JPEG2000 in Adobe workflow? [Archive]

Tom Lowe

06-18-2008, 11:54 AM

D'you mean for final encoding or for realtime timeline working in PPro?

I mean for real-time work in Premiere Pro CS3. I want a good, losssless codec that I can export from AE and work with in Premiere Pro.

Actually, I am able to do this. I can export a JPEG2000 MOV from AE, and drop it into my Premiere Pro timeline. If I set the quality of the JPEG2000 encoding to 100%, I cannot scrub or play the footage in my timeline in anything close to realtime. If I set the JPEG2000 compression to 95%, the file size drops by more than half! Plus it plays a better in my Premiere Pro timeline. Not in real time, but closer to real time than the 100% quality 1920x1280 JPEG2000 MOV.

I have my timeline monitor set to "Draft Quality". Is it my processor that is keeping me from working in "real time" with a 1920x1280 JGEG2000 MOV at 95% quality? I have a good video card - an 8800GTX with 756MBs onboard. I'm guessing it's my processor.

Another question: I have a Dell XPS 710. Can I simply buy a new quad-core processor for this thing? I don't want to buy a whole new computer just to get a faster CPU, but I feel like my CPU is really slowing me down in all my video work.

Radoslav Karapetkov

06-18-2008, 12:28 PM

Yeah, I'm upgrading to a quadcore too.

Well, lossless codex are heavy beasts, especially at this resolution.

Why do you need the full quality files?

You can work with decent preview-quality proxies, and when it's all done - re-link with the 100 % quality files and only render the final output.

Dj Joofa

06-18-2008, 12:46 PM

Is it possible for me to use JPEG2000 encoding with AE and Premiere Pro CS3? I never see that as an option in any of my Adobe export menus.

Quicktime provides JPEG2000 compression. Therefore nn a Mac it is available for any Adobe product. I have to verify if that is available for Windows or not.

Tom Lowe

06-18-2008, 01:55 PM

Why do you need the full quality files?

You can work with decent preview-quality proxies, and when it's all done - re-link with the 100 % quality files and only render the final output.

Well my night star timelapses are very hard to compress, so I am always afraid of losing quality anywhere in the worflow. Maybe I'm a little paranoid about it. :)

I would rather not off-line unelss I absolutely had to - like working with 6K Canon 1Ds M3 files for an IMAX DMR or something. Then I would probably have no choice but to offline. Even then, I'd probably call up Cineform and see if they could get me a 6K version of Prospect. :)

Radoslav Karapetkov

06-18-2008, 02:54 PM

Well my night star timelapses are very hard to compress, so I am always afraid of losing quality anywhere in the worflow. Maybe I'm a little paranoid about it. :)

A-ah, now I see. We all are :meh:.

They're supposed to be in some kind of lossless RAW form from the DSLR, right? (sorry, don't know much about that workflow)

If you could export them in some kind of lossless codec - lagarith or huffyuv - maybe it will work. But it's gonna be huge.

If you could export from AE into lagarith, then you'll have the full-"negative" of it.

It's identical to being uncompressed.

Then you can make a nice 1080p version of the "negative", work with it, then relink to the original and render in full final quality.

Ahm, dunno, just guessing some possible route.

BTW, you do some killer lapses.

David Taylor

06-18-2008, 03:00 PM

...I'd probably call up Cineform and see if they could get me a 6K version of Prospect. :)

Although we call it "Prospect 4K", it is actually not limited at all in spatial resolution. But we don't do much testing beyond 4K - hence the name. We have seen some rendering issues to CineForm 444 at 4K and above because of the massive frame memory required. Give it a try and let us know what you think....

Dj Joofa

06-18-2008, 03:12 PM

If you could export them in some kind of lossless codec - lagarith or huffyuv - maybe it will work. But it's gonna be huge.

Both JPEG and JPEG2000 also come in lossless flavors. So they may also be use. Don't seem to remember what exact lossless algorithm(s) are used in JPEG and JPEG200 and how do they compare to lararith and huffyuv.

