Build 16 + PC = NO (Or not yet)

[Jay A. Kelley]

If I understood Jim's post (And I may have missed something). REDCine will NOT be supporting build 16 when it hits beta.

So for all practical purposes, build 16 is not going to be something those of us on a PC workflow can use when it comes out.. That is, until the new REDCine comes out to support it.

So, for those of us on PCs (And there are a fair number) the real question is not "when will build 16 be released" but "When will REDCine be released?"

Or when will REDAlert for PC be released? :)

If I am wrong about this (And I would LOVE to be) please tell me.

Jay

[Greg M]

Jim stated several times that Red Cine support will happen no later than the final release of 16.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ouch.. So sadly I am correct. Build 16 Beta is not going to be something that most PC users will be allowed to test.

Yeah.. That kind a sucks

Jay

[Roberto B]

So, for those of us on PCs (And there are a fair number) more than five PC users over this account at least..

[Matthew Rogers]

Jim stated several times that Red Cine support will happen no later than the final release of 16.

And look how long we've been in beta on build 15... I want to upgrade to Build 16 when it comes out, but without RedCine I am stuck with doing a DPX output through Crimson/Redline and the grading in Color--which isn't bad for a short piece, but a 5 minute+ piece will suck up alot of hard drive space!

Matthew

[Dave Neathery]

Jim stated several times that Red Cine support will happen no later than the final release of 16.

The good news is that he also said that with all the alpha testing they have been doing, he expects the beta phase to be very short.

By the way, A warning for all of us who are on PC: I stupidly let Apple upgrade me to Quicktime 7.5 so far as I can tell, with 7.5 you cannot extract any audio. Fortunately, I was able to find a website that had 7.4 available for download. After I installed that, I could extract the audio files again. Pretty scarey stuff, I really thought I was toast.

Dave

[Craig Bowman]

It'll happen eventually.

I'm more interested in the SDK to see how much of an interface will actually be there and if we'll get any detailed specs on r3d.

[conrad gaunt]

It'll happen eventually.

I'm more interested in the SDK to see how much of an interface will actually be there and if we'll get any detailed specs on r3d.

I`ll second that, but if the SDK is good, I won`t care about .r3d specs, just let me extract the image data directly, that`ll be a good day, and worth being patient for.

[REDefine]

SDK will be another milestone in the history of RED. Desperately waiting for it.

[Obin Olson]

Yep pc la d is high and dry. Not a good thing.

[Jannard]

Yep pc la d is high and dry. Not a good thing.

You guys are too funny...

I said no later than the release version. It is very possible that it will be sooner. We understand what you guys need and are working overtime to deliver. So take you hand away from your forehead... :-)

Jim

[Sean]

Whew. I was afraid to ask. But Jay is fearless.

I'm loving my TIFF sequences out of RedCine on Build 15. Looking forward to Build 16 in RedCine too.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Whew. I was afraid to ask. But Jay is fearless.

I'm loving my TIFF sequences out of RedCine on Build 15. Looking forward to Build 16 in RedCine too.

He he he.. Not fearless, but just trying to help.. It would suck if you were all PC and then upgraded to B16 without realizing you had no REDCine.

That would suck hard.. I just wanted everyone to be clear, that if you are not a MAC person, make damn sure you are aware of what you're getting into before you upgrade.

But like Jim says, it's possible REDCine for 16 may be out sooner than we think

Jay

[Greg M]

Surely you guys must have at least 30-40k (if not much more) invested in your Red...why not invest $2500 in a MBPro? It will be the best $2500 you spent, not only for your Red One, but for your facility as well.

We are an all PC facility, and have been for 25 years. I ordered a MBPro the day our Red arrived (our first and only Mac)...the best $2500 I spent on the Red! It makes working with Red so much easier and also isnt a bad thing to have in a PC Facility. We find we use it for much more than we thought, so much so that we are now building a full blown FC Suite to compliment our PC and Linux workstations.

The MBPro is part of our field package...the Red doesnt go out w/o it. Which btw is just another revenue stream...and the MBPro has paid for itself several times over in the 6+ months we've had the camera thru additional rental fees.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

In today's world, I seriously don't see how anyone can be 100% dedicated to a single platform.

