to be writting commands using Redline... :sick:

I suggest you create a video training using the Redline since I am having the sence that Redcine will be obsolete VERY SOON if it is not upgraded for Build 16. That will be a disappointment, and a hugh one! :waaa:

PS

Can you ellaborate on what do you really mean with " high quality codec" and "gradeng elswhere"? Thanks!

[I Bloom]

I'm very excited about drilling down into the depths of image coming off of this build. I visualize islands in oceans of noise where the oceans are suddenly swept away and great mountain ranges are revealed below.

IBloom

[I Bloom]

Luis,
Redcine is not going to be obsolete, I think you may be overreacting to a small delay. It's a good thing if Red releases Build 16 as beta with RedAlert support.
Their only alternative is to wait for Redcine support. They can't snap their fingers and make it so. So lets move forward as best we can. Please also don't forget it's beta and we shouldn't use it for pro jobs and please please please don't start a job without testing your workflow. All desperate midnight phonecalls about rendering DPX sequences and no play makes IBloom a dull boy.

Let's not take this thread too far off track. See my full reply to your questions here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=228305&postcount=199

Warm Regards,
IBloom

[Gian Joon]

The game has been changed once again.
Congrats Jim & Team.

[Häakon]

Dan, Redline is all you need to run Crimson. I suggest exporting to a high quality codec, ungraded with Redline and then do your grading elsewhere.

IBloom
With all respect Ian (and I can say that from my personal experiences, you've been absolutely great), the entire point of using Crimson with Redcine is so that you can grade just the part of your footage that you want in its full color space before you export that information to your "high quality codec" masters. If we're relegated to using REDLine and have no more control over the initial grade, then Crimson becomes useless to me since you're now forced to work in a reduced color space where the highlight and shadow information has been "burned in" and there's little to no overhead for tweaking those crucial areas of the image. This is precisely why one uses Redcine in the first place!

The only real alternative here is to export everything to individual TIFF frames - and besides the obvious annoyance of not having your clips saved as singular, playable movies, it completely defeats the point of the space-saving benefits of REDCODE and mandates that users have the necessary hard drive storage and processing power to chug through hours of uncompressed data. The real magic of RED is that it allows users with a single desktop box to actually deal with 24fps of 4K data without the need for expensive post house solutions. If we lose the ability to work with the RAW files in REDCODE, we've lost the big advantage that RED brings to the table.

I'm pleased to hear about the revisions in the camera with "Build 16," but until there is Redcine support, I honestly can't see myself doing any upgrading. Some people really seem to underestimate how important the post workflow is in this camera's success.

[Gunleik Groven]

Häakon. I agree.

I find myself contemplating Scratch, much because of workflow hazards when you move from "video" workflow to "film" workflow.

rendering out the online, then CC'ing and then maybe doing titles means a grand total of almost 1 GB/sec of 2k dpxs for a project.

But then... Color is a buggy beast, it hates 25 fps file based projects, randomly "forgets" or replaces grades and gamma goes all over the place (yes, I can compensate for gamma, but...)

Also - unless you go for linear tiffs - I don't agree at all that the batch processing in redline gives the same result as preparing your clips in RedCine. But RedCine is also a very buggy beast with a close to totally useless rendering engine...

So. Crimson with a RedCine like preview and redline rendering would definitely make more sense.

But as these tools will be updated with build 16...

[Jannard]

With all respect Ian (and I can say that from my personal experiences, you've been absolutely great), the entire point of using Crimson with Redcine is so that you can grade just the part of your footage that you want in its full color space before you export that information to your "high quality codec" masters. If we're relegated to using REDLine and have no more control over the initial grade, then Crimson becomes useless to me since you're now forced to work in a reduced color space where the highlight and shadow information has been "burned in" and there's little to no overhead for tweaking those crucial areas of the image. This is precisely why one uses Redcine in the first place!

The only real alternative here is to export everything to individual TIFF frames - and besides the obvious annoyance of not having your clips saved as singular, playable movies, it completely defeats the point of the space-saving benefits of REDCODE and mandates that users have the necessary hard drive storage and processing power to chug through hours of uncompressed data. The real magic of RED is that it allows users with a single desktop box to actually deal with 24fps of 4K data without the need for expensive post house solutions. If we lose the ability to work with the RAW files in REDCODE, we've lost the big advantage that RED brings to the table.

I'm pleased to hear about the revisions in the camera with "Build 16," but until there is Redcine support, I honestly can't see myself doing any upgrading. Some people really seem to underestimate how important the post workflow is in this camera's success.

Haakon... you won't have access to Build 16 until there is REDCINE support. The Alpha testers are chosen because they are willing to work with the tools we have through development.

Jim

[Nicholas Shields]

Redcine support? There's not even a manual!

Nick.

[michael zaletel]

...We will put the RED ONE and Build 16 up against any 12 MP DSLR... side by side tests coming soon...
Jim

Mr. Jannard:

If I can even match the quality of my 10MP Digital Rebel XTi, I will break down and cry. I am optimistic but a bit doubtful, I must admit. Please, please make it so.

-shooter

[David Battistella]

Some people really seem to underestimate how important the post workflow is in this camera's success.

Haakon,

I can not agree with you more. Beyond making fantastic images I think that red has to make it SUPER EASY for users to access the highest possible quality images from the camera. (even though I know it is inherently more time consuming to create DPX files or tiff sequences, etc.)

Peoples' (potential clients ) patience will run thin and they will shoot on other formats for simplicity (in specific markets but this will always be true).

A half debater QuickTime to Prores does not do this camera justice (even though it looks amazing) and the fact that a private citizen in NYC is currently providing the best post solution does not really cut it (but I agree that it is awesome that it is happening and this is part of what makes RED great).

I hope and believe that Red has been focusing on build 16, but the plan will now be to find a way to have us access the best quality image from the r3d file though various software programs (with SDK development I am sure that this is the intention). We bought the camera for the quality of those images not the QT proxies (but it is great to have the QT reference).

I've heard far to many grumblings about "no post work flow" (amoung Toronto producers and LARGE post operations) and they should not have to buy scratch to answer the bell (they just want an easy way to plug RED into existing work flows and it is true that the back half of the workflow (RedCine) does not even have documentation, recommended computer system configurations, v-out, etc)

David

EDIT: I wanted to clarify some of what was in this post because I typed it on my iphone and I did not feel I was as clear or as positive as I had intended it to be. I would do anything I can to help the RED team on the post end.

[Luis Otero]

Haakon... you won't have access to Build 16 until there is REDCINE support. The Alpha testers are chosen because they are willing to work with the tools we have through development.

Jim

What I understand from Jim's post is that Redcine WILL support B16, and it will not be released until RC is modified to support it. Right, Jim?:innocent:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Dan, Redline is all you need to run Crimson. I suggest exporting to a high quality codec, ungraded with Redline and then do your grading elsewhere.