Additionally, some very new research has shown that the CCT used *before* typical lossy compressions such as MPEG-2/MPEG-4/H.264/JPEG/Wavelet/etc are not the most optimal, and better compression can be had using such methods. As a corollary RGB->YCbCr are not most optimal transforms, and even KLT for CCT is not the most optimal according to some research. (NOTE: Not to be confused with the optimality of KLT in de-correlation while doing transform coding, which is different than its use in CCT.)

Tom Lowe

06-18-2008, 05:44 PM

Although we call it "Prospect 4K", it is actually not limited at all in spatial resolution. But we don't do much testing beyond 4K - hence the name. We have seen some rendering issues to CineForm 444 at 4K and above because of the massive frame memory required. Give it a try and let us know what you think....

David, I have this insane idea about shooting an IMAX timelapse picture on a Canon 1Ds Mark III (14-bit 5616x3744 RAW frames) and doing post at near full res, with maybe a 10% downsample. Would this be feasible in Premiere Pro CS3? Does Premiere Pro CS3 have a spatial resolution limit? I don't think AE does at all.

If I processed my CR2 RAW files in AE, could I export them using the Cineform codec from AE at like 5K? Could these then be dropped into Premiere Pro CS3? If this was possible, doesn't your codec bascially extract a lower res proxy from the Cineform wavelet file, allowing me to edit in real time on a very high end machine, even if the files are "5K"?

Going back to the OP for moment, can anyone tell me what the major differences are between JPEG2000 and Photo JPEG as intermediate codecs for editing in an NLE? I understand that JPEG2000 is wavelet based, but is that a big advantage?

David Taylor

06-18-2008, 06:52 PM

Your workflow is theoretically possible, but currently PPro has a 4K limit. If you want to use PPro for editorial then you would render (including DeBayer) from AE to 4K CineForm 444 files and use a 4K CF-444 workflow in PPro. This assumes the PPro memory problems don't cause the whole thing to come crashing down. But it's something you could test now.

If you don't use PPro for editorial, you could render from AE to 5K CF-444 files.

Tom Lowe

06-18-2008, 07:39 PM

Radoslav Karapetkov

06-18-2008, 09:16 PM

Both JPEG and JPEG2000 also come in lossless flavors. So they may also be use. Don't seem to remember what exact lossless algorithm(s) are used in JPEG and JPEG200 and how do they compare to lararith and huffyuv.

Additionally, some very new research has shown that the CCT used *before* typical lossy compressions such as MPEG-2/MPEG-4/H.264/JPEG/Wavelet/etc are not the most optimal, and better compression can be had using such methods. As a corollary RGB->YCbCr are not most optimal transforms, and even KLT for CCT is not the most optimal according to some research. (NOTE: Not to be confused with the optimality of KLT in de-correlation while doing transform coding, which is different than its use in CCT.)

Wow, thanks.

Actually I'm not that deep into codec technology, just wanna know what-is-what and what-does-what, in order to be able to get the most of the tools.

Dj Joofa

06-19-2008, 11:19 AM

Wow, thanks.

Actually I'm not that deep into codec technology, just wanna know what-is-what and what-does-what, in order to be able to get the most of the tools.

That is okay. Just made that comment because as of recently many people were able to decode Red's JPEG2000-similar compression, which gives me an indication that the pre-processing before transform coding is similar to the standard approach.

However, there exist some transforms that are shown to be better than standard and Red could have made use of them as they were doing "proprietary" compression. But apparently that is not the case. May be build 16 has chosen to use some of such methods.

Joe Carney

07-22-2008, 05:52 PM

Yeah, but I would need an NLE at some point. :) I don't think I could cut a 40-minute film with music in AE. Although, if I could, I could work straight off the RAW files and might not need an intermediate.

Maybe CS4 will not have a spatial resolution limit? 4K is a small bottleneck if you are hoping for an eventual DMR to 15-perf IMAX film. :)

So, in terms of RAM, I would probably need a 64-bit system, huh? 4GBs just aint gonna cut it for that kind of data.