I also second the suggestion of a MBPro. If it doesn't pay for itself within a couple weeks, you're doing something wrong.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I've been in business for 15 years. I am a single platform.. I seem to be doing just fine over here. I am grateful for the helpful comments but I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing... So far I have managed to stay afloat.

When the SDK comes out, the MAC/PC issue will be a non-starter. I think it's reasonable, with people knowing this is going to happen, to decide to put their money in other things rather than a new computer/operating system/software.

Jay

[Häakon]

If I understood Jim's post (And I may have missed something). REDCine will NOT be supporting build 16 when it hits beta.
Jay,

I don't know where you got that information, but Jim stated that REDCine will be available when we "have access" to build 16. Unless for some reason they aren't letting all camera users have access to the beta - like they have with every other build - it shouldn't be a problem.


Haakon... you won't have access to Build 16 until there is REDCINE support.

[number6]

I've been in business for 15 years. I am a single platform.. I seem to be doing just fine over here. I am grateful for the helpful comments but I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing... So far I have managed to stay afloat.

When the SDK comes out, the MAC/PC issue will be a non-starter. I think it's reasonable, with people knowing this is going to happen, to decide to put their money in other things rather than a new computer/operating system/software.

Jay

And besides, the guy who plays the Mac in the Mac/PC commercials is a subliminally condescending elitist who dresses like I do which tries to define me as a "suit" just because I use a PC and!!!....

...well, truth be known, I just don't have the money, the time, the need or even the desire to know every way possible to process footage. To me, that is what RED affords. I can learn one camera system, then one workflow system, and spend my time shooting instead of holed up in a dark room with every imaginable type of computer rattling and monitors flashing.

I agree with Jay.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've been in business for 15 years. I am a single platform.. I seem to be doing just fine over here. I am grateful for the helpful comments but I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing... So far I have managed to stay afloat.

Jay, I wasn't picking on you personally or anything like that. I don't know your business situation, nor is it really any of my concern anyway. But the way I look at a tool like the MacBook Pro, is it can only expand your abilities. I find that limiting myself only to Windows (and I did this for many years) is just very restrictive. Perhaps in your market, it is not... For me, a Macbook Pro equipped with an eSATA RAID and FW800 CF reader is worth its weight in gold as an on-set, in-the-field, offload and RED-Alert / REDCINE station.

I agree on the SDK... It will open a whole new universe of possibilities. Can't hardly wait for it myself.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I really think it's time for somebody to build - www.buyamacforjaykelly.com


you can live your whole life on one platform ... but life is just too short ...

[Greg M]

I really think it's time for somebody to build - www.buyamacforjaykelly.com


you can live your whole life on one platform ... but life is just too short ...

I think you are going to need a good hypnotist for this one.

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know guys, if I did not know you all so well, I might take some of these comments as insulting.

I'm sure that none of us are arrogant enough to tell one another "how to do it" since we've all been around long enough to know, there is no one way to do anything in this business.

Also, I have said I do not OWN a Mac based system. I never said I don't make use of them, or Avid, or a Newtek, or Vegas, or a number of other systems. For me every tool serves a specific purpose. But I spend my money on one platform that I keep running well, instead of a little money on a number of partial systems.

Right now, for me, RED's limitation to one system (by this I mean that it's set up for macs more than others, not that it only works on ONE system) is a reason to wait. I like making my choices when the playing field has a number of options. Once the SDK is out, and everyone has hit the ground running, then the cream will rise to the top and I will decide if I need to move or upgrade anything.. I'm not going to spend $7,000 - $11,000 on an editing system whose clain to fame is that it's currently the only one that's completely supported.

You know I promised myself long ago I'd stay away from debates like this.

I'd like to point out in all my time here, I have never suggested to anyone, at any time, that they are wrong or right because of what they own or what they do with their business. I've always thought you cannot do such things until you walk in their shoes.

The thread was created to warn people to make sure that REDCine was available for their specific platform before upgrading. That's all.

We've done that so I wonder if there's any reason for this thread to continue.

Jay

[Greg M]

Jay,
As long as we keep messing with you...it just means we like you!!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Jay,
As long as we keep messing with you...it just means we like you!!

