Dalsa Evolution Camera

[Michael Brennan]

http://www.dalsa.com/dc/news/news.asp?itemID=275

The Dalsa Origin camera due to its size and form had the title of whale cam, following the maritime theme, the new smaller Dalsa Evolution 4k camera could be called Dolphin cam.


It follows that Jim's camera once thought to be a RED Herring, in comparison to the Dalsa in price and size can be called a Minow :clown2:


Mike
PS price of evolution camera not yet revealed but I'm paddling in safe waters...

[Andrew M.]

Can’t buy it can’t use it for underwater.
Why they do not want to sell it?
Product is still unstable?

[Jim Arthurs]

Seven pounds lighter? Looks like they shaved off the weight of a RED...

I was curious if they were going to try for some similiar compression scheme as REDCODE, as this is one of the few areas where they could strike back with a workflow improvement without a significant camera redesign.

I guess not.

[Keith Alan Morris]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3icfbe278b3e72ce8cd68b31ca6dc478db

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Won't even be available for about a year... Does it actually have a full 4K CCD array or is it using a linear sensor with a spinning mirror and prism system?

[PaulClements]

I like the fact that on the Dalsa website it says "4k... the emerging quality standard for image capture and archiving of motion picture content".

It's encouraging that Red's likeliest biggest competition won't be pushing for a different standard. To do so would be a real pain in the film to digital transition.

I'd love to see the prices on those Anamorphic digital lenses, and whether they'll be usable on RedOne, they will be PL mount so that's promising enough, it's just whether they are arranged specifically for the Dalsa Sensor that would be an issue. They'd have a larger market there if they made it to fit RedOne.

Hopefully they'll be at NAB and have a play around sticking them on the RedOne, I'm sure Jim would welcome it, he's always had good words to say about Dalsa. Though I've no idea whether Dalsa would allow it or not.

[Anders Holck]

High res image:
http://www.dalsa.com/dc/images/DALSA%20Evolution%20Camera.jpg

[PaulClements]

It's funny how they've gone for the Evolution tagline in place of Red's Revolution tagline.

[Tonaci Tran]

even though they trimmed weight, it still looks bulky. The main bottleneck will be the data rate of recording. Red's redcode raw is the only reason why it's possible to record with onboard flash media like red-raid, CF, express and 1.8 satas. Lets see if this will even be put out for purchase. They will have to come up with something compelling to justify charging 3 grand for rentals considering red's purchase price. From the looks of it.. workflow wise..Red appears to be as easy as working with the hvx200 and p2. Shoot, offload, redcine to whatever you want. I wonder if this new dalsa cam still requires the rental of the 1,500 per day data recorder.

[Sam Druckerman]

I'd love to see the prices on those Anamorphic digital lenses, and whether they'll be usable on RedOne, they will be PL mount so that's promising enough, it's just whether they are arranged specifically for the Dalsa Sensor that would be an issue. They'd have a larger market there if they made it to fit RedOne.

That would be cool.

Maybe in the future Jim will make one.

[Evin Grant]

Beam me up Scotty. Now there's a body the federation would be proud of. Does that thing run on di-lithium crystals?
http://www.reduser.net/evin/DALSAStartrek.jpg

[shaftbond]

seriously. i was thinking they could start shooting Battlestar Galactica with this thing...it'd fit right in.

[IAN SUN]

Seven pounds lighter? Looks like they shaved off the weight of a RED...

I was curious if they were going to try for some similiar compression scheme as REDCODE, as this is one of the few areas where they could strike back with a workflow improvement without a significant camera redesign.

I guess not.

They alluded to a 2:1 "mathematically lossless" compression scheme. 2:1 vs RED Code 12:1 "visually losless"... mmm.

[Häakon]

In the Hollywood Reporter article they're really pushing the anamorphic angle... "This will be the first time that a CinemaScope 2.40 composition will be captured using the entire sensor area of a digital camera. Now you can capture 2.40 without any compromise in resolution." While this is true, I almost feel like 4K is already so much resolution as it is that cropping to 2.4 from a 16:9 image isn't really going to have that much of an impact. Plus, you lose the ability to reframe in post, and you also have to deal with the other side-effects of anamorphic lenses (which, admittedly, some do like). Don't get me wrong; it's cool that they're squeezing as much resolution from the camera as they can, but anamorphic to me has always been akin to the "what's wider - a square or a rectangle?" argument. The answer, of course, depends on the height of the square. :-)

[Zakaree Sandberg]

can we not capture 2.40?

[Jeremy Hughes]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/121_1176237647.jpg

That looks better...