But Ian, if you're exporting to ProRes or similar codec that crushes your color space, it helps A LOT to do a one-light CC before the export. ...And an updated REDCINE is on the way, so no worries, as long as it still works with Crimson. :)

[Jannard]

REDCINE will support the Build 16 official release... obviously.

Jim

[Clay Morrison]

REDCINE will support the Build 16 official release... obviously.

Jim

Jim,

Is there any chance that this next version of REDCINE will include a module that supports proper SD downconversion?

[Luis Otero]

And sound...???:bleh:

[Raphael Varandas]

Thank U Jim ...Thank You Guys.
Great Job...
I'm ready too.
Bring more news.

[Jason Sinclair]

Jim, don't know about the camera but you are a master in marketing

Yea, who ever would have thought of making the best product, communicating directly with customers, Allowing people a preview of alpha product, and having integrity in business dealings etc... It's the ideal marketing example. We can only hope more companies follow in the future...

[Jannard]

Yea, who ever would have thought of making the best product, communicating directly with customers, Allowing people a preview of alpha product, and having integrity in business dealings etc... It's the ideal marketing example. We can only hope more companies follow in the future...

We have no idea what we are doing... how many other companies will admit that!???!!!

Jim

[Steve Sherrick]

We have no idea what we are doing... how many other companies will admit that!???!!!

Jim

Something tells me Build 16 will make that statement hard to take seriously Jim. :biggrin:

[SF Geek]

How come there is no hype about Redcine? Are there no new fixes? I would really like to be able to set a batch transcode and not come in the next morning to half of the clips being freeze frames.

The thing is, many people were happy with the quality of build 15. I don't know many people who were happy with the state of Redcine and the post options. That's what I'm interested in and I don't think I'm the only one.

[Raphael Varandas]

hahah...right.
Send my 3000...please

[Steve Sherrick]

How come there is no hype about Redcine? Are there no new fixes? I would really like to be able to set a batch transcode and not come in the next morning to half of the clips being freeze frames.

The thing is, many people were happy with the quality of build 15. I don't know many people who were happy with the state of Redcine and the post options. That's what I'm interested in and I don't think I'm the only one.

Your points are valid. But first and foremost the camera has to be able to shoot the best possible images it can. As good as Build 15 is, it's not without its flaws and it sounds like they are addressing a lot of these which will only enhance the camera's reputation.

Then the focus clearly moves onto post tools. Obviously, if there were endless resources at Red then these tasks would be happening simultaneously. Maybe they are. But I have to think a lot of priority is on Making the camera rock solid.

I would like a fast, rock solid transcoding tool as much as anyone, but I'm trying to be realistic based on what I understand Red's staff size to be. It's still a small shop by corporate standards, Jim can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jannard]

How come there is no hype about Redcine? Are there no new fixes? I would really like to be able to set a batch transcode and not come in the next morning to half of the clips being freeze frames.

The thing is, many people were happy with the quality of build 15. I don't know many people who were happy with the state of Redcine and the post options. That's what I'm interested in and I don't think I'm the only one.

We have absolutely no intention of improving our workflow. Heck, REDCINE is free, right?

We use this stuff, too. We know what is wrong and that everything needs to improve, just as it has since day one. Thing is, we want to build as good a system as we can. Top to bottom. We jumped in with both feet and have done really well in some areas and not so well in others. But we are working our asses off on as many things as possible. Please excuse my impatience with your post/tone. I have been up 120 hours straight...

Jim

[Steve Sherrick]

I have been up 120 hours straight...

Jim

Well, you just blew my personal record of 56 hours straight right out of the water. It's hard to compete with you Jim. Just ask the guys at S#@y.

[Raphael Varandas]

absolutely right... get some sleep...you have this right
Tomorrow is another REDay

[SF Geek]

I don't take it personally. I understand that you get to hear a lot of complaining. It's just that the issue I have with converting people to the Red is not image quality. I have to just show them some images and they can't argue with the quality. It's much harder to impress them with the post options. I'm not saying that there aren't any. They're just not as shiny.

[George A.]

We jumped in with both feet and have done really well in some areas and not so well in others.

Jim,

I don't know if it's the 120 straight hours or not, but I'm quite impressed with your sincerity. Honestly. Keep up the good work.

[Häakon]

Haakon... you won't have access to Build 16 until there is REDCINE support.

REDCINE will support the Build 16 official release... obviously.
Thanks for your attention to the matter Jim. Please forgive me (and the several others who made posts!) as it wasn't "obvious" from your first post in this thread where you mentioned "Your files (yes 4K 16:9) will open in RED Alert! (first app to support B16)." It's great to hear that REDCine support will be available from day one as well. I can only assume that with the announcement of working 16:9 clips in Quicktime, it means 4K 16:9 files will work within REDCine too?

I'm with you, SF Geek... I have the same problems with my workflow. I'm crossing my fingers that all the resources have gone into making Build 16 as stable as possible and all of our troubles will be over soon!

[Frank Weeks]

1761 is only about a week or so away so I applaud your timing Jim. It sounds like a great step foreword. Now get some sleep for God sake.

[Darren Orange]

Jim,
May I ask why 120 hours? As I am impressed.

I guess the old statement, "who needs sleep", but really thats awesome, Kudos Jim, that shows a commitment to something.

If the ideas (Red Ideas) or problems don't stop then the mind does not either as result sleep is not an option, thats what I am guessing.

[Luis Otero]

...Their only alternative is to wait for Redcine support. They can't snap their fingers and make it so...
IBloom

************************************************** ************************************************** *******
REDCINE will support the Build 16 official release... obviously.

Jim


Ian,

Based on Jim's message (see # 104) we will get B16 at the same time that Redcine will be able to support such build.:love:

[Jannard]

Thanks for your attention to the matter Jim. Please forgive me (and the several others who made posts!) as it wasn't "obvious" from your first post in this thread where you mentioned "Your files (yes 4K 16:9) will open in RED Alert! (first app to support B16)." It's great to hear that REDCine support will be available from day one as well. I can only assume that with the announcement of working 16:9 clips in Quicktime, it means 4K 16:9 files will work within REDCine too?

I'm with you, SF Geek... I have the same problems with my workflow. I'm crossing my fingers that all the resources have gone into making Build 16 as stable as possible and all of our troubles will be over soon!

SF and Haakon... I am sure that when we solve the workflow issues you will have some other request. Human nature. If I just had (xxx)... then I would be happy. That's OK. I embrace it.

Jim

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Jim,

You are changing so many people's lives… for the better, I hope you are feeling really good about it.

Sleep well.
Emmanuel

[Luis Otero]

Jim,

You are changing so many people's lives… for the better, I hope you are feeling really good about it.

