Basic Audio Problems

[RMTOP]

We have our Red #941 for two weeks now and have had great results with our picture tests. We’ve had audio problems from the beginning and Red took back the camera to swap out the audio board once already. Some problems still remain. We are using Sony Professional MDR-7504 earphones plugged directly into the camera. Even at minus 10 dB without the microphone plugged in we are getting a distinct medium pitched tone in the earpiece. We recorded some footage without a microphone plugged in and that tone is being recorded as well we think. We can hear it on playback. Could be the tone is in the earpiece and not recorded. We are using a Sennheiser ME 66 Shotgun mic (K6 module) plugged directly into the mini XLR jacks on the camera and have to crank up any of the four channels up to the max of 54dB to have audio signal at all and that's with the mic about two inches away from the sound source. We’ve double-checked to make sure the inputs are set to microphone and not line. We've checked and changed the battery a few times to avoid the use of phantom power from the Red. Do you think we need some type of pre-amp between the audio inputs on the camera and the microphone itself? We're planning an extensive first shoot with the camera and are doing a lot of testing before we attempt to start production. I know most of the posting for audio are hot on the idea of double system sound and video but on occasion it is very convenient to have audio and picture recorded together. Any ideas and help will be greatly appreciated.

[MattGahan]

I'm not sure I can help, but I can tell you that I plugged in an ME66 with the K6 module directly to a RED and did not experience the low levels problem you mention. We also used phantom power from the mic and not the camera.

[Mark B.]

Not to derail this thread too far, but having used the ME66 what are your opinions on it?

[RMTOP]

I've always found the Sennheiser ME66 to be a reasonably priced very useful workhorse . Using the K6 powering module with battery power we purchased the various microphones used with it (ME62-omni-directional, ME64-cardoid, ME65-super-cardiod,ME66-short shotgun, ME67-long shotgun). That’s a nice little arsenal of possibilities to have in your audio tool kit. In it’s price range I found the sound quality excellent .

[Philippe Vandendriessche]

Double system has always worked very well and modern recorders (Aaton Cantar, Zaxcom Deva, Sound Devices...) can offer you 8 or more tracks of high quality audio with routing, monitoring, filters, precision measurments, phantom power and timecode. Audio is a matter for specialists!

[Ty Ford]

Hello RMTOP

I mentioned before, the 66 is not a really great sounding mic. Sennheiser made it to sell to a specific market segment. You see it a lot in schools with film/video studies courses because it's relatively inexpensive. People learning from those schools use the mic and think it's a standard.

The Sennheiser 416 is a noticeable improvement. The Sennheiser MKH 60 is as well; newer than the 416, quieter too, with not as aggressive a presence peak so it has a more natural sound.

The Schoeps CMIT shotgun and Sanken CS-3e also deserve mention. The CS-3e isn't really an interference tube mic like the others because the tube is packed with additional capsules to create the pattern. The main capsule is at the tip of the mic, not at the base of the interference tube as with other conventional shotguns.

Anyway. Do some recording with the camera and mic. Play the files back in a GOOD post suite with GOOD monitors and a low ambient noise level to see if the noise is just leaking from the camera electronics into the headphone circuit or actually getting to the tracks.

Crappy headphone audio from cameras is not that unusual, but it sure makes it difficult for the audio person to do his/her job.

As high falutin' as the Red camera purports to be, they really screwed the pooch on the audio. -10 consumer level inputs? Incorrect pin outs on the jacks? It's not like the standards are a secret. They just didn't do some very basic homework. It's like buying an Acura and finding out they left out the brakes.

I've offered to help on more than one occasion, but those offers have fallen on deaf ears.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Meryem Ersoz]

I hope that, now that the image is so vastly improved with Build 16, RED will focus their efforts on improving audio. Build 16 already improves the audio substantially, even though it is still not quite ready for prime time. I think that many people suspect that they made some poor hardware choices and that the amount of audio improvement possible may be limited in RED ONE. Time will tell, and RED isn't saying...

Audio is definitely lagging image, and their top priority has been image -- I think audio was enabled in Build 12, so they've had 16 firmware upgrades to perfect image and only 4 audio upgrades. Let's give them a chance to play catch up with audio before drawing fixed conclusions.

When RED dropped HD as an output standard and built a digital cinema camera, I think they built out the audio on the assumption that double system recording would be the de facto standard, so they did not put a lot of effort into building in world-class audio to match the world class image. Assuming, instead, that world-class audio could only be achieved using double system...

But the outcry from users demanding good single system recording is causing them to re-think that assumption. RED is pretty aware that they dropped the ball on audio with RED ONE and are making the proper adjustments on SCARLET and EPIC.

The MKH60 has better off-axis rejection and a richer, darker coloration, but I think you can get very good sound from the ME66. MKH60 is a better dialogue mic, but I often prefer the ME66 in documentary applications where some ambient sound in the sound mix is a good thing. The ME66 has been used successfully on many indie films, but you won't regret a mic upgrade if you are trying to achieve cleaner, darker professional sound. Certainly the ME66 is adequate though and friendly to RED ONE, in its current incarnation, where the phantom power is a bit sketchy still.

[Ty Ford]

Thanks for the perspective Meryem.

For any Red folks reading who may have missed my suggestions in previous strings; 24-bit, please.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Andrew M.]

Thanks for the perspective Meryem.

For any Red folks reading who may have missed my suggestions in previous strings; 24-bit, please.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I think we already have 24 bit audio?
It is how it shows up on Audition and Sonar after extracting from QT proxy.

and phantom power cable.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=222946&postcount=6

[Ty Ford]

Maybe that's part of the rebuild, dunno.

In Protools, when you start a session, you determine the bit rate there. Any files you bring in are converted to the session bit-rate.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Greg M]

Are you using the Red Audio cable?
be sure to use the newer Red cable with any audio recorded directly to the Red.

"We recorded some footage without a microphone plugged in and that tone is being recorded as well we think."

What do you mean "we think"...how are you playing back your audio??

[Rob Gardner]

Ty, do you have access to a Red camera? I'm in Baltimore and expect to get mine in August. I have been concerned about the assumption that double-system sound will be required.
Thanks
Rob Gardner

[Andrew M.]

Are you using the Red Audio cable?
be sure to use the newer Red cable with any audio recorded directly to the Red.

"We recorded some footage without a microphone plugged in and that tone is being recorded as well we think."

What do you mean "we think"...how are you playing back your audio??

I take it from the QT proxy.
It shows 32 bytes audio that doesn't make sense anyway "bytes" instead "bits"
but someone mentioned here that it is 24 bits.
I don't know what A/D converter on RED audio is.

When you open the proxy this is what you see:

[Greg M]

I take it from the QT proxy.
It shows 32 bytes audio that doesn't make sense anyway "bytes" instead "bits"
but someone mentioned here that it is 24 bits.
I don't know what A/D converter on RED audio is.

When you open the proxy this is what you see:

What I meant was;
1. when you originally recorded the audio, did you use the Red audio cable from mini XLR to XLR?

2. you stated "we think" we recoded tone in our audio, what do you mean "we think"? Did you listen to it on a good sound system?

[Andrew M.]

What I meant was;
1. when you originally recorded the audio, did you use the Red audio cable from mini XLR to XLR?

2. you stated "we think" we recoded tone in our audio, what do you mean "we think"? Did you listen to it on a good sound system?

I think we record 24 bit (not tone in our audio)
I use XLR to xlr RED cable, YES.
But the question is the decoder in the RED camera, is it 24 bit per each 48KHz sample or what?

[James Brundige]

Double system has always worked very well and modern recorders (Aaton Cantar, Zaxcom Deva, Sound Devices...) can offer you 8 or more tracks of high quality audio with routing, monitoring, filters, precision measurments, phantom power and timecode. Audio is a matter for specialists!

It's great to have a sound department, but recording digital audio onto the camera should work. Sync sound should travel with the picture. Double system recording and workflow are only needed with multi track recording. I have $2000 cameras that record digital audio better than the Red. Hopefully this pathetic mis-match (world class picture with bad sound) will be fixed, though it will clearly require a hardware upgrade.

[Stuart English]

I have $2000 cameras that record digital audio better than the Red. Hopefully this pathetic mis-match (world class picture with bad sound) will be fixed, though it will clearly require a hardware upgrade.

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

[Ty Ford]

Ty, do you have access to a Red camera? I'm in Baltimore and expect to get mine in August. I have been concerned about the assumption that double-system sound will be required.
Thanks
Rob Gardner

Hi Rob,

I don't, but August will be here soon. I'd like the chance to compare audio aspects between your camera and my Sound Devices 744T. Put this question to rest.

I also have a SD 788T here right now for a review I'm writing if you'd like a look at that.

Regards,

Ty Ford
410.296.2868

[Steve Sherrick]

I have a Red and a SD 744T. I can conduct a test for you guys, just give me the parameters and I will try to accommodate.

[Sunshine Whitton]

I get the tone sound on channel 1 and 2 with no mic plugged in at all. Plugging in the supplied Red mini to xlr doesn't change this. It is really evident if I turn up past the default 32dB. But it's definitely there when I play back the .mov files at 32dB. It's a problem for me. Is there a fix?



Are you using the Red Audio cable?
be sure to use the newer Red cable with any audio recorded directly to the Red.

"We recorded some footage without a microphone plugged in and that tone is being recorded as well we think."

What do you mean "we think"...how are you playing back your audio??

[Craig Bowman]

I get the tone sound on channel 1 and 2 with no mic plugged in at all. Plugging in the supplied Red mini to xlr doesn't change this. It is really evident if I turn up past the default 32dB. But it's definitely there when I play back the .mov files at 32dB. It's a problem for me. Is there a fix?

Congratulations. You have fried your audio board. How can you tell? It puts out the exact tone you're hearing. How is this accomplished? If you plug in the supplied Red mini to xlr and its not the new cable with the built in resistors and the camera has power to it, its almost certain you'll toast the channels that are enabled.

[Ty Ford]

I have a Red and a SD 744T. I can conduct a test for you guys, just give me the parameters and I will try to accommodate.

Thanks Steve, Rob may feel differently because it may have bearing on his decision to buy, but that would be like you taste-testing ice cream for me. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Steve Sherrick]

Thanks Steve, Rob may feel differently because it may have bearing on his decision to buy, but that would be like you taste-testing ice cream for me. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford
I like mint chocolate chip ice cream. You?

