Red & Dslr...

[Jannard]

Here is a quick comparison of Build 16 RED ONE and a popular professional DSLR, the Canon 1D MKIII. I picked the 1D MKIII because it is the newest, highest quality Canon with an APS size sensor. I have cropped and scaled (slightly) the Canon to match the RED 2:1 format. I open the Canon file in Adobe RAW and opened the blacks because Adobe crushed them on open. Then I matched the two together (as best as possible) without inducing any weirdness. I have been doing this stuff a long time, so I am comfortable in the process. I encourage all of you to do similar tests on your own.

I used a RED 50-150mm zoom and the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM zoom (newest version). Both were shot at ISO 320 and f5.6. I think I have successfully deleted the metadata, so that won't help you.

Focus was on slight different parts of the pic... sorry about that. Makes you check more closely. :-)

Please DO NOT copy these images and paste into a reply for bandwidth sake...

You tell me which is which.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1a.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1b.jpg

[Rick Darge]

My head wants to say the bottom image is Red, my heart says that its the top image but my soul says, who cares.. My DSLR is jealous either way

thanks for the silent comparison jim

[Álex Montoya]

I hope it's the first one.

[Seth Larney]

My guess is that the bottom is RED..

But not because I think the other one is better :) HOLY SHMOKES !!

[Jannard]

Focus of "b" is slightly in front of "a". It was hard to focus the Canon... which ever one that was. :-)

Jim

[Seth Larney]

Hey Concrete,

Are you saying that because you think the image is soft on the paint tubes on the bottom image ?

As Jim say's, I think they're just slightly out of focus..

[Seth Larney]

Focus of "b" is slightly in front of "a". It was hard to focus the Canon... which ever one that was. :-)

Jim

Whoops Jim, beat me to it :)

[Jannard]

They both have the type sharp on the chart. One has the tubes behind more in focus and the other has the small Canon pocket camera more in focus.

Check the channels... compare the colors, measure the charts with your color meter.

Jim

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Upper: RED
Lower: Canon

Based on noise characteristics.

[Johan Lindgren]

The bottom one.

of course.

Johlan

[laguun]

excellent :)

not knowning the canon _and_ r16 its hard too tell for me, but i would say upper canon, lower red.

However the point of the comparision is: the slight quality differences are, even for experts, almost unoticable when looking at the images on a 1:1 scale.

congratulations, another fine example of the superb quality red one can deliver.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I think Image B is the RED..

what a cool game though! You can't really tell them apart :-)

[Peter McCully]

Upper: Canon
Lower: Red

[Jannard]

Remember, this is Canon's very best camera at this size sensor. It shoots 12fps. This is one of their very best lenses.

Jim

[Jannard]

If you are going to play... you need to say why.

Jim

[Álex Montoya]

I've played a bit with the images in PS and RED has to be the bottom one, 'cause I've yet to see a RED pic with so much effective resolution as the first one.

[Clay Morrison]

Based on the color rendition...

Top: Canon
Bottom: RED

When comparing noise they are nearly indistinguishable.

[Scott Webster]

Upper: Canon
Lower: Red

Ditto.
Edit: to follow Jim's rules, concentrating on the blue squares on the colour chart and the bottom pic has more of what I consider Red characteristics in those squares.

[Seth Larney]

My guess was based on the color rendition as well.

[Johan Lindgren]

Based on color and hilight handling me thinks RED is the lower one.

either one is great and i think you can tweak any one of the to look more like the other.

Johlan

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Now Jim if you would drop the bomb that RED was the upper one, my jaw would drop and I would remortgage my house to order 100 RED's :wink:


Fredrik

[Oliver Skibbe]

Compare the edge sharpness of the color fields. The second image (RED) has a characteristic softness for some colors, while the first image (Canon) is equally sharp for all fields.

Edit: Rocketeer already said it...

[Johan Lindgren]

Compare the edge sharpness of the color fields. The second image (RED) has a characteristic softness for some colors, while the first image (Canon) is equally sharp for all fields.

If that first one is Canon they would really have to look in to that CA problem.
Just look at that

[Warren Kommers]

I'll probably poop my pants if it's the first one. The second one has many "RED" qualities.

1.creamy texture.

2.More DOF if the Canon was not scaled to a 1.6 crop.

3.linear looking at the top of the curve perhaps?

I haven't got the images into PS or anything....

[Karl H]

I think the bottom one is Red.

My reasoning is the way it seems to render sharp lines between the dark and bright colour squares. This is something Ive seen on previous colour charts posted.

but it is closer than I thought it would be.

Personlly I'd love to see this test on a high detailed forest scene, because this is where I think the difference would have been seen much clearer between DSLR and Red (on build 15); and I'd like to see how much this has improved in 16.

[Jeff Mustaman]

Jim likes a tease, so there probably both shot on RED !!

[Jannard]

I think the bottom one is Red.

My reasoning is the way it seems to render sharp lines between the dark and bright colour squares. This is something Ive seen on previous colour charts posted.

but it is closer than I thought it would be.

Personlly I'd love to see this test on a high detailed forest scene, because this is where I think the difference would have been seen much clearer between DSLR and Red (on build 15); and I'd like to see how much this has improved in 16.

Then you would be testing compression and not resolution or color...

If you were going to do that test, you would certainly need to do it with Build 16.

Jim

[Jannard]

I think all of you had better take another look...

Jim

[Álex Montoya]

Nah, it CAN'T be. :D

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hehehehe......jim best would be to never tell the answer....

[Häakon]

Here's a good reference chart of relative physical sensor sizes that may help put things into perspective for users who aren't familiar with terminology like "APS-H" (the size of the sensor in the EOS-1D Mark III that Jim used).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/SensorSizes.png/428px-SensorSizes.png

It is important to note that the 35mm "full frame" size is the full frame size of 35mm still film - NOT motion picture film. RED has been touting the sensor in the RED ONE as a "full frame" camera - which, compared to 35mm motion picture stock (and let's face it, that's what everyone compares this camera to) - is accurate. But since many users will be more familiar with the term as it relates to dSLR photography, it's important to note there is a quite substantial size difference. I only bring this up because Jim is now comparing the RED ONE to a dSLR - and there are, in effect, two different "full frame" sizes at work here. At 24.4mm x 13.7mm, the dimensions of the RED ONE senor are closest to the APS-C sensor size found in Canon's prosumer line of cameras (so a camera like the 12MP XSi would make for a better comparison). Else, the image must be cropped and/or scaled for image size consistency - though I understand Jim's intent of aiming to use the best dSLR possible for purposes of quality comparison.

As far as these two images are concerned, my gut says the top one is from the Canon... I don't have a whole lot of tangible evidence other than I've shot enough RED (<= build 15) and that's what the bottom one feels like. :-) I do think the top one is the superior image, personally, however if it is from the Canon the point is moot as that camera does not do 24fps or record to a wonderful visually lossless codec. That being said, the second image actually feels more "filmic" to me, which is not necessarily a good or bad thing except that since everyone likes to compare the RED ONE to film all day long, I suppose it's a strong suit if you can say you "got that part right."

Clearly RED is an amazing camera for motion picture capture and I can't wait to see where they take this technology with Epic and newer bodies in the future. Medium format is the next frontier!

[Daniel García]

I think red is the bottom one... but OMG this is driving me crazy.


He won't tell!
http://www.lonvig.dk/portraits-alfred-hitchcock.jpg

[Karl H]

ohh interesting. After that comment I took at look at the blue channel too.