Sleep well.
Emmanuel

No kidding... Big time!!!:w00t:

[Clint Johnson]

I want immortality and a faster than light space drive and I'll be happy... that's all I need. Wait... immortality, faster than light space drive and this ashtray. That's all I need... and and this paddle game...

[Häakon]

SF and Haakon... I am sure that when we solve the workflow issues you will have some other request. Human nature. If I just had (xxx)... then I would be happy. That's OK. I embrace it.

Jim
Actually, I've been very pleased with my RED since Crimson and REDCine are working decently happily with each other. Come now, I haven't been busting your balls for awhile now! :-) I was just worried when you said that "RED Alert! would be the first app which would work with Build 16" that it would break my current workflow, and I simply remarked that I don't think I would consider upgrading until the proper post pieces are in place again. Doesn't mean I'm anti-Build 16. :bleh:

I think many seem critical because you have provided this unprecedented level of communication with the public through every chain in your company, and it's the first time most of us have had the opportunity to influence a product so profoundly for the better. You yourself are the one who declared, "the camera will never be finished." In that same mindset, we are just trying to prioritize our concerns. I do think that SF Geek has some valid issues... the latest build of REDCine was released back in February, and there are some frustrating bugs which still haven't been addressed. Maybe that's because all of the energy has been diverted to Build 16 and making that work solidly, but how are we to know? Call it "human nature" if you like, but I don't believe any of these requests have been unnecessary or founded by unrealistic expectations. That being said, I apologize if any of my remarks have pushed your buttons tonight. I am still a fan!

[laguun]

The red camera and the red team are outstanding, R16 looks excellent and the dedication of the company and its customers is great. Thanks!

The postproduction beta workflow and the lock-out of the mayor and marketleading post companies however are *the* main concern of many red-customers and users worldwide.

As R16 is announced as the last obstacle before finally other companies are allowed to support redcode i suppose many readers were surprised to read (or misunderstood) that R16 would only work with RA.

[Jannard]

The red camera and the red team are outstanding, R16 looks excellent and the dedication of the company and its customers is great. Thanks!

The postproduction beta workflow and the lock-out of the mayor and marketleading post companies however are *the* main concern of many red-customers and users worldwide.

As R16 is announced as the last obstacle before finally other companies are allowed to support redcode i suppose many readers were surprised to read (or misunderstood) that R16 would only work with RA.

Alpha Build 16 only works with RED Alert! Release Build 16 will work with REDCINE and then we start working on the SDK so others can join in. That has always been the plan.

Jim

[Deanan]

You can't do the massive changes we've done in build 16 and support 4+ apps in parallel (RC, RA, QT, RL plus all the tools you don't see).

There are 50+ things we've been tuning and reworking on the camera and post side. We've rebuilt things again and again and again to come with with the best solutions. Now that we're almost there, the post side is starting to catch up. Things have to flow in the proper order or everything would take 10 times longer. Internally, everything happens with RA first and then propagates to the other apps.

[Poi Boy]

Can't wait for 16! blue channel looks amazing, what an improvement.
As far as redcine goes, I would much prefer to pay for the software and have it work reliably; I'm sure it will in time. For now bring on 16 and red alert !
Aloha
-A

[Jannard]

Can't wait for 16! blue channel looks amazing, what an improvement.
As far as redcine goes, I would much prefer to pay for the software and have it work reliably; I'm sure it will in time. For now bring on 16 and red alert !
Aloha
-A

How much? :-)

Jim

[Tony Lorentzen]

Alpha Build 16 only works with RED Alert! Release Build 16 will work with REDCINE and then we start working on the SDK so others can join in. That has always been the plan.

Jim

Does that mean that you haven't begun working on the SDK?

[Poi Boy]

How much? :-)

Jim

$1000. to $1,500.US
-A

[Deanan]

Does that mean that you haven't begun working on the SDK?

SDK work started before build 16 but had to pause through all the changes happening with 16. SDK picks up full steam after RC is going. They're all linked together.

[Jason Ing]

Great! That's really generous of you Poi Boy to pay for all of us. ;)

Mahalo, Poi Boy!

(uhmmm... that's what you meant, right?)

[reality]

I'm happy with the workflow so far. I've processed about 500 hours of footage in the last two months with no issues. Both through Redcine and RedAlert/Redline depending on the requirements of the job. No problems dealing with Redalert here if you put me on the alpha! Please! Please! Please!

Pleeeeease!

[Jannard]

REDCINE... now $1500. As soon as we sell 1000 seats we will get it as stable as any other software application!

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

REDCINE... now $1500. As soon as we sell 1000 seats we will get it as stable as any other software application!

Jim

RED store still hasn't the software category... could be just one of Jim's jokes ... or I'm wrong here!?

[Jannard]

RED store still don't have the software category... could be just one of Jim's jokes ... or I'm wrong here!?

... just a joke.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Jim.

I knew it but was just curious...

[Shawn Bannon]

what is some of the best feedback from alpha testers of build 16?

[Craig Ryan]

My guess is something along the lines of "HOLY SH*T!!!!!"

[NormLi]

haha!! KEEP IT FREE BABY!!!!

[Poi Boy]

free ?

[Steve Sherrick]

How much? :-)

Jim

I would pay $1000 for a "Red Digital Lab" software app. All joking aside here. Let's say of the thousands of people/companies that would need this, 1000 buy it. That's $1,000,000. That could go a long way to doing the following:

1. Assign a dedicated team on this app.
2. Assure stability and proper support
3. Provide thorough documentation and video tutorials
4. R&D to make it as efficient and feature rich as possible.

I know the thinking is to make it easy for all of the post houses to have a way of dealing with the footage, but I'd rather pay the money and get a kick ass program. You guys are up to your eyeballs with stuff to do. If charging for Redcine (or another app) allows you to expand staff and dedicate resources to its development, please do it. Everyone wants stuff for free these days. Sometimes you have to draw the line.

Just my .02

[Jason Ing]

I think Poi Boy needs some Maui Wowee to relax a bit and stop giving Jim ideas. :)

[Clint Johnson]

Alpha Build 16 only works with RED Alert! Release Build 16 will work with REDCINE and then we start working on the SDK so others can join in. That has always been the plan.

Jim

Does that mean we folk stuck in the PC world are left out of the Build 16 BETA goodness?

I am most emphatically NOT suggesting you hold up the beta so that we don't feel left out, I just want to know if I should curb my enthusiasm for the Beta Build16 and hold it for the Release Build16?

[reality]

For every 1 person that buys RedCinePro, 100 people pirate it. Then after only 10 copies get sold we get to deal with one copy per person and dongle protection. The red tools work for me and I run them on 10 machines. It makes me wonder if y'all aren't even trying.