I hear what you're saying. I was thinking of some basic tests that would compare the preamps noise levels. But even in my best efforts it would be tough to make a definitive analysis for people because there will be variables that can come into play.

[Greg M]

Congratulations. You have fried your audio board. How can you tell? It puts out the exact tone you're hearing. How is this accomplished? If you plug in the supplied Red mini to xlr and its not the new cable with the built in resistors and the camera has power to it, its almost certain you'll toast the channels that are enabled.


What do you base this on?

I used the old cable for 6 months, and I'm not eating toast for breakfast.

[James Brundige]

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

It appears to be a -10db input with a resistor in the cable, with mic levels and phantom power unusable. A hack solution, much inferior to the cameras you mention, not to mention most prosumer cameras on the market. I run a Sony EX1 as a audio system for the Red, which creates quite a silly workflow. Feature companies are used to two system setup, but broadcast producers are used to sync sound attached to picture, and for good reasons. There is no reason the Red can not achieve this - it's far easier than the image software and hardware they have created.

For these reasons, I am using the red only for B-roll on my documentary projects for TV. I would like to be able to use it for the whole show, but the audio workflow is too clumsy. The camera clearly comes from a film, double system, background, but if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, this needs to change. I gather it's being worked on, and assume the results will be as good as the rest of the camera.

Please give us +4 quality preamps with real XLR inputs. It seems the Epic is headed that way. Hopefully the Red One can be retrofitted.

[Steve Sherrick]

It appears to be a -10db input with a resistor in the cable, with mic levels and phantom power unusable. A hack solution, much inferior to the cameras you mention, not to mention most prosumer cameras on the market. I run a Sony EX1 as a audio system for the Red, which creates quite a silly workflow. Feature companies are used to two system setup, but broadcast producers are used to sync sound attached to picture, and for good reasons. There is no reason the Red can not achieve this - it's far easier than the image software and hardware they have created.

For these reasons, I am using the red only for B-roll on my documentary projects for TV. I would like to be able to use it for the whole show, but the audio workflow is too clumsy. The camera clearly comes from a film, double system, background, but if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, this needs to change. I gather it's being worked on, and assume the results will be as good as the rest of the camera.

Please give us +4 quality preamps with real XLR inputs. It seems the Epic is headed that way. Hopefully the Red One can be retrofitted.

I agree that audio is not on par with the amazing visuals the camera produces, but I am very surprised by your current workflow with audio and Red. Instead of the EX1, you could simply have a small 2 channel mic preamp attached to the camera or tripod or belt and be running line level directly to the camera. Have you found a reason not to run line level in? Is it possible your camera has a problem? Just curious more than anything else. Not trying to knock your ways, as you are clearly an experienced shooter. It's time to really put my SD 744 to the test with the Red. I've just been waiting for some cables to come in. They should be here today or tomorrow.

[James Brundige]

I agree that audio is not on par with the amazing visuals the camera produces, but I am very surprised by your current workflow with audio and Red. Instead of the EX1, you could simply have a small 2 channel mic preamp attached to the camera or tripod or belt and be running line level directly to the camera. Have you found a reason not to run line level in? Is it possible your camera has a problem? Just curious more than anything else. Not trying to knock your ways, as you are clearly an experienced shooter. It's time to really put my SD 744 to the test with the Red. I've just been waiting for some cables to come in. They should be here today or tomorrow.

I have a nice Wendt mixer which can power mics and feed a line out, but the post workflow is the barrier for me. As I understand it, you must edit with proxies and match back the picture elements later - Neither Red Alert or Red Cine supports audio.

For commercials or film projects with real crews and post budgets, the double system is normal. For long form docs, it's a pain in the ...

Make sure you use the Red cables to get into the camera - they are unique, with a resistor built in. Which is part of my reluctance to trust the audio chain - I've used a +4 balanced XLR for so long. That's one thing Red did not have to re-invent, but maybe I'm just an old fogey. The fact that the camera can not do the simple task of running a pro level mic makes me suspicious of the audio section in general. I started in the biz as a sound guy, so maybe my standards are too critical.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

I understand that RED folks are going to react defensively to criticism of their flagship product. But I don't think it's wise to fall back on stuff like "line level" performance comparisons when there are still MAJOR design/manufacturing flaws in the audio.

Small film crews and those shooting docs, ENG, and solo freelance work rely every single day on the mic pres in professional cameras as well as on in-camera limiters. You would be hard pressed to find a single motion picture camera today that acquires images electronically and sells for over $5K that DOESN'T include reasonable implementations of these features plus phantom power. So unless and until RED updates the audio section of RED ONE to provide quality mic preamps that supply phantom power and adequate gain without high noise levels, hums, buzzes, or other anomalies; until RED is compatible with professional industry standards (e.g., standard XLR pin cabling, +4 line input levels, etc.); and until RED provides a method to adjust audio input levels on the fly (i.e., dedicated knob or buttons) without having to access menus, its audio section will remain painfully substandard and it would not pass without objection in the trade as a professional video camera.

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100. And sooner or later (hopefully sooner), the RED engineers are going to have to acknowledge their audio mis-steps and correct them.

[James Brundige]

Small film crews and those shooting docs, ENG, and solo freelance work rely every single day on the mic pres in professional cameras as well as on in-camera limiters. You would be hard pressed to find a single motion picture camera today that acquires images electronically and sells for over $5K that DOESN'T include reasonable implementations of these features plus phantom power. So unless and until RED updates the audio section of RED ONE to provide quality mic preamps that supply phantom power and adequate gain without high noise levels, hums, buzzes, or other anomalies; until RED is compatible with professional industry standards (e.g., standard XLR pin cabling, +4 line input levels, etc.); and until RED provides a method to adjust audio input levels on the fly (i.e., dedicated knob or buttons) without having to access menus, its audio section will remain painfully substandard and it would not pass without objection in the trade as a professional video camera.

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100. And sooner or later (hopefully sooner), the RED engineers are going to have to acknowledge their audio mis-steps and correct them.

Dead On - And don't make us go through menus to adjust gain. Knobs and pots are not expensive. Maybe this will become one of those third party solutions.

I think there is a disconnect between a film (in which sound is a very separate function) and broadcast approach. But broadcast is a much larger segment of the industry, so Red would do well to get the audio section on par with even the most basic video camera.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Dead On - And don't make us go through menus to adjust gain. Knobs and pots are not expensive. Maybe this will become one of those third party solutions.

I think there is a disconnect between a film (in which sound is a very separate function) and broadcast approach. But broadcast is a much larger segment of the industry, so Red would do well to get the audio section on par with even the most basic video camera.

James, I just noticed your signature and visited your website. Just giving a shout out to a fellow Berklee College alum. I graduated in 1984. Studied composition, arranging, and electronic music.:biggrin:

[Stuart English]

I love this product and company and remain optimistic that RED ONE's audio will one day be worthy of its picture, but I have no intentions of completing my purchase of the camera until it at least has equivalent audio performance to my DVX-100.

There is always room for improvement in any design, and yes there are different ways to do things, but just to keep the facts straight.

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.

- With Build 16 you CAN increase and decrease audio levels without going to the menus.

- A standalone 24 bit audio recorder will outperform an internal RED-ONE recording, thats true for every professional video camera.

if you are prepared to work with the audio section it'll give you really nice results. Fight against it and it won't.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.


I was very impressed with a few of the line-level fed recordings I heard, and that's terrific.

That still has nothing to do with the absolute necessity of decent quality mic pres and clean phantom power, since both are essential and expected by the vast majority of professionals shooting solo, with small crews, or who work extensively in docs or other realms where budget and/or circumstances don't support extrinsic audio equipment and dedicated audio personnel.


- A standalone 24 bit audio recorder will outperform an internal RED-ONE recording, thats true for every professional video camera.


That's certainly not the standard to which I'm holding the RED ONE, nor have I ever read anyone here advocating such a standard. Again, I'd like it to have at least as much industry standardization/compatibility and performance as my DVX gives me. That's not setting the bar very high.



if you are prepared to work with the audio section it'll give you really nice results. Fight against it and it won't.

If that means continued patience and TEMPORARY workarounds as RED engineers work through higher priority issues before fixing the audio problems, that's fine. I'm very comfortable with that.

If it's code for "we know we dropped the ball on the audio and in order to get decent sound you will have to supply external phantom power and microphone preamplification and you'll have to get used to non-professional level inputs and mis-wired xlr jacks, then I think that absolutely sucks, and I can tell you it will change my personal plans for buying the camera. In my value system, the audio in an "audio/visual" presentation is at least as important as the video. And any camera meant to attract people from a professional video background (as the RED was clearly conceived to do, no matter who else it also targeted) has to provide at least the basic tools taken for granted by those users in that style of shooting. Those tools include properly-wired XLR jacks (even if requiring mini-standard adapters), clean phantom power, and reasonably quiet mic preamps.


- With Build 16 you CAN increase and decrease audio levels without going to the menus.



That's terrific news! Can you elaborate on how this was implemented (user-assignable button, etc.)?

I missed that announcement, obviously, but it's the kind of improvement based on user feedback that fortifies my faith that, eventually, RED will do the right thing and upgrade/change/correct its hardware, as needed, to make the audio section worthy of inclusion on a camera that takes such stupendous pictures.:wink:

[James Brundige]

James, I just noticed your signature and visited your website. Just giving a shout out to a fellow Berklee College alum. I graduated in 1984. Studied composition, arranging, and electronic music.:biggrin:

I guess that's why we're the ones here asking for a pro audio input section.

[James Brundige]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.
.

Outperfom? By what standards? Most cameras I have ever used (since National Geographic abandoned film in 1998 and I sold my Arri SR) have a better audio input section than the Red One.

Red will float or not depending on it's how it actually performs. I love the company, and their ethic, and the images I see coming out of my camera. I am rooting for its success, and have invested a lot of time and money into Red in the last year. But if it is to penetrate the broadcast market, they have to implement a pro audio input section.

I understand how hard they are working on image quality and options - that's great. Put one pro audio guy on the case and these issues can be fixed.