Exactly.:w00t:

[Jannard]

Jay was one of the nicest guys I met at NAB...

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

wow... Ok... I feel pretty good right now....

Thank you all. Likewise I'm sure!

:)

Jay

[laguun]

I have to sayt that we understand jays concern - and that they are shared by many red customers here in Germany, no matter if they use Windows, OSX or both on their PCs.

Choice is good and competition is good. Red was promoting open workflow.

Then being forced to FCP as offline editing tools (we own it, but we and most customers prefer other NLE and also on-line finishing NLE) and locking out the huge majority of all higgh-end post of *natiive* support was certainly irritating for many customers - and was, i have to say that, the only massive glicht in reds customer comunications. No one told us that all manufacturers would stay locked out for 10 months or so at IBC - and therefore many people are afraid that there once more is a hidden plan or something - as there was one.

There are many systems (discreet, cineform, iridas etc) who already supported or support redcode - but not officially and not for endusers. Its of huge importance that these companies and their users finally can work with the excellent images from the red one.

Red losts *lots* of its momemtum here in Germany due to these limitations, this week alone 3 productions who like the red a lot with all beta 15 issues and wanted to shoot on it decided against red for lesser cameras - as they needed inhouse post and their (experienced) postguys said to slow, to complicated, to incompatible - they will wait until they get a good workflow with their systems. Our post is booked out, we even have people working at the customers studios (a situation i dont like to much) in order to having working post pipelines - no matter if fcp/crimson, avid/metacheater or scratch are in the pipeline. redcine without Timecode support/edl is *quite* complicated for advanced VFX in workgroup pipelines, and many freelancers simply dont have the dozens of terrabytes we can use for the "access all areas, dont render in post" workflow with transcode at the start of the pipeline.

One needs windows or linux for top-end finishing anyhow, no matter if speedgrade with sdi/scratch/lustre/flame/smoke/quantel iQ eQ/avid ds nitris/dvs clipster/filmlight baselight etc - all the _massive_ systems are not on osx.

I cant wait until the windows support allows 3hd parties in - and thats, besides image quality *the* main feature of R16 we are waiting for. Its *the* feature which makes red change from the brilliant pioneer tool which is "not for anyone" to *the* common sense tool.

And its good to be reassured by Jim that 3hrd party support for redcode and SDK are top priority.

[Ash Bolland]

Sadley [:wink: ] we are going to buy mac for the red + finalcut - or we could use the mac mini we use for itunes player in the studio :)

[laguun]

Sadley [:wink: ] we are going to buy mac for the red + finalcut - or we could use the mac mini we use for itunes player in the studio :)

I would wait. The FCP on OSX is not realtime in HQ, not 4k, not 12bit RGB... we use it as offline if we go redcode native and with i.e. cineform & adobe there are much more powerful, higher quality online tools just waiting for R16.

[REDefine]

Interesting times ahead. RED team starts working on SDK.
Any guesstimate how much time it might take, I don't have slightest clue.

[Sean]

This topic does love to reoccur. Just thought I'd add that switching to a MBPro isn't simply a matter of coughing up another $2500. It's tossing and re-purchasing a dozen expensive applications and other OS-specific hardware. It's years of invested time and energy into thoroughly understanding an operating system and related software applications. It's the practical hardware and financial advantages of staying with PC, despite the current impracticality of dealing with Red footage in the PC world. I'd rather wait a few more months rather than invest a lot more money and months and months of time in reaching the same deep understanding of the OS. If it were as simple as a $2500 investment in a MBPro, I'd be there. But for me it's not.

[Jarred Land]

Redcine for build 16 (PC) will be available by the time Build 16 Stable is released. Might not be the option you want to hear, but it is an option.

[Greg M]

This topic does love to reoccur. Just thought I'd add that switching to a MBPro isn't simply a matter of coughing up another $2500. It's tossing and re-purchasing a dozen expensive applications and other OS-specific hardware. It's years of invested time and energy into thoroughly understanding an operating system and related software applications. It's the practical hardware and financial advantages of staying with PC, despite the current impracticality of dealing with Red footage in the PC world. I'd rather wait a few more months rather than invest a lot more money and months and months of time in reaching the same deep understanding of the OS. If it were as simple as a $2500 investment in a MBPro, I'd be there. But for me it's not.