The bottom image still seems to be Red to me. It has that kind of blurry/soft blue channel filter thingy.

But, strangely enough, even though the top image's blue channel seems to be sharper and more defined, it's very speckily in the bright yellow/orange squares.

after seeing the blue channel I still say the bottom one is Red, based on what ive seen before from build 16 test images.

If Im wrong, I wont be unhappy :-)
(but then of course I'll moan about the speckles instead..lol)

[Jannard]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim

[Stephen Webb]

It's 10:30 in the morning, of course I'm up :detective2:

[Jeff Mustaman]

Congrats Jim, you just got me starring at 2 frames for the last 15 minutes, believe me.. your not the only one that's nuts.

I would have to say B, by looking at the blue channel where there are some more artifects. But seriously, this is amazing!

[Jannard]

Everyone better go back again and look again closely...

Jim

[Warren Kommers]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim

I'm doing shot lists and checking this thread. Now I think I'm hungry.....

[Joe D'Arcy]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim

Living on Australian time and going nuts. I can't tell one from the other.

[A. Bastaki]

noise wise:
red is the one above
canon the below

color wise:
red is the one below
canon is the one above
-------------------------

jim hinted that he had difficulties with focusing... you'd want the chart and the colors on the left. (i think) i mean why focus on a mini canon.. doesnt make sense.

so i guess the one above is red, and the canon one would be below.

----------------
now heres what i give a shit about:
I like the colors of the first one.. not its noise.
I like the noiselessness of the second one.. i hate its color, but color can be fixed, though when i would do so i will get noise.

so.. they are kinda alike.
________
Rambler rebel (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Rambler_Rebel)

[Karl H]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

ok : final analysis :-)

top image

pros : has much better defined blue sharpness, overall image quality is sharper
cons : highlights seems to have blown out a touch earlier than the bottom image and also has some speckling on the yellows within the blue channel.

bottom image

pros : seems to have slightly more DR, the blue channel is even throughout the colour range.
cons : the blue channel is blurry, less defined. The overall image is softer.

i reserve the right to be wrong.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

Everyone better go back again and look again closely...

Jim

Including me? :P

[Jannard]

I guess the bottom line is... if you are not sure, we are doing pretty well. Time for bed. It is 2:50pm and I have no excuse for being up so late on this stuff.

Jim

[David Nardini]

Hmmm ... they are very very VERY close (which is great news !!!)

It would be good to know how the Canon RAW was processed ? ACR default settings ? or what ?

Looking at the blue channel (Photoshop), I first though that the bottom image was RED, however, the bottom right scale on the chart is sharpened too much on the bottom image (the top image being very clean). I've never managed to get this much sharpening out of RedCine (never used RedAlert in anger so cannot comment if achievable in RA).
Again, in the blue channel, some interest edge effects for many of the bottom right swatches (and up a bit) on both images, this time top image appearing more sharp ... hmmm.

Looking at the overall image (all channels) the level of sharpening present on the bottom image just 'feels' like a DSLR.

My conclusion so far : top = RED & bottom = Canon

Edit : good work guys ... how about some outside shots with fine repeating detail ;-)

[Alexander Nikishin]

The bottom is RED, I based that assumption off of the highlight rolloff on the dumbell.

[Marius V Graan]

It's astounding that the images are so close no one can really definitively say which is which. Try a similar test with any other Digital Cinema camera and I doubt it would look this good.
I would say the top is RED, the bottom is Canon.

[Filipo]

The first shot is greener but the second one has a lot of magenta.
I didnt see magenta on my RED but I dont have RED zoom. Maybe RED zoom gives magenta look.

Here is something what i wanna show you. Compare these photos and you will see the color difference.

First:

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-kju785pru3s1i5mkhxn51w9kt3.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-kba37dfc7d7ic5jng45cwin5js.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-nwp59uhfc9gufkix2jiaamgetg.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-jaxh2cwkiw48thx27npw5rmgpe.jpg

This is the RED !

[Filipo]

The second:

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-mkse19m2ktr1rwk51aitpshucx.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-8cyqtcau22wji7yg799e5x2jbw.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-4n9j6ygugdq55wiigpmxa46nh.jpg

http://img.skitch.com/20080610-dju61dnmnh8ixb59nihpd1mb3.jpg


Someone has cleaner signal...and it is ???


Jannard, the RED lenses are digital optimized?

[Sanjin Jukic]

People here don't know well both, RED and Canon.

Top one is RED.

Bottom is Canon.

First thing you have to look it's about DoP.

Second if you ever were worked with RED or Canon you know something about a color rendition difference between them.

Third thing are the picture quality, resolution, sharpness, etc,... that all are on RED side.

[Jonas Nyström]

Bottom is Canon. You can taste a little Canon-magenta...

[Damien Molineaux]

The top picture is Red

The lower one is Canon.

The softness in the lower image is typical of the Canon lens, according to one of my partners and Canon expert. Also as has ben mentioned there is a little CA in the top image, the Canon lens as no CA.

Do the test again with the same lens, now that'll be a challenge !

Both beautiful high quality images in any case.

Cheers,
Damien

[Filipo]

People here don't know well both, RED and Canon.

Top one is RED.

Bottom is Canon.

First thing you have to look it's about DoP.

Second if you ever were worked with RED or Canon you know something about a color rendition difference between them.

Third thing are the picture quality, resolution, sharpness, etc,... that all are on RED side.

Sanjin, do you have RED zoom?
Did you ever seen magenta on the gray scale?

the RED lenses are digital optimized?

[el_stupido]

I have it! BOTH are the Red One. There was never a DSLR. Jim was just playing the mind games like they did back to me in '82....

[REDDER]

I'm not a Canon expert. I'm a Nikon user so I can only judge from Jim's previous examples (B16 ISO comparison thread).
Top one is Red.
Lower one is Canon.
It's a tough call though which proves the point.
Jim, would you mind repeating the test with a prime lens (if possible using the same lens on both cameras)?
Thanks for the tease, err... I meant for the test.

[Marc Berger]

Mmmh...could be.
For sure first one Red B16.
Second one maybe B15 or Canon.
I´m working since years with Canon DSLR. The second one looks like Canon with Adobe Raw converter. Specially the table reflexes and the CA on the Liquitex look to me like Canon. Also the bokeh of the lens seems to be Canon...mmmh
Do you know we have people over here buying a Red One to take photographs!

[Shawn Booth]

Top is RED.

[Martin Weiss]

Hollywood Schmollywood first wrote

I'll probably poop my pants if it's the first one.
And a sentence later he talks about
creamy texture
Touché!

[Álex Montoya]

IF top is RED, then I'm totally sold to the camera.

[Fix]

look at the links below.. shoot from 1D mark III.. You can clearly see the same creamy texture as the lower picture. My guess. The top one is the RED.

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dm3/downloads/landscape1.jpg

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos1dm3/downloads/motocross-bike.jpg

[Lauri Kettunen]

Top: Red
Bottom: Canon

Justification: Look at the table and the surrounding of the reflection of gretagmacbeth. A careful examination reveals in the dark areas of the top one the wavelet compression.

[Tico Llaurador]

Top is Canon. Bottom is RED.

[Laco Zamba]

Look at pictures here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14182#9

Top: Canon
Bottom: RED

[Yiannis Bournazos]

top is canon. Bottom is definitely RED!!!

[Pawel Achtel]

You tell me which is which.

