On-site duplication

[Martin Weiss]

I know that there are a couple of people working on Red-optimized solutions for backing up CF cards on set, but as of now it seems that most people rely on some system with a lap top and some external harddisks.

While surfing, I came across a thing called the OmniDupe, a

Portable CompactFlash, MicroDrive, SATA and PATA Hard Drive Cloning Device
1111 USD, available now. (link (http://store.storageheaven.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=46))

Would this do the trick?


Features
Data transfer rate — Speeds may exceed 1.8 GB/min.
Portable — One of the smallest single target devices on the market.
CompactFlash & hard drive duplication — Single-target, drive-to-drive duplicator for CF, MD, PATA (IDE, UDMA), & SATA drives. (2.5", 1.8" hard drives require adapter).
Brand unimportant — Hard drive Master & target drives can be different sizes, brands, & models.
Unit integrity check — Automatically checks to see if there are any problems between the master and target drives before the hdd duplication process.
Clones any operating system — 100% sector-by-sector copying for all operating systems. Mirror cloning recommended for all proprietary OS along with the following systems- (e.g. Mac, Linux, Sun, OS6)
Target drive structures — Adjusts all necessary target drive structures to ensure target will boot (e.g. Windows 95/98/ME/SE/NT/2000/XP).
Free lifetime software updates & phone technical support — Free lifetime software updates & Phone Technical Support.
LBA/large cylinder/head translation — Determine partition table head translation depending on BIOS type of target PC.
One-year standard warranty — The system comes complete with a one year parts and labor warranty. An extended warranty provides 2 years of protection.
CleverCopy technology — The system will automatically scale DOS, FAT16/32, & NTFS file systems.
Compaq diagnostics — Supports Compaq diagnostics partition
CloneCard™ Pro (optional) — This is a PCMCIA adapter that provides a fast connection between a notebook PC and the OmniDupe1CF.

The advertised transfer rate is almost twice as fast as the Nexto (if this can indeed be verified)

Also since harddisks are maybe not the idea storage format, could it be an idea to dump the Red CF cards onto cheaper, slower, higher capacity CF cards?

[ayarbro]

That looks pretty good. Get two of these for a two to 4 camera show and I think you might be set. The only nice thing about having the laptop is getting answers quick when you have a network connection.

[Rainer Fritz]

so if you work with this cloning devices you have only one single copy of your footage right? how do you verify your footage? this devices seems to me not a professional solution....

[Jonas Nyström]

so if you work with this cloning devices you have only one single copy of your footage right? how do you verify your footage? this devices seems to me not a professional solution....

My first thought as well.

[Gunleik Groven]

I currently clone everything to a RAID1 or 5 on set, depending on the securitylevel demanded. Every file is also seen through and set up according to shot for the client or myself.

Even if that makes the on-set experience a bit more expensive, it makes the post-workflow so much more efficient, that the extra money spent on set is paid back multifold in post + it gives the certainty of haveing a wrap, or not...

I can hardly see a situation where I would swap that level of security for something lesser.

But - this has become much more clear after receiving and working with the cam.

Gunleik

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I think a couple of Nexto's (in case one f* up) and then on a laptop is a good deal for onset backup.

NEXTO eXtreme ND2700 (http://www.nextodi.com/en/) (from 60Gb to 320Gb, new, faster than the Nexto Ultra)...

Anyone got an idea on how to put a automated function on a Nexto, like a "checksum" sort of automatic verification? That would be great! Maybe we could ask Nexto to make a special Nexto Red backup unit... 4000 cams sold, there could be a great niche market there...

[Hans von Sonntag]

I shoot both, either studio or remote locations. I use CF cards only. If I need longer runtimes I will rent a redraid. CF Cards are much more reliable.

I have 20 CF cards, that's enough for one day without the need to reformat and reusing them.
When full the cards gets into a Nexto 2525 and will be backuped. This is a redundancy backup since I don't erase the Cf cards on set. If the Nexto fails there is always the original CF card for backup. Therefore the verifying capabilities are not that important.