Sorry, but it is really that simple...except the $2500 should be $3500, which is exactly what I spent on my MBPro + FCS. If it takes you years to master OSX, then you need to consider another career. Sorry to be so frank...

No need to toss anything...the MBPro will get along swimmingly with your PC's

[Jeff Kilgroe]

switching to a MBPro isn't simply a matter of coughing up another $2500. It's tossing and re-purchasing a dozen expensive applications and other OS-specific hardware.

You don't have to toss anything, you would just be buying a new notebook computer. Oh, it runs Windows too and runs it very well.


It's years of invested time and energy into thoroughly understanding an operating system and related software applications.

I'm with Greg on this one... If you feel that way, time for a career change.


It's the practical hardware and financial advantages of staying with PC, despite the current impracticality of dealing with Red footage in the PC world. I'd rather wait a few more months rather than invest a lot more money and months and months of time in reaching the same deep understanding of the OS.

What about the advantages and potential increase in customers / client-base by expanding your abilities? But that's OK, you can wait... If you're waiting, you're not creating.

[REDefine]

Jeff you are right about MB Pro. But you will have to agree there is more at stake here. FCS is not a good match for Priemere Pro in terms of 4K. There are still lot of issues with FCS and RED work flow. But in PC land, Cineform + PPro offers a great solution for RED workflow at the best of prices.

[Greg M]

We use FCS to OFFLINE, and dont have any issues. Every Red project we shoot starts in FCS. For $995, you cant go wrong, and as I mentioned earlier my $3500 investment has been paid for by my clients about 10 times now.

"BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME."

This is the best advise I ever heeded.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff you are right about MB Pro. But you will have to agree there is more at stake here. FCS is not a good match for Priemere Pro in terms of 4K. There are still lot of issues with FCS and RED work flow. But in PC land, Cineform + PPro offers a great solution for RED workflow at the best of prices.

...And no one said you even had to use FCS. After all, you could just use the Mac to process / develop your RED footage. You could run PPro on OSX in addition to Windows. OSX does not automatically mean that people must run FCS. But that said, FCS is highly recommended. Don't cut your own throat by not offering such an option. Lots of clients out there will only work in FCS and may need content that is already prepped and ready to import or even partially completed projects, etc..

[Poi Boy]

I guess the point is that eventually the PC path will be great but right now it is not. So... for 3500. macbucks you have a money machine that does what you need right now. seems like a no brainer to me.
Aloha
-A

[Jay A. Kelley]

Redcine for build 16 (PC) will be available by the time Build 16 Stable is released. Might not be the option you want to hear, but it is an option.

Uhhh, Jarred,

Jim is saying he thinks REDCine will be out by week's end.. Is he wrong? or do you expect a stable build of REDCine by then ?(Do not read me being a smart ass into this.. It might sound that way a little, but this is a sincere question.. Just trying to clear it up)

Jay

[Jarred Land]

Uhhh, Jarred,

Jim is saying he thinks REDCine will be out by week's end.. Is he wrong? or do you expect a stable build of REDCine by then ?(Do not read me being a smart ass into this.. It might sound that way a little, but this is a sincere question.. Just trying to clear it up)

Jay

you know Jay.... if you read both our posts and think about them you can realize that both can be true...

[Jay A. Kelley]

you know Jay.... if you read both our posts and think about them you can realize that both can be true...

Ok fine. That's good enough for me.. the only part I really cared about was JIM'S part being true, since that is this weekend!

:)

Jay

[Erik Widding]

Sorry, but it is really that simple...except the $2500 should be $3500, which is exactly what I spent on my MBPro + FCS. If it takes you years to master OSX, then you need to consider another career. Sorry to be so frank...

No need to toss anything...the MBPro will get along swimmingly with your PC's

I was at the new apple store in Boston, just a couple of blocks from here on Sunday. Seems our mac minis won't let me run FCS. I need to be able to edit some really basic footage, 30 seconds at a time max. Maybe we will use it for more later. Came to the conclusion that I needed a MBPro ($2000) and FCS ($1300).