You don't make it easy, do you? Frankly, after staring at them for 20 minutes and slicing and dicing in Photoshop I must categoricaly say that... I have no idea which one is which :help: But, here is my take on comparison:

1. Neither clips highlights and the brightest reflections fall just within the DR, so both were exposed correctly. Highlights on both fall off nicely.

2. The first picture has more shadow information, roughly 0.5 stop to my eye.

3. Uniformity of pure colours is about the same on both (used Photoshop picker)

4. Looking at the corner crop, The first has significantly less CA than the second. I would say the first CA is about 1/2 pixel, the second has CA of about 2-3 pixels.

5. Contrast: The first one has higher contrast than the first second. Not much, though.

6. Resolution (sharpness) is very close, I can't determine which one is sharper. Both are wicked sharp, as Jarred likes to say.

7. Noise levels are about the same. I prefer the way it renders on the first one, but there is little between them. I would take either happily.

Conclusion: Both are superb pictures and it is unbelievable that one was shot with Red. I will accept any of them any time. If I had to pick a better one, it would be the first one. I have never thought a digital video camera could match a top-of-the-line DSLR. Simply amazing!!! :w00t:

[Patrick Tresch]

My vote goes for

1rst Canon
2nd RED (seems to be under exposed of about 1/2 to 2/3 stop)

It's great to be able to compare RED with a high quality DSLR on a still picture!

Thanks for the tease.

Patrick

Hope to see the answer anytime soooon!

[Lauri Kettunen]

Bottom image: Look at the table immediately right from where the text 8.0 megapixels is printed on the camera. You'll find there a small hole/scratch in the table. Then locate the same spot in the upper image and you'll clearly recognize the effect of RED's (wavelet) compression. Or, in the top image, look immediately left from the reflection of gretagmacbeth. The effect of compression is there.

Afterthought: Took a look with a better monitor and started to hesitate immediately. What I thought is due to compression may well just follow from the focus. So, mix thoughts ... better to give up from speculating.

[sceneeast]

People here don't know well both, RED and Canon.

Top one is RED.

Bottom is Canon.

First thing you have to look it's about DoP.

Second if you ever were worked with RED or Canon you know something about a color rendition difference between them.

Third thing are the picture quality, resolution, sharpness, etc,... that all are on RED side.

Right on! I agree!

Bob

[vovin]

Personally, given the quality of both pictures, and the fact that this whole community has turned upside down trying to deduce which is which - I don't give a flying f**k which is which :)

I remember only a few years ago when I fantasized about having digital motion pictures with the same quality as my Canon EOS 10D (which is of course by todays standards quite far from the most impressive). And here we are, with RED, shooting impressive fps with high DR, rich color depth, in (red)raw, with low noise.... and it is freaking inexpensive! And of *top* of that, we have excellent customer support and direct communication with the Big Guys on the forum. I am so speechless that it's painful... but in a good way :)

[Hrvoje Simic]

Top one Canon. Guessing mostly by the overall detail, especially on wood. Lower one shows what looks like compression.

Unless they're both Red - before and after...

[Sanjin Jukic]

This is a box full of Jim's tricks, color rendering, etc,...

Let's go back to the CA issue.

Have a look at this Mitchell's part of Arco Dolly:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/jim_before_example.jpg
This is a crop from one Jim's example before, look at CA, ...
Original LINK>>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=226907&postcount=81)

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/jim_RED_CA.jpg
Blow up crop 200% from the top picture with CA issue = RED

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/jim_canon_lessCA.jpg
Blow up crop 200% from the bottom picture with another CA issue = Canon

[Mark Phelan]

Jim,

This is really exciting stuff. One of the first things I was planning on doing with my camera is to shoot a similar comparison on one of our yearly shoots, with the same equipment. You've confirmed what I was suspecting all along.

You are having way too much fun with this, aren't you? :)

[Andrew M.]

I have it! BOTH are the Red One. There was never a DSLR. Jim was just playing the mind games like they did back to me in '82....

This is build 15 on the top and build 16 on the bottom.
MK III will blow the RED out of the water.

Edit:

After examining both pictures at 200% zoom.
The bottom is RED for sure.
The top has much better resolving power, MK III or maybe B16

I was thinking that grain in the top picture is compression artefact, in fact it is the texture of the chart material.

[Sanjin Jukic]

This is build 16 on the top and build 15 on the bottom.
MK III will blow the RED out of the water.

C'mon, now you said something that could equal B16 to a sort of lens magic correction :).

[Tico Llaurador]

Andrew, funny... I thought that, too. Could very well be.

[Pawel Achtel]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim


We're in Australia, mate :usd: we are all nuts!

[Andrew M.]

I didn't measure anything, just used my eyes.
After all it is the eyes that are ultimate judge.

I like the bottom since it is, I call it Graeme look.
Smooooooth good colors, partially because of compression RED is using.
It normally should be considered as a big minus, flattening the surface texture with the compression.
Well, maybe it is minus, but it is what I like, edges are knife sharp and this less contrast in the colors on the bottom picture should not mislead you, you can push it more than any other RAW.
The top picture is pushed bit more in saturation, but take the saturation out and what you get?

One thing I am not sure is the grain on the top picture in most of the color squares, if it is not grain then it is the texture of the chart, the material that chart is made from. If it is the texture of the material coming out of the picture then it may be, just may be, the top picture is MK III or B16

Bottom picture looks very familiar, very familiar, I am staring at this type of pictures for last few month all too often, for sure it is not Cannon MK III.

[Uli Plank]

I don't care which is which! I can only say one thing: It's very impressive that most folks on this list are having difficulties finding out. Remember: Red is compressed, Canon is uncompressed. This is very good proof to anyone out there that high quality compression of RAW is possible – and IMHO it's one of the core concepts of the Red One as opposed to any other moving images camera out there.

Regards,

Uli

[Andrew M.]

I just put both pictures at 200% zoom.
Woooowww, it is the texture of the squares material, not noise or bad compression on the top picture!!!!

Top picture has much better resolution then.

Looks like we need much better material for charts while testing 4K. It could be very misleading. At this resolution looks like our old Macbeth needs face lift otherwise you can accuse the camera of noise at the first glance.
Whatever it is on the top the whole chain, lenses->sensor->post gives much better resolving power.
I don't know the lenses Jim mentioned Canon 70-200 L, I have 16-35 L II that can deliver this resolving power that we see in the upper picture.

[kmikami]

I prefer #1. The difference in focus is distracting but there still is something about the texture of the wood on the table, apart from focus, that looks much better on #1.

[Robert Mott]

I think the first is Red and the second is Cannon based on color rendition

[Andrew M.]

I think the first is Red and the second is Cannon based on color rendition

Just look at both pictures at 200% zoom.
You will see hairs stuck to the color squares on the top picture.
On the bottom one you can hardly recognize that there is something in the same place.

Both pictures are focused on the chart as Jim said.

[Karl H]

we all said red was the bottom and Jim said look again, as if we were wrong..... If its the top one id be very happy as i think its much sharper, as is the blue channel. the blue channel in the bottom image is very blurry and lacks detail, which is why my first instinct said it was red.

[Seth Larney]

Ahhh..

So after looking at this again and reading through everyone's opinions, I am thoroughly confused.

Jim, I think your point has been made ;)

[Nils Ruinet]

If I had to guess, I'd say the second one is RED. The 'softer' more desaturated look makes me think so.