[Patrick Tresch]

1. Assign a dedicated team on this app.
2. Assure stability and proper support
3. Provide thorough documentation and video tutorials
4. R&D to make it as efficient and feature rich as possible.

... but I'd rather pay the money and get a kick ass program.

I think they are allready doing their best and as Deanan said they have to do it properly : first build16, then redcine then SDK. You can't kick asses with more money...

Hope that the great RED team didn't take your statement personally.

My 2 cents.

Pat

[Steve Sherrick]

For every 1 person that buys RedCinePro, 100 people pirate it. Then after only 10 copies get sold we get to deal with one copy per person and dongle protection. The red tools work for me and I run them on 10 machines. It makes me wonder if y'all aren't even trying.

We live in a world with a lot of dishonest people. Software companies have had to fight back against those who are acquiring their software illegally. If Red were to charge for a Redcine Pro, they would have to take some of these same steps and who could blame them? I am okay with adhering to whatever copy protection method they might come up with.

Are you saying there are no bugs and you are happy with rendering times? I think the apps are good considering they are beta, but they are not bug free and the rendering times are steep unless you have a lot of firepower to throw at it. Having said that, I am happy we have something to work with while they continue to improve them and bring them to release builds. If they are able to make these apps solid and there is no charge, that's even better. But my point is, i'd rather pay if it means we get better apps with lots of support.

[Patrick Tresch]

But my point is, i'd rather pay if it means we get better apps with lots of support.

You can buy Scratch Cine, you will get a better app with lots of support.

http://www.boxxtech.com/products/redBOXX/redBOXX.asp?mtcPromotion=redBOXX>BOXX>eBlast&mtcEmail=tresch@hotmail.com&mtcCampaign=4741

Pat

[Pawel Achtel]

Alpha Build 16 only works with RED Alert! Release Build 16 will work with REDCINE and then we start working on the SDK so others can join in. That has always been the plan.

Jim

OK, reverse (and more important) question: Will the footage acquired with build 15 work on RedCine 16 and the SDK?

[Deanan]

OK, reverse (and more important) question: Will the footage acquired with build 15 work on RedCine 16 and the SDK?

YES..

[Gunleik Groven]

How much? :-)

Jim

A working RedCine would definitely propagate the use of RED a lot...

The value goes both ways. Currently, having to deal with 2-3 generations of DPXs is killing off a lot of the market, and please don't say "Scratch" (even though I may go there". People aren't killing off their Smoke suites anytime soon.

We need a reliable development tool with good renderengine even with the SDK out, to make RED fit to peoples needs.

Yes, I would pay for it, but this is software for many more than the RED owners.

I don't know how many of my customers actually bought gluetools/crimson, but I certainly have adviced each and everyone to do so.

As color is a buggy beast, it's not a real option for high invoice work. It's too slow and buggy by far, and sorta explodes in your face when you least need it, so RED needs tools that integrates better.

I don't say "There isn't workflows", there are, BUT

There are good "Videoworkflows" and there is a good highend workflow (I guess...) Scratch.

There isn't currently a non-geeky way to make RED fit smoothly into established workflows, and it is putting customers off. They're happy to pay for a DIT on set that prepares offlines and organizes the projects. They do NOT want another day in post for making projects ready for online.

So what would I pay to make this work?
What is needed to be done for RED to unlock more markeds? :)

A working REdCine would with edl in/out and colorinfo embedded in the xmls for renders in Redline, that doesn't crash all the time and doesn't die when you mix formats in the project, would be an essential step to solve the current worst problems.

As far as I understood, I here essentialy have described RedCine as I originally understoodthat it would be, not a "pro" app. Just a proper bridging app.

G

[Jeff Brown]

All sounds good to me. The thing eveyone is forgetting here is that with the SDK release all these "rock solid platform" issues will be taken up by deidcated software companies (who aren't distracted by making cameras...).

It's not just RED but all the other RAW shooting cameras out there that will see RAW supporting digital lab programs that support all the flavours (Phantom. SI2K etc). At that point post once again becomes part of the post houses remit (who will need to buy in or lose out on the work). That leaves Red shooters to do what they are good at and not have to spend days holding the hands of editors (My palms are getting sweaty...)

My only request at the moment is that (if not already) the Amazing Mr Bloom is allowed to be part of the Redcine/B16 alpha/beta so that Crimson will work right out the gate....Pretty please.

Cheers
Jeff Brown
RED708

[laguun]

You can't do the massive changes we've done in build 16 and support 4+ apps in parallel (RC, RA, QT, RL plus all the tools you don't see).

makes perfect sense.

[laguun]

As far as redcine goes, I would much prefer to pay for the software and have it work reliably; I'm sure it will in time.
-A

How much? :-)

Jim

continuing reds rebel "take the market with quality and disruptive pricing" approach:

For the 4K (and later) 5K folks you can easily charge
~ 5000 with a good color correction, sound and EDL
~ 9000 with Masks and Tracker added
and would once more do the "impossible" .

Besides red customers any pro post studio offering red services would be pretty interested and usually 1 cam feeds 5 post studios. For the 3K crowd you might want to shave off an 0 somewhere in the price.

The market is totally there. So far "Digital Intermediate" was an synonym for very few copies, very high prices, limited functionality. Slightly remembers me of the top-class cinema camera market before a certain group of individuals decided to change this... :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

As many of you know, I've been pretty quiet lately, but I've been here. I think build 16 is wonderful, and as painful as it can sometimes be, I believe image quality should be first and foremost on RED's minds.

Some had posted that post was equal to or more important than the current image upgrades. From the customers/vendor's viewpoint, I would agree with this. Why? Cause we can currently sell the camera and it's image, but we cannot very successfully sell the camera with it's post.

Jim you commented that it's human nature to get one thing, and then want another. I think in this case, many owner/operators are looking at the list they need to be in business. Support across a post workflow is major to the useability of a camera. (About now someone jumps on me saying "FCP and Scratch work perfectly! Yes, I know, but the world is a little bigger than that).

But here's the trick.. And this is the reason for my silence. RED CANNOT PROCEED IN THE ORDER WE MAY WANT THEM TOO.

If they chase us around trying to make the camera "business ready" but do things out of order to make that happen, then in reality, the camera itself will develop far slower than it has. Someone on here said "we have to start from the top down"

It starts with the image, and then works from there. While painful, RED is doing things in the right order, and once they are through, they will really be through. In a sense, thank God they did not do things in the order we wanted them too. The camera development could have suffered for years, or more.

It's easy to see build 16 is close to done. Then the SDK is right behind it. What's going to matter is that this build has the same ability to be accessed and worked with as the current builds. I am guessing the SDK will allow far MORE access as companies will be able to make better use of Metadata, and that's huge.