How many Panavision cameras and Arri 35 film cameras are out there vs. how many betacams / HDCAMs / Varicams / Xdcams? For broadcast, Red must have audio at least as good and usable as the betacam I retired five years ago.

[Meryem Ersoz]

- The RED-ONE already outperforms most, if not all professional video cameras when fed with a line level input.



I think that we folks fussing about the audio just want a straight answer as to whether 48v mic level onboard recording will ever be possible with existing RED ONEs (I have already bought my cameras, so I'm obviously not holding my purchase hostage over this).

But I just want to know how to set my expectations. Will I always need to set up a MixPre to compensate for what RED ONE does not do, audio-wise, at the mic level? Or not? Or is the question simply not answerable, right now, because it is something that requires more investigation by RED? Like eclaire, I'm willing to wait, but it's an important issue to me, and I would like to have a straight answer to the question.

For fast conditions, rigging a MixPre to the camera to obtain line-level sound is a PITA and a weak solution. I tried to do some sports shooting with this, for a national TV broadcast that we are working on, and the mic level is too noisy, and the line level, if it has to be rigged to the camera makes the whole unit too unwieldy to be as mobile as I need it, so my dream of adding RED footage to our national broadcast had to be dropped. I can think of several other applications, for which I planned to use RED, where the onboard audio, as it is, will likely force me to pick up another camera.

At least one of my cameras will probably become an EPIC eventually, and I hope the whole discussion is moot, at that point, but an answer to the question right now would be a big help in terms of knowing what I can plan for, or not.

[Steve Sherrick]

I don't disagree with where you guys are coming from. I come from an audio background, so I am just as interested in seeing Red One excel in its audio capabilities as you are. As a digital cinema camera (which Red is first and foremost. Broadcast and other genres just get to take advantage of it too) it's first priority is picture, because in the cinema world most projects are shot double system sound. And that is a good thing for the production because it means the sound recordist is in full control of the audio, not the cameraman.

Of course, now the Red has become all things to all people. Heck, someone even shot a wedding with one (which looked amazing by the way). So, now it is no longer a digital cinema camera. It is a 4K Digital Video Camera that can be used on features, commercials, PSAs, corporate, sports, and weddings. So, audio has become a high priority because some of these genres are more run and gun with microphones strapped to the camera, looking for phantom power at a high quality level. So, the question now becomes, what is inside the camera for audio hardware and is it capable of giving people the critical quality they are looking for (very subjective of course, but let's assume it's quality we would expect on a DVCProHD camera). Okay, here's how you judge that.

1. Does phantom power provide clean, true 48V power to the microphone?
2. What is the S/N ratio?
3. Is there a built in limiter?
4. Are there easy ways to control audio levels?
5. Does the mic pre have a neutral quality, or is it adding character?
6. Is 24bits, truly 24bits?
7. Is the circuitry isolated enough from some of the internal components of the camera?
8. What issues can be traced to hardware and what issues can be traced to firmware?

W can open up a lot of cans of worms here, and for me I've placed so much emphasis on the visuals up to this point, as well as the workflow, that audio has had to take a backseat. Well, now I'm going to take a closer look. I am hopeful that I will be able to work with the audio section, and find out what it can and cannot do. I do know that it has had no issues so far when taking line level, and I've used battery powered mics (Rode NTG2 and Sony ECM 77B). I will test phantom power next, using the camera's power and pres. I will report back with my findings.

[Mark B.]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body. There are enough people complaining about it that if the solution was a firmware issue, we would already have a fixed system.

I'd be interested to hear about your findings regarding the phantom power.

[Stuart English]

I do know that it has had no issues so far when taking line level, and I've used battery powered mics (Rode NTG2 and Sony ECM 77B). I will test phantom power next, using the camera's power and pres. I will report back with my findings.

I'd concur with the above. It matches what other end users have said. What you will most likely find is that the phantom power is not at this point in time particularly clean, so use with due caution. Battery power, or some alternate form of +48V auxiliary power to the mic will help that issue.

Audio (mic pre-amp) level control is available outside of the menus on Build 16 by reassignment of the User Keys and / or using the rotary switch of the RED-EVF.

[Steve Sherrick]

I'd concur with the above. It matches what other end users have said. What you will most likely find is that the phantom power is not at this point in time particularly clean, so use with due caution. Battery power, or some alternate form of +48V auxiliary power to the mic will help that issue.

Audio (mic pre-amp) level control is available outside of the menus on Build 16 by reassignment of the User Keys and / or using the rotary switch of the RED-EVF.

Well, if that is the case, then yes it is a weak point in the audio chain. So it will entail a workaround for shooters who are trying to keep the camera lean and don't want to strap additional audio gear on there. This little guy would be great if it had the proper outputs.
http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php

I do like that you guys have implemented the user assignable buttons and having control on the EVF is handy.

For those who are thinking of not buying the camera because of the audio issues, all I can say is that you are missing out. If you are creative with how you build the camera, you can mount a Sound Devices MM-1 on the camera with no problem. Then your wireless Lav can go into channel 2 and will run on its own battery power source. The top cheeseplate gives you a lot of options for mounting things to the camera and if you use vertical and horizontal space efficiently, I think you can get around this.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body. There are enough people complaining about it that if the solution was a firmware issue, we would already have a fixed system.


See, this is what's scary. I hear what Stuart is saying, but, unfortunately, I hear even louder what he (and RED) are NOT saying. When threads like this go on and on and the only response is to point up the meager things that the audio section does competently (record line level signals cleanly), it only serves to connote that RED is not going to do anything at the hardware level to correct the obvious defects in the audio input section. This is counter to the way the company deals with ever other issue with the camera and its workflow, so I'm trying not to be to dramatic or pessimistic, but that is the consistent vibe I've gotten about audio problems.

I really wish Jim would peep his head into this forum just once so that he could understand how important audio functionality is to a great segment of his potential and current user base and so that those of us with cash on reserve for this camera know whether it's a purchase we will have to abandon.

[Mark L. Pederson]

unfortunately, I hear even louder what he (and RED) are NOT saying. When threads like this go on and on and the only response is to point up the meager things that the audio section does competently (record line level signals cleanly), it only serves to connote that RED is not going to do anything at the hardware level to correct the obvious defects in the audio input section.

well ... having been here since DAY ONE - I would have to say that if you know your "Red History" you would know of MANY things Red did not comment on and then one day - BAM they show up.

If you seriously think you can assess what RED is really doing or not doing based on if they comment or not on a REDUSER forum thread ... well .... that's pretty silly.

Now, being the "glass is half-full" guy I am - I would say to you - you still see the Phantom Power in the menu, right? Well, if Red didn't think they could get it right - don't you think they would just remove the option?

And yes, I REALLY want all the audio features you do.

I actually EXPECT Red to put a bit of focus on the audio features after bugs get worked out of Build 16.

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

[Steve Sherrick]

Elizabeth, have you had a chance to use the camera yet? If you were close by, I'd invite you over to do some tests so you could make an informed decision. I know it can be tough hearing about these kinds of things while trying to decide whether to purchase it or not, but I think most would agree that even despite the issues that still exist, including audio the camera is really starting to take shape and is capturing some amazing images. I can tell you first hand that the camera I got back a few months ago is not the same camera I have right now. So, that shows you these guys are working behind the scenes to solve as many of the remaining issues they can and they are also implementing some new features along the way.

I can't even imagine how hard it must be to make a camera that will be used by so many people with differing opinions about what they want and don't want. How do you keep everyone happy?

Anyway, as I said I think there are valid concerns being expressed and I know the workarounds may not be everyone's cup of tea, but until someone from Red comes out and says that phantom power will never work right, I'm going to hold out hope that they are working on some solutions.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

well ... having been here since DAY ONE - I would have to say that if you know your "Red History" you would know of MANY things Red did not comment on and then one day - BAM they show up.

If you seriously think you can assess what RED is really doing or not doing based on if they comment or not on a REDUSER forum thread ... well .... that's pretty silly.

Now, being the "glass is half-full" guy I am - I would say to you - you still see the Phantom Power in the menu, right? Well, if Red didn't think they could get it right - don't you think they would just remove the option?

And yes, I REALLY want all the audio features you do.

I actually EXPECT Red to put a bit of focus on the audio features after bugs get worked out of Build 16.

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

Offhollywood, I greatly respect your knowledge and posting record here, but I think you're being a bit too defensive and huffy.

I haven't passed a verdict, nor have I definitively stated that their comments (or lack thereof) on REDUser are the sole indicators of their intentions re the audio. But the unquestionable relative silence on these issues is a departure from their norm and is a cause for some concern about the lengths to which they are willing to go to fix the audio. It's that concern, that anxiety, that I've attempted to express here.

You would agree with me, would you not, that they (Jim) also has a history of publicly acknowledging and stating here their commitment to fixing various problems long before those problems were in fact resolved or improved? Whether it was simultaneous outputs or lens data (still not implemented but coming) or a bad PL lens mount or PC support or higher capacity SD cards or the release of the SDK or the black hole sun or rolling shutter or what have you, all were issues that were acknowledged with pledges of improvement early on and not met simply with statements of what the camera could already do, which has been the consistent tact (when there is response at all) about these audio issues, issues which, by estimation of those far more knowledgeable in engineering matters than I, are almost certainly HARDWARE issues. In this respect, the vibe out of RED about the audio is much closer to that which accompanied the many complaints about deficiencies in the RED grip hardware, with the shoulder pad/dovetail having a caveat tacked onto its product description ONLY AFTER many had purchased it with the understandable expectation that it would function properly as a tripod mount since it -- duh -- featured a tripod interface and was initially advertised as suitable for that use.

Putting all cards on the table, the obvious tension here lies in the fear that these audio defects will call for a hardware replacement or repair on a product that is already 2000 deep in circulation and which, from the hints we've gleaned, does not have a very big profit margin. Recalls on 2000+ cameras is not something any manufacturer would relish, so I understand what's at stake. Complicating matters is the fact that the next 2,000+ cameras are also locked in at the 17.5K price point, so even if hardware changes were implemented tomorrow, there is no way to immediately recoup the expense of the revisions and of the recall.

