Free Studio For Red Owners?

[TimPipher]

Here's an idea that just came to me -- maybe crazy, maybe not.

I am wrapping up the construction of a TV/Movie studio in the beautiful little coastal city of Vero Beach, Florida, about an hour north of West Palm Beach and an hour and a half or so south of Orlando. We're no more than three hours (and usually a lot less) from any point in Florida other than the Panhandle

It will be quite a facility:

Three high end cameras (two Sony F900r's, one Thomson Grass Valley Viper -- but now I'm thinking 3 Reds instead) in a studio configuration, complete with HD switcher, full studio lighting grid, dimmers, tons of lights, full audio equipment, HD monitors, full control room, camera jib with contols, tripods/pedestals etc., cabling etc., full Final Cut system, and a Sony HDCAM SR recording deck (SRW 5500 -- unless I find a better or cheaper solution at NAB -- I received some good ideas in a previous post).

My studio will consist of an 80 ft. greenscreen cyclorama (40 ft. across the back, 20 ft. up two sides), Ultimatte chromakeyers, and will have one of the first HD 3D Orad virtual studio systems in North America. We'll be able to load our vitual sets into our machine and offer live compositing. Combining that with our other high end gear, we (and you), I believe, will be able to get a lot of major league production done in our studio in a hurry. We have pre-production on a movie with very recognizable actors well underway.

By the way, we also offer two extremely luxurious motorhomes for the comfort of our (our your) cast and crew.

But here's what I'm leading up to:

Instead of buying the F900r's and Viper, would there be three Red owners (or one or two if they owned multiple Reds) who would allow their units to be stored at our facility when they're not being used by the owner? (They'd be fully insured and secured).

We would use the cameras in our studio, and in return the owner(s) of the Reds would be entitled to free studio time and use of my equipment and facility. Of course, we'd figure a fair trade ratio for the amount of studio time the Red owner would accumulate for each day or week he stored it at our facility.

Since the Red owner will be using his camera whenever he wants for his own projects, I'd actually need to work with more than three red owners. When Red owner Bill checks his Red out, Red owner John can check his Red in.

Keep in mind that with this deal, Bill and John will have use of three Reds instead of just the one he bought, and all the rest of the stuff too. Plus, his Red would receive far less wear and tear (probably no wear and tear at all) versus renting his camera out during his non-active time.

Does this plan for productive Red storage make sense?

[Tonaci Tran]

" (two Sony F900r's, one Thomson Grass Valley Viper -- but now I'm thinking 3 Reds instead)"

I know all those die hard experienced users will be annoyed by this statement..and yes I know I know.. why have faith in something not tried and true..tested for field etc etc...but you got to be crazy to even consider buying those cameras when red does 4k redcode raw and they don't..and when you could essentially have over 15 reds for the price of those three. By going the RED route, you will be shaving about 250,000 dollars from your budget.

but your idea aint a bad one. one thought ran through my head though.. considering three REDs amount up to 60,000..it seems like a miniscule investment compared to what you are already investing into your really nice studio. However, by grabbing redusers who reserved early, your shop could provide red rentals earlier than others.

[Clayton Farr]

I don't have a RED showing any time soon, nor do I live in Florida, but it sounds like a great idea for all involved Tim. Best of luck with it.

- Clayton

[TimPipher]

"but you got to be crazy to even consider buying those cameras when red does 4k redcode raw and they don't..and when you could essentially have over 15 reds for the price of those three. By going the RED route, you will be shaving about 250,000 dollars from your budget"

My thoughts exactly -- my concern is the timing -- I have no reservation(s) and don't want to wait until my number comes up. I figured I'd have to rent the Reds, then I got this idea.

But you're right on. Jim Jannard made a post aimed at the snobs on Cinematography.com (not everybody on Cinematography.com are video snobs, but the ones that Jannard aimed his post at are). It got me thinking -- if Jim Jannard is talking a little smack right before he's about to unveil his camera at NAB, he's darn certain that he's not going to be humiliating himself by demonstrating a camera that doesn't work. That gives me a great deal of confidence in Red. The way I look at it, Jannard's post at cinematography.com just saved (or made) me $250,000 bucks.

"considering three REDs amount up to 60,000..it seems like a miniscule investment compared to what you are already investing into your really nice studio".

Also very true. It wouldn't be a one for one trade (for example, one day with your Red = one day of studio time). My studio with crew and all equipment (including 3 reds, motorhomes etc) will be worth maybe $15,000 or $20,000per day -- maybe one day of full studio time for each month of Red loan, or 1/4 day for each week -- something like that?

"I don't a RED showing any time soon, nor do I live in Florida, but it sounds like a great idea for all involved Tim. Best of luck with it."

Thanks Tonaci and Clayton!

[david farland]

Tim,
I think you just killed it there with the 1 day to 1 month conversion!