Sorry for the size though. And the interpolated logos.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

In the Hollywood Reporter article they're really pushing the anamorphic angle... "This will be the first time that a CinemaScope 2.40 composition will be captured using the entire sensor area of a digital camera. Now you can capture 2.40 without any compromise in resolution." While this is true, I almost feel like 4K is already so much resolution as it is that cropping to 2.4 from a 16:9 image isn't really going to have that much of an impact. Plus, you lose the ability to reframe in post, and you also have to deal with the other side-effects of anamorphic lenses (which, admittedly, some do like). Don't get me wrong; it's cool that they're squeezing as much resolution from the camera as they can, but anamorphic to me has always been akin to the "what's wider - a square or a rectangle?" argument. The answer, of course, depends on the height of the square. :-)

I don't see the anamorphic aspect of the Dalsa being that great. It's still only capturing 4K x 2K resolution. A RED One fitted with a proper anamorphic lens should do everything the Evoloution can in terms of resolution and possibly a bit more.

Cropping 2.40:1 (or even 2.5x:1) out of a 16:9 4K frame on the RED still gives you 4K x 1.7K at 2.40:1.

As discussed a while back, the real advantage to anamorphic glass wouldn't necessarily be resolution. But rather the effects that shooting anamorphic has for bokeh, peripheral motion, etc... And what that could mean for the look of your production.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Why would u slap a red logo on a dalsa?

[Michael Brennan]

In the Hollywood Reporter article they're really pushing the anamorphic angle... "This will be the first time that a CinemaScope 2.40 composition will be captured using the entire sensor area of a digital camera. Now you can capture 2.40 without any compromise in resolution." While this is true....

(Assuming the quote is accurate) the statement is incorrect.
Using the Canon anamorphic adapter it has been possible for a year or so to use full sensor area of a digital camera to capture 2.40 on Viper, f950 or f900.



Mike

[Pol Turrents]

(Assuming the quote is accurate) the statement is incorrect.
Using the Canon anamorphic adapter it has been possible for a year or so to use full sensor area of a digital camera to capture 2.40 on Viper, f950 or f900.
Mike

I did the first movie with anamorphics on HD wordlwide :tongue:
http://www.canon-europe.com/TV-Products/News/anamorphic_converter_story.asp?ComponentID=320038&SourcePageID=33108

[Jeremy Hughes]

Why would u slap a red logo on a dalsa?

To REDize it. You're supposed to imagine it's a RED camera. I guess the picture didn't establish that. :mellow:

Edit: Also it covers up the Dalsa logo. And the picture has a Cooke logo on the lens.

[Craig Ryan]

If one were to shoot with RED at 4.5k RAW, and crop to 2.40:1 the resolution would be roughly 4520x1883, versus the proposed 4k with anamorphic lens being 5530x2304. So a respectable difference, and into the 5k territory. And do go even further...if one were to take advantage of Redcode RAW's workflow and shoot onboard 4k, they'd have to crop to 4096x1707 for 2.40:1. I think most people would be more than fine with the latter, but having the extra resolution would be sweet of course!

But I am confused as to how this would be projected. I guess the positive aspects of using an anamorphic lens for digital projection would be the oversampling effect, assuming the Sony 4k is capable of a maximum resolution of 4096x1707 with the 2.40:1 aspect ratio; unless of course you could put the same anamorphic lens on the projector itself and maintain the full resolution? The advantage for scanning to film is obvious. I'm just trying to get an idea of what kind of advantages there would be. Also, please correct any math errors I may have made...I double checked most of them ehhh...

[Häakon]

(Assuming the quote is accurate) the statement is incorrect.
Using the Canon anamorphic adapter it has been possible for a year or so to use full sensor area of a digital camera to capture 2.40 on Viper, f950 or f900.

Mike
Sorry, I was just going by their press release. If it's wrong, Dalsa are the ones lying! :bleh:

I've honestly never been too excited about the look of anamorphic and I don't personally shoot any of my films this way, but I realize it's completely subjective and there are plenty of people who do like it.

[Greg Greene]

just have a question about this camera and others like it, anyone know why the are so big/bulky in size? (compared to red)

GT

[Clayton Harper]

Does this thing have a physical shutter and optical VF?

EDIT: It does!

This is a step in the right direction for Dalsa. I have ignored that bug honker in the past based on form factor but now its not so bad. I think Optical VF is a huge differentiator for them, especially with the high end crowd.

I wonder how many other 4k announcements we're gonna see next week.

[Andrew M.]

Don’t forget that Dalsa is 8MP sensor and this is a bit marginal for 4K.
I will call it 3.5K format or good 2K with safety margin.
Did they disclose what sensor they will be using on the new portable camera though?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If one were to shoot with RED at 4.5k RAW, and crop to 2.40:1 the resolution would be roughly 4520x1883, versus the proposed 4k with anamorphic lens being 5530x2304.

