Nikon Mount - Shifty Lens Play?

[Rick Darge]

I dont know why this is but ever since I received my Nikon mount, all of my Nikon lenses have a very small amount of play within the mount itself. I heard about another Reduser having this issue. It's only a few mm in both directions, but its def there. The mount in my Nikon F3 firmly holds all my lenses in place.

Is this a common hiccup or are only a few people experiencing it?

If people dont know what I'm talking about, I'll post a video with my iSight.

[Anthony Gratl]

If people dont know what I'm talking about, I'll post a video with my iSight.

please do....

[Rick Darge]

http://www.theredshooter.com/Movie-iPhone.m4v

[Anthony Gratl]

thanks dude. i'll check it out...

[Anthony Gratl]

wtf indeed. Anyone else have this problem?

[Kenn Michael]

I have the same amount of lens play on my mount.

[C.H.Haskell]

Strange? I am very interested in this mount, has this play effected you other wise in regards to operating with it?

[Rick Darge]

The play has no effect on the image at all, as far as I can tell.

I only notice it when I am using my 17-35 and have to adjust iris. the natural stiffness of the ring, causes the lens to shift within the mount. i'm hoping that after i de-click the iris wheel, it won't be as noticeable. I'm just wondering why there is play in the Red Nikon mount but no play in my Nikon still camera... Red?

[Ralph N Madison]

I have the same problem with my Red Nikon mount. No other mount that I have tried (on still cameras) have any play at all. I have been asking Red for a replacement that has no play but I am starting to think that they don't have such a thing.


I did not install the mount myself. I had a local lens expert do that. His take on it was that the machine work on the mount was lacking.

They want me to send this mount back but I can't since I would have to give up shooting with the camera until they send me a mount back. I have no PL glass. I did offer to give Red my cc# so they do a swap but they did not even respond to that idea. I don't have a lot of cash right now but when I can I will order a third party mount and send this dog back.

Or the Red gods (Jim) might swoop down and make this right. One can only hope. I love this camera just not the Nikon mount

[Kenn Michael]

Aside from the play (which doesn't affect footage) the mount works great! Loving the vibe from the Nikkors.

[Ralph N Madison]

I think some mounts may have more play than others. I have so much movement that I am afraid the back of the lens (the ears?) will be affected over time.

[Rick Darge]

Yea, I know what you mean, the ears on my 17-35 have little scuffs all over the place.. Ralph, if you have time, post a clip of your play, I just want to see if its like mine, if this is a common issue or not and what Red can do in the future to solve it for their customers. Like I and others have said, no image issues as of yet, but a lens is the last thing you want to have loose on a camera system

[Sanjin Jukic]

Upcoming PST IMS has so called the Professional (Nikon) F - Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System that hasn't all those ordinary Nikon F - mount problems.

[Rick Darge]

Any idea what this will cost Sanjin?

[Andrew Benz]

Richard, thanks man for putting that video together to show the problem.

Any word yet Sanjin about the warranty issues with Red over this conversion? I am all ears and eyes on this front as well...

P+S Technik IMS mount + Leica 50mm F1 Noctilux x Build 16 = Pure Joy...

[Rick Darge]

No prob, what types of lenses does the IMS mount take? Leica & Nikon? Excuse my ignorance

[Sanjin Jukic]

€ 1.500 for IMS + € 480 for professional F mount + € 1.980

that should be about US $ 3.000 for this set up.

But don't forget you get PST IMS and before or after use of Nikons you are immediately ready to swap your RED 18-50mm PL, without...etc...

If you buy some other IMS mounts you get even more diverse lens option...

MORE >>> (http://www.pstechnik.de/en/pr_080410_imsfrontred.php)

[Rick Darge]

Nevermind, http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-ims-red.php

[Sanjin Jukic]

No prob, what types of lenses does the IMS mount take? Leica & Nikon? Excuse my ignorance

"The following lens mounts can be used with the P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System on the RED camera: Arri PL Mount, Panavision Mount, BNC-R Mount, Professional F-Mount, Nikon F-Mount, Canon EF-Mount, Canon FD-Mount, Contax Mount, Leica-R Mount and Leica-M Mount.

Also the Sony B4-Mount and the C-Mount can be used, but due to their design for 2/3” chips, they project only a picture of 2/3” size. In the future, also the P+S Technik IMS Optical Viewfinder, can be used with the new designed IMS camera front !"