But the truth is, I really don't know.
Both look great, and the main difference is a grading thing. You could have graded the second one to look much more similar to the first one with just some small RGB curve and saturation adjustments.

Nils.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

If you know where to look and check other canon 1D photos it's obvious that the top one is the Canon and the second one is the red.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

(I haven't read all the thread, because of all the spoilers. :) )


The Force tells me that the first one is RED...

Because of the feeling...

***

Lol,.. good reason, eh? :)

[Peter Karlsson]

If the top picture is Red I'll eat my underpants... The bottom one looks a little mushy in the blue channel (compression artifacts in my eyes)..

I'd love to eat my underpants though if the top is really red footage :)

[Patrick Tresch]

If the top picture is Red I'll eat my underpants... :)

JIM TELL US IT'S THE TOP PICTURE PLEASE!!!!

And Peter please send some pict of you eating :-)

Patrick:)

[Steve White]

It's not obvious at all, due to the numerous claims of it being "obvious" both ways.

I'll just say that I like the colour rendition and focus of the top picture better. I would also wager that the top picture is Red, as I find the arguments more convincing.

[Johann Schulz]

I'm about as technical as a watermelon. I just like the first image better based upon feel; colour, clarity AND saturation. Nothing has been altered, I imagine. Put RED on the pedestal it deserves. The RED is number one, of course! (And don't mind my spelling, I'm Canadian).

[Johann Schulz]

karapetkov,
Geez, did it take me ten minutes to finally post my thoughts? Anyway, we had the same (hopeful) "feeling", and the debate rages on....

[Martin Weiss]

If the top picture is Red I'll eat my underpants...
Make sure that you are not taking Hollywood Schmoolywood´s. That would get ugly :bye2:

[Barry Gregg]

In Photoshop the RGB in the grey chips of the B image has a blue spike, in all of the grey chips. The A image has no spike in the blue channel.

B is Red. A is Canon.

Same with the CA. Canon has always had issues with CA.

B is Red. A is Canon.

[hdnow]

Bottom picture has an overcompensated sharpness.
Very visible on the top of the chart(Digital Color Checker), inside the white letter edges(ringing).
That makes me strongly believe the top is RED.

cheers,
hdnow

[D.A.N]

Based on noise characteristics the bottom image is Red.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

karapetkov,
Geez, did it take me ten minutes to finally post my thoughts? Anyway, we had the same (hopeful) "feeling", and the debate rages on....


I ain't very technical either, but I'm slowly turning into a digital cinema geek, reading these forums.

We're yet to see if our hunch was right.

[I Bloom]

The bottom one is Red.

That's fine though, you've made a great case for your tech, once again.

[Graeme Nattress]

It's very interesting reading the "back and forth" in this thread. I have both a MKIII and a RED One here, so I know what they both look like. I know intimately what a RED looks like.

It's interesting reading the scrutiny and the differences you all see (when you look really closely).

A very interesting thread.

Graeme

[Ivan G]

There is something fishy going on.... When some said it was the bottom, Jim said "look again". That gave me a hard on! Now, I believe it's the bottom because of the color rendition.

Please say I'm wrong!

[Obin Olson]

c'mon Jim - just give us the answer. if it's the red that looks better and sharper you have exceeded anything I thought you could do with this beast!

[Nils Ruinet]

Ok Jim, you've clearly made your point. It's hard to make the difference between both pictures.

Here is a quick recap of the answers so far :

First picture is RED = 21 people
Second picture is RED = 32 people

:tongue:

[Anarri]

I think the Bottom one is Canon. The blue channel on my RED ONE could never look like good ( sorry Jim )

[reality]

The bottom image is definitely the Canon. The noise is significantly lower in the blue channel and there is much less chromatic aberration.

[Antoine Fabi]

Pict #1) Less edge enhancement, not quite as clean colors on the MB chart.

Pict #2) A little cleaner but darker colors ( probably adjustments anyway), but a ton of chromatic aberration on the upper left.

Tough call...both in the same league overall.

I'd guess pict #1 is from RED ONE.

[Marius V Graan]

I bet Jim is sitting at his computer having a good laugh at this...lighting a cigar...pouring a cognac...

[Steve Sherrick]

Top=Red
Bottom=Canon

If I am reading the image properly, it looks to me like the first image is more characteristic of Red footage, especially when I raise the exposure. But then again, I'm not as familiar with Canon, so I might be wrong. Either way, looking pretty good.

[Kevin Halverson]

Wow, you try to get a good night's sleep and you miss out on all the fun.

OK, first off, I would have preferred a deeper bit depth pair of images to work with, but given that all we have access to is the .jpgs I will venture my guess.

The image labeled 9_1a.jpg is the Canon shot.
The image labeled 9_1b.jpg is the RED shot.

My guess (as is a lot of others) is that the point of this is that, 8 bit jpgs of both are very difficult to tell apart and that there is no clear 'winner' when comparing these two digital acquisition devices (when used as a still frame camera). As a motion camera, the RED is the clear winner, but that is kinda obvious.

Regardless of the results, I think a congratulations is in order (and perhaps we will be seeing a number of 1Ds coming up on the used market).

Kevin Halverson

[Jason Diamond]

i agree the bottom one is RED and it still looks as fantastic as the Canon but it makes movies faster then 12fps! if you want :)

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Top is RED. The highlights are characteristic of what I've been getting. As far as color rendition goes, it still seems to me the top one is RED. It has that soft tone to it plus the wood grain seems to be more natural.

Remember Jim had to bring the blacks Canon up in Adobe RAW because of a slight crush Adobe put on it. I think that could more resemble the second picture. He brought it up but just enough to match the first picture.

[Kevin Halverson]

What would really interest me is a pair of back lite zone chart shots.

That would be really useful shots to compare.

Kevin Halverson

[Hugues Wisniewski]

There's way more information in the top one, so based on all the previous threads concerning ISO's, the extreme test with the girl in the dark in front of the washed out background, and various other tests from Jim, I'd say the top one is RED

In the bottom one there's more noise and the information is not there.
Trying to bring back the information in the details and shadows just shows noise.

[Álex Montoya]

I certainly hope the upper one is RED, but I don't think it is.

[Tico Llaurador]

Concrete, did you get your cam yet?

[Brent J. Craig]

Jim, I will be in Africa with spotty Internet access (and a couple of Reds). Can you give us the time and date you will reveal the secrets of this thread?

[Häakon]

I'm curious of how many people who have made a choice actually have their cameras... :-)

Bottom one still feels much more RED-like to me.

[Francis Kenny]

OK, I'll take a shot at it. Top is Red. The noise structure appears larger in the blue. But what the hell do I know.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I'm curious of how many people who have made a choice actually have their cameras... :-)

Bottom one still feels much more RED-like to me.

If you check all the answers you will see that most of the people who don't have their cameras yet think that the top picture is RED. Most of the current RED owners know that the second one is the RED even if there was some confusion for a few minutes.

:biggrin:

[Adrian T.]

My first impression according to my experience with firmware #15 was that the bottom one is the RED. Simply because it looks compressed, especially the blue channel.

But then the Sherlock Holmes in me woke up. :detective2:

Jim said that it was hard to focus the Canon. So what would you want to have in focus, the color tubes with all the fine print or the point & shoot camera? I'd say the tubes.
So the top one must be the RED.

The two stills are taken from different positions. The first camera was to the left of the other one. So how would you place these two cameras side by side? The RED ONE has most probably an EVF and a FF on its smart side. There's no room to put the Canon 1D there.
So the top one must be the RED.

