Interesting developments over at Silicon Imaging

[Joe Carney]

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/News/PR_04_12_07_PS_Technik.html

Nice to see things heating up. It's going to be an interesting year.

[Holosynthetic]

Their software seems to only work on Windows...not a good move.

[David Newman]

Software is in beta on the Mac. Likely finish that up so after the NAB craziness.

[Jaime Vallés]

Looks really nice. I look forward to seeing footage from it on the big screen!

[Erik Rangel]

I really like editing cineform in premiere. It's easy and real time!
The Si2k body looks waaaay better than it did last year at NAB and it's cool that they've added a 35mm adapter for it, but $4000? yeowtch.

[Anders Holck]

Interesting:

In addition, a new family of 35mm Cinema Prime Lenses, based on the Zeiss ZF series optics, with precision focus gears and distance markings will be offered with the 2K-35™, including 25 mm, 35mm, 50mm and 85mm models.

Cinema Primes Lenses at $2,200 each, with availability in early 3Q’07.

[Tom Lowe]

What is the chip size on the camera? Is this basically a built-in "35mm adapter"?... and if so, will there be loss of light and softening, as with other adapters used commonly with the HVX, etc?

[Joel Kaye]

Pricing for the SI-2K™ Digital Cinema Camera with PL-mount is $23,500 or with a 2K-B4-Mount is $24,500, with a NAB promotional discount of $2,000. The SI-2K™ is currently available for order with shipment in June.

The 2K-35™ 35mm lens converter is $4,000 and Cinema Primes Lenses at $2,200 each, with availability in early 3Q’07.

The SI-2K™ digital cinema camera series, along with various P+S Technik accessories, will be shown in the joint CineForm and Silicon Imaging booth, SL7826.

I don't see how that's going to compete with RED really. If the P+S adapter has optics in it then I don't think it makes sense to go that way over RED. Unless I'm missing something I think it's going to be a loser.

Now the Primes for $2200 each might sell to RED users if they are PL Mount.

[Anders Holck]

The chip is a 2/3" Altasens CMOS sensor

[PaulClements]

The primes are just Zeiss' still lenses converted for cine use. It will be interesting to see what that conversion entails, at that price I'd expect something good for the money.

[Anders Holck]

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/News/images/SI-2K_body_sm.jpg

Looking at the new "German redesign" of the body, a few observations:

- Sony VCT-14 Quick release system.

- Small pin at the film plane to facilitate a tape measure.

- Built in 15mm rods.

- rotating Mount for handles.

- Gold mount on the back, mounted horizontally on the side. (Battery is pushed in from the top.)

- Boy, that 2/3" sensor really looks small in that PL mount....

- a grill on the side. Looks like a fan is included.

Anyways a vast design improvement from their last shown model:

http://www.holckowen.com/si.png

The new design bears quite a resemblance to another P+S designed body, the weisscam:
http://www.holckowen.com/si2.png

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i really dont get it?
so either way there is some sort of a lens adapter involved whether its built in or out... so there will be moving parts (doubt they go with a static focus screen) thats my first gripe. unless there is already a mechanical shutter then NM cuz it already had movement..

i dont know im confused..

also (not that i care cuz im a die hard RED USER)
whats the cost..

one more thing..
converted zeiss still 35mm's?
what exactly do they do? is there a technique to stop the mad breathing in stills?

[jaadgy akanni]

[IMG]
Anyways a vast design improvement from their last shown model:


I don't know, I'm very sensitive, susceptible if you will, to the physical appearance of the tools I use and I draw inspiration from that. I know that at least for me, this Honda-portable-battery looking thing wouldn't be too inspirational. Now, the RED's design, on the other hand, makes me believe I can rule the world.

[Anders Holck]

i really dont get it?
so either way there is some sort of a lens adapter involved whether its built in or out... so there will be moving parts (doubt they go with a static focus screen) thats my first gripe. unless there is already a mechanical shutter then NM cuz it already had movement..


From the press release:
"the 2K-35™ format converter for use of 35mm optics to achieve increase depth of field control"

That makes it clear that it's a "matte screen" adapter. Probably a a redesign of P+S's Pro35 adapter, but without the expensive B4 correction optics.
The 2K-35™ is only $4,000, while the Pro35 $ 27,000.....still a bit puzzleling.

[David Newman]

2/3" 1080P or closer to S16 in 2048x1152 modes, via B4 lenses or Super16 glass, I think going to be the most common acquisition format with this camera. S16 being its sweet spot. The 35mm adaptor is interesting, but if that is going to be your primary way to shoot you would likely be looking at a Red One.

[PaulClements]

one more thing..
converted zeiss still 35mm's?
what exactly do they do? is there a technique to stop the mad breathing in stills?