The wait is tough, that I grant you, but I am confident RED is doing this in the right order. So just hang on a little longer.

Jay

[Chris Parker]

REDCine Pro for $999 would FLY off the shelves. $499 would be even better....at this price you'd reach not just the pro post houses, but the guy in his basement with Final Cut Studio.

[Paul Hazlett]

REDCINE... now $1500. As soon as we sell 1000 seats we will get it as stable as any other software application!

Jim

sold!!

[Bing Bailey]

they should just buy crimson from ibloom and integrate it into redcine

[Gunleik Groven]

REDCINE... now $1500. As soon as we sell 1000 seats we will get it as stable as any other software application!

Jim

well, I'm in (with edl support, colormetadata in XML. rendering in redline, roundtrip to whatever, no crashes, all RED formates in the same timeline)

Just drop the total GPU dependancy. It doesn't work too well yet...

[Erasmus]

...Build 16 is like buying a new camera without going to the store, making a phone call, or placing and order online and waiting for FedEx to show up at your door. . .

I didn't know Jim was also a POET.

A Genius, a Visionary, a Gentleman AND a Poet!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

REDCine Pro for $999 would FLY off the shelves. $499 would be even better....at this price you'd reach not just the pro post houses, but the guy in his basement with Final Cut Studio.

WTF is wrong with you guys? REDCINE is a free app, it needs to stay a free app. All planned features included. I don't see where throwing $500/$1000/$1500/whatever per customer at it is going to make it a better piece of software. ...Just my opinion.

[Erasmus]

Free Free Free Free Free Free Free!

[Gunleik Groven]

WTF is wrong with you guys? REDCINE is a free app, it needs to stay a free app. All planned features included. I don't see where throwing $500/$1000/$1500/whatever per customer at it is going to make it a better piece of software. ...Just my opinion.

I do agree, but I'd rather pay for a working app than having the current for free..

[Paolo Tinari]

well, I'm in (with edl support, colormetadata in XML. rendering in redline, roundtrip to whatever, no crashes, all RED formates in the same timeline)

Just drop the total GPU dependancy. It doesn't work too well yet...

I'm in for that too

[Joel Kaye]

I do agree, but I'd rather pay for a working app than having the current for free..

I see the point but the camera requires software to work. Who's to say there isn't already a charge built into the camera for the software? It would be sorta dumb for them to not have budgeted its' development costs into the cost of the camera. Calling it free is simply a marketing communication choice. It's like saying the Joystick on the back of the camera is free and if it falls off it's a free part so don't gripe much about it. Uh yeah... then what - we offer to pay $1000 for a joystick that works?

That said, I think SDK and a little competition to support RED users is when RED post will take off. I'd sure like to see Color support soon. That would solve RedCine and Redalert issues on a Mac.

[Gunleik Groven]

...

That said, I think SDK and a little competition to support RED users is when RED post will take off. I'd sure like to see Color support soon. That would solve RedCine and Redalert issues on a Mac.

I'm not so sure...

They showed RAW in FCP last NAB and RAW in COLOR this, so there's no question they can do it (and have done it).

To me this means there are policy-issues stopping these solutions instead of the current work-around-flows, not technology.

I fear that REDRAW in FCP/COLOR will be limited to ProRes capasity for quality, which frankly does not give the camera the best solution in a lot of situations where the cam could excell...

[David Battistella]

For what it is worth I have made modifications to my post in this thread #101 to qualify some of my statements.

What I am hearing most often in my town, and I am just sharing this, is that the underlying feeling is that getting the most out of RED footage is laborious and time consuming. It does not feel easy.

I am not saying that this is the case, I am talking about perceptions.

People are used to easy conforms. This happened with FCP in the initial days as well. FCP's media manager was a disaster and it took them three releases to get it right.

Because of AVID people were already used to how easy it was to re-conform low rez to high rez. Avid offered and elegant and smooth path from within the software. You had to recapture your tapes, but it was smooth, easy and it worked.

What I think people want (and I know it is what RED wants) is for us to be able to work on the low end proxies and then reconnect to the highest quality images from the r3d for conforms. Just render it from the timeline in FCP for example.

This is obviously the current bottleneck.

I completely understand the logic of getting build 16 perfect (as perfect as it can be right now) so that RA, RC, and the SDK can follow.

But some believe that there is a short window. Although I am in for the long haul, I can sense and feel that other might drift away and that means climbing up the mountain again and rebuilding the great momentum RED has right now.

I wish we could have the best parts of RA, RC and Crimson in ONE app for MAC and PC called RED POST.

That would satisfy many and give us the "here, shut the fuck up" ammo that we need when people bitch at us about post workflow.

my 2 cents.

just so people know where I stand:
I love my red. I love the images. I work with it in every situation and I do what ever I can in my city to help spread the word about this fantastic new technology that I am genuinely giddy about.
I want RED, everyone here at reduser and my colleagues in this city to have amazing success and great experiences with their RED.

[I Bloom]

The recent post on http://prolost.blogspot.com/ is a very clear explanation of linear light imaging and it's relationship to film look. It explains alot about understanding exposure and why Build 16 is such a wonderful step.

In particular Stu points out that it's in the conversion from linear to log that noise is amplified exponentially in the blacks. In fact on the linear signal noise exists just as much in the fully exposed portion of the image as in the blacks, it is evenly distributed across all values. Its only in the redistribution of values for proper viewing that the noise "appears more in the blacks."

Stu Maschwitz is my idol.

So now I'm wondering can you tell us about the mathematical distribution of RedSpace. How does it compare to Rec709 exactly? What is the difference between Redspace and Redlog?

Or is Redspace, as I suspect, just beautiful women with bubble helmets and mylar bikinis, orbiting slowly around one another in zero-g.

IBloom

[David Battistella]

For all interested Jim has a way to go for the record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder))

David

i've only ever gone 96hrs at a stretch editing until I could no longer feel my feet.

[Jarred Land]

This is starting to become a workflow discussion.. I probably should start dividing this thread and put it where it belongs :)

[David Battistella]

This is starting to become a workflow discussion.. I probably should start dividing this thread and put it where it belongs :)

Ok.

I hear ya. I just wanted to be clear. You guys are doing amazing things.

I am grateful and curious at the same time.

David

[Miltos Pilalitos]

This is starting to become a workflow discussion.. I probably should start dividing this thread and put it where it belongs :)

Feed us with something B16 to keep the fire going! :-)

[Steve Sherrick]

WTF is wrong with you guys? REDCINE is a free app, it needs to stay a free app. All planned features included. I don't see where throwing $500/$1000/$1500/whatever per customer at it is going to make it a better piece of software. ...Just my opinion.

