RED-one/Film, LUTs, Color Space Workflow

[bentpixel]

I've just stumbled into some new territory as of late. And I don't really understand certain workflow implications dealing with film-type workflow. So please hold my hand and speak really slow. I'm working on a music video thats been shot on the RED-one camera. My understanding is the RED shoots 12-bit linear. Now the footage that comes is RAW so you have to view it through a lut. Keep in mind we are kind of learning these workflow details as we go. The guys I'm working with gave me the footage as 12-bit DPX files out of a Scratch system. Now they were viewing the footage in Scratch through a HD Rec-709 lut, I pulled up the DPX later on in front of one of the guys in After Effects and the footage looked really dark. He thought something was wrong on the export (ie. something got applied to the footage on export). So I poked around in AE and found HD Rec-709 project settings and applied them and then the footage seemed to be correct. Now is this correct?? I'm pretty new to the idea of luts (I usually just deal with video, NTSC, HD) so am I right path?? Also when I give the composites back should I render out DPXs with any special settings or is there a better way. And I've got some Maya work to do on it so how exactly does this workflow fit into that. Ya I know, I've stepped into some deep mess.

[Obin Olson]

deep mess...someone really should write a LUT and bit depth for Dummy's around here...

[Lucas Wilson]

I've just stumbled into some new territory as of late. And I don't really understand certain workflow implications dealing with film-type workflow. So please hold my hand and speak really slow. I'm working on a music video thats been shot on the RED-one camera. My understanding is the RED shoots 12-bit linear. Now the footage that comes is RAW so you have to view it through a lut. Keep in mind we are kind of learning these workflow details as we go. The guys I'm working with gave me the footage as 12-bit DPX files out of a Scratch system. Now they were viewing the footage in Scratch through a HD Rec-709 lut, I pulled up the DPX later on in front of one of the guys in After Effects and the footage looked really dark. He thought something was wrong on the export (ie. something got applied to the footage on export). So I poked around in AE and found HD Rec-709 project settings and applied them and then the footage seemed to be correct. Now is this correct?? I'm pretty new to the idea of luts (I usually just deal with video, NTSC, HD) so am I right path?? Also when I give the composites back should I render out DPXs with any special settings or is there a better way. And I've got some Maya work to do on it so how exactly does this workflow fit into that. Ya I know, I've stepped into some deep mess.

Hey man - you *really* need a post supervisor on the job that can help you out. There are so many variables and stuff that needs to be kept track of that you need someone to hold it all together. Especially if you're dealing with mixing practical and VFX from different vendors, then yes, it could quickly become deep mess. :)

It's not *that* complicated and it's not rocket science, but it is pretty involved and requires keeping track of many different variables across several stages of post-production. It definitely is not something you learn and deal with on-the-fly during an active production.

Do yourself a favor and hire someone to help guide you through it.

What SCRATCH facility are you using? (and fyi - they gave you 10-bit DPX, not 12. :) )

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

[bentpixel]

Sorry, my head has been a little cloudy lately. Of course its 10-bit dpx not 12-bit :clown2: , my bad. Anyway I think the workflow is becoming a little clearer now, but again I'd like to get some kind of clarification on my questions. Oh, I should have stated that the production in question is low-budget so I AM going to learn what I need to know on-the-fly. I just worked on a quick shot 10-bit dpx with rec-709 space. I worked in AE (which managed the rec-709) at 32-bit (is that normal or can I work at 16-bit) and gave them back the final as dpx. No complaints, everyone was happy. If there is some links you can point me to that will get me going it would be much appreciated. Oh yeah, Scratch facility DR&A Nashville. Thanks Luki.

[Jay A. Kelley]

If it's really dark you may need to apply a 2.2 gamma to an adjustment layer using the Levels effect
Jay

[Kyle Mallory]

Lucas,

Not much help, man. Suspecting that you're somewhat of an expert in these areas, I was hoping you might contribute something a little more worth while. Take a moment to consider that maybe he's not the only one asking, and that perhaps he's not in a position to hire someone.

A LUT's for Dummy's post would be fantastic. I always struggle ensuring that what I see on my screen is what I will get when its distributed and projected.

[Lucas Wilson]

Lucas,

Not much help, man. Suspecting that you're somewhat of an expert in these areas, I was hoping you might contribute something a little more worth while. Take a moment to consider that maybe he's not the only one asking, and that perhaps he's not in a position to hire someone.

A LUT's for Dummy's post would be fantastic. I always struggle ensuring that what I see on my screen is what I will get when its distributed and projected.

Kyle,

Not trying to be secretive or not helpful. Writing a "Color Management and LUTs for Dummies" thing is something I would love to do and I know it would be helpful... it would just take me a few days of concentrated effort to do it right, and I don't have a few days.

Lucas

[Lucas Wilson]

Sorry, my head has been a little cloudy lately. Of course its 10-bit dpx not 12-bit :clown2: , my bad. Anyway I think the workflow is becoming a little clearer now, but again I'd like to get some kind of clarification on my questions. Oh, I should have stated that the production in question is low-budget so I AM going to learn what I need to know on-the-fly. I just worked on a quick shot 10-bit dpx with rec-709 space. I worked in AE (which managed the rec-709) at 32-bit (is that normal or can I work at 16-bit) and gave them back the final as dpx. No complaints, everyone was happy. If there is some links you can point me to that will get me going it would be much appreciated. Oh yeah, Scratch facility DR&A Nashville. Thanks Luki.

Hey... Kyle and the team at DR&A is pretty knowledgeable. Have you talked to them about all this?

Lucas

[Cüneyt Kaya]

this is cool for understanding the basics:
http://cinespace.risingsunresearch.com/docs/ColourManagement.pdf

[bentpixel]

Hey... Kyle and the team at DR&A is pretty knowledgeable. Have you talked to them about all this?

Lucas

Oh yeah Kyle is a good friend. He is my main contact there. Actually its he and I who are always discussing LUTs, colorspace, and the like. The both of us are pretty much on the same page about everything. This workflow is kind of new territory for us. I'm sure it's not rocket science to understand or anything, its just that with the millions of variables that populate the process, there are always small pieces of the big picture missing. You know, the constant learning process. I am coming from a VFX background (for video), I'm just trying to meet them in the middle.

K. Berlin ... thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[Lucas Wilson]

Oh yeah Kyle is a good friend. He is my main contact there. Actually its he and I who are always discussing LUTs, colorspace, and the like. The both of us are pretty much on the same page about everything. This workflow is kind of new territory for us. I'm sure it's not rocket science to understand or anything, its just that with the millions of variables that populate the process, there are always small pieces of the big picture missing. You know, the constant learning process. I am coming from a VFX background (for video), I'm just trying to meet them in the middle.

K. Berlin ... thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Bent (since I don't know your real name...)

Kyle has my mobile #. Why don't y'all give me a call over the weekend if you're working, or on Monday before 10AM PST.

Lucas