So, what configuration of the MBPro, disk/processor/memory, is good enough for basic usage? What else (i.e. card reader) should I add?

As we move into the territory of lens compensation, automated collimation, etc, it will become important for me to have a testbed that is comparable to what others are using in the field. Anybody care to comment?

[Greg M]

I was at the new apple store in Boston, just a couple of blocks from here on Sunday. Seems our mac minis won't let me run FCS. I need to be able to edit some really basic footage, 30 seconds at a time max. Maybe we will use it for more later. Came to the conclusion that I needed a MBPro ($2000) and FCS ($1300).

So, what configuration of the MBPro, disk/processor/memory, is good enough for basic usage? What else (i.e. card reader) should I add?

As we move into the territory of lens compensation, automated collimation, etc, it will become important for me to have a testbed that is comparable to what others are using in the field. Anybody care to comment?


Depends on budget- this config is $3300, and would be ideal:
MacBook Pro, 17-inch
Part Number: Z0F2
Accessory Kit
2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
200GB Serial ATA Drive @ 7200 rpm
MacBook Pro 17-inch Hi-Resolution LED Widescreen Display

[Alexander Christ]

Eric, the MacBook Pro 15'' basic configuration with 2.4GHz $1,999 should do that job. Upgrading the RAM to 4GB is useful, you can buy additional RAM at reasonable prices from http://www.otherworldcomputing.com/.

edit: if your budget is higher get the configuration from digitalfx

[laguun]

you know Jay.... if you read both our posts and think about them you can realize that both can be true...

Di i understand this correctly?
Redcine and stable R16 will be already out end of the week?
That would excellent!

[Tom Lowe]

Don't Macs only account for something like 10% of computers?

To me, I find it insane to spend 5 grand on a computer and an ass-kickin' video card I can't even play games on. :)

[Meryem Ersoz]

Don't Macs only account for something like 10% of computers?



Not in the multimedia world.

To me, it seems odd to spend $4K on a mattebox and not to expect to spend a dime on the basic post pipeline tools.

You can run your expensive windows apps on a mac, so it is not as if you are losing access to these tools. Of course, it doesn't flow the other way...

Just sayin' -- I hope the 3rd party tools improve rapidly for everybody.

[Kevin Halverson]

Don't Macs only account for something like 10% of computers?

To me, I find it insane to spend 5 grand on a computer and an ass-kickin' video card I can't even play games on. :)

Last I read, the North American market share was near 8%, the world wide market share was nearer 3%.

As for 'game playin' we all have to prioritize our expenditures! :blush:

[Joe Carney]

Depends on budget- this config is $3300, and would be ideal:
MacBook Pro, 17-inch
Part Number: Z0F2
Accessory Kit
2.6GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
200GB Serial ATA Drive @ 7200 rpm
MacBook Pro 17-inch Hi-Resolution LED Widescreen Display

You didn't mention which video card.

Since I'm moving all my systems to Vista64 I may need a MPPro for field capture and process.

[Greg M]

This is a MBPro, the video card is part of the system.

[Greg M]

To me, it seems odd to spend $4K on a mattebox and not to expect to spend a dime on the basic post pipeline tools.



Exactly... I consider the MBPro an essential part of our Red Camera Package. We never go out w/o it.

[laguun]

Don't Macs only account for something like 10% of computers?

To me, I find it insane to spend 5 grand on a computer and an ass-kickin' video card I can't even play games on. :)

Not in the top DI end world. OSX is pretty close to 1% there, not 10%.

All the biggest systems of all the mayor players are not on OSX.

avid: media composer osx, DS and DS nitris no OSX.
discreet: combustion osx, flame, smoke, inferno, lustre no OSX.
quantel: iQ/eQ/pablo etc.
Pure 4K systems, as DVS clipster or filmlight baselight are not available on OSX as well, and the list (sadly) continues.
Also the mid-sized DI systems dont run on OSX, but windows (as assimilate scratch), the expception is iridas speedgrade - but due to apple the OSX speedgrade has no SDI support.

That the best applications are not available on OSX (or back then, os 9) was one of the main reason we left Apple as main platform in ~1998/99 after long and happy years and only have them as offline/compability computers.