Yes, but the 5530/5K stuff is just upscaled 4K. You're really only making a gain in the vertical resolution. Which could be a good thing if handled properly. In order to preserve that added resolution we would now need systems and post processes capable of 5.5K resolutions.


But I am confused as to how this would be projected. I guess the positive aspects of using an anamorphic lens for digital projection would be the oversampling effect, assuming the Sony 4k is capable of a maximum resolution of 4096x1707 with the 2.40:1 aspect ratio; unless of course you could put the same anamorphic lens on the projector itself and maintain the full resolution? The advantage for scanning to film is obvious.

The Sony projector actually is 3.8K and not true 4K. But it's close enough... You're right, an anamorphic lens for projection would be needed to really see the benefits of the added vertical resolution.

One other thing to keep in mind (and this confuses me with the Dalsa) is that as the sensor area widens out (1.78:1 RED, 2.40:1 Dalsa) the need for and in return, the effects, of horizontal compression anamorphic glass are diminished. But we don't know much of anything about Dalsa's upcoming anamorphics and what they may offer in terms of vertical compression or if they're just trying to capitalize on the whole anamorphic buzzword marketing and the fact that their camera "does it".

[Häakon]

Does this thing have a physical shutter and optical VF?

EDIT: It does!

This is a step in the right direction for Dalsa. I have ignored that bug honker in the past based on form factor but now its not so bad. I think Optical VF is a huge differentiator for them, especially with the high end crowd.

I agree with you here, though I imagine these things (especially the viewfinder) are going to hike the price way up and out of most independent filmmakers' range. One of the reasons RED is so revolutionary is that it not only delivers massive 4K resolution, but at a price that's 1/10th the cost of anyone else.

[Clayton Harper]

I agree with you here, though I imagine these things (especially the viewfinder) are going to hike the price way up and out of most independent filmmakers' range. One of the reasons RED is so revolutionary is that it not only delivers massive 4K resolution, but at a price that's 1/10th the cost of anyone else.

Don't get me wrong. I think Dalsa at best is gonna be used by people with a lot of production money. I personally find optical vf to be irrelevant when shooting video because you're basically watching your dailies on the camera. Red has given us the best of both worlds with their EVF design. We get the WYSIWYG aspects plus the lookaround area.

Why didn't I make my reservation on the first day of NAB last year instead of the second? Haakon, I am super jealous of your #80 reservation although for some reason I still got the thanks for being in the 100 club card. Let's all pray the delivery schedule is merciful.

[Jeremy Hughes]

I don't think this'll be that much competition for RED. But It'll steal some attention away from some people who want to switch from 35mm to 4K. Some people anyway. Not everybody. It'll just delay their decision for a while. They might be a bit more comfortable with this one.

But what do I know?

[postmaster]

If one were to shoot with RED at 4.5k RAW, and crop to 2.40:1 the resolution would be roughly 4520x1883, versus the proposed 4k with anamorphic lens being 5530x2304.

I'm also confused by the anamorphics they're building.
If a 2.40 extraction out of a 4k x 2k is
4096x1707, then by using the anamorphics you're only
gaining a total of 341 pixels. Wouldn't the softening
on the unsqueeze pass negate the 341 pixels gained
in vert resolution?

2:1 is so close to 2.40 that the slightly oblong flares could
be annoying by not being anamorphic enough.

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, I think that it's not anamorphic enough to get anamorphic junkies excited, and so near to being square as not to get any noticible resolution benefit, while causing unnecessary bother for the VFX team. And to do all of that, you've got to get special new lenses that aren't designed for anything else.... Right...

Graeme

[Andrew M.]

In the new market it is good to have one or two competitors.
If you do not have anybody to compete with you, people are afraid that maybe this technology will not last or they just don’t trust the product at all.
By having at least one competitor you are proving that the product is legitimate and customer can even compare the prices features and performance.
If anything Dalsa is putting it’s credibility behind 4K market.
Also they are much better and bigger business in the sensors market and Dalsa I think, it is just prove of concept, kind of application testing kit for theirs sensor, otherwise they will sale this machine.

[Graeme Nattress]

I'm very happy to have high quality competition. It's the competition and the customer that drive you to greatness.

Graeme

[Clayton Harper]

I'm very happy to have high quality competition. It's the competition and the customer that drive you to greatness.

Graeme

I am looking forward to seeing the new greatness in person on Monday hopefully with a variety of lighting conditions. :)

[Petr Dvorak]

Yep xactly, it strongly stimulate progress :matrix:


I'm very happy to have high quality competition. It's the competition and the customer that drive you to greatness.

Graeme