LINK>>> (http://www.pstechnik.de/en/pr_080410_imsfrontred.php)

[Rick Darge]

This is amazing, I don't know why I'm half-discovering this now,



Sanjin, do you know when they are going to release this? Looks like an awesome investment

[Sanjin Jukic]

This is amazing, I don't know why I'm half-discovering this now,



Sanjin, do you know when they are going to release this? Looks like an awesome investment

Very soon.

Stay tuned.

[Martin Weiss]

Birger soon or proper soon ;) ?

If I have say 7 Contax and 2 PL lenses, do I then need 2 or 9 adapters?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Just 2 adapters and PST IMS.

Or Zeiss-Contax and PL to PST IMS.

[C.H.Haskell]

Can you folks point me to a thread that reviews the RED nikon mount with pics...no having luck at the moment.

[Evin Grant]

Sanjin, how does one collimate the IMS mount?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, how does one collimate the IMS mount?

Still is not clear and remains unknown.

I asked and they wrote me that each user will get "an instruction how to assemble the IMS front to your camera on your own".

That should conclude somehow that the mount is already "the PST factory collimated".

So if I can understand this message well it means that each lens should be collimated before by any standard collimator.

But all that I will leave open till I get a final report in a couple of days.

[Steve Sherrick]

Two things:

1. It has been mentioned by Jarred that this mount will void the warranty. So unless that has changed or will change, you need to be aware of that.

2. I would think that if you are going to do the installation yourself, this would probably for sure void the warranty.

Having said that, I have not heard whether the Birger mount voids the warranty, and certainly the Nikon mount doesn't, so maybe there will be some changes in policy at some point.

I love the idea of a universal mount as long as each mounting system works as well as it would in its native form. Looking forward to hearing more about it.

I'll post my Nikon mount video in a little bit.

[Steve Sherrick]

Here's the link to the video.

http://gallery.mac.com/stevesherrick#100000

[Evin Grant]

Here's the deal guys. The mount in the Red Nikon Mount is actually a spare part from Nikon (I'm pretty sure). It was originally designed for an extension tube and thus was made to be as thin as possible. This enables it to replace the PL mount without removing the self collimating feature. Because of the thinness of the mount it cannot be as secure as a proper SLR mount, this in a trade off and not a design flaw. Hopefully the Birger will be more secure seeing as it has to replace the whole lens mount assembly.

[Steve Sherrick]

And it really doesn't affect image at all, and the lens isn't going to fall out. I figured it was due to the way it is integrated with the PL mount.

[Jarred Land]

We need to actually see the Birger mount before we can comment on the warranty implications.

Evin's statement is false.. and didnt come from the manufacturer or us.. so take his comment with a grain of salt.

[Rick Darge]

So Jarred, what causes that minor looseness then?

[Steve Sherrick]

Before this spirals into a knock on the Nikon mount, let's make sure we clarify that it does not affect image and is really only noticeable to me when I wiggle the lens. Not when I'm focusing and changing aperture.

[Joel Kaye]

The play has no effect on the image at all, as far as I can tell.
...I'm just wondering why there is play in the Red Nikon mount but no play in my Nikon still camera... Red?

I've got some play, but I don't have a lens where the play affects either the image or the focusing. That is to say, if I focus the lens normally there is no play. If I grab the lens and rotate I can force the play. I have seen some lenses play more/easier than others.

It is important to be aware there are lenses whose focus mechanism does shift the image while focusing. That's not a problem caused by the Nikon mount.

[Evin Grant]

Jarred, I don't understand why this is an issue, it's a perfectly reasonable approach to making a Nikon mount and the play is a non-issue. If you've re-manufactured the K3 mount to tighter tolerances please let us know. Otherwise you can buy a replacement Nikon K3 mount at B&H...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/366996-USA/Nikon_2717_K3_Female_Nikon_Bayonet.html

Here is the Nikon K3 extension ring...
http://glennview.com/jpgs/35mm/nikon/k3/small_1.jpg
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/366996.jpg

Here is Red's Nikon Mount...
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/RedNikon.jpg

I've used the Red Nikon mount on a few jobs now, including second unit for a major feature film and it's preformed exquisitely.
And even the mount on my D3 has a little play. NO Nikon mount is positive lock!

[HD Hildebrand]

Mine moves and slightly shifts the image.