Jeff, I'm a small company so I understand the idea of keeping expenses down. I am not into throwing money around, so when I bring up the idea of charging for a "Digital Lab" app it's because I want the best tool I can get to handle this footage. Even if it's a $1000, if the app speeds up my workflow by 50% the ROI will be huge for me. In my market, the post side of things is still a hard sell right now. I don't blame Red for this. They have put out a tool that does transcode footage. But some clients have not been into it. If there was an app that was faster and more integrated with NLEs, I believe it would be easier to sell people on the entire process.

I can't even imagine the hard work that is going into making Build 16. And then there are the two new cameras, and Red Ray development. There is a lot going on. Without being on the inside it's impossible to know what's being deemed a priority. Maybe Redcine is. If they are able to make it an even better tool without charging for it, then I will be as happy as anybody. But there is a lot on these guys plates, so exploring ways of getting more hands on deck seems logical to me.

I'm going to hold off commenting any further on this though because quite honestly I think the Red team knows what they are doing and I'm not really contributing much useful info here.:)

[Emery Wells]

The recent post on http://prolost.blogspot.com/ is a very clear explanation of linear light imaging and it's relationship to film look. It explains alot about understanding exposure and why Build 16 is such a wonderful step.

In particular Stu points out that it's in the conversion from linear to log that noise is amplified exponentially in the blacks. In fact on the linear signal noise exists just as much in the fully exposed portion of the image as in the blacks, it is evenly distributed across all values. Its only in the redistribution of values for proper viewing that the noise "appears more in the blacks."

Stu Maschwitz is my idol.

So now I'm wondering can you tell us about the mathematical distribution of RedSpace. How does it compare to Rec709 exactly? What is the difference between Redspace and Redlog?

Or is Redspace, as I suspect, just beautiful women with bubble helmets and mylar bikinis, orbiting slowly around one another in zero-g.

IBloom

I echo Ians request for an explanation of Redspace!

[wshultz]

I've spent thousands on very buggy apps. I've gotten shareware or free that is solid. Spending money doesn't magically make things less buggy. I really appreciate the freeness of the software.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I second that!

[Salem Kapic]

ok, we can move "REDCINE pro" discussion to:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14341

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, I'm a small company so I understand the idea of keeping expenses down. I am not into throwing money around, so when I bring up the idea of charging for a "Digital Lab" app it's because I want the best tool I can get to handle this footage. Even if it's a $1000, if the app speeds up my workflow by 50% the ROI will be huge for me.

Steve, I have to admit that my post this morning was written in haste... I don't think I completely conveyed my thoughts. I completely agree with you, I'm just not sure why people are throwing random figures out there like $500 or $1000 to make it better. We don't know what's involved in developing REDCINE or how it factors into the overall picture, etc.. The other way I look at it is that not all problems can be solved by throwing money at them. I see RED's software tools as continuously evolving products, just like the camera. I guess I just thought it was odd that people are offering to pay for an application that is supposed to be free in order to make it better, but yet no one is discussing what they want for their money.
Personally, I'd like to see REDCINE continue to develop as a free tool. Let RED get it to be 100% stable and let RED concentrate resources on getting that SDK out the door. But perhaps a REDCINE Pro isn't a bad thing to want for as a future product. We have to wonder if the free REDCINE will ever understand EDLs natively or be a functional conform tool without resorting to XML translators like Crimson Workflow.


In my market, the post side of things is still a hard sell right now

I was worried that I would have this issue too. But I'm finding the general attitude to be positive, it's a new camera, there will be kinks to work out. The workflow isn't too much more demanding (or problematic) in relation to current computer and storage systems than DVCPROHD via P2 when I (and several of my clients) started shooting that. It's workable now and will only get better.


I'm going to hold off commenting any further on this though because quite honestly I think the Red team knows what they are doing and I'm not really contributing much useful info here.:)

Ah, come on... You normally have something constructive to say. :) But I think I'm done too.. we've derailed this thread enough.

[Jannard]

REDCINE will always be free. We'll keep improving it as we go. Just like the camera upgrades.

Jim

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Thanks! That's the right thing to do! (for us!)

[Andrew M.]

I guess, no chances for REDCINE PRO?
1K-1.5K range, secondary color ?

Yes, at 3000 cameras sold the budged would be 450K not much to develop the whole package from SCRATCH:-) ?? is it?

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Andrew didn't you hear the man? We are going to have Redcine (Pro) for free! :-)

[David Battistella]

I have one other question.

I love how stable RA is but I love the potential of RC, but i'd love to see a "killer app" that gives the best of both.

Is RED eventually moving towards one application for post?

Wouldn't that lessen the development workload?

David

[Bing Bailey]

it wouldn't make sense anyway because they'll need it for scarlet and epic and they are using the same technologies. what I do like about red's approach so far is each advance they are using to make all the products better and in the same way

[David Battistella]

Just a thought for all of you people asking for a PAID application.

Don't you think it is fair that if RED has created a BRAND NEW FORMAT in R3D files, that they should support that format for free?

What do you think competitors would say if RED forced you to pay for the only application that allowed you to access the footage you just shot?

Don't you think there would be a bit more than screaming going on in this thread?

I plan to patiently wait to see if anyone jumps on the SDK (which they will) and see how much they charge to access R3D files in their application. I suspect many apps will go the way of FCP and include access to r3d footage to their customer free of charge.

Just think about this before you rip me.

David

[David Battistella]

it wouldn't make sense anyway because they'll need it for scarlet and epic and they are using the same technologies. what I do like about red's approach so far is each advance they are using to make all the products better and in the same way

very good point!

david

[Andrew M.]

Andrew didn't you hear the man? We are going to have Redcine (Pro) for free! :-)

Where!? I must missed it...

[David Dennis]

I think the problem RED is having is that there is a small tight team of people. This is such a small group, I think, that many of the people on REDUSER have met most or all of them at NAB.

Small groups tend to be the most efficient ways to make projects like RED happen. They are agile and can move quickly. But even working 120 hour days like Jim, they have a limited amount of time they can work.

It's extremely difficult to start adding people to this team, because any new person has to get up to speed with how things work, and is unlikely to have the brilliance of the people who have carried the project this far. Getting people up to speed often disrupts the way people who are asked the questions are working and the result is that things actually get done slower.

This has all been covered in various management books and is a huge problem with any large software development project.

We know everyone is working very hard and we know they are the best people in the world at what they do. This means we'll get a great product, if we only have patience for it.

D

[cinepost35]

Patience... I think most have on Reduser and the "Red Team" I'm sure is working harder than we will ever know....even beyond the long hours stated.

Have I missed a post though that indicated any ETA for Beta Build16 Days,Weeks?

Just curious.

[Bang WOW Bang]

We have no idea what we are doing... how many other companies will admit that!???!!!

Jim

Jim,
As long as you are having " Fun, make $, change the world a little bit and finally make some good contributions " are good enough though in life.