But make no mistake about it, unless and until RED announces specific limitations to its audio section, which would only affect the warranty for future sales and not for the over 4,000 already sold or locked in via reserve, the audio section as it exists today is defective as it would not pass without objection in the industry/is not fit for the ordinary purposes for which it was intended. (Yes, I have a law degree and maintain my membership in the Florida Bar, so I know a little about the UCC.) And that's why I think that the longer RED defers this issue, the bigger the problem will become.

For me, personally, the issue is much simpler: my reservation will be coming up this month. I expect my first contact within a couple of weeks. At that time, I will have 30 days to decide whether this camera and related support purchases are worth the $27K or so I will have to spend. For me to answer that question intelligently, I must absolutely have an answer to the question of whether the audio functionality, quality, and compatibility of this camera will at least equal what I could expect from an HVX, EX-1, or any other low-end hi definition camera with a purported 4-channel audio input. That means I must know whether I can plug a standard-pinned condenser mic with a standard XLR cable and a standard XLR-miniXLR converter plug directly into the camera and acquire audio at 16 bit/ 48 Khz or greater resolution without hums or unreasonable noise. It's really that simple. If I can get assurances now that that will be the case, even if it takes a while to get there, then I will happily shut my mouth and open my wallet.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Elizabeth, have you had a chance to use the camera yet? If you were close by, I'd invite you over to do some tests so you could make an informed decision. I know it can be tough hearing about these kinds of things while trying to decide whether to purchase it or not, but I think most would agree that even despite the issues that still exist, including audio the camera is really starting to take shape and is capturing some amazing images. I can tell you first hand that the camera I got back a few months ago is not the same camera I have right now. So, that shows you these guys are working behind the scenes to solve as many of the remaining issues they can and they are also implementing some new features along the way.

I can't even imagine how hard it must be to make a camera that will be used by so many people with differing opinions about what they want and don't want. How do you keep everyone happy?

Anyway, as I said I think there are valid concerns being expressed and I know the workarounds may not be everyone's cup of tea, but until someone from Red comes out and says that phantom power will never work right, I'm going to hold out hope that they are working on some solutions.

No, unfortunately I have not. There is one RED owner in my area, and he indicated he was willing to let me get some hands on time in his studio, but, so far, he hasn't called back with specific offer of day and time. I hesitate to nag since I've already called him twice and PM'd him once. (Craig, if you're reading this, call me.:biggrin: )

I share everyone's admiration for what the camera represents and for what it can do on the visual side. That's not even minutely in contention. But I come from a video background, and I'm part of that large contingent of users attempting to move up from cameras like the DVX and HVX. I'm certain there are workarounds for the existing shortcomings in the RED audio, but as a predominantly solo shooter with a desire to keep budget, gear, weight, and manpower as low as possible, I absolutely require my camera to be able to capture decent audio from direct microphone feeds. And so this issue is literally "make or break" for me, no matter how foreign that sounds to people who weight image so heavily that audio is an afterthought or who come from the film world where audio is always acquired extrinsically to picture.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Offhollywood, I greatly respect your knowledge and posting record here, but I think you're being a bit too defensive and huffy.

Not huffy at all - that's the internet.


For me to answer that question intelligently, I must absolutely have an answer to the question of whether the audio functionality, quality, and compatibility of this camera will at least equal what I could expect from an HVX, EX-1, or any other low-end hi definition camera with a purported 4-channel audio input. That means I must know whether I can plug a standard-pinned condenser mic with a standard XLR cable and a standard XLR-miniXLR converter plug directly into the camera and acquire audio at 16 bit/ 48 Khz or greater resolution without hums or unreasonable noise. It's really that simple. If I can get assurances now that that will be the case, even if it takes a while to get there, then I will happily shut my mouth and open my wallet.
I think that is very fair.

I will be shocked if don't happily shut your mouth.

You will love the camera.

[Meryem Ersoz]

From what I understand, Red's audio problems are a permanent hardware problem that can only be fixed with new electronics being installed in the body.

This is the conventional reduser wisdom/rumor, I have heard it repeated many times -- that is why I would like a straight answer from someone actually representing RED, even if the answer is as simple as "this issue requires further investigation and we are hoping that we can fix it, but the purported rumor may indeed prove to be true."

As Offhollywood points out, RED excels at descending upon us with unexpected surprises -- but it is precisely this quality which makes the silence on this audio issue so disconcerting.

On one hand, they are making miracles occur daily. Miracles. So why the lack of response on something that, by comparison, should be relatively easy to address--maybe not easy to fix, mind you, but it shouldn't be something that falls into the category of they don't know--unless, of course, they don't know. But even that is something *I'd* like to know.

[James Brundige]

1. Does phantom power provide clean, true 48V power to the microphone?
2. What is the S/N ratio?
3. Is there a built in limiter?
4. Are there easy ways to control audio levels?
5. Does the mic pre have a neutral quality, or is it adding character?
6. Is 24bits, truly 24bits?
7. Is the circuitry isolated enough from some of the internal components of the camera?
8. What issues can be traced to hardware and what issues can be traced to firmware?

.

Great summary of what is needed, Steve. I think a hardware solution will be required. It seems that epic will have XLRs and probably decent preamps to go with - buttons and knobs I hope. Maybe an add on box can do this for the Red One.

[Bruce Allen]

I am just trying to say - I don't think you can pass a verdict on audio in the Red One yet.

Yes you can. For example, with the PD150, the verdict is that Sony screwed up the audio on the PD150 and then offered an upgrade later. So when renting the PD150 you had to be careful. And when Sony offered the PD170 people knew what to watch out for, so when some PD170s had audio problems, these were more quickly caught and identified by the end user.

Similarly, with Red, the verdict last time I checked was that they messed up the audio on their camera. If they fix it then the verdict becomes that Red messed up the audio on their camera then fixed it a while later. But the first part is still true. And you'll need to watch out for un-fixed cameras if renting.

Specifically, what is messed up:
1. phantom power
2. no kind of hardware limiting, plus instruction manual shows whoever is in charge of sound at Red has weird idea of how sound works - EG:
"Due to the high precision and dynamic range of 24-bit sampling, the RED-ONE camera does not provide input stage limiters or an AGC. The digitized data can be considered as high dynamic range RAW sound information that is complimentary to the high dynamic range RAW video information." ?!?!
3. the inputs are just plain odd - they seem to be too hot and thanks to the lack of gain circuitry Red had to put a resistor in their cables to compensate?
4. post workflow is confusing. Is sound still mis-labeled as 32-bit floating point when importing into the Avid? How do we check sound on a PC?
5. does timecode really, actually synch perfectly with all industry-standard devices? For PAL as well? There seem to be problems still being encountered.
6. ergonomics are bad (no pots?!?)

Based on this, how can you not have a verdict that the DVX100 beats the Red in audio capabilities overall?

It would be different if there was a disclaimer saying "AUDIO NOT FULLY WORKING YET" but last time I checked Red.com I didn't see that.

Again, I love Red but hope they fix these issues for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[James Brundige]

I share everyone's admiration for what the camera represents and for what it can do on the visual side. That's not even minutely in contention. But I come from a video background, and I'm part of that large contingent of users attempting to move up from cameras like the DVX and HVX. I'm certain there are workarounds for the existing shortcomings in the RED audio, but as a predominantly solo shooter with a desire to keep budget, gear, weight, and manpower as low as possible, I absolutely require my camera to be able to capture decent audio from direct microphone feeds. And so this issue is literally "make or break" for me, no matter how foreign that sounds to people who weight image so heavily that audio is an afterthought or who come from the film world where audio is always acquired extrinsically to picture.

At this point, the Red is more of a crew camera, aimed at the film crowd. I hope they recognize the broadcast / doc market is huge. It won't be hard to make a decent audio section a solo shooter can operate, so I assume it will happen. I agree it would be nice to hear a real commitment in that direction.

[Mark Allen]

Forgetting future upgrades and such, has anyone detailed the instructions on how to make the line input work?

I'm imagining you need an outboard mixer that has phantom power and levels... and then sending it into the red after that - with some specified audio settings. A video from those tutorial video guys and/or a written recommendation spec would be great though.

[Andrew M.]

Yes you can. For example, with the PD150, the verdict is that Sony screwed up the audio on the PD150 and then offered an upgrade later. So when renting the PD150 you had to be careful. And when Sony offered the PD170 people knew what to watch out for, so when some PD170s had audio problems, these were more quickly caught and identified by the end user.

Similarly, with Red, the verdict last time I checked was that they messed up the audio on their camera. If they fix it then the verdict becomes that Red messed up the audio on their camera then fixed it a while later. But the first part is still true. And you'll need to watch out for un-fixed cameras if renting.

Specifically, what is messed up:
1. phantom power
2. no kind of hardware limiting, plus instruction manual shows whoever is in charge of sound at Red has weird idea of how sound works - EG:
"Due to the high precision and dynamic range of 24-bit sampling, the RED-ONE camera does not provide input stage limiters or an AGC. The digitized data can be considered as high dynamic range RAW sound information that is complimentary to the high dynamic range RAW video information." ?!?!
3. the inputs are just plain odd - they seem to be too hot and thanks to the lack of gain circuitry Red had to put a resistor in their cables to compensate?
4. post workflow is confusing. Is sound still mis-labeled as 32-bit floating point when importing into the Avid? How do we check sound on a PC?
5. does timecode really, actually synch perfectly with all industry-standard devices? For PAL as well? There seem to be problems still being encountered.
6. ergonomics are bad (no pots?!?)

Based on this, how can you not have a verdict that the DVX100 beats the Red in audio capabilities overall?

It would be different if there was a disclaimer saying "AUDIO NOT FULLY WORKING YET" but last time I checked Red.com I didn't see that.

Again, I love Red but hope they fix these issues for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, I posted way around on all this problems.

However you mentioned two interesting items.
No pods, yes, you had to go deep in to the menus before build 16, now you can program "radio" button and mike adjustment pops up, well it is not a pod but joystick then.
Interesting remark of yours about 32-bit float.
I use export from QT and I see some miss-labelled '32 Byte audio sample' info but I can force it in export options in to the 24 bit. If I don't do it the Premiere will not like the audio.

Can you elaborate on your experience and miss-labelling?

[Hans von Sonntag]

At this point, the Red is more of a crew camera, aimed at the film crowd. I hope they recognize the broadcast / doc market is huge. It won't be hard to make a decent audio section a solo shooter can operate, so I assume it will happen. I agree it would be nice to hear a real commitment in that direction.