Jim, please tell me that my Sherlock Holmes is right. :biggrin:

[kmikami]

It's confusing because the second image has focus issues but it's also softer in other ways. The words "Digital ColorChecker" are sharper on the second image but the first image still reveals details (little hairs and flecks, the texture of the paper) in that area that are absent from the second image. I have no idea which is which, having no experience with either camera, but the first file is obviously the superior image.

[Steve Sherrick]

If you check all the answers you will see that most of the people who don't have their cameras yet think that the top picture is RED. Most of the current RED owners know that the second one is the RED even if there was some confusion for a few minutes.

:biggrin:

Well, here's the thing. I have a camera, but I don't have Build 16. If the bottom one is Red, then there are some things about it that seem different than Build 15. Could be the way the noise is structured. There are some things about the top one that don't seem Red-like to me. So, call me confused. On first glance, I had thought the bottom one was Red. Then I went in and looked it over in Photoshop and I leaned towards the top one being Red. I think I'm failing the test.:)

[Sanjin Jukic]

If you check all the answers you will see that most of the people who don't have their cameras yet think that the top picture is RED. Most of the current RED owners know that the second one is the RED even if there was some confusion for a few minutes.

:biggrin:

Ha ha ha ha ha :) I do have RED and Canon 40D.

The top picture is shot on RED B16.

First things first:

Why should Jim show us that another camera (DSLR or any Digital Cinema) is better then RED B16 in any sort of comparison?

Don't forget that Jim Jannard makes and sells RED, but no Canon, Nikon, Genesis or D-21...

There is no logic to show here or anywhere that other product beats the product you sell.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I'm hearing the:

"Whatever you're expecting, you will be surprised".

.. again.

Someone check if it isn't a multilayered image, hiding an ancient Maya CMOS technology of alien origin.

[hunterrichards]

They both look great. But the first is the DSLR and the second is RED.

Here is why I think that:

Because I own a RED, I know what wavelet compression + sharpening look like, the wavelet compression gives away that the 2nd is Red, it also looks like it has the HIGH setting checked for olpf compensation. Its not bad at all- just a great way to fit all of that data into a manageable file size.

Both colors are good too.

Another thing that is a tell- the second one has just a bit more Dof (from cropping 4k from the 4.5K size sensor)

I really cant complain though, this camera rocks.

If I am wrong on this- I will be extremely surprised....

[Karl H]

i want the top image to be red, but i dont think it is.

[Jannard]

Another point of interest... The Canon file is 10 times larger than the RED file at capture... :-)

Jim

[Mike Prevette]

The rampant noise reduction / over sharpening in the second one give it away as the Canon image. Remember the Red has some of the most minimal in camera processing of any digital camera, and that really reveals the uglyness and artifacts in the preprocessed images.

top: red
bottom: canon

EDIT: Just reviewed the images WHO KNOWS! Congrats to RED it's pretty stunning either way.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Another point of interest... The Canon file is 10 times larger than the RED file at capture... :-)

Jim

When you said that you have cropped and scaled (slightly) the Canon you didn't say if you scaled up or down. Could you share this info with us now?

[Häakon]

When you said that you have cropped and scaled (slightly) the Canon you didn't say if you scaled up or down. Could you share this info with us now?
That's why I made this post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=232566&postcount=31) to clarify the issue. :) The sensor in the Canon is larger, and you have to either crop or scale the image (down) to get it to red size. Keep in mind, however, the Canon is a 10MP camera - so the photosites are larger. This comparison isn't really apples to apples, though Jim never said it was. :-)

The point about the Canon file size being larger is also valid, combined with the fact that the Canon cannot shoot 24fps. So like the Canon picture better or not, it's irrelevant as you can't make (traditional) movies with it. :-)

[Peter Karlsson]

Make sure that you are not taking Hollywood Schmoolywood´s. That would get ugly :bye2:

Ooh, so you've been digging at his underpants?!? Now THATS ugly ;) ... Naah, I'll stick with my own :shifty:

Now seriously, if the top image IS red.. I'll eat em I tell you! That picture looks to have a totally different noise characteristic than previous builds (for the better I think. But the bottom pic is also nice :)..)

[Miltos Pilalitos]

That's why I made this post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=232566&postcount=31) to clarify the issue. :) The sensor in the Canon is larger, and you have to either crop or scale the image (down) to get it to red size. Keep in mind, however, the Canon is a 10MP camera - so the photosites are larger. This comparison isn't really apples to apples, though Jim never said it was. :-)

The point about the Canon file size being larger is also valid, combined with the fact that the Canon cannot shoot 24fps. So like the Canon picture better or not, it's irrelevant as you can't make (traditional) movies with it. :-)

I agree with everything you said. Considering all this, i conclude that even if the top picture (Canon) looks slightly better, the true winner is RED.


EDIT: The Canon is 21MP though...

[Andrew M.]

Guys, Jim was answering the question from another thread first, about comparison of RED to DLSR.

Right after Jims answer to another thread, this thread popped up with the comparison.
Judging on the time when top picture was created and the second one just after, you should all know by now what is RED and what is Canon.
If someone ask you to compare Canon to RED which shot you will do first?

Anyway, I will eat underwear (of my girlfriend) if bottom one is not RED.
Since I didn't play with B16 frames, I can't tell if top picture is from B16 or not but judging on the details in the top one I will say it is soft Canon 1Ds Mark III. I have seen better shots from MK III.
Jim said that he didn't do much with Canon so maybe that is why it is bit soft as for MK III.

Common! we are trying to compare 21MP with 12MP here and we still have trouble?

[Lauri Kettunen]

Ok, I think I got it. Copy the files to Photoshop and look at the blue channels of F4, G4, and H4 squares at 400%. In file 9_1a.jpg, which is the upper one, one can see patterns of wavelet compression. In file 9_1b.jpg such patterns do not exist. Conclusion, the top one, 9_1a is from Red One, the bottom one is from Canon.

[Jeff Coatney]

Judging by how the specular highlights are modeled on the metal and the glossy paint tubes, and considering how I've just been through a DI session with footage shot from our RED, I think it's the top picture. Top is Red.

[Eryc Tramonn]

Didn't read the entire thread yet, so I don't know if the jig is up...but I'm going to say:

Top: Canon
Bottom: RED

Color handling, and noise characteristics...but this really drives the point home doesn't it?

[Steve Sherrick]

Lauri, same conclusion I came to.

[Jannard]

When you said that you have cropped and scaled (slightly) the Canon you didn't say if you scaled up or down. Could you share this info with us now?

The RED file opens at 4096x2048 from about a 1.5MB file. The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

To make it clear about Canon sensor size>>>Canon 1D MKIII:

"This is a 10.1 Megapixel camera able to shoot at 10 FPS, for up to 30 frames in RAW mode, and 110 frames in JPG."

LINK>>> (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/1D-MKIII-Field.shtml)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hehehe...still no answer?
this thread is worth to be shown to every client who is interessted in shooting red....and all the cynical guys from lalaland

[Andrew M.]

The RED file opens at 4096x2048 from about a 1.5MB file. The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048.

Jim

So it is not Canon 1Ds 21MP it is 1D MKIII that is only 10MP!!

Now I am confused.....................

[Eryc Tramonn]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim

I was up too, and am kicking myself for not checking the board before sacking out. This is too good.