Here is a company that makes mjpeg200 codec for directshow.
The trial is free. Their interface allows you to set quality levels.

http://www.morgan-multimedia.com/M-JPEG2000/

I don't know how good it is btw.
Here is another one from Lead technologies for 10.00 USD.
Free trial too.
http://www.leadcodecs.com/codecs/LEAD-JPEG2000.htm

Pawel Achtel

07-22-2008, 06:54 PM

David, I have this insane idea about shooting an IMAX timelapse picture on a Canon 1Ds Mark III (14-bit 5616x3744 RAW frames) and doing post at near full res, with maybe a 10% downsample. Would this be feasible in Premiere Pro CS3?

No, Adobe Premiere CS3 does not even do uncompressed 8-bit HD!:bleh:

I tried editing a 2-minute TL clip and, after downconverting all assets to 1920x1080 and to 8-bit I found that it just falls apart within seconds of even a simple cut edit. It is amazing that this multi-billion dollar company can't get this piece of overpriced crap working for over a decade. Sony Vegas is even worse with "support" to match.

If you find any half-decent editor, which can do just simple edit with cuts and disolves, let me know. Otherwise, I think, I will just write one myself :nerd:

Obin Olson

07-22-2008, 07:29 PM

time to start writing then.....

I don't understand, even an 8 core 3ghz mac I am testing can't playback a 1080p cineform 4:4:4 220megabit file without coughing...and it's only using 10% cpu!!! I don't get it.

pretty much seems like nothing works at this point for basic color and cuts only edit on an ONLINE file format

Obin Olson

07-22-2008, 07:31 PM

maybe I need to buy an AVID..oh wait, they are using DCT based compression from the 90's for a "format"

what on earth to do....i guess back to "offline" editing :)

Tom Lowe

07-22-2008, 09:40 PM

Avid is a dinosaur.

chocblu

07-22-2008, 11:23 PM

In regards to the the 220mbit playback, on the 8 core mac. what disk system are you using? Unless your using a RAID that can shovel that amount of info to your CPU, of course the CPU will just tick over at 10%. On top of that just because you have 8 cores doesnt mean that they will all be used. There is a lot of software developement that needs to happen to even start using that many cores, and editing suites are very large cruise liners that take a while to get going in the right direction. The concurrency issues that come up when you start to use more than one core is huge. and NOBODY in the software industry has a magic bullet for this. A lot of poeple are scrabbling for this but havent quite got there yet. Do a google on the dinning philosophers problem and you might get an insight into the issues.

All the three top companies are in the same boat, and as a software engineer, they are totally justified on not being up there with that just yet. After all, CPU utilisation isnt the problem, and has never been, the first think your going to run out of is memory bandwidth, from your HDD to your Ram to your CPU.

Hope this Helps!

Cheers

Mark

David Taylor

07-23-2008, 07:00 AM

Obin, I think you've already downloaded our latest Mac release. I'm curious if your performance took a move upwards on the CF-444 clip from what you describe in your earlier post. Here is some background:

We're waiting on our 8-core machine at CineForm. Our current machine is an older Dual Dual.

During performance testing on Mac when OUTSIDE both QT Player and FCP, we have almost the same performance on Mac as we do on Windows. As you probably know we're highly threaded, and can keep the Windows CPU meters at 100% much of the time - even on an 8-core Windows box. On Mac outside QT Player or FCP, when we call the codec directly, we get similar performance. However, when using QT Player and FCP, performance falls off dramatically. QT Player won't let us use the multi-resolution playback characteristics of Wavelets. "Odd" calls that kill threading efficiency seem to happen from FCP. The result of both is to significantly lower performance for an end user.

When the CPU meters get to 50% FCP seems to unilaterally decide to drop to 12 fps for playback (what's that about?) to keep the meters below 50%, then it might further drop to 6 fps. If that same characteristic holds, then you should get more performance on an 8-core machine, although FCP will still probably throttle you at 50%.

We've been able to improve things a bit by reducing (but not eliminating) the "odd" codec calls FCP makes, which improves performance somewhat, but we can't seem to workaround this 50% threshold.