Yes, Red is a crew camera. We use it in both worlds, commercials and docs. For doc shoots we use it in 3K 2:1 mode with a Canon 8-64 S16 lens. Although this lens is not havier than a standard ENG lens the whole camera is very heavy (at least as heavy as a tricked-out F900) and bulky. You need at least a crew of 3 (soundman, cameraman, producer/assistant) not only to handle the equipment, pulling focus, recording sound, etc... but also wrangling data. Wrangling data gets often totally underestimated.

TC sync works flawlessly. We use Red (build 15) as slave and the SD 744T as master. After each boot of the camera syncing has to be redone. We don't use Red's sound capabilities, since beeing tethered is for the soundman as well the cameraman not attractive and constrict the work of both considerably. Syncing in post - Avid and FCP only, Premier cannot read embeded TC in soundfiles yet - is just one click and more than convenient.

Nevertheless a working 48V phantom power and microphone IN would be nice. A sleek little stereo mic attached to the fronthandle would be great. Using an external microphone/line adaptor makes the already heavy and bulky camera even more complicated and havier.

We did some testing with wireless/diversity line in and monitor out and found that all this extra gadgets make the Red too cumbersome and almost impossible to operate from the shoulder.

When I read some of the post and complaints (which are for sure based on deep knowledge) I get the feeling that one or the other didn't take a Red in a real world production in the field yet. TC synced to an external soundrecorder solves most problems and makes the work for the crew much more convenient and brings better results. IMO the golden route.

RedOne is not ENG or can be compared to standard EFP camera systems. Horses for courses as they say.

Hans

[Bruce Allen]

When I read some of the post and complaints (which are for sure based on deep knowledge) I get the feeling that one or the other didn't take a Red in a real world production in the field yet. TC synced to an external soundrecorder solves most problems and makes the work for the crew much more convenient and brings better results. IMO the golden route.

100% in agreement with you Hans. That's how I work.

But when I recommend RED to my friends to buy or rent (some of whom use in-camera audio), I need to carefully go over all of the things that don't work properly with the camera, or else they will say "Bruce, you recommended me a camera with audio that is totally screwed up".


You need at least a crew of 3 (soundman, cameraman, producer/assistant) not only to handle the equipment, pulling focus, recording sound, etc... but also wrangling data. Wrangling data gets often totally underestimated.

I agree.



TC sync works flawlessly. We use Red (build 15) as slave and the SD 744T as master.

Yes, that combo works and is good enough for me. Others using reputable gear (Denecke etc) seem to give problems?



After each boot of the camera syncing has to be redone.

Sucks, doesn't it?



Nevertheless a working 48V phantom power and microphone IN would be nice.

Of course! What if you bought a Varicam etc and found that they didn't bother to make those basic features work? You'd be pissed.



RedOne is not ENG or can be compared to standard EFP camera systems. Horses for courses as they say.

Hans

Totally agree with you, but then you have guys like Gibby running around talking about it being the ultimate EFP camera and confusing all of my friends who lurk on Reduser. Then you read the fine print and realize he hasn't exactly rushed out to sell his other cameras yet...


Bruce, I posted way around on all this problems.

However you mentioned two interesting items.
No pods, yes, you had to go deep in to the menus before build 16, now you can program "radio" button and mike adjustment pops up, well it is not a pod but joystick then.
Interesting remark of yours about 32-bit float.
I use export from QT and I see some miss-labelled '32 Byte audio sample' info but I can force it in export options in to the 24 bit. If I don't do it the Premiere will not like the audio.

Can you elaborate on your experience and miss-labelling?

Andrew

I agree, there are ways around the problems. But they involve buying extra gear or are cumbersome. If you program the radio button to mic adjustment, then you lose the ability to use those buttons for image control, right? And it's still not as good as a pot. So that's why I say DVX100 is overall better than RED at audio - it doesn't require workarounds.

If there was a note on RED.com detailing the audio problems and the workarounds required, that would be cool but instead everyone seem to find this out after they buy the camera.

RE: audio, I tried it early on without success. According to MichaelP, apparently the new (Beta 16 ?) version of Red Alert has a "Avid Audio Compatbile check box" in you can select to repack the 32bit audio into 24. But I am on a PC most of the time so can't really check this. This still seems like a design flaw to me - the audio is 24bit and should be stored that way. But if their weird method works without quality loss, that's okay. And again, a system that requires you to hit a check box and is only currently available on a Mac is just not competitive if you compare it to the workflow of a DVX, F900, etc.

Oh and looks like they removed the stupid "we don't need limiters or gain controls because we record HDR audio" paragraph from the Build 16 manual (it's in the Build 15 manual). And they actually documented the (very weird and obviously incorrect) audio input levels and explained what the resistor in their cables does. That's good, it's a start, and I have higher hopes for Epic and Scarlet.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Hans von Sonntag]

Bruce, I totally agree with you but frankly tell your friends to open their eyes. When I saw Red the first time (over 2 years ago) I instantly realised that it was all but not an EFP workhorse:

- All conectors on the dumb side. That's and odd place. Cables sticking out like a hedgehogs quills is far from lean. Even a breakoutbox will be a compromise at an extra expense: Bulky, heavy, ugly, the camera turns into a squared box.

- Mini-XLR. Wie don't have to talk about this.

- Full 35mm sized sensor. You never get focus nailed as an one-man-show. (unless you're Gibby...)

- No automatic exposure

- No quickplate, nor shoulder pads ala Sony

The list can go on an on.

It was/is plain obvious to everyone: The Red is a brilliant step in camera development but surely not made for EFP. If you want that kind of stuff go Sony or Panasonic. They produce brilliant workhorses in this regard. And yes, Gibby's praises for Red being an EFP camera is surely misleading. I'm not saying thats impossible but a F900R is much more convenient, faster and reliable and capable to produce excellent pictures. It surely outperformes Red when used in 2K mode.

Nevertheless should Red work on audio but its obvious that the RedOne will be crippled in this regard until EOL. You can call it a miss-design what ever but if you want sound its perfectly there - to the highest level: Get a TC capable sound recorder.


Rant over.

Hans

[Bruce Allen]

Hans, you are so right...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Andrew M.]

Hans, I respect your point of view but I use camera on my shoulder and under water and I will not say that F900 is more convenient. I just can’t do with Sony what I can do with RED, convenience aside.

I agree that for audio, if you do not have knowledge of the trade it is bit tricky, but that is why we have this and few other discussion boards. The fact is that these discussion boards do have very bad searching capabilities, so if you don’t read it regularly to find anything here, is a pain. At minimum we should have AND and OR clearly explained in the searching submenu.

I use audio (with the phantom power from RED) and I can nail the focus quite good now.
I do not see any difference in audio quality using phantom power from inactive ch4 and using line level using external phantom power and preamp.
As to the focus, well I am lucky, I use wide angle lenses most of the time so focus there is much more forgiving then 40mm and up. I agree to nail the focus on 65mm at 4K it takes a lot of experience, I am getting there.

Like any other equipment, it takes time to get used to it.

[Meryem Ersoz]

- Full 35mm sized sensor. You never get focus nailed as an one-man-show. (unless you're Gibby...)

Get a TC capable sound recorder.


Rant over.

Hans

I don't know why a rant is merited, when we are only requesting what was already promised in the specs and in the menus supplied by RED...if you feel a need to rant, a far more fitting place for it would be over in the 4.5K surprise thread, where people can't seem to express the proper gratitude for a new feature, not in a thread that's pondering over whether promised features and specs will be enabled.

Or not.

I'm grateful for this camera, I want to be able to use it in ALL of our higher-end EFP applications for which I produce professional video, not a narrow segment.

Moreover, saying that you never get focus nailed as a one man show is flat-out wrong. Not to mention condescending. Focus is not a problem, and 1080 monitoring, a feature that was *never* promised but has been enabled before the audio issues are resolved or even clarified, need I point out, only makes this easier.

I have a TC enabled Edirol R4Pro. I have a Sound Devices MixPre. I use them where it is appropriate and practical.

But I'm sick of people saying that recording dual sound is the solution. It's not a solution for me. There are some situations where I record double system.

But the bottom line is that it's not practical for every application that the camera IS practical for, period.

If that doesn't apply to you, then you have nothing to complain about, rah for you. But that's one less national TV broadcast credit that I can add to my RED reel, and frankly, that is too bad for me and too bad for RED.

Being advised to ad more gear to an unwieldy load is not fixing the problem.

Fixing the problem is fixing the problem.

**rant back atcha**

[Joel Kaye]

Being advised to ad more gear to an unwieldy load is not fixing the problem.

Fixing the problem is fixing the problem.

Ditto. You can run this camera yourself for a number of types of shoots. I just like to have ambient audio when I'm out shooting. I can call out notes to myself if nothing else. I'm going to try building Andrew's cable. If that gets me one channel of audio it'll help a lot.

[Sam Roberts]

This is all very disconcerting. There is no WAY I will ever record double system sound. Can anyone recommend a good shotgun mic with built in phantom power.

[Steve Sherrick]

This is all very disconcerting. There is no WAY I will ever record double system sound. Can anyone recommend a good shotgun mic with built in phantom power.

A lot of shotgun mics have battery power. Not always the same results as phantom power, but they can certainly aleviate any phantom power issues you may be having. Rode NTG2, Sennheisser ME66, etc all have a battery power option.

[Bruce Allen]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all run off phantom or T-power and you'll need something that provides that power.

Sam Roberts, the best option if you don't want external boxes is to try Andrew's hack (use phantom power from one channel while recording to another).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Steve Sherrick]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all run off phantom or T-power and you'll need something that provides that power.

Sam Roberts, the best option if you don't want external boxes is to try Andrew's hack (use phantom power from one channel while recording to another).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Oh, I know, they are pretty terrible mics. But they have battery power, so they are possible an option for some people, that's why I mentioned them. Yes, 416 is a workhorse, as is the Schoeps, and the Senn MKH60. But there is no mic that I know of that runs off phantom power built into the microphone itself.

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

[Bruce Allen]

Forgetting future upgrades and such, has anyone detailed the instructions on how to make the line input work?