However, I expect you will get offers to 'help out' reservation owners who may find they're a bit short on cash and rather than go to the end of the queue may ask for assistance from you while you bridge your gap waiting for you're own which I'm sure will be 1475~1477 from the sounds.
As stated why buy 'obsolete' cameras at many times the cost. Your scheme has a lot of merit and I hope it can help out some RED users as well as yourself.

Set the price right and i'm sure you'll get enough offers to do a Matrix style still-motion type shoot!

Good luck,

DF

[TimPipher]

"I think you just killed it there with the 1 day to 1 month conversion!"

David:

You may be right about the ratio -- I'd have to think it through more and I'm open to suggestions. My initial thinking was that my investment is $2,000,000 plus -- that's 50 times the investment of a fully tricked out Red (maybe $40,000). That would mean one day of studio time for every 50 days of Red use so one day to one month would be more than fair.

But as I said, I could be wrong -- I just came up with the idea and am open to suggestions.

Tim

[Steve Sherrick]

Interesting proposal, and it sounds like you're going to have a heck of a nice studio.

But I wonder if the better approach is to offer to rent the cameras from some of the reservation holders. Like was mentioned before, some may be looking to help pay for the cost of the camera and accessories and perhaps getting some rental income from it could help out. From a business perspective, if you plan to shoot a lot of stuff in your studio, then the rentals will certainly be worthwhile and I'm sure you could work out a monthly flat rate with people.

The only problem I see with your idea of trading off, is that if people with Reds are looking for studio time/space like you are offering, it's possible they will be using their cameras a lot. Who knows though. You may be onto something.

Either way, keep us updated on how this turns out because it's always interesting to see how these cameras will be deployed.

Steve

[Hrvoje Simic]

To me the plans makes sense. Maybe in the first few months it will be tricky finding people who can be more than a moment away from the cam they've been crazy about for so long, but eventually this may work fine. Wish you luck.

[Greg M]

This seems very strange to me...if you can afford to build a 2 million dollar studio...why dont you just buy the cameras?

[donatello b]

" My studio with crew and all equipment (including 3 reds, motorhomes etc) will be worth maybe $15,000 or $20,000 per day......one day of studio time for every 50 days of Red use "

seems 50 days of RED use = 50 x $1000-1500 per day = 50k + ... or is that 50 days of RED at your studio doesn't matter if used or not?

idea is good - i think you still need to work on the exchange details - current exchange rate plus location doesn't catch the interest of my 2 REDS ...

and are you saying that the 1 day of studio time with all the above = as in you pay for full crew etc ) ???..

from my POV - 20k or 20mil investment in the stage or if a camera is 1k or 1mil - it comes down to how much does the market pay for use of that equipment/stage ?
when i rent a stage it is al la carte - i pay for what i need and if i only need the stage and lights then it might be 2-4k day for a stage with 80ft cyc out in CA .. we don't know exactly what the RED will be but most can figure 1000-1500 day for usuable red with lenses, mbox, sticks etc ....
what doesn't work for most is we would have to go to florida to use that stage , so the expense of flying and bring whoever we need etc is added expense ...

[Chris Gearhart]

To me the plans makes sense. Maybe in the first few months it will be tricky finding people who can be more than a moment away from the cam they've been crazy about for so long, but eventually this may work fine. Wish you luck.

Yeah same thought. I hope to have my Reds working a fair portion of the year, but it could be a great deal for a narrow specialty or investor/hobbiest situation, where it is not running but a few projects.

I used to be in Vero Beach all the time (John's Island). Is it still sunny down there?

[TimPipher]

"This seems very strange to me...if you can afford to build a 2 million dollar studio...why dont you just buy the cameras?"

I could, and probably will. However:

1. I don't have a reservation and have no idea how long it will take to get three reds

2. $120,000 (three loaded Reds) in additional working capital would be significant to me (and a lot of business people, I suspect).


"when i rent a stage it is al la carte - i pay for what i need and if i only need the stage and lights then it might be 2-4k day for a stage with 80ft cyc out in CA"

True, some (most) wouldn't need all the stuff I'd be offering. But I'd also be paying in trade for days I wouldn't be using the camera -- some days the cameras will be just be sitting there. My idea won't work for everyone, only those who would have a need for the bulk of the things I offer such as the virtual system.

"what doesn't work for most is we would have to go to florida to use that stage , so the expense of flying and bring whoever we need etc is added expense ... "

Probably my idea would only appeal to those in Florida. On the other hand, my set up is different enough that if all my services are needed, there may not be a like facility available at the time you need it in Cali -- certainly not that will rent for barter. We'll also have crew here -- maybe you could cut down on your transportation of personnel. Some people might even be glad to come to Florida, especially those that are in the north in winter -- and this isn't a bad place to spend a little time, especially if you like nice weather, the beach and a little golf and tennis.

I don't expect everybody to race over and drop off their Reds, but if there are a few out there that have needs and situations that match up with my facility and aims, it might be worth the discussion. Then again, maybe not. Needless to say, it would have to work for everyone involved.