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 07:24 AM

Well the thing is, for us, one dropped frame and we are screwed as we always edit to single frames for all projects all the time. Try cutting a trailer with fast cuts and dropped frames? try cutting a dialog scene with audio that is NEVER in sync without going back 5 sec on the timeline to hit "play" so your software can catch up(this on the windows box) all I ask of all the frames all the time with sync audio that never fails.

at this point it seems more and more that this is out of the question and we really need to start offline online projects, FCP does not work, Premiere does not work, premiere with cineform engine is worse then all the above.

hmm....I did find an almost solution today though, RAID 0 local SATA with NON cineform DESKTOP project using 1080p cineform files in PROXY playback mode in premiere works pretty well...best yet, and far better then cineform engine inside premiere.

problem with that is no HDSDI, but I guess that could come with the "online" just make a cineform project and then "online" with HDSDI....oh, but wait!! premiere color tools are for toddlers in terms of bit depth support and high precision in the color controls, NOTHING even CLOSE to what good old REDCINE can achive in terms of quality so back to square one ...again!

starting to blow around here.

we need tools that work, for less then a nice family car. Oh wait, I could get a scratch I guess...and sit wondering how I can get clients to pay for it? :) but wait, I bet scratch does not fully support deep pixel from cineform, using the 8bit output from the files as so many others that "don't support cineform" oh well.....

I guess I will keep doing what I do best. looking for a solution.

:):)

Did someone say FCP? hope not...Reference files from red support only? don't think that is going to fly when we are in and out of compositors all the time and need real high quality files to work from that will not degrade across apps

back to cineform, C"mon guys, you have always had the "right idea" now lets get some guys on your team to make this shit ROCK SOLID - ASAP - I have been waiting for 4 years with you!!! you almost have it. so close.

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 07:36 AM

So Tom if avid is a "dinosaur" and FCP/premiere blow...whats left?

I used to think I just needed to throw money at something, now I am starting to think I just can't buy what I need....

David Newman

07-23-2008, 08:08 AM

D.T. You aren't quite correct about the way FCP degrades, it is not quite that bad, though your post certain has the feel for the frustration FCP has for third party developers, which I voice to you daily.

To outsiders we have beefed up our Mac engineering in the last month, finally making big progress on this platform. Add will are adding more engineering, looking for talented media centric engineers.

Obin, you know you can always call us if you having issues. We know there is no perfect solution, but will constructive feedback you know can influence the product (as you have many times in the past.) Audio sync is no issue when the AJA drivers are setup correctly, every video frame is hardware synced to every audio packet. If your having issues there talk to Jake in support.

P.S. The current Prospect 4K public beta adds the 3D LUT engine to 444 sources, that will safe you huge amounts of time in color correction, give you more RT choices for your color correction.

laguun

07-23-2008, 08:17 AM

No, Adobe Premiere CS3 does not even do uncompressed 8-bit HD!:bleh:

Wrong.
Adobe CS3 handles 10bit RGB, YUV and more. In SD, HD; 2K and 4K.
Thousands of systems do that daily - i am writing of one of them while its munching through hours of uncompressed 10bit right now in the background.

I tried editing a 2-minute TL clip and, after downconverting all assets to 1920x1080 and to 8-bit I found that it just falls apart within seconds of even a simple cut edit. It is amazing that this multi-billion dollar company can't get this piece of overpriced crap working for over a decade. Sony Vegas is even worse with "support" to match.

Pawel, with all due respect - your conclusion is wrong.
An operator error doesnt mean that the machine is faulty.

You need support and consulting to setup your machine (probably only the codecs) correctly.

If you want some powerful HD-SDI i/o including 2K/1080 i/o with 10 and more bits in RGB and YUV, via SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 344M, SMPTE 292M,
SMPTE 372M and SMPTE 424M 3G-SDI, then aja (www.aja.com) and blackmagic design (www.decklink.com) are pretty usual expansion. We connect HDCAM (SR) via their product - and its working excellent in 10 bits since years.