I'm imagining you need an outboard mixer that has phantom power and levels... and then sending it into the red after that - with some specified audio settings.

Yes. Also timecode.



A video from those tutorial video guys and/or a written recommendation spec would be great though.

The updated Build 16 manual now has clearer written recommendation RE line levels (vs the Build 15 manual), so check it out. It also explains what the resistors in their cables do to bring audio levels to a more sane place.

"For line inputs used with a RED supplied XLR to mini-XLR adaptor cable, full scale (FS) level
will be +18 dBU (6.5 Volts RMS). To achieve 14 dB of input headroom set the nominal input
to a level of +4 dBU (1.3 Volts RMS).
For line inputs used without a RED supplied XLR to mini-XLR adaptor cable, full scale (FS)
level will be +8 dBU (2.0 Volts RMS). To achieve 14 dB of input headroom set the nominal
input to a level of -6 dBU (0.48 Volts RMS)."

I think you cannot change line input level on RED at the moment. It is locked. The audio level setting in the menu doesn't affect it.

EDIT: Hey, they added a note RE phantom power too!
Note: The phantom power supply within the RED ONE may contribute too much
noise when paired with low sensitivity microphones. In this case it is preferred
to use a bat tery powered microphone or an external phantom power source.

That's cool, at least people can read this and make their own decision before making a camera buying decision. That's far more fair for new buyers.


Oh, I know, they are pretty terrible mics. But they have battery power, so they are possible an option for some people, that's why I mentioned them. Yes, 416 is a workhorse, as is the Schoeps, and the Senn MKH60. But there is no mic that I know of that runs off phantom power built into the microphone itself.

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

Steve, agree 100%.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Andrew M.]

So, try Andrew's hack, try external pres/phantom power sources, etc until a solution comes along that addresses this issue. But don't let it be the only thing that keeps you from using the camera, because I really think you're missing out. I'd rather use temporary workarounds and get the mostly positive attributes of the system.

The phantom power from ch4 cable got simplified lately.
Looks like you don't need 2 X 47 uF and 100 uF capacitors. Apparently these are already inside the RED audio board.
However .1 uF capacitor 100 Ohm resistor and the rest and small inductor coil is a must.


Harry Quan made few more cables like this and all components are in the connector enclosure, so no external box is needed if you have small parts.

Actually RED should make this cable like they make the xlr-XLR cable.

Here you have audio sample (Stereo) recorded using this cable.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=223759&postcount=8

I am talking 5' away from the mike with low voice.
The only noise you can hear is the computer fan 10' away and RED lowest RPM fan.

I still can't figure out how to shut the RED fan completely. I did try all modes and at minimum there is very low RPM turning fan going on in the best case.

Anybody succeeded to shut it completely off?

I know, for the first minutes or two it is off in silent mode but then starts turning again.

[Sam Roberts]

ME66 NTG-2 ahahahaa... those are NOT good mics. At all.

Seriously, don't use less than a 416. Even my short student film made for $300 in South Africa used a 416.

If you are indoors, use a Schoeps MK41 plus CMBI battery amplifier:
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

It's not a shotgun but it's awesome. Used on many great films.

I'm not sure that a good shotgun exists that runs off battery power. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I

I have a 416 that I've used for years, I also have the Sennheiser MZA 14TU power supply which I have never had to use. Will this power supply give me the phantom power needed to input the RED from an onboard 416?

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/root/products_microphones_accessories_powersupplies

As for self powered mics after a quick search I see Sony makes one, the ECM-674 anybody know anything about it?

[Bruce Allen]

I have a 416 that I've used for years, I also have the Sennheiser MZA 14TU power supply which I have never had to use. Will this power supply give me the phantom power needed to input the RED from an onboard 416?

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/root/products_microphones_accessories_powersupplies

As for self powered mics after a quick search I see Sony makes one, the ECM-674 anybody know anything about it?

Ah yes T-power... so you have a T-power 416 and you normally use a phantom-to-T-power adapter, but with the Red you're going to use that T-power battery box, right?

Sounds fine, go ahead... turn off phantom power from Red camera and you should be good to go.

I've never heard of the Sony mic. I have nothing against Japanese mics (Sanken, Audio Technica) but I wouldn't take the risk on sound quality without a glowing review from a trusted source, methinks? Try before you buy.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Sam Roberts]

Ah yes T-power... so you have a T-power 416 and you normally use a phantom-to-T-power adapter, but with the Red you're going to use that T-power battery box, right?

Well I have always just plugged the mic straight into the XLR phantom power input at the front of the camera.

So yes I guess now I'll need to go mic to battery powered T power supply box to RED XLR to mini XLR into a line input. I hate having to attach ONE MORE thing to the body of the camera, but until they get this problem fixed I guess I don't have a choice.

I've used Sony's ECM lapel mics for interviews for years and the quality is good. Maybe their self powered ECM shotgun might be OK. I'll try the Sennheiser phantom power box first.

thanks Bruce.

[Bruce Allen]

Woah, don't thank me yet. Is your 416 the P48 (Phantom powered) model or the older T-power model? I was assuming it was the T-powered one since you were talking about powering it with a T-power box.

Sounds like you might be wanting to power a Phantom-powered 416 with a T-power box. Which won't work. Be careful. Figure out what kind of mic you have first.

If you have T-power 416, you can use your use your MZA 14 TU powering box.

If you have Phantom-power 416, use Andrew's cool cable hack of getting phantom power from ch4 while recording to ch1. Or buy a Sound Devices MixPre. Costs $700 or so and also gives you REAL POTS (ohmygod). Or you could get the phantom version of the Sennheiser box you have (MZA 14 P 48 U). But if you're buying a new box to stick to your camera, might as well fix the lack of pots at the same time.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Sam Roberts]

Hi Bruce. I have an MKH 416 P48 which I've had for 15 years. It's a great mic. I've never had one problem with it ever. As far the the T power box goes, the details are lost in the mists of time. Like I said I never used it because I always had a camera with a phantom power supply. I just assumed it came with the mic. Could be one of the sound guys I've worked with over the years left it in my kit by mistake.

Anyway I'll check out those options you mentioned. I'll do a search on Andrew's cable idea.

[ericyoung]

Phantom and T aren't compatible - and seem to remember that if they are plugged in one way, damage can occur to the mic or the phantom power. Can't remember which way though!

[Bruce Allen]

Yes, hopefully that is averted. I've been told to definitely not to connect T-power mic to phantom power.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Sam Roberts]

Not to worry I put the Tpower back on the shelf and went over to Sound Devices to have a look. Nice little Prepro mixer although still a bit big at 5 1/2 X 3 1/2 inches. I don't know where I'd put it on the camera. They do have a simple phantom power supply unit MP-1 but size-wise it's the same as the mixer but around $300 less. I suppose I could get on of those Portabrace Mixer slings and tuck it in there for hand held, but, lots of wires to get snagged on things.

[Joseph Ward]

Stupid question I know but..

If its a hardware problem?
Wouldn't it be possible for Red to just replace bad audio hardware for existing owners and start making new Red Ones with new improved ones?

[Steve Sherrick]

Stupid question I know but..

If its a hardware problem?
Wouldn't it be possible for Red to just replace bad audio hardware for existing owners and start making new Red Ones with new improved ones?

It will not be easy to replace hardware, and it also means current owners would have to take their cameras out of the field to send to Red. I'm sure the impact is big, even for cameras that have not been shipped yet. It may just be one of those things that Red One users have to work around. But at least there are workarounds, and no one is dead in the water as far as audio is concerned. Inconvenienced, yes. Unable to get a nice audio recording with Red, no.

[Meryem Ersoz]

These workarounds aren't cheap. I paid $500 for my MixPre many years ago (it currently retails for $665 at B&H, the MM-1 is $349), and you drop from 4 channel audio to either one (MM-1) or two (Mixpre) useable channels. If you don't already own these devices, then you will have to buy them.

I have my MixPre bungee corded to my top rods, for lack of a better placement. It looks and feels totally ghetto-rigged and limits the mobility of the camera. Works, though. But it definitely puts limits around my ability to use the camera.

For the money--not to mention the weight reduction--I would even pay up to have RED 'fess up, if it is a hardware problem, and then offer something like an Audio Enhancement or Audio Upgrade, where I pay to have the hardware fixed so that the onboard audio works the way that it is supposed to.

It would be worth it, if they could do it for less than the cost of a MixPre....

Then my MixPre would be an option that I choose, rather than a requirement that I can't get by without...

The silence around audio and the recommendations that the audio is "just fine" because we can get line level recordings that are better than an F900-- those are just a bummer.

If RED was saying something more along the lines of "hey, our audio is only 4 firmware fixes old, and we have big plans for enhancements that will allow our world-class image to be matched by our world-class audio, just give us a chance to get caught up" -- now THAT would be reassuring.

THAT would sound like the RED camera company that I thought that I knew...not this insistence that "you can get outstanding sound as long as you close your eyes and pretend not to notice the parts that aren't working..."

[Paul Hazlett]

I have had great sucess with on board audio very clean very nice, but I always have a sound guy and use line level. Even if you have a smaller mixer
I think its worth it to run sound through it instead of trying to use 48 volt from the camera. at least for now.

[Joel Kaye]

It will not be easy to replace hardware, and it also means current owners would have to take their cameras out of the field to send to Red.

If Sony shipped the EX1 and the phantom power acts like it does on RED every EX1 would have been shipped back and Sony would have repaired them. That's just a fact. JVC took back thousands of HD-100's to fix the SSE issue. Did that cost JVC a fortune? Yeah, but they took care of their customers.

RED knew about this problem before they recalled the first 100 cameras. They could have fixed this problem 1000 cameras ago and chose not to. RED takes a credit for doing the right thing early and often. Phantom power is defective and clearly should be a warranty repair. If it doesn't impact many people then just the people who care will send their camera back and that won't burden RED at all. Or people really do care, in which case RED should fix it because people really do care.

Either way there should be an opportunity to send the camera in to get 48v working as advertised. (And yes, clean 48v phantom power was advertised as part of what this camera was intended to include. It was never a "we hope we can do it" feature like 120FPS at 2K)

[Steve Sherrick]

If Sony shipped the EX1 and the phantom power acts like it does on RED every EX1 would have been shipped back and Sony would have repaired them. That's just a fact. JVC took back thousands of HD-100's to fix the SSE issue. Did that cost JVC a fortune? Yeah, but they took care of their customers.