[Álex Montoya]

Now, come on, Jim. Time has come to tell us the solution.

[Häakon]

EDIT: The Canon is 21MP though...

So it is not Canon 1Ds 21MP it is 1D MKIII

Now I am confused.....................
There are two Mark IIIs, the 1D mkIII and the 1Ds mk III. The "s" model is 21MP, the "non-s" is only 10 - but shoots much faster. Jim is using the "non-s" according to the original post.

[Simon Valderrama]

Now, come on, Jim. Time has come to tell us the solution.

second that.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

The RED file opens at 4096x2048 from about a 1.5MB file. The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048.

Jim

What? i thought you used the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III...

Hmmm... this just added a little confusion back to my mind. I was 100% the top was the Canon but i am not sure now...

[David Nardini]

... Anyway, I will eat underwear (of my girlfriend) if bottom one is not RED ...

Andrew ... I feel that you need to start practicing ;-)

[Jannard]

So it is not Canon 1Ds 21MP it is 1D MKIII that is only 10MP!!

Now I am confused.....................

It is as "apples to apples" as you can get. We are seeing all 10MP from the Canon and about the same from RED when you consider that the RED ONE is a 12MP camera at full 4520 resolution. The 1Ds MKIII is a full frame still sensor that is much larger than S35 film size (and the RED and 1D MKIII).

Jim

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

What the hell is everyone doing up at this hour? I have an excuse... I'm nuts.

Jim


Heheh,

I knew that I've "come" to the right place. :holloween:

[Marius V Graan]

I've been waiting since this thread started for an answer, I haven't left the computer, apart from going to blow my nose since I have the flu. Please Jim, it's killing me (literally)...

[Andrew M.]

Same thing here, now it is very tough since we didn't see the B16 too much.
If I see the same with the focus chart it would be easier. RED has very little artefacts on focus charts in comparison to DLSRs. Still the bottom one looks familiar.
Can we get focus chart shot from both cameras?

[Sanjin Jukic]

The RED file opens at 4096x2048 from about a 1.5MB file. The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048.

Jim

We already have got the answer from Jim.

"The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048."

Definitely the top is RED and the bottom is Canon.

The key is in more detail, shaper image and of course higher resolution.

[Jannard]

Respectfully, the 1D MKIII is a 1.3x crop camera, not full-frame. I posted that chart on page four so that people understood this, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. A more "apples to apples" comparison would be to use one of their APS-C sized sensors, which is very nearly the same size of RED's. But then, my guess is you don't have one of those lying around as it is too "prosumer." :-P

Haakon (I don't know how to do that funny thing over the 1st "a" of your name)... I chose the 1D MKIII because it is the Canon Professional camera closest to RED.

Jim

[Häakon]

It is as "apples to apples" as you can get. We are seeing all 10MP from the Canon and about the same from RED when you consider that the RED ONE is a 12MP camera at full 4520 resolution. The 1Ds MKIII is a full frame still sensor that is much larger than S35 film size (and the RED and 1D MKIII).
Sorry Jim, I misread that last post. You're right - the 1Ds is full frame. The sensor in the 1D is closer to RED's size than the 1Ds Mark III, but it's still larger. A more "apples to apples" comparison would be to use one of their cameras with an APS-C sized sensor, like the XSi. I understand your reason for choosing the 1D, however - and the fact that people are having a difficult time telling the difference between these two is even better for RED!

[Jannard]

I'll post the answer later this afternoon. I want more people to have a look at this... in case they have been offline for the past 12 hours.

Jim

[Clint Johnson]

WOW that is impressive.

9_1a – This is the Red camera, there is a more grain-like consistency to the shadows and that is something that they've been working hard to get in B16. There is also just a hint of the vertical fixed noise pattern when the image is lifted way more than it should be. The blue channel is a little rougher on the Red.

9_1b - The colours in the chart are exactly how the Canon 1D Mark III captures them. The colours MAY be marginally more accurate than the Red but it could also be a matter of a poorly calibrated monitor on my part.

Either one of these would be an outstanding image for a still camera. For a motion picture camera... I am back to the word that opened this post- WOW.

[Steve Sherrick]

You mean, in case people are working? :-)

I'm rendering some Red footage, doing some interesting comparisons today, so the render time has allowed me to take part in all of this fun. You sure know how to get us hooked Jim.

[Andrew M.]

We already have got the answer from Jim.

"The 1D MKIII opens at 3888x2592 from an 11.6MB file . So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048."

Definitely the top is RED and the bottom is Canon.

The key is in more detail, shaper image and of course higher resolution.

I am not getting it? Where is the answer?
Canon is uncompressed 10MBytes file.
RED is 10 times smaller.
You can't get so many details from such highly compressed file.
And clearly the top one has more details in it.

[Martin Weiss]

...in case they have been offline for the past 12 hours.

Who would that be? The mysterious RedUser #2? (http://www.reduser.net/forum/member.php?u=2):spidy:

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am not getting it? Where is the answer?
Canon is uncompressed 10MBytes file.
RED is 10 times smaller.
You can't get so many details from such highly compressed file.
And clearly the top one has more details in it.


The clear answer is:

B16.

[Patrick Tresch]

I chose the 1D MKIII because it is the Canon Professional camera closest to RED.

Jim

It would also be interesting to see a comparison with Nikon D300 wich has nearly the same camera aperture as RED ONE.

Pat

[Axel Mertes]

I'll post the answer later this afternoon. I want more people to have a look at this... in case they have been offline for the past 12 hours.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I hope the upper one is the RED, because its having slightly more detail, feels sharper on the focue plane, less "color crosstalk" in out of focus areas.

I suspect its the other way around, though...

Axel

[Antoine Fabi]

I'm a little tired to work with one eye and read this forum with the other eye...

It feels like a Super 3D workspace :) One eye to the left, one eye to the right.

Jim, You're the best marketing guy i've ever seen. ever.

[Jannard]

It would also be interesting to see a comparison with Nikon D300 wich has nearly the same camera aperture as RED ONE.

Pat

It would be interesting if RED is under consideration as a stills camera. Then it should be carefully matched up against every DSLR out there. But I don't think that is the point. The point is that RED can be confused with a professional DSLR and RED shoots 24fps (actually 30fps) to Compact Flash cards and can make movies. I do not expect RED to win every aspect of a shootout against every DSLR on the market. But I am convinced that you have to look pretty hard to point to any deficiency in comparison with the best out there.

Jim

[Patrick Tresch]

So I 1st cropped the Canon to 2:1 format (3888x1944), then scaled it back up (slightly) to 4096x2048.

Jim

Why 2:1 format with build 16????

Pat

[Jannard]

Jim, You're the best marketing guy i've ever seen. ever.

Marketing is manufactured. Enthusiasm is real. I'm just having too much fun with this whole program.
Jim

[Dane Brehm]

I want that ColorChart for my Living Room that thing is huge!

B16 is pulling marks for cleanliness thats for sure.

[Jannard]

Why 2:1 format with build 16????

Pat

I like it better...

Jim

[Antoine Fabi]

Marketing is manufactured. Enthusiasm is real. I'm just having too much fun with this whole program.
Jim

It shows!!!

...and my complaint is that It's too highly contagious!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Why 2:1 format with build 16????

Pat

Have you ever heard about Univisium format?

"MM: What film format was chosen to produce Caravaggio?