[Sean]

Aw, well, this career has paid me pretty well so far and continues to enrich my creative soul, even with a PC based production office! So strange to go from offering a perspective to being told by some in this community to make a career change. My films and produced screenplays should probably have more to do with that decision than the brand of my computer. But online forums do bring out the worst in us all. Like many here, I have been exposed to both, but ultimately we're all different with different creative and business needs. But it's sort of moot since Red is supporting both PC and Mac, just not on the same timeline, so...all I was doing was offering another perspective. I also live in an Avid world, which has been PC-centric. That may evolve, but there are still a lot of reasons for me to stay the course. And I am managing my Red workflow without owning a Mac, even when I have to lean on a friend or two once in a while.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Last I read, the North American market share was near 8%, the world wide market share was nearer 3%.

As for 'game playin' we all have to prioritize our expenditures! :blush:

Damn right!

Quake.. Then everything else.. like food.

Or did you have something else in mind?

:blink:

[ATF]

I'm partial to Team Fortress 2 and Warhammer 40k at the moment.. and then food.

That's what the Win XP SP3 machine in the corner is for! The Mac Pro/MB Pro/PowerMac G5 do all the actual work.

Best!

ATF

[Barry Green]

Ok fine. That's good enough for me.. the only part I really cared about was JIM'S part being true, since that is this weekend!

:)

Jay
I think you read it wrong, Jay. Re-read what Jarred said: RedCine (PC) will be out when Build 16 Stable is out. That doesn't say RedCine Mac has to wait though.

The way I read that, they're going to launch RedCine Mac in the next few days, and RedCine PC won't necessarily follow right away, and it may be delayed until Build 16 Stable is out.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok if you're right then this is bad.. Very very bad.

Damn

Jay

[Jarred Land]

You guys need to stop jumping to conclusions... I just said by the time BUILD 16 STABLE is released, there will be a PC REDCINE for support.. this was a direct response to us releasing only RA for mac at the time of the alpha release.


Both REDCINE for MAC and PC will be out very shortly... and most likely at the same time.

[Jay A. Kelley]

ok.. I'll just sit here.

:)

Jay

[Maz Mawlawi]

Hopefully one day there will be no need for PC vs MAC debate on this forum.....:blush:

[Jarred Land]

ok.. I'll just sit here.

:)

Jay

Ok.. if your just sitting there bored and have nothing to do.. check your email.

[Thor Wixom]

Jay, you get all the cool emails.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Too much learning curve for a MAC\FCP route.

And too much extra expense for a questionable advantage.

I personally don't care that much for the tools, as long as they're good-enough.

Anyway, regardless of whether one goes MAC or PC... the person(s) sitting in front of the computer will always be the most important link in the chain. :tongue:

(Oh, I better get back to that Karl Reisz book... sya).

:)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Hopefully one day there will be no need for PC vs MAC debate on this forum.....:blush:


Yeah, when we all go Linux. :sorcerer:

[Clint Johnson]

Not in the multimedia world.

To me, it seems odd to spend $4K on a mattebox and not to expect to spend a dime on the basic post pipeline tools.

You can run your expensive windows apps on a mac, so it is not as if you are losing access to these tools. Of course, it doesn't flow the other way...

Just sayin' -- I hope the 3rd party tools improve rapidly for everybody.

Nah, it is more like they already own a $4,000 mattebox and don't really want to buy another $4,000 mattebox that is a little slower, has the controls in slightly different places and only takes about a third of the filters they have without swapping out to an entirely different tray system to do it. And that original mattebox is supposed to be supported shortly.

If there was a paying gig that required it right this minute and the return on investment was short enough - then it isn't really that big a deal to buy a Mac system since they are pretty much "six of one half dozen of the other" when compared to a PC. It is just that there is nothing special about a Mac and it grates on some people sensibilities to spend several thousand dollars to not quite duplicate something you already have.

[laguun]

If there was a paying gig that required it right this minute and the return on investment was short enough - then it isn't really that big a deal to buy a Mac system since they are pretty much "six of one half dozen of the other" when compared to a PC. It is just that there is nothing special about a Mac and it grates on some people sensibilities to spend several thousand dollars to not quite duplicate something you already have.