RED knew about this problem before they recalled the first 100 cameras. They could have fixed this problem 1000 cameras ago and chose not to. RED takes a credit for doing the right thing early and often. Phantom power is defective and clearly should be a warranty repair. If it doesn't impact many people then just the people who care will send their camera back and that won't burden RED at all. Or people really do care, in which case RED should fix it because people really do care.

Either way there should be an opportunity to send the camera in to get 48v working as advertised. (And yes, clean 48v phantom power was advertised as part of what this camera was intended to include. It was never a "we hope we can do it" feature like 120FPS at 2K)
Fair enough. But we do need an official statement that the hardware is in fact faulty and that it would need to be replaced in order to get clean power. Then they would need to decide on how to proceed with fixing it. It won't be easy because Red is a small company, and it also won't be easy from red owners perspective either because it could mean taking the camera out of commission for a little while. But until we have the official word, I want to reserve judgement here.

I also think comparing to other cameras is a natural thing to do, but then it's easy to counter with things like, yeah but look at how bad the Sony PD-150's audio was and to a certain extent the 170 wasn't that great either. Either way, it is fair to ask that we get what was advertised. I have no argument there. It really comes down to clarifying exactly what the problem is, and then determining a course of action. If there is something in the firmware that is still not quite right yet and they are tweaking that to make it right, that's a whole lot different than determining that the hardware is bad and it will never improve.

I'm sure we will know in due time.

[Andrew M.]

Fair enough. But we do need an official statement that the hardware is in fact faulty and that it would need to be replaced in order to get clean power. Then they would need to decide on how to proceed with fixing it. It won't be easy because Red is a small company, and it also won't be easy from red owners perspective either because it could mean taking the camera out of commission for a little while. But until we have the official word, I want to reserve judgement here.


Hardware is not faulty, if you press for it they will just remove phantom power from the list of features.

Also current limiting on the output is just the factory option.
RED has clear specs that you should not take more then so much on the power outputs and if you take 1/100 of the amp more and you blew up something it is your fault.
To fix the phantom power deficiency by replacing 2000 boards is out of question.
Maybe newer boards are already fixed.
One way to fix it in firmware only, is to add the hiss noise inverted to all the other channels.
I did try it and it works great. It could be done in the camera when they create the QT proxy.

The good thing about adding inverted noise to all channels is that it cleans the background noise of the internal amplifier as well. It is post clip action so it will not take real time CPU cycle away from image/video processing.
It is done when QT proxies are created after you stop camera recording.
It may not work on all versions of the audio boards since all 4 channels have to have very similar amplifiers characteristics on it. Any difference and it will not work as well. I am lucky since my camera has almost identical 4 channels on it.

The best if RED will come up with phantom power cable that you could plug in to the AUX power jack at the back of the camera. This will enable you to use all 4 channels and have phantom power supplied to all your mikes.

[Joel Kaye]

Hardware is not faulty


If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.

[James Brundige]

If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.

Great suggestion. Might also have to go with redesigned audio board. Not a big or expensive component.

It seems like Red is focused on the big scoop - replacing 35mm film. With the new sensor anouncement, they are well on the way. It's sexier and more fun to be leading an image revolution. I just hope that once build 16 is in production release, they will put some resources into fixing the awful audio section. As I have said before, there's a huge market for EFP, maybe larger than the Hollywood wannabees for whom Red is the Holy Grail.

I love my Red and will keep it in the arsenal for years to come. I just want the sound to work as well as every other camera that is out there today.

[Andrew M.]

If the board design wasn't screwed up in camera we'd not have MiniXlR cables with resistors. It's just common sense that stuff should be in camera and people should be able to whip up their own cables using standard wiring.

They should build a box ala ET that converts MiniXLR to XLR and has phantom power on board and sell that for $100 or so. That's a happy medium solution. No recall and they cover their costs but it's not a profit center.

I understand this but maybe phantom power and surge protection on the interfaces are on the most usual professional cameras as a standard but RED is not a usual camera.

For my job the mini xlr are actually much better than large one and the box a la ET is out of question.
The connectors they have chosen are the best for my job, they couldn't pick it better.

I am confident that once the image processing is refined they will catch up with the second priority items as well. I agree with James, the audio/interface board is probably the least expensive out of all other ones in there but to replace 2000 of them is kind of expensive.

Adding extra features on it, say audio pods, single hd-sdi 4:4:4 or 12 bit HDMI out at 1080p calling it board v2.0 and charging owners of audio board v 1.01, 50% for upgrade, is the nice way out.

This is a common practice in the telecom industry.
If they screw up something, they fix it a bit in v1.01 and then they fix all the problems in v2.0 and charge for it 3K. However for existing owners of v1.01 they sale it on cost at $1.5K etc.

Mean time there are few ways around all this.

[Teddy Hallaron]

I just got back from working on "The Widow's Might" with James Burgess. I bought the special Red adaptor cables from Trew Audio with the 1k resistor. We did tests with 0db tone out of my mixer at +4 line level into my Fostex PD4 DAT. Set the mixer 0 tone to land at -12 on the DAT as a digital reference tone. I pass through my DAT to utilize the digital metering ballistics and the additional limiter, that way when I'm recording single system to the camera only I am still confident of my levels. Using the new resistor loaded cables I attach my breakaway XLR to the camera with strain relief bungee cinch cords. The line up tone ends up about four ticks below the reference line on the RED. I only use LINE LEVEL input. We tested the recorded signal and it lined up perfectly on the FCP at minus 12 digital. I tend to print hot (a habit from the old Nagra days) I had the dialogue living up around minus 12 with no problems, everything sounded rich and fat. So we were confident with the new resistor loaded cables. I also pay special attention to the return level so it exactly matches my mixer only levels, we used the 0 level on the headphone output, you may have to play with the level to get an exact match. Just pay attention to all the rules of good gain structure and use good equipment. Good sound doesn't happen by itself - just like good picture.

[Martijn Lembeck]

Others have a different experience. With line level inputs the performance is at least as good as an F900 or a Varicam.

I agree.... line level input is just fine. I've done alot of shooting going line in. When we just got the Red we even shot with a fostex harddiskrecorder on the side just in case. But ended up using the audio from the camera which is just fine for 95% of the time. But if you want the best audio .. you better skip 48kHz. The Red's mic pre's however are pretty crappy... and I won't even touch Red's phantom:ohmy: .

[Steve Sherrick]

I agree.... line level input is just fine. I've done alot of shooting going line in. When we just got the Red we even shot with a fostex harddiskrecorder on the side just in case. But ended up using the audio from the camera which is just fine for 95% of the time. But if you want the best audio .. you better skip 48kHz. The Red's mic pre's however are pretty crappy... and I won't even touch Red's phantom:ohmy: .

Can you clarify your statement about 48khz?

[Craig Meadows]

Once we added a Sound Devices 302 mixer and fed our RED line level our audio improved greatly, a world of difference over feeding the mics directly in to the RED. While this camera can certainly be run bare-bones, it really takes quite a bit of tried-and-trued professional accessories to really put together a first-class production package. Lenses, matte-boxes, filters, sturdier heads/tripods, monitors, cables, etc. Guess you gotta pay to play but, it sure is getting expensive - lol.

P.S. Elizabeth call me, I stay busy and don't mind being bugged, particularly by a fellow RED enthusiast.

[Joel Kaye]

Can you run mic or line level into RED with external phantom power and no resistors in the cable? Or are resistors required on all RED miniXLR connections?

[Russ Fill]

Heres a little problem or not I ran in to today. When we set the camera up to mic in everything runs fine. When I set the camera to line in the tone we feed out of the mixer at 0 doesnt move the audio meters on the camera above the middle dotted line. Is this normal or am I missing something. Is it possible to zero the tone that is at zero on the mixer to 0 on the camera???? Is there some AGC on the camera when set to line in???

ON line or mic set up, the audio sounds fine just cant find an explanation for not being able to zero tone to the camera in line set up. Yes yes I changed all the levels on the camera audio channels to try to change the level. To no avail.

Build 16 up graded today. didn't check as close when I was on build 15.

Also have the biggest hisssssss when using the 48v to power a 48v mic through the camera. Almost to the point of not even being able to use it as a scratch.

[Caleb Heymann]

I've also had the overpowering hiss while recording on build 16 using phantom power. Was just for reference, but basically useless quality.

[Teddy Hallaron]

A hint for you T powered guys. Just get a PSC 48p to 12v T barrel adaptor. Its about 2 1/2 inches long and perfectly translates 48 phantom to T power. (which was developed to work with Nagras) Its totally passive - no batteries - no muss - no fuss. hint #2 pick up a used T powered 416 for around $500 and a $40 dollar PSC barrel and you're in business.

[Joel Kaye]

A hint for you T powered guys. Just get a PSC 48p to 12v T barrel adaptor. Its about 2 1/2 inches long and perfectly translates 48 phantom to T power. (which was developed to work with Nagras) Its totally passive - no batteries - no muss - no fuss. hint #2 pick up a used T powered 416 for around $500 and a $40 dollar PSC barrel and you're in business.

With this setup you still need phantom power to drive the Mic, right? I actually have a T powered 416 and a 48v to T adapter - but that doesn't help me with RED's 48v hiss. The mic itself has been great and used on many projects.

I finally rigged a little breakout box that converts miniXLR to XLR and adds 2 channels of phantom power, plus a Y adapter so I can capture one Mic to 2 tracks at different level settings. I'm powering it from RED's aux power. Kinda cool. Still need to do some good noise tests to make sure it's quiet enough.

If I could avoid the breakout box with a small inline barrel adapter that provided 48V or T Power then that might be better. I just couldn't find that product.

[Joseph Ward]

Stupid question I know but..

If its a hardware problem?
Wouldn't it be possible for Red to just replace bad audio hardware for existing owners and start making new Red Ones with new improved ones?

Who's laughing now!:bleh:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17565

Red is :sorcerer:

[Ramesh Jai]

I'm totally not a sound guy. My question is simple and hopefully I will get a simple answer. When does one use the 'Microphone' and when the 'Line' input? (You see my level of ignorance regarding sound?)