Back in the studio all data gets copied from the Nexto 2525 to LTO and on a SAN Raid in the production folder for processing and editing. The footage must be reviewed and checked.

Now the CF cards get reformatted and the Nexto erased an off you go again.

If we are on a longer shoot on a remote location we use 2 or more firewire disks for storage; again redundancy is key. Reviewing the footage by eye is much better than believing in copy-apps, IMO.

Hans

[Gunleik Groven]

Reviewing the footage by eye is much better than believing in copy-apps, IMO.

Hans

Agreed!

Gunleik

[Martin Weiss]

Hmm... if redundancy if the problem, couldn't one just copy twice to different HDDs?

Or how about this baby here: http://www.storageheaven.com/products/DuplicationHardDrive/omniclone10.asp

Ideal would be a Box like the Nexto that would internally have a Raid-1 or -5, and would allow to plug in an external HDD/SDD, which would make an extra back-up.

[Denis Buhot]

so if you work with this cloning devices you have only one single copy of your footage right? ....

I read about double, triple backup... I tend to work in remote locations and I have to consider weight... Carrying a laptop plus drives is nothing I think about, really. I understand relying on a red drive implies SOME risk...But would you think that risk is substantially higher than a small-format tape failure (hdv, for instance) ?

[Hans von Sonntag]

I read about double, triple backup... I tend to work in remote locations and I have to consider weight... Carrying a laptop plus drives is nothing I think about, really. I understand relying on a red drive implies SOME risk...But would you think that risk is substantially higher than a small-format tape failure (hdv, for instance) ?

I cannot say how much safer tapes are but a lot. Redraid is striped as Raid0 for necessary performance. If one disk brakes all data will be lost. This doubles the risk. If the disks would be mirrored (Raid1) this would be a huge step into failure safety but lowers performance considerably.

How many tapes broke and how many HD died in laptops? Tape-failure can be fixed easily. Extracting data from a broken Raid is hardcore and when possible very expensive.

I'm sure Redraid is well made and does make sense in certain applications but due to its components (harddisks) it cannot deliver the failure-safety convetional tape or CF-cards do.

Hans

[Martin Weiss]

Redraid is striped as Raid0 for necessary performance. (...) If the disks would be mirrored (Raid1) this would be a huge step into failure safety but lowers performance considerably.

Wouldn't it then be possible to have 4 drives (in rubber coating) for the RedDrive 2 - 2 pairs of Raid0, put together as a Raid1? That would of course double the size and power requirements, but lower the chances of harddrive failure considerably.

Or, coming to think of it, why not have the option to have both CF and the RedRaid installed. During recording, all data is written to the CF card. When in standby mode, all data is copied to the RedDrive (configured as Raid1), thus we'd have 3 copies on the camera, and the user/operator would not have to do anything.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hmm... if redundancy if the problem, couldn't one just copy twice to different HDDs?

Or how about this baby here: http://www.storageheaven.com/products/DuplicationHardDrive/omniclone10.asp

Ideal would be a Box like the Nexto that would internally have a Raid-1 or -5, and would allow to plug in an external HDD/SDD, which would make an extra back-up.

You don't need a Nexto-like device with Raid1/5 if you don't delete the CFs or Redraids on set and copy your stuff on a disk/laptop or preferable a Nexto. Redundancy is key. To save budget on recording media and beeing forced to either making multiple backups on set or risking data loss is the wrong way. You need either min. 20 CF cards or at least two Redraids.

IMHO, in remote locations a RAID5 tower is too bulky. Also RAID5 towers are not build for carrying around and need AC. They are electronic devices for IT but no film-grade equipment for the field.

Additionally if your RAID5 fails it takes long to rebuild it. A solution are hardware Raids with hotspares but they are even more bulky.