VS: We used the Univisium system, which is 35mm film with three perforations per frame.
The cameras were modified to allow us to compose images with a 2:1 aspect ratio.
That was important, because there were plans to release both television and cinema versions of Caravaggio.
I believe that it is important for audiences to experience films the way they are intended to be seen whether
it is seen on a cinema screen or on television. (Editor’s note: Storaro invented the Univisium system during the 1980s,
when the FCC was first considering standards for
high-definition television displays in the U.S., and similar discussions were going on in other countries.)"

Quote from "Vittorio Storaro Paints With His Camera" (http://www.moviemaker.com/cinematography/article/vittorio_storaro_cinematographer_caravaggio_200711 27/) by Bob Fisher.

It's about the brand new universal movie format.

[Sreenivasa Pentela]

1st one is RED because it is better then 2nd. :-)

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

169 posts and no consensus.
I think the point is made.

Jochen

[Joel Kaye]

I think a better question is which one do you like better?

Just quickly looking via the web browser I have to go for the bottom one by a nose. It seems to have a more subtle roll off into the whites. If you look at the fourth column of pastel color chips I think the bottom camera does a better job of showing their slight differentiations. Look at the intensity of the yellow paint tube of the top camera over the more subtle yellow on the bottom camera. Top seems oversaturated to me. A sign over lower latitude?

But they both look good.

[Fix]

Now when I look at the 1'st image it can almost go for a D3 Nikon shoot taken with high iso... that says alot.. And im pretty sure its from the RED. Gives me the creeps.

PS: Nikon D3 is a full frame s35 size chip camera.

[wshultz]

I like the top one. More organic looking to my eye.

[Andrew M.]

Can we add voting to this thread or create the other post to vote on this.
I am curious how voting will do.

1) Top is Canon
2) Top is RED

I presume that we do not have here B16 versus B15

[Teague Kennedy]

I imagine the second is Red because it would have a low pass filter. and moire may be more significant in moving images. canon would likely be more obsessed with sharpness. Good news is -- Red is still more sharp than sharp enough.

[hunterrichards]

I presume that we do not have here B16 versus B15

That would be a shocker.

[kmikami]

I imagine the second is Red because it would have a low pass filter. and moire may be more significant in moving images. canon would likely be more obsessed with sharpness. Good news is -- Red is still more sharp than sharp enough.

The second image has more obvious artificial sharpening added though. Check the edges of the text "Digital ColorChecker."

[Nils Ruinet]

169 posts and no consensus.
I think the point is made.

Jochen

Yes...

Approximate results so far :

35 people think the 1st one was shot on Red,
42 people think it's the 2nd one...

:)

[Corrado Silveri]

I've made some months ago a similar test...
Was REDONE B14 against Canon EOS (1D).
The difference was really noticeable for an expert.

In this case, what can I say?

Seems incredible. Really, I'm not sure about which is which.

[Jonathan Payne]

I know Jim seems to be hinting that A is the Red but if he hadn't said that my gut would be telling me B is the Red (granted i've only seen stills/samples online and never got to play with one myself). So against all odds i will vote
A) Canon
B) Red
...and hope to be wrong :)

[Brian Harbauer]

Hey Jim, to do special characters such as: ü

hold down alt and on the NUMBERPAD punch in a 4 digit number.


You can look it up in word by inserting a symbol, scroll down untill you see the character you want, highlight it, and make sure in the lower right corner, it's not hex, but ASCII. It'll then give you a code like 253 or something - just put a 0 in front.

ü = 0252

Cheers

[jbeale]

The blue channel noise certainly looks different, also the sharpening artifacts, compare the 1:1 crops of the same area on the color chart. I'm suspecting the Canon may have more blue noise, especially since Jim made a point of mentioning noise. The colors are slightly different, more obvious in the blue-only chart than to my eye. I guess "A" is Canon and "B" is Red based only on blue channel noise. But certainly, both of them are good quality images.

http://www.bealecorner.com/D30/misc/RED-Canon-comparison.jpg

[Obin Olson]

B looks like wavelet compression to me.....I can see it in the blue channel image on left is A right is B

[Simon Valderrama]

... guess in the end Jim's point is that making people scratching their heads so long to tell a RED frame from a DSLR frame is already an achievement.
If this is the case i can say that the trick is made easier by our b16 inexperience ... wonder what Shawn could say about this little game :biggrin:

[bernd katzmarczyk]

first one is red - black looks like red´s black. it´s not only black it´s black as black should look like:turned:

[filip kovcin]

just forget about all things connected with resolution, color etc.

if you have TWO different cameras with one sensor size SMALLER and second one BIGGER - and you use same framing (almost) and same f stop (5.6) (iso is also same - as stated before - 320 asa, but this is not important here.)
the question is - where you will see shallower DOF? on smaller or bigger sensor size?

the answer is really simple... just look closer at DOF on color tubes...(if the word "tube" is correct in english)

i am betting 100$ that the picture with the shallower DOF is NOT RED.

who wants to bet?

filip

[kmikami]

The blue channel noise certainly looks different, also the sharpening artifacts, compare the 1:1 crops of the same area on the color chart. I'm suspecting the Canon may have more blue noise, especially since Jim made a point of mentioning noise. The colors are slightly different, more obvious in the blue-only chart than to my eye. I guess "A" is Canon and "B" is Red based only on blue channel noise. But certainly, both of them are good quality images.

Are those white lines around the boxes sharpening artifacts or CA? Image A may have more blue noise but it's a nice noise. Image B looks like it's been denoised which on the one hand makes me think it's the Red since I've seen Red grabs with that "median filter" look. But on the other hand, if the Canon image has been scaled up slightly it might have that blurry, loss of detail look.

[Obin Olson]

I would be happy with build 15 image quality not sure what the big deal is. It's a compressed camera that looks fantastic. Lets move on and get the bugs and post worked out.

[Tico Llaurador]

But also look at the histograms...

"A"

http://www.binaflix.com/images/A_histo.jpg

"B"

http://www.binaflix.com/images/B_histo.jpg

See how "B" behaves compared to "A"?

That's why I say "B" is REDspace.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

My initial guess was that the bottom image was RED and the top the Canon. I have no idea whether that's correct, but my preference for overall image appeal (which is influenced by the different gamma in the two images) is definitely the top. If the top is RED, I am overjoyed.

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's all about B16.

RED with B16 makes even better still picture than Canon 1D MKIII.

That is exactly what Jim wanted to show us.

Top RED.

Bottom Canon.

Take it or leave it.

[Paul Hazlett]

Looking at the blacks in the handle portion of both i see more artifacting that
I attribute to the smaller bandwidth of the Red image in Frame A

But again we must remind ourselves, these frames are wizzing by at 24 per second, cleaner than anyone will possibly see, and I doubt any would be able to tell the difference even if you did a side by side, motion flip book style
test.

Congratulations Guys my jaw droppith in your honor

[Geoff Reisner]

The images look so similar to me that I'll try to use logic instead to figure this one out...

If you were to do a test such as this. I'd imagine that you'd take the shot first with the RED and then try to match framing/settings with the second camera afterwards. The second image is a little bit wider... Jim had to crop and scale the DSLR pic to match the RED one, but he cannot crop and scale to much to fit the original first image, otherwise we'll be affecting the resolution too greatly. So you get it close enough and call it a day...

Secondly, the top image is in better focus...which camera does Jim shoot with more often? I think Jim is more likely to nail focus on a RED shot than a DSLR shot.