[TimPipher]

"To me the plans makes sense. Maybe in the first few months it will be tricky finding people who can be more than a moment away from the cam they've been crazy about for so long, but eventually this may work fine. Wish you luck".

"Yeah same thought. I hope to have my Reds working a fair portion of the year, but it could be a great deal for a narrow specialty or investor/hobbiest situation, where it is not running but a few projects".

"I used to be in Vero Beach all the time (John's Island). Is it still sunny down there?"

Thanks Omen and Lakeview. Lakeview, it's always sunny down here. Why don't you drop Reds 659 and 816 off here for a few months and renew your connection to Vero?

Steve Sherrick: Thanks for your comments. By the way, I have close relatives named Sherrick -- originally from Alberta, now living in Ft. Myers FL.

[Adam C Lubkin]

Tim, best of luck with your project. Personally I hope to have my Red rented out when I'm not shooting, but your proposal is intriguing and I appreciate that you're thinking outside the box on this. Creative thinking seems to be a common quality around here, which helps make it a fun place to visit.

[david farland]

all this aside there is going to be a bunch of people round Florida or access to fedex with RED camera sitting there doing diddley who could send it to tim.

I guess the real question is after people get home with their new baby could they part with it for a month while it earns credit for studio or dollars for loaning it out.

On the Oz user group we've mentioned this with regards to lending your camera to other Redusers in return for same service.

I guess all that's left is the security in handing it to Tim, wear & tear, breakage issue (not having it for a bit while it's fixed) and what's a competive rate for barter/rent agreement.
We're trying to help you help us Tim...great to see you involved ...hey maybe start a local user group!.......run some open days with Red camera etc.....protecting a $2M investment with new RED cameras and workflow will need close monitoring of technology i.e.what problems could/will arise and who knows it may drum up more business for you.

Cheers,



Cheers,

[TimPipher]

Thanks Adaml and David. I'd do my best to alleviate your concerns about theft (by outsiders or me). First of all, my building is an absolute bunker -- no windows and built to withstand 300 mph+ winds. It's also built with pure concrete and steel -- even the roof. It would be virtually impossible to break into and I'd encourage anyone to check my facility and me out closely before trusting me with your stuff. I'd also add the camera owner to my insurance policy as loss-payee. You might also take some comfort in the fact that I'd be spending a lot of money for the purpose of stealing a Red camera or two, if that was my aim. It might be cheaper to just offer original purchasers five or ten times their purchase price for their cameras -- as excited as Red buyers are, I could probably convince a few owners to sell me their cameras and get back in the Red line. As for wear, tear and breakage, since it would be used only in-studio under close supervision, it would probably remain pristine. I could guarantee to fix any damage, scratches etc. in the unlikely event that they should occur.

That being said, my idea might not that be great or might only make sense as a stop gap until my Red number comes up. I'd be interested in anyone's wild guess as to when I would receive three Reds if ordered the first day of next week's NAB. (Don't worry - I'm fully aware that any estimates would be complete guesses, but the people on this forum probably have a better feel for that estimate than anyone else I could ask).

Thanks!

[Adam C Lubkin]

I would guess around the end of the year.

[david farland]

They're hoping to fulfill the first 1475 cameras by Oct / Nov 07

stop press: didn't see your post Adam

[TimPipher]

How many reservations have been made now, and how many more do you guess will be made on day 1 of NAB?

[david farland]

1475 to date.

Depends on the reservation process. Ask on main page if NAB attendees get preference. If I had to guess I'd say about....no can't guess.

Last time I think they took 300/400 on the day. Might be wrong. usual online process was email orders were processed in order that RED HQ (Kelly) received them.
Cheers,

[Michael Schrengohst]

Here's an idea that just came to me -- maybe crazy, maybe not.
Three high end cameras (two Sony F900r's, one Thomson Grass Valley Viper -- but now I'm thinking 3 Reds instead) in a studio configuration, complete with HD switcher, full studio lighting grid, dimmers, tons of lights, full audio equipment, HD monitors, full control room, camera jib with contols, tripods/pedestals etc., cabling etc., full Final Cut system, and a Sony HDCAM SR recording deck (SRW 5500 -- unless I find a better or cheaper solution at NAB -- I received some good ideas in a previous post).



If I were in your position, I would talk to Jim directly.
Just the marketing tweak alone should get his interest. Anyone building a facility like yours who was going to go Sony/Viper and now wants RED......

[Curran Giddens]

I would be interested if the cyc I plan on using in a year or so (5 minutes away) is unavailable. I'm hoping Doug Trumbull still owns it, and will rent it to me for cheap. I am also counting on earning some income between the day I get my RED, and when I need to use it next year.

[Dave Neathery]

It certainly sounds interesting. I made the mistake of ordering only one red (340) and I need at least 2 to do my production. We are in the process of trying to set up a studio with chroma screen here. We are finding that in the Orlando area, it is getting really difficult to find suitable real estate. Our present facility is just too small.
Keep me posted please, I am definately interested.

Dave