Off-the-shelf firewire disks are cheap, and reliable enough if you got at least two of them carring all the footage on two different locations (e.g. one carries the producer, the other one the AC/DIT).

You do need a laptop for remote locations because reviewing dailies back in the hotel is vital. If you don't see the errors you cannot address them.

I believe in keeping things simple.

Hans

[Hans von Sonntag]

Or, coming to think of it, why not have the option to have both CF and the RedRaid installed. During recording, all data is written to the CF card. When in standby mode, all data is copied to the RedDrive (configured as Raid1), thus we'd have 3 copies on the camera, and the user/operator would not have to do anything.

Martin,

This has been discussed a year or so. Actually, a Nexto is exactly doing this except you have to unplug the CF and stick into the Nexto. The advantage: you don't have to wait until the CF card is offloaded to the Redraid and keep shooting with a new card. Additionally you don't have to carry the Redraid on board. As you know the camera is a lot but not light.

Hans

[amrrahmy]

i think a laptop in the heart of ur set is essential, for all the pre shoot setup and verifications,and the insurance of the captured video and sound to the optimal possible quality. u cant do with out it, even if u try dragging around less efficient monitors of every kind, one laptop would do everything better.

and therefore is the best way to backup ur negative, since u'll be viewing the captured material on it anyway. just makes sense to have one laptop do all the monitoring and backup of ur files.

[amrrahmy]

i think 1TB sata is cool enough, but a 300GB san or raid drive is better if u can afford allot of them

[Hans von Sonntag]

i think a laptop in the heart of ur set is essential, for all the pre shoot setup and verifications,and the insurance of the captured video and sound to the optimal possible quality. u cant do with out it, even if u try dragging around less efficient monitors of every kind, one laptop would do everything better.

and therefore is the best way to backup ur negative, since u'll be viewing the captured material on it anyway. just makes sense to have one laptop do all the monitoring and backup of ur files.

You cannot put a laptop in your pocket; a Nexto you can while keep shooting.

Hans

[amrrahmy]

actually u can, connect the camera to a laptop(u can put the laptop as far as u want), and use a phone (like iphone) to remotely control the laptop.(any phone with a browser works)

[amrrahmy]

also it's better cause u wont touch or connect anything from take to take.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Sounds like an easy setup.

Hans

[amrrahmy]

only if u can use a one button remote.

[amrrahmy]

also removing the lcd and evf, by connecting the laptop, will make a lighter smaller camera with a remote monitor(other than the laptop one).

[Chris Swartz]

If you desire redundancy and speed then my solution is pretty good if I say so myself.

www.digitalmonolith.com

Chris

BTW you are right about raid 5 rebuild times, they are quite long, but you can still use the raid while it's rebuilding, oh and your data is still there. That's a good thing.

[Hans von Sonntag]

If you desire redundancy and speed then my solution is pretty good if I say so myself.

www.digitalmonolith.com

Chris

BTW you are right about raid 5 rebuild times, they are quite long, but you can still use the raid while it's rebuilding, oh and your data is still there. That's a good thing.

Seems to be a pretty solid solution for a full crew and if AC is available.

Hans

[Martin Weiss]

¿Quanta costa?

(And your site does not work on the iPhone :) )

[Allan Chesher]

AC should not be an issue but if for some reason there is not power then the laptop is perfect for transferring your data for archiving and transporting to Editorial/DI/Post.

I completely agree that you should have at least 2 backups minimum. Especially if you have limited media. one on a RAID1 for onset storage and another for transport (Firewire drive - Gaid mini's are great).

For the nothing men i had 4 cf cards per camera(2), 8 total, shooting 30-40 mags per camera (cf cards suck if your shooting 2-3min takes), 380gig as the biggest day but averaging an easy 100gig/day per camera.

My advice is make copies and check them. And maybe even check that last good take that takes 5 hrs to setup and 5 mins to break down.