If you find any half-decent editor, which can do just simple edit with cuts and disolves, let me know. Otherwise, I think, I will just write one myself :nerd:
Adobe CS3, Avid MC, Apple FCP.
The only one of these who can handle 4K@10/16bit RGB is Adobe Premiere CS3.

laguun

07-23-2008, 08:18 AM

Avid is a dinosaur.
Sometimes a T-Rex is slightly more powerful than a braindamaged pink poodle in its puberty....
:)

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 08:40 AM

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 08:58 AM

understood, however your looking at uncompressed, that will work all day long with fast disks, what I am talking about is a compressed format like cineform

Wrong.
Adobe CS3 handles 10bit RGB, YUV and more. In SD, HD; 2K and 4K.
Thousands of systems do that daily - i am writing of one of them while its munching through hours of uncompressed 10bit right now in the background.

Pawel, with all due respect - your conclusion is wrong.
An operator error doesnt mean that the machine is faulty.

You need support and consulting to setup your machine (probably only the codecs) correctly.

If you want some powerful HD-SDI i/o including 2K/1080 i/o with 10 and more bits in RGB and YUV, via SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 344M, SMPTE 292M,
SMPTE 372M and SMPTE 424M 3G-SDI, then aja (www.aja.com) and blackmagic design (www.decklink.com) are pretty usual expansion. We connect HDCAM (SR) via their product - and its working excellent in 10 bits since years.

Adobe CS3, Avid MC, Apple FCP.
The only one of these who can handle 4K@10/16bit RGB is Adobe Premiere CS3.

David Newman

07-23-2008, 09:41 AM

audio sync is a not an issue with HDSDI, but with premiere on our other edit system its way out, so we are not using the cineform engine..to be honest its far far more stable and way better interface response. I think if I could get premiere to playback in HIGH QUALITY instead of PROXY in the monitor window this is the way to fly, why can't premiere playback at full res when windows media player can David?

3ghz 4core system....do I need 8cores to get premiere to playback in realtime a single video stream of 220mbt cineform 1080p with no color correct on it?

You can see why we replace the Premiere engine, it is simply much slower than our own. We can look into why your audio is out of sync without HDSDI, but that is a question for support. As for stability, report issue to support, if there are crashes we will fix them. Report to support not here as it is not Red related.

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 10:59 AM

what I was saying is Premiere WITHOUT cineform is far more stable and responsive. Thats why we are NOT using your engine on our B edit machine right now.

I would suggest work on your codec and let Premiere handle the other parts, it seems to work well except for the fact that it will only playback in proxy mode on the Monitor of the timeline....

John Tissavary

07-23-2008, 01:50 PM

what I was saying is Premiere WITHOUT cineform is far more stable and responsive. Thats why we are NOT using your engine on our B edit machine right now.

That is very contrary to my experience cutting several projects on CS3 using Cineform as the primary codec. I did not have any problems there, other than Premiere's lousy memory handling which is not something Cineform can solve. I've cut at 1080p, 2k full-app, and 4k 2:1. I've had all cineform timelines, mixed timelines, etc...

Maybe the problem lies in some hardware incompatibility or os issue? Have you gone through a trouble-ticket cycle with cineform?

regards,

jt

Obin Olson

07-23-2008, 02:23 PM

you don't get 2 sec delay when hitting space bar to start timeline playback?

John Tissavary

07-23-2008, 04:46 PM

Yes, I do. I don't consider that a problem as I usually wind back 5 seconds or more.

jt

David Newman

07-23-2008, 04:59 PM

2 seconds, only takes 0.5 seconds here, just enough to prime the RT video pipeline to prevent frame drops. Need to see why some PCs take longer. In the meantime, please second question like this to support.

Pawel Achtel

07-23-2008, 05:24 PM

The only one of these who can handle 4K@10/16bit RGB is Adobe Premiere CS3.

OK, why don't you spend 3 minutes and:
1. Get five sequences of 16-bit TIFFs, say ~1000 frames each
2. Add them to the time line, trim, scrub and assemble precisely. Perhaps a couple of cross disolves.

Adobe CS3 will run of memory within seconds and crash. This is despite 4Gb RAM (maximum for XP) and only ~1Gb taken by Premiere process.

I am not taking even real-time performance here, it just doesn't allow you to do a simple edit.