At the moment does the microphone have to be battery operated? Can anyone tell me the settings on the RED One to use to get decent audio using just a microphone (no external recording devices).

Thank you kind sirs.

[ATF]

Heya,

Anytime you have a microphone, you want to select the channel (port) it's plugged into and click it on. On the right side, it should be set to microphone.

If you have a microphone without a battery, you will want to go back a menu from Rec Enable, and select the 48v setting for the particular channel (port) you have the microphone plugged into.

If you have a double AA or similar battery (depending on the mic), leave this setting off.

If you were plugging in a direct line from a mixer or other similar device, you would select "line" for the channel (port) you are plugged into and leave the 48v selection off.

Hope this helps,

ATF

[Ramesh Jai]

Heya,

Anytime you have a microphone, you want to select the channel (port) it's plugged into and click it on. On the right side, it should be set to microphone.

If you have a microphone without a battery, you will want to go back a menu from Rec Enable, and select the 48v setting for the particular channel (port) you have the microphone plugged into.

If you have a double AA or similar battery (depending on the mic), leave this setting off.

If you were plugging in a direct line from a mixer or other similar device, you would select "line" for the channel (port) you are plugged into and leave the 48v selection off.

Hope this helps,

ATF
Oh yes it helped a lot. Thanks for keeping it simple.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I am recording very nice audio with old available red audio ports . it is quite good .i will post sample soon.

[Chosei Funahara]

I had issue on build 15, but build 16 solved all my audio problem (i had high pitch hiss on build 15).

[ericyoung]

I'm totally not a sound guy. My question is simple and hopefully I will get a simple answer. When does one use the 'Microphone' and when the 'Line' input? (You see my level of ignorance regarding sound?)

At the moment does the microphone have to be battery operated? Can anyone tell me the settings on the RED One to use to get decent audio using just a microphone (no external recording devices).

Thank you kind sirs.

ATF's answer is correct, except that the 48V option on the Red is currently introduces lots of noise on any audio channel it is turned on. This will be fixed in a forthcoming board upgrade, but is currently unuseable, so you should either use battery operated mics or the line option for clean sound for now.

There is one further option which is to derive the 48V from one of the 4 audio inputs which you are NOT using for sound! But this involves making up some cables. See the thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13815&highlight=phantom+channel

[Joseph Ward]

Is there going to be an 1-Bit Audio recording in the new boards or is that a firmware/software question?:mellow:

[Stuart English]

Is there going to be an 1-Bit Audio recording in the new boards

No, its still a 24-bit recording system.

[Joseph Ward]

Any idea when Audio specs will be out?

[Stuart English]

Any idea when Audio specs will be out?

What specs would you like? :red_bandana:

[Joseph Ward]

Everything. What are the differences from the old and new board? Its 24bit/48kHz, 24/96, 24/48? Digital/Analog, new i/Pins? Whatever you can say or when will you guys release the date for specs? Thank you.:biggrin:

[Stuart English]

What are the differences from the old and new board? Its 24bit/48kHz, 24/96, 24/48? Digital/Analog, new i/Pins? Whatever you can say or when will you guys release the date for specs?

Its the same overall "spec" ( 24-bit 48 Khz ) but the performance is substantially better as a result of the following -

Clean phantom power

Clean mic pre-amps

Adjusted inputs levels (same as with old board with special cables)

Improved line out and microphone output

[Steve Sherrick]

Stuart, my guess is people want to know some of the specific specs such as signal to noise ratios, and things like this

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/161_1222967153.jpg

[Jason Ing]

Another audio newbie here.

With the new audio upgrade, can I use (get away with) pro mics and cables plugged directly into Red and get a sound quality good enough for a feature "indie" movie or do I still need a field mixer like sound devices 302 or 442?

[Stuart English]

With the new audio upgrade, can I use pro mics and cables plugged directly into Red and get a sound quality good enough for a feature "indie" movie

Yes, for sure.

[Jason Ing]

awesome! :)

RED! RED! RED! RED! RED!

[Joseph Ward]

Thank you Stuart! You have been very helpful in answering my questions as soon as possible. Thank you again!

[farroutpro]

Another audio newbie here.

With the new audio upgrade, can I use (get away with) pro mics and cables plugged directly into Red and get a sound quality good enough for a feature "indie" movie or do I still need a field mixer like sound devices 302 or 442?

Until professional sound mixers and post production editors weigh in on the new hardware and firmware revisions you should treat all shoots as sync sound shoots

[farroutpro]

Its the same overall "spec" ( 24-bit 48 Khz ) but the performance is substantially better as a result of the following -

Clean phantom power

Clean mic pre-amps

Adjusted inputs levels (same as with old board with special cables)

Improved line out and microphone output

You say that the camera is still the same overall spec... but several 3rd party tests have show that the RED does not record in full 24bit and that it is less the 16bit when analyzed through any pro audio programs, including ProTools v7.4, of which I have sat in on.

I also spoke with a editor tonight at Sony who has some footage coming tomorrow from a current spec RED and the tests they received earlier in the week from the same unit matched pre upgrade audio that they had on the sever. This project is sync sound and they have no desire to use the mono mix camera audio for anything but scratch track for rushes. I was also told that the on camera audio sync seems to still be off +/- 2 or 3 frames.

[Joel Kaye]

This project is sync sound and they have no desire to use the mono mix camera audio for anything but scratch track for rushes. I was also told that the on camera audio sync seems to still be off +/- 2 or 3 frames.

I don't know what they're doing but I just shot a feature with all audio recorded on RED with external phantom power using microphone in levels. It sounds better than my HD-100 or HVX-200 ever did. I've never seen any out of sync frames though I haven't shot any very long takes.

That's not to say people who already have $10k in dual system sound gear and are used to that workflow won't prefer to work that way. But anyone who's used to recording sound in camera and likes that workflow should find RED to be the cleanest camera they've recorded into.

[nacamera]

We seem to be experiencing a rare audio problem. Red has been notifies and is working on. Any ideas would be appreciated as the crew is about 1000 miles from me, so have to do this by remote control.
Here's the situation:
2 cameras--latest version of Build 16 on both recording to Red Hard Drives, both shooting the same interview.
Audio is going through a mixer and then into both cameras via Red mini-XLR adapters--line level.
Playing a clip back through the camera plays picture and audio fine on both cameras.
Going into RedAlert or RedCine the datatech can't get ANY audio to play from the QT proxies on one of the cameras.
Trashing the proxies, and trying to recreate them through RedAlert doesn't work either.
Audio on QT Proxies on the other camera are fine.
This obviously isn't a "They're F*&ked" situation as there is audio, but it is making everyone a bit nervous.
The last thing they are going to try (at end of day) is do a complete re-install of the firmware.)
Any other thoughts?
Thanks a lot!

[IVfilms]

I have a loud electronic hum from any channel of audio that is switched on, even if a mic is connected or not. I'm using a mic with it's own power, on build 16 and the hum is VERY loud. what is going on. I'm in the middle of a feature shoot. HELP.

[Stuart English]

several 3rd party tests have show that the RED does not record in full 24bit and that it is less the 16bit when analyzed through any pro audio programs..

I was also told that the on camera audio sync seems to still be off +/- 2 or 3 frames.

With all due respect to third party tests, but the RED ONE does record at 24-bit depth.

And audio / video to timecode sync is within +/- 1 frame, usually 0.


Shooting sound on the RED ONE from microphone level inputs has had its issues - mainly with the pre-amp noise floor and phantom power - hence some "16-bit equivalent performance" comments - but this is addressed by the new board.

As always do your own tests..... its your project.

[halfmac]

Thanks for your Red Audio comment. We experienced the same issue with a Sony phantom shotgun [NV1]. Had low audio and hissy noise as well. A Sennheiser G2 wireless [self-powered] was also tried and was initially poor. However, when we ramped up the output of the Senn receiver to +12, and the Red to +47db, we got good levels and no apparent hiss in the headphones. Having to ramp the system to the max is not certainly a confidence builder but we downloaded the file into FCP and the playback sounded fine.

We then hooked the Sony up to a Shure M267 mixer and tried the MIC output fed into the Red. We sent 0db tone to the camera and, at +50db the tone pegged at yellow on the Red audio meter. We then plugged the shotgun into the mixer and the sound was excellent.

We then set the output of the mixer to LINE and with 0db tone feeding from the mixer we then adjusted the Red to +54db [max] and the signal was still a little lower than with the MIC output from the mixer.

We also noted that the level readings on the mixer were lower than the reading on the Red for the same signal. We got the two to match when we set the Red to +40db.

So it looks like Red wants you to run at +40db or so to register a normal signal. Note: our Red is build #16.

If people have an investment in phantom powered mics it looks to us like all roads with Red lead to a mini field mixer.

[Stuart English]

We seem to be experiencing a rare audio problem.

Audio is going through a mixer and then into both cameras via Red mini-XLR adapters--line level. Playing a clip back through the camera plays picture and audio fine on both cameras. Going into RedAlert or RedCine the datatech can't get ANY audio to play from the QT proxies on one of the cameras.

Commented elsewhere on this, its possible the mixer or the input cables are phase inverting the audio. If they are, you wouldn't notice that on the camera PPM meters, or when listening to the camera recorded sound via headphones.

Taking the recording to QT Player, if one of the signal's phases are out, it will cancel, so any audio level adjustment (which affects both channels) will have no apparent effect.

You could check your input phase setup by recording the same line signal to channels 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. Then put the HEADPHONE output as QUAD MIX. Then you should either hear a louder signal or none in the headphones.

[nacamera]

Commented elsewhere on this, its possible the mixer or the input cables are phase inverting the audio. If they are, you wouldn't notice that on the camera PPM meters, or when listening to the camera recorded sound via headphones.

Taking the recording to QT Player, if one of the signal's phases are out, it will cancel, so any audio level adjustment (which affects both channels) will have no apparent effect.

You could check your input phase setup by recording the same line signal to channels 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. Then put the HEADPHONE output as QUAD MIX. Then you should either hear a louder signal or none in the headphones.
Stuart,
After more testing, that is exactly what was happening. Unfortunately it was an out of state production, with an audio guy we'll never see again, so can't do any further testing, but everything is pointing to the fact that something was up with his equipment/work practices that were causing this issue.