Stew.
HKG

[david farland]

I expect the 'problem' in developing Redcine further is the licencing agreement between Red and Assimilate for Assimilate's code within Redcine.

Red will need to revise this agreement and recompense Assimilate accordingly so they can develop Redcine to a degree that other Assimilate products are even more impacted.
I expect Assimilate developers do most of the changes to RedCine anyway.

....I would of loved to negoitate (see....i can't even spell it) that original deal!!

Dave,

[Curran Giddens]

I expect the 'problem' in developing Redcine further is the licencing agreement between Red and Assimilate for Assimilate's code within Redcine.

Red will need to revise this agreement and recompense Assimilate accordingly so they can develop Redcine to a degree that other Assimilate products are even more impacted.
I expect Assimilate developers do most of the changes to RedCine anyway.

....I would of loved to negoitate (see....i can't even spell it) that original deal!!

Dave,

I agree.

If I were Assimilate I would have negotiated the original deal where RED would be required to have shipped X amount of cameras for specific amount of time before the agreement ends. This way Scratch would be the only native RD3 post solution for long enough to attract new sales. Because of delays in shipping the required number of RED cameras, the agreement had to be extended.

[Greg M]

Jim,
Just a quick note to let you know...
I am now prepared and ready...bring it on!

[Robert Sanders]

I'm curious as to how B16 handles anamorphic photography. Is there any way to properly unsqueezed footage natively in-camera for monitoring purposes? Will there be a preset in RedAlert or Redcine to crop and conform footage?

[Jannard]

I'm curious as to how B16 handles anamorphic photography. Is there any way to properly unsqueezed footage natively in-camera for monitoring purposes? Will there be a preset in RedAlert or Redcine to crop and conform footage?

This is no in-camera unsqueeze for anamorphic. There are external monitors that do this however.

Jim

[david farland]

This is no in-camera unsqueeze for anamorphic. There are external monitors that do this however.

Jim

I'm hoping the panasonic BT-LH1760 (ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/bt-lh1760pe_oi.pdf)here will be okay (page 20)

damn about no 1080p out thou....cough!!

[Jannard]

I'm hoping the panasonic BT-LH1760 (ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/manuals/bt-lh1760pe_oi.pdf)here will be okay (page 20)

damn about no 1080p out thou....cough!!

coming...

Build 16 has 1080P in-camera playback now.

Jim

[T. Glen Phelps]

What !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

[Evin Grant]

Hot, damn man! I suppose it's too much to ask if it's dual link? Eh?

[T. Glen Phelps]

Let us pray.

[david farland]

coming...
Build 16 has 1080P in-camera playback now.
Jim

Excellent......well done....

That's for dropping that little bombshell......

So I can playback (but not live monitor) through dual HD-SDI's?

Dave,

[Tim Fassnacht]

Hey Jim,


Look menu and interface with RedAlert! going to be enabled for B16? This is the most requested feature by DPs (outside of the current exposure issues) at the rental house I work with.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Tim

[David Battistella]

coming...

Build 16 has 1080P in-camera playback now.

Jim


Time Out!!!!!!

Did you just say that!

You just keep dropping 'dem bombs!

Thanks.

David

The question? Is it a clean output?

[Jannard]

Hey Jim,


Look menu and interface with RedAlert! going to be enabled for B16? This is the most requested feature by DPs (outside of the current exposure issues) at the rental house I work with.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Tim

You can import and export Looks in-camera and import into RED Alert! and Save as a preset... hope I got that right.

Jim

[Jannard]

Hot, damn man! I suppose it's too much to ask if it's dual link? Eh?

The roadmap is single link HD-SDI 1080P at 4:2:2- true progressive and dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 true progressive. All recorders or end monitors must support 1080P true progressive... like the Panasonic D5 and their monitors. You need a 3rd party convertor box for non-true progressive recording or monitoring. RED only supports true progressive in camera, monitoring and post.

Jim

[Evin Grant]

Wow, that will make quite a lot of nervous producers very happy.

[Jannard]

Wow, that will make quite a lot of nervous producers very happy.

Christmas in June...

Jim

[Steve Gibby]

The roadmap is single link HD-SDI 1080P at 4:2:2- true progressive and dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 true progressive. All recorders or end monitors must support 1080P true progressive... like the Panasonic D5 and their monitors. You need a 3rd party convertor box for non-true progressive recording or monitoring. RED only supports true progressive in camera, monitoring and post.

Jim

That's great news...:w00t:

Build 16 just keeps getting better and better...nice work guys....

[Steve Gibby]

Christmas in June...

Jim

Thanks Santa! Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry cool...

[Tico Llaurador]

Mega-Wow! I know some folks who will also be very happy to hear this.

Jim, you forgot to say "at no additional cost."

[Jannard]

Mega-Wow! I know some folks who will also be very happy to hear this.

Jim, you forgot to say "at no additional cost."

Single link HD-SDI 1080P 4:2:2 will cost you $2.95. Dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 will cost you $4.95. Make your checks out to:

Jim's Fiji Fund.

[Steve Gibby]

Single link HD-SDI 1080P 4:2:2 will cost you $2.95. Dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 will cost you $4.95. Make your checks out to:

Jim's Fiji Fund.

Saving up to buy Tavarua eh? "The RED Digital Cinema Workshops at Tavarua" has a nice ring to it...

[Keith Nealy]

You guys are amazing.

thanks, Jim

aloha,

Keith

[Jarred Land]

Jim said it but im going to say it again for the people that skip to the end.. Remember.. 1080 outputs are during playback only right now ( build 16 ).

[Alexander Nikishin]

1080P monitoring on playback?!?

I can finally buy that new JVC 24"!

Thank you Santa!

[Greg M]

Single link HD-SDI 1080P 4:2:2 will cost you $2.95. Dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 will cost you $4.95. Make your checks out to:

Jim's Fiji Fund.

checks in the mail.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jim said it but im going to say it again for the people that skip to the end.. Remember.. 1080 outputs are during playback only right now ( build 16 ).

Does this mean that there's a possibility that in future builds there could be 1080P live output or will this always be a playback only kind of thing?

Thanks guys!

[Gunleik Groven]

really. seriously. But this is exactly what you promised would never come...

I need build 16 last week + a month or two...

[Jason Sinclair]

Single link HD-SDI 1080P 4:2:2 will cost you $2.95. Dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 will cost you $4.95. Make your checks out to:

Jim's Fiji Fund.

That better not be the same island i have my eye on...

[David Battistella]

Jim said it but im going to say it again for the people that skip to the end.. Remember.. 1080 outputs are during playback only right now ( build 16 ).

Via SDI ONLY?

HDMI?

Is the LCD still 720P?

David

[Brook Willard]

That's pretty badass, guys. I didn't think the camera had the horsepower to do it! Great news... and very impressive.