If you want some powerful HD-SDI i/o including 2K/1080 i/o with 10 and more bits in RGB and YUV, via SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 344M, SMPTE 292M,
SMPTE 372M and SMPTE 424M 3G-SDI, then aja (www.aja.com) and blackmagic design (www.decklink.com) are pretty usual expansion.

So, tell me something I don't know (I do have Blackmagic Extreme installed, BTW)

Obin Olson

07-24-2008, 04:32 PM

Pawel, your correct. Seems to be a consumer app, sold as professional. Not sure why.
Features are good, but the program seems to be very unstable for professional work.

Christopher Grant Harvey

07-24-2008, 05:02 PM

Please guys file a feature request for better memory management or a bug report to say how crap their current memory handling is in Premiere and to please fix it.

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

Pawel Achtel

07-24-2008, 05:18 PM

laguun

07-24-2008, 05:24 PM

OK, why don't you spend 3 minutes and:

Our 2K suites are usually booked on an daily basis.

1. Get five sequences of 16-bit TIFFs, say ~1000 frames each

lets enhance that to 10.000 sequences.

2. Add them to the time line, trim, scrub and assemble precisely. Perhaps a couple of cross disolves.

working *perfectly* here on adobe, matrox, decklink....

Adobe CS3 will run of memory within seconds and crash.
Fix your computer system might be the only reasonalble answer here.
If you dont understand how - get help.

This is despite 4Gb RAM (maximum for XP) and only ~1Gb taken by Premiere process.

XP64 limits you to 128Tb.

I am not taking even real-time performance here, it just doesn't allow you to do a simple edit.

we usually offer clients solutions, not complanits.
Adobe works *perfectly* here

So, tell me something I don't know (I do have Blackmagic Extreme installed, BTW)
Your postpro approach is defective.
You shouldnt offer it until you learn to understand it.
Your incompetence might mislead red users to associate your lack of of understanding with an perfectly working workstation .

Christopher Grant Harvey

07-24-2008, 05:39 PM

Corporate bureaucracy does not work this way.

Well at least they might someday catch the hint that Premiere "Pro" needs some more work. :wink:

Hop Litzwire

07-24-2008, 09:14 PM

I just came here to look for some info - don't post much, but I have to chime in here and side with Laguun on this one. Now, I must admit I'm not doing 4K editing in my suite outside of organizing shots in RedCine, but I have Matrox hardware based around the CS3 suite, and having delivered HD shows to either ESPN, Versus, or Discovery on a weekly basis for the last year with my systems, and often to all of them in the same week, I would consider the package able to handle "pro" work very nicely. In fact, a few FCP and Avid houses in my town (and one out-of-town) are coming to ME to finish their work, output Flash files, and output DVDs for them. A couple of those Avid shops also come to me to do their audio post for them, and I use the Premier/Audition combo to do it with well-received results. Now, I don't care about any corp like Adobe's or Apple's status, and I'm sure they don't care about me personally, so I'm not touting one over the other, but I can simply vouch for the fact that some people are indeed doing "pro" work with the Adobe package and Premier. As far as RED is concerned, I haven't had to deliver any 4K masters lately, but I do output 4K files from REDCine into a 1080/23.98 file my editing system understands, and it's going quite nicely for HD broadcast work. Some clips from a test shoot I did for a hotel promo, wherein I output the 4K clips from RedCine, added the 1080 clips to my timeline, added some diffusion using the After Effects/Premier dynamic link, and output the test shots as a QT, can be found here: www.litzwire.net/shares/hawkspromotest6.mov (save to your HD for best performance). I have by no means mastered the camera yet, and the shots look a touch soft in that QT, but on my HD production monitor they are as sharp as I would want them to be for HD work, and proof that there is a workflow for my line of work. Anyhoo - I personally think Premier works great with the right hardware - it's been stellar for me on my broadcast work, and it's working well so far for my RED work, although I do plan on building a system based around Cineform when those guys have a workflow put together for the RED that's better than what I'm doing. I'll use my Matrox systems strictly for TV work and the Cineform/AJA system for RED work...until a "pro" app comes along that I like ;).