EDIT: I should add that it does not shift on a focus pull (focus rings turn with less tension), however the zoom rings have more tension and "can" cause the lens to shift in the mount if you are not careful or if you're aggressive, causing a slight shift in the image when it turns. It's not like an optical change, it's more like the image can move clockwise or counter-clockwise slightly - perhaps 1/4 of a degree.

[Anthony Gratl]

Mine moves and slightly shifts the image.

EDIT: I should add that it does not shift on a focus pull (focus rings turn with less tension), however the zoom rings have more tension and cause the lens to shift in the mount, slightly shifting the image when it turns.


well that's not good. This was a problem to me even without planetearth's post that goes one step further into the realm of real problem (i can only image that the movement increases with use and time as the mount gets worn, being as it's so thin and not snug to begin with)....

[Anthony Gratl]

And even the mount on my D3 has a little play. NO Nikon mount is positive lock!

Not to be contradictory Evin, but to me those videos aren't showing 'a little play' on a high end piece of photographic equipment. That play seems way over acceptable tolerances.
Mind you, I don't get into the details on technical specs, but if people are having movement on the lens, and now a report of the image shifting during a zoom, that's a red flag that ought to be addressed.

[Evin Grant]

The Nikon "F" mount was never designed to be a "Cinema" mounting solution. If you cannot work within it's capabilities rent or buy a set of PL mount lenses. The whole point of PL (Positive Lock) is to eliminate all movement at the mounting point. The PL does this quite well, whereas the Nikon mount was designed for quick, single handed removal and attachment of still lenses onto still cameras. Now we have the opportunity to use theses very well designed optics in an area that they are not intended. That does not make them a less viable option just one that needs to be considered as a price/performance relationship. No still zoom lens in it's original barrel will track like a cinema zoom regardless of the mount. By far my biggest issue with using still lenses (Now that I own cinema glass too) is the lack of distance and witness marks, all still lenses will have to be focused off the monitor, which is slower and much less comfortable to trained 1st ACs. But they will figure it out and it'll be fine as long as you can take the time hit.
If you're going light weight one man band though the Nikon's offer a distinct performance/weight advantage over cinema optics.

[Steve Sherrick]

As Evin has pointed out, the nikon solution is very useable in its current configuration. The play in the mount has been a non-issue and in fact I only took a look more carefully after Richard brought it up. I was curious. There is no doubt in my mind that still lenses will become even more popular with the Red especially once view factor and birger are on the scene. And if the p+s technic is used as well, even more will look to still lenses as an alternative to cine lenses.

But cine lenses clearly have some advantages right now, positive lock being one of them.

[Ryan Gibb]

We were getting play with our mount as well. Especially with our 17 to 35mm. We were able to fix a lot of the play by stretching out the ramps on the inside of the mount. I don't know exactly how to explain this but I'll try. If you look on the backside of the mount there are three ramps that give pressure on the lens to hold it in place. They are like slits or look kind of like leaf springs, but one side isn't attached. You can push (bend) them out and they put more pressure on lens which holds it in place much better. We got the idea cause had another nikon mount for another camera where they were out much further and the Red Nikon mount came bent in. Anyways I hope you guys can figure out what I mean from this post but it has helped out a lot since we did that. We still get a little bit of a shift when we pull focus.

[Jarred Land]

We are looking into this.. there may be a simple fix for you guys that want a "tighter" fit, almost along the lines of what beans mcgibb suggests (nice name btw) , but a little more elegant, since the solution for a tighter fit is in the springs. As many said here.. play is somewhat normal in the fundamental design of the still-mount, and making the springs tighter may make some lenses not fit, but we are always looking to make things better :)

[Martin Weiss]

The Nikon "F" mount was never designed to be a "Cinema" mounting solution. If you cannot work within it's capabilities rent or buy a set of PL mount lense.

Is that also the case for the Canon Mount? Can we thus expect similar "wiggling" with the perpetually upcoming Birger Mount?

[Michael Hastings]

Is that also the case for the Canon Mount? Can we thus expect similar "wiggling" with the perpetually upcoming Birger Mount?

I have a version of the Birger canon mount and I have used it as a dumb mount with zeiss contax/yashica lenses and nikons via adapters. It is very well made so lenses don't shift much but remember once you get to the real electronic birger mount working with EF lenses you won't have the shifting because focus would be done via the electronic motors and the focus knob of the birger mount. It is another thing that makes the birger mount such a powerful innovation. Focus range will be "mapped" to the follow focus knob - I believe it is 360 degrees by default but eventually that should be user programmmable, with stops and possibly ramps, breathing correction on zooms, etc.