[Mark Pugh]

Any chance of timecode out to go along with 1080P recording?

[Martin Ludwig]

Single link HD-SDI 1080P 4:2:2 will cost you $2.95. Dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 will cost you $4.95. Make your checks out to:

Jim's Fiji Fund.
per camera or per company?

[Deanan]

Per frame.

Build 16 replaces the CF reader with a dollar bill scanner.
It'll be cheap for the europeans.

[laguun]

Per frame.

Build 16 replaces the CF reader with a dollar bill scanner.
It'll be cheap for the europeans.

can we get a metric euro-bill scanner?

[Andrew M.]

Jim said it but im going to say it again for the people that skip to the end.. Remember.. 1080 outputs are during playback only right now ( build 16 ).

And I was wondering where you have found the CPU bandwidth for 1080p while compressing RAW during the recording.
I think once you have QT proxies there playing it at 1080p doesn`t take much CPU?

BTW does QT supports 4:4:4.
Anyway too easy to be true, just speculation.

[Andrew M.]

Per frame.

Build 16 replaces the CF reader with a dollar bill scanner.
It'll be cheap for the europeans.

And how much for HDMI output at 1080p?

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is very huge. on my god! Way to go RED team!

1080p...Jesus... Wow

Jay

[Stuart English]

really. seriously. But this is exactly what you promised would never come...

Not quite. We said we couldn't offer live 1080p outputs unless we had an RGB record mode.


But we noted the request. :construction:

So, we can now offer both 1080p 4:2:2 and RGB video outputs on playback of REDCODE RAW recordings.

The EVF and LCD will show the central 1280 x 720 pixels out of the 1920 x 1080 frame.

The HDMI will follow PREVIEW HD-SDI, so that would be 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p

HD-SDI interface already verified with Panasonic, JVC and Cine-tal monitors


.R3D and QuickTime files remain in RAW. Embedded timecode and audio status t.b.a.

[Ken Willinger]

You guys just made my morning!

[Steven-Marc C.]

Sounds interesting for checking critical focus right after the shot when in doubt.

[Andrew M.]

I thought that I will never live to see that!!!

HDMI 10 bit at 1080p 4:2:2

I think I will really write this check to the Jim's Fiji fund.
What's the SWIFT and acc number?
Would be nice if Jim will organize the RED training centre in Fiji so we could write off the trips there from taxes.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Just to keep this clear, Stuart, do I understand that what you are daying is that 1080p will happen, but in PLAYBACK MODE ONLY. There are still no real plans to get this feature to show up while recording.. I.E. a "live" output... Correct?

Want to make sure no one gets the wrong idea.

Jay

Or is this a matter of "not yet" :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim (Or whoever can answer),

One thing concerns me slightly.. With REDCine behind REDAlert, this effectively means non-mac users will have no way to process build 16 footage in the near future. Unless the SDK is coming out before REDCine.

Is there a chance that there may be a way to may proxy AVI files in RED, as a selection? Vs. Quicktime files? or that the Quicktime proxy files may indeed work in a PC?

Jay

[Steve Gibby]

So, we can now offer both 1080p 4:2:2 and RGB video outputs on playback of REDCODE RAW recordings.

The EVF and LCD will show the central 1280 x 720 pixels out of the 1920 x 1080 frame.

The HDMI will follow PREVIEW HD-SDI, so that would be 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p

HD-SDI interface already verified with Panasonic, JVC and Cine-tal monitors

Again, this is great news all around....

Question: In playback mode the EVF will show a cropped framing central 1280x848 pixels and the LCD will show a cropped framing central 1024x600 pixels out of the 1920x1080 frame - right?

Our team uses Cine-tal and Panasonic monitors in the field and at our studios, so that's also great news for us about the monitors verified for HD-SDI interface.

[Gunleik Groven]

Christmas in June...

[Stuart English]

Again, this is great news all around....

Question: In playback mode the EVF will show a cropped framing central 1280x848 pixels and the LCD will show a cropped framing central 1024x600 pixels out of the 1920x1080 frame - right?

Our team uses Cine-tal and Panasonic monitors in the field and at our studios, so that's also great news for us about the monitors verified for HD-SDI interface.

Almost, Gibby.

The EVF and LCD displays will represent the central 1280 x 720 pixels.

In the case of the LCD that data is scaled down to fit the 1024 x 600 pixel display.

[I Bloom]

This is no in-camera unsqueeze for anamorphic. There are external monitors that do this however.

Jim

I'm hoping that you may support this in the future. This is the main thing holding me back from taking anamorphics on to a real gig. Even if it isn't a perfect match to the lense, or the quality is not great... just subsampling the viewfinder to get a 2:1 unsqueeze, will make operating doable off the EVF and RED LCD.

IBloom

[Blair S. Paulsen]

How about the eCinema monitors?

[laguun]

good work, -but- besides the noise reduction & improved asa measurement...

will the R16 redcode raw be openend to 3hrd parties - as announced?

will the SDK become available - as announced?

[REDefine]

Laguun, If that happens along with release of build 16, then there is a real christmas in June.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jim (Or whoever can answer),

One thing concerns me slightly.. With REDCine behind REDAlert, this effectively means non-mac users will have no way to process build 16 footage in the near future. Unless the SDK is coming out before REDCine.

Is there a chance that there may be a way to may proxy AVI files in RED, as a selection? Vs. Quicktime files? or that the Quicktime proxy files may indeed work in a PC?

Jay

Hey Jay -

REDCine is always behind RA - but did I miss a post from the Red Team saying they would RELEASE B16 before releasing a REDCINE beta that works with B16?

I have no idea when they are releasing anything - but unless I missed something, I don't think it's been stated that the firmware will be released before there is a compatible version of Redcine.

And it's obviously not possible to release an SDK when the actual file format is in Alpha.

[Jannard]

We are working on getting REDCINE up to speed... we realize how important it is. SDK work will be top priority as soon as the build is done.

Jim

[mikeburton]

I'm hoping that you may support this in the future. This is the main thing holding me back from taking anamorphics on to a real gig. Even if it isn't a perfect match to the lense, or the quality is not great... just subsampling the viewfinder to get a 2:1 unsqueeze, will make operating doable off the EVF and RED LCD.

IBloom

Cast another vote for the anamorphic unsqueeze feature, please!

[Casey Green]

The roadmap is single link HD-SDI 1080P at 4:2:2- true progressive and dual link HD-SDI 1080P 4:4:4 true progressive. All recorders or end monitors must support 1080P true progressive... like the Panasonic D5 and their monitors. You need a 3rd party convertor box for non-true progressive recording or monitoring. RED only supports true progressive in camera, monitoring and post.

Jim

Thank you RED team. Sweet 16 keeps getting better and better!