I say Top image :)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

there is no clear answer...period
when pixelpeepers got problems to tell the difference using photoshop, 200 %crops,bluechannel analysis, histograms etc...

i can cleary say that no one ever will be able to tell the difference in a
suspense scene, where the tension almost breaks your neck...

i am talking for myself, but hey who cares which one is red or canon?
i am really happy today...

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The images look so similar to me that I'll try to use logic instead to figure this one out...

If you were to do a test such as this. I'd imagine that you'd take the shot first with the RED and then try to match framing/settings with the second camera afterwards. The second image is a little bit wider... Jim had to crop and scale the DSLR pic to match the RED one, but he cannot crop and scale to much to fit the original first image, otherwise we'll be affecting the resolution too greatly. So you get it close enough and call it a day...

Secondly, the top image is in better focus...which camera does Jim shoot with more often? I think Jim is more likely to nail focus on a RED shot than a DSLR shot.

I say Top image :)

who says that he uploaded the images in this order? :)

[Paul Hazlett]

there is no clear answer...period
when pixelpeepers got problems to tell the difference using photoshop, 200 %crops,bluechannel analysis, histograms etc......

This is very true, If its this hard to tell the difference on a still wait till
you see it in action

[Geoff Reisner]

who says that he uploaded the images in this order?
I don't think the order matters at all. The first shot is tighter though. The Red shot would be tighter in my opinion because the DSLR has more resolution and he knows he's going to have to crop it...

[Dave Weber]

My guess is that the top is RED and the bottom is Canon. I did some color checking in PS and the top pic seems to lean more to the blue side.

My conclusion is based on the fact that RED is daylight balanced therefore it must be the top pic.

Hell, i just sold myself on it ...... anyone else?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the answer is here
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14689

[Steve Thomson]

Hate to be a spoil sport but if you really want to go head to head with an SLR you really need to shoot a wide shot exterior at dusk.

I have just travelled for a month shooting paris and venice on BOTH red - a nikon d3 and a canon 1DmkII.

On build 15 the red does not come close to the dslrs. Sorry.

I am very hopeful that build 16 has huge advances in lowlight but in saying that - I still am deliriously happy with my red.

Personally I think is an unfair comparison considering red has to shoot 25 frames per second and a top end slr does a max of 1 a second without buffering.

Just trying to be honest and not a fanboy.....

[Fix]

I agree that Red cant beat a D3 Nikon. D3's low light ability is way superior and you can take decent pictures even at 10 000 iso.. But that top picture is really good anyhow and IMO it surly kick many slr's butt, if it is a Red.

[jbeale]

Are those white lines around the boxes sharpening artifacts or CA? Image A may have more blue noise but it's a nice noise. Image B looks like it's been denoised which on the one hand makes me think it's the Red since I've seen Red grabs with that "median filter" look. But on the other hand, if the Canon image has been scaled up slightly it might have that blurry, loss of detail look.

Looks like sharpening to me, because it is symmetric about each color box. Chromatic abberation is symmetric about the optical axis (center of the image), and since this crop is to one side of the image, CA would look different on opposite sides of the box.

[Ivan G]

Jim! For the love of GOD! Which one is which?

[Peter McCully]

Ok, my reasoning was in the edges of the gray squares in the color chart. For reasons I don't pretend to know, there are softer edges on the Red image. Perhaps its something to do with the in-camera sharpening of Canon. It would be good to see a side-by-side in which the focus was the same.
Note to the US redsters, I've spelled gray, not grey as we do in NZ and color, not colour! Just being culturally sensitive!

[Ramesh Jai]

Both are RED. The top has been Photoshopped. Ahem...

[Häakon]

PS: Nikon D3 is a full frame s35 size chip camera.
The Nikon D3 is a full frame 35mm dSLR, which is not equivalent to s35. RED has recently been calling their camera "full frame," as it matches the size of single frame of s35mm motion picture film. So while technically this is correct, the term "full frame" was coined for and is most commonly used in correlation with digital still cameras and does NOT carry the same meaning. Nearly all dSLRs had "cropped sensors" (ie, they did not take advantage of a 35mm lens' full area of coverage) - in the same way that the RED shoots 2K windowed. A full-frame dSLR, like the Nikon D3, has a much larger sensor than the one in the RED ONE.

This post explains the differences:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=232566&postcount=31

As has been mentioned several times, the Canon XSi or Nikon D300 would much more closely match the frame size of the RED.

[Fix]

You are absolutely right Haakon. My bad. I meant of course full frame 35mm dSLR (D3). I dident mean that the RED have a "Full frame" chip in the same terms. Trust me, I do know the difference. Thx for clearing it out though. I dont want to make confusion around here.

[Poi Boy]

I'd say Red 1 and Canon 2.....I love that is is so hard to tell. Bring on 16 ! I can't take any more.
Aloha
-A

[kmikami]

Looks like sharpening to me, because it is symmetric about each color box. Chromatic abberation is symmetric about the optical axis (center of the image), and since this crop is to one side of the image, CA would look different on opposite sides of the box.

I guess you're right. The thing is, those edges are really obvious when looking at the blue channel but the edges of the squares don't really look unnaturally sharpened when looking at the full RGB image.

But on the RED image, what are these artifacts in the red channel (exaggerated with levels) if not sharpening artifacts?

[wedowee]

I found some busy work to keep me occupied for the afternoon, hoping to come back and see the answer. The house has never looked cleaner. Now tell us before I have to go mow the lawn!!!

[Craig Ryan]

you guys REALLY need to get outta this thread lol

[Jaime Vallés]

Just now got around to seeing this. Fantastic experiment, Jim! I have no idea which is which. The fact that they're so close is truly amazing.

[jbeale]

I found some busy work to keep me occupied for the afternoon, hoping to come back and see the answer. The house has never looked cleaner. Now tell us before I have to go mow the lawn!!!

Jim posted the answer in a separate thread (below), I guess so you don't have to look if you enjoy savoring the suspense.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14689

[Patrick Tresch]

Have you ever heard about Univisium format?


Yes.

I Just asked because red has a 16:9 sensor... and 16:9 problems have been resolved with build 16.

But Jim still loves 2:1 better.

Patrick

[Andrew Brinkhaus]

Whats amazing...Is that this is still going on unknown!

[Jeremy Teman]

No, Andrew. Jim has the answer in a new thread.

[Mark K.]

Upper: Red
Lower: Canon

I'm guessing that by the chromatic aberrations visible in the top image.

[Harrison Diamond]

Well, this is certainly a treat. While I had my defective Mark III replaced and sold the replacement last year, the image quality out of that camera was fantastic. Seeing this comparison makes me even more thrilled to be in a position where this camera will be available to me.

The posting of all these stills may make us all pixel peepers, but we must remember not to think too much like still photographers. After all, for the most part, we are buying RED not to shoot single frames but rather to shoot moving pictures. Coming from a background with a lot of DV but nothing high quality, and a much more intensive background in high end still photography, I'm used to thinking like a still photographer technically.

So while the Mark III image may have some advantages as is, the fact that RED can even be in the same league while shooting 24fps for extended periods of time, and that there is still room for improvement with standard processing techniques is simply incredible. Not to mention the fact that the Mark III, though 10mp, has a significantly larger sensor (APS-H 28.1x18.7mm).

RED can hang with the very best here. And I shudder to think of what is coming from RED Digital Cinema say 2 years down the line. Look at the advancements in the past 2-3 years in the still world with CMOS sensors.