Pawel Achtel

07-25-2008, 02:45 AM

Fix your computer system might [sic.] be the only reasonalble [sic.] answer here.
If you dont [sic.] understand how - get help.

Actually, no! It is not reasonable answer. I have 25 years of hands-on experience as a software developer (most low-level languages) and, sometimes provide help to clients like Microsoft to get their software working.

XP64 limits you to 128Tb.

So, does that mean that Adobe Premiere CS3 does not work well on XP 32?

we usually offer clients solutions, not complanits.

How is it relevant what you offer to your clients and why should I care? My complaint was relating to Premiere CS3, not to you or your clients.

Your postpro [sic.] approach is defective.
You shouldnt [sic.] offer it until you learn to understand it.

Offer what? I don't offer anything. Defective approach? What is that supposed to mean?

Your incompetence might [sic.] mislead [sic.] red [sic.] users to associate your lack of of [sic.] understanding with [sic.] an [sic.] perfectly working [sic.] workstation.
Can I suggest that you refrain from personal remarks?

Pawel Achtel

07-25-2008, 03:42 AM

Well at least they might someday catch the hint that Premiere "Pro" needs some more work. :wink:

Well, yes they do, but the way most corporate organisations interpret "more work" is as in "more features", not "more reliable".

Mike Harrington

07-29-2008, 08:59 AM

i use vista 64 with 8 gigs....
no memory problems for PPro...

John Tissavary

07-29-2008, 02:17 PM

I frequently use Premiere CS3 to cut longform material, and I don't find less riddled with problems and bugs than FCP (different problems, yes, but in many cases easier to work around).

Typically, in features, timelines are no longer than 20 minutes. The average feature film would have five 20 minute long 'reels' or timelines. That makes it manageable from a creative, managereal, and technical standpoint for Avid, FCP, and Premiere.

Admittedly, Premiere has near zero traction with Hollywood editors, but in my experience they are the group least likely to change apps. It takes a colossal effort to get an Avid guy to learn FCP, or vice versa, forget about Premiere. I think Adobe is well entrenched in the industrial market, though, where longform HD (only 6% less data than 2k) is quite common.

I use Premiere CS3 to cut multiple layers with fx and other stuff in 20 minute chunks at HD & 2k. I don't run a 64bit OS so I have problems with 4k, but I finish in Scratch, and would not chose to finish a project in a dedicated NLE.

Pawel Achtel

07-29-2008, 03:50 PM

i use vista 64 with 8 gigs....
no memory problems for PPro...

That's interesting because emulated applications running on Windows 64 layer are not able to address any more memory than they could on a 32-bit system. This means that, unless Premiere CS3 is a 64-bit application it will not benefit from 64-bit addressing space.

This is confirmed by Adobe (ref: http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/faq/ ):

Although Adobe Premiere Pro is not a native 64-bit application, it can run on 64-bit versions of Windows Vista. In this configuration, you can install up to 64GB of RAM in the system, and Adobe Premiere Pro can address up to 3GB of this RAM

Are you sure you can online uncompressed 2k or 4k TIFF sequences for a total duration longer than 1 minute?

When I scrub a few clips (image sequences) of, say 1000 frames each, on the editing line, the memory usage of the Premiere process goes to about 2Gb and Premiere displays "Out of memory warning" after which it either hangs or stops performing any further actions. It does, however handle shorter clips, say 10 seconds in duration.

Mike Harrington

07-29-2008, 10:17 PM

i have been using cineform 4k so I couldn't honestly comment on running a 4k tiff sequence

as far as the memory is concerned, in the cineform thread The question was raised and David Newman stated that 64 bit os allows premiere to see 4gb rather than the 2 or 3 of a 32 bit app.

now i am not qualified to say which is right, but I would probably believe david first since he knows PPro's guts inside out.

either way on xp 32 the maximum memory that can be supported TOTAL is 4gb. So if PPro is eating 3gb and the XP at least .5gb...your almost at the limit.

Now with me running 64 bit, I have 3(or 4 GB depending who you believe)
for PPro, vista being a hog uses probably a gig....so i still have 3 or 4 gigs left.

Running 4k tiff sequences sounds scary to me...