The problems is less if OSX or windows runs on the pcs.
Its re-qualifying dozens of employees/freelancers, its the reduced functionality of fcp, lets say compared to smoke - as well as the absence of any rgb online or 4K online on FCP.

BTW: One doesnt need an PC from Apple to run OSX - however if that is legal depends on your countries law. Here in berlin i see many, especially music and photostudios also using osx as dual-boot besides their windows on regular ~500€ quadcores.

[Mike Harrington]

BTW: One doesnt need an PC from Apple to run OSX - however if that is legal depends on your countries law. Here in berlin i see many, especially music and photostudios also using osx as dual-boot besides their windows on regular ~500€ quadcores.

that's gotta be extremely buggy.....

cool idea though, if mac unlocked there OS I guarantee there OS sales would go through the roof...
I could buy a standard case and hardware, and slap an emblem of any old fruit on the side....peach maybe:w00t:

[Clint Johnson]

that's gotta be extremely buggy.....

cool idea though, if mac unlocked there OS I guarantee there OS sales would go through the roof...
I could buy a standard case and hardware, and slap an emblem of any old fruit on the side....peach maybe:w00t:

The first reason they won't do this is that they want to force you to buy their hardware since that is where they make the widest margins. Even if the OS sales rise, their more profitable hardware sales would drop and they'd have to charge $500 of the OS to offset it.

And then they would have to add on another $300 for support when they try to cover the new users and the millions of possible hardware configurations. They don't have the experience in this that Microsoft has so they would end up being even buggier than Vista. The primary reason that the Apple operating system is more stable than Windows (there's damning with faint praise) is that it runs on a tightly limited range of hardware that Apple can test and debug to their heart's content.

If they opened it up to the unwashed masses, they would make Vista look like the paragon of stability and drown under an avalanche of user problems.

[laguun]

that's gotta be extremely buggy.....

No, its exactly the same. Same drivers, same hardware, same OS... same stability (or lack of with certain Apple pro apps).

Most customers i know in berlin, who design their PCs to use as well with OSX, are houses who have several systems.

Those typically prefer to have 5 systems with 4 cores, a 8800GT, 4GB ram for a total of <2.500€ instead (including ~450€ for the OSX licenses) instead of one single mac pro.


Especially for renderfarms, sounstudios and larger VFX work i see these systems often. Its easy math - a 2GB mac pro dual-qual is 2.500€ here, a standard osx compatible quad with 8800gt is ~400-450. So thats 20*2.4 vs 8*2.8, 5* Nvidia 8800GT vs. 1 ATI2600 - for those who use distributed computing (not all do) thats an easy choice - The higher energy costs with the quad core however have to calculated as well - over 2-3 years they do sum up.

For single-person application without networking however, i think the mac pro 8 core is a pretty good choice however.

But the central point is : "OSX" was Intel when i first used it, ~1995-6(?), it was still called NextStep back then and S. Jobs was not at Apple, and unless Apple once more would design an own architecture, macs are simply intel pcs - nothing more, nothing less.

[Thomas Mathai]

This topic does love to reoccur. Just thought I'd add that switching to a MBPro isn't simply a matter of coughing up another $2500. It's tossing and re-purchasing a dozen expensive applications and other OS-specific hardware. It's years of invested time and energy into thoroughly understanding an operating system and related software applications. It's the practical hardware and financial advantages of staying with PC, despite the current impracticality of dealing with Red footage in the PC world. I'd rather wait a few more months rather than invest a lot more money and months and months of time in reaching the same deep understanding of the OS. If it were as simple as a $2500 investment in a MBPro, I'd be there. But for me it's not.


Every time Microsoft or Apple release a major upgrade is almost like relearning the OS. Things change, new features, old ones missing, etc etc.

Back before the return of Jobs, I made it a point to get more familar with Windows and Linux just for the fact that you never know what may happen.

OS flexibility is something I like, especially when not all tools are cross platform.

[Greg M]

Ok.. if your just sitting there bored and have nothing to do.. check your email.

Jarred, I'm bored and just sitting here too.