By the way, the birger mount makes a good universal manual "dumb" mount because the short flange focal distance of EF lenses means almost everything else works with simple mechanical adapters. I have used contax yashica zeiss lenses (which are basically the same as the zeiss zf nikon mounts - except they focus in the "right" direction.), nikon lenses, pentax m42, all with adapters and good results. You can also use Leica-R and others.

[Anthony Gratl]

I have a version of the Birger canon mount and I have used it as a dumb mount with zeiss contax/yashica lenses and nikons via adapters. It is very well made so lenses don't shift much but remember once you get to the real electronic birger mount working with EF lenses you won't have the shifting because focus would be done via the electronic motors and the focus knob of the birger mount. It is another thing that makes the birger mount such a powerful innovation. Focus range will be "mapped" to the follow focus knob - I believe it is 360 degrees by default but eventually that should be user programmmable, with stops and possibly ramps, breathing correction on zooms, etc.

By the way, the birger mount makes a good universal manual "dumb" mount because the short flange focal distance of EF lenses means almost everything else works with simple mechanical adapters. I have used contax yashica zeiss lenses (which are basically the same as the zeiss zf nikon mounts - except they focus in the "right" direction.), nikon lenses, pentax m42, all with adapters and good results. You can also use Leica-R and others.

This all sounds great and very encouraging. Now the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not the birger mount voids warranty....

[C.H.Haskell]

Great to hear Jarred, I would not expect anything less from you guys.

Nikon users, what would you say is a great or a must have lens for your RED ONE nikon set? Everyone seems to have the 17-35.

[Steve Sherrick]

17-35 zoom
some midrange primes (maybe 35mm 2.0, 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4)
80-200 zoom

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Steve.

[Steve Sherrick]

Do you want to be run & gun or more cine setup? If run & gun the 2 zooms could get you by for a while.

[C.H.Haskell]

I do both really...but I lean towards the cine.

[Jeremy Newmark]

We've been shooting a lot of nature footage with the nikon mount recently, using the 17-35, 28-70 and 80-200 in a run and gun fashion. All three lenses have been producing gorgeous images. For that type of shooting the 80-200 has been the workhorse for sure. The 17-35 is wonderful and the 28-70 has seen the least amount of action, but that's not due to quality, just the needs of the shot. We do get the lens play on the mount, but it does not effect the image in any way on any of the 10 or so nikkor lenses we've tested.

[Steve Sherrick]

Just did some shooting in Rockport with the lenses you mentioned (excluding the 28-70. Beautiful stuff.

But I can confirm for those who have asked about zooming, forget about it. I tested the 80-200 and there is no way to do a manual zoom without the image shifting left to right. I haven't tried a zoom on the 17-35, but I would assume the same results. You lock in at a focal length and stay there. But I don't do zooms unless instructed to for style and it won't be an issue for me most of the time.

I will say that if you plan on using the zooms with follow focus units and want to do lots of rack focusing, etc look into having hard stops put in on the focus ring and put Delvin gear rings on them. It's going to make your life easier. Also, I think removing the click stops on the aperture is important too. I was wishing I had that the other day. I have to save up some money to get mine done but look forward to doing it.

[Kenn Michael]

Slightly off-topic, but to Jeremy, Steve and Richard:

I just got a 17-35 (from keh.com with an EX rating). All I heard about this lens is how extremely sharp it is, but it's a hair (maybe 2 hairs) softer than my Nikon primes and definitely softer than my Red 18-50. I know primes are supposed to be sharper than zooms, but in your opinion, do I have a bad lens or is this normal performance?

[J.D. Frey]

We've shot on our new mount, but have not noticed any play- i'll have to check more closely the next shoot.

[Steve Sherrick]

Slightly off-topic, but to Jeremy, Steve and Richard:

I just got a 17-35 (from keh.com with an EX rating). All I heard about this lens is how extremely sharp it is, but it's a hair (maybe 2 hairs) softer than my Nikon primes and definitely softer than my Red 18-50. I know primes are supposed to be sharper than zooms, but in your opinion, do I have a bad lens or is this normal performance?

Any stills to compare? That way we can see how far off it is.