They will likely rehouse the lenses with built in gearing and longer focus throw and make the aperture ring spin rather than click into position. I very much doubt that breathing will be a consideration, breathing is not such a big issue with some of these modern lenses, as Evin's tests have shown.

However, I just did a search on eBay and you can buy the 25, 35, 50 and 85 for $3000 brand new, at $2200 each that's a markup of $5800 for the rehousing. I'm sure that if you bought whole sets in bulk from Zeiss you could undoubtedly get them cheaper still so perhaps an even greater markup.

[Anders Holck]

Ok, here is some info on the lenses:
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-lensset.php
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/images/Silicon%20Imaging/ps_lens_serie.jpg

Still Nikon mount though

[Jaime Vallés]

So, they're Nikon mount? I'd rather spend the cash on regular Nikons and a good follow-focus with gears to compensate for the short focus throw. Maybe even use some of the spare cash to hire a focus puller!

[Joe Carney]

what I thought was really interesting is the special b4 mount that will work with lenses designed for 3 chip cameras. Thats where the optics come in. They offer a mount that supprots PL, Nikon F, C and for extra money the B4. Compared to what P+S normally charges, it seems like a good price.

If you look at their other press releases, the new enhanced features with Iradas Speed Grade, including support for real time green/blue screen replacement is pretty cool.

I see room for both RED and SI2K, sort of a 1 2 punch against Sony and Panasonic high priced stuff. They really have come a long way since last year.

[Jim Arthurs]

I don't know, I'm very sensitive, susceptible if you will, to the physical appearance of the tools I use and I draw inspiration from that. I know that at least for me, this Honda-portable-battery looking thing wouldn't be too inspirational. Now, the RED's design, on the other hand, makes me believe I can rule the world.

I actually really like this design... It's got that German engineering thing going that in all honesty feels more like classic camera design to me. Nothing about the RED physical design inspires me (except the superior feature set, of course!).

I suppose it all comes down to personal taste.

I agree with Anders though... that sensor is really wee-looking in that mount.

[Tom Lowe]

I really wish they would have gone with a larger sensor on this camera, even if its max resolution was only 2K. Then you'd gain the native 35mm DOF and a downsampled image of superior quality.

Wouldn't it be possible to build a large sized chip (similar to the RED) but that only outputs half the resolution - at 2k? Would a sensor like that be cheaper to make? Less noise than trying to get 2K out of a 2/3 chip? Faster FPS maybe?

[Jim Arthurs]

Good point Tom, you'd think a 35mm movie sized 2K native sensor would have smokin' low light capacity with those large pixel sites, along with all the other advantages...

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah it seems like a no brainer, but then again I'm not very technical, so maybe there are some issues in trying to do that.

Then again, maybe Sony and these other large digital HD camera manufacturers simply don't realize this is what we all want, or they'd have figured out a way to give it to us by now. Perhaps they are too arrogant and out of touch? Kind of like Marie Antoinette: "Let them eat 2/3" chips"!

I understand that Sony might have a no-compete clause with Panny because of the Genesis, but what's holding back Panasonic, JVC, etc, from serving up some 35mm-sized 1080 or 2K chips?

[Anders Holck]

SI-2k currently uses Altasens imagers.
Altasens has an upcoming 1" 8mp sensor called the ProCamHD2 8472.
Still quite a bit smaller than Red's, but it does do 72 fps at full res and 144 fps at 1080p windowed.

[Stephen Gentle]

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/News/images/SI-2K_body_sm.jpg


That looks really bad imo. I actually like the previous design better, although neither of them look anywhere near as good as RED.

The small sensor is a shame too.

[Moir]

I like the new design - much less "garage cam" than the original. The SI team seem to be making some very good strategic alliances and the 2k should be a terrific camera. I really hope they succeed.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

The 2K-35™ is only $4,000.
i have to be misinterpreting or something... this camera.. the one we see here is $4,000? confused....:whistling:

[Zakaree Sandberg]

yah im an idiot i checked the site its 23 but with a 2 grand discount if u order before apr 30...
but for just 2k and a small sensor.. whats the big hype about?

[Moir]

but for just 2k and a small sensor.. whats the big hype about?

I don't think there has been any hype: in fact, I'd say they've been very low key. It's easy to forget that the SI-2K is priced very competitively compared with currently available cameras. If Red wasn't on the scene, it would probably be getting a great deal more attention.

[Anders Holck]

I really don't think the 2k is aimed at the same target as RED.
The design of the camera seems to be much closer to the Viper/Sony/Panasonic market. More towards tv drama than feature film.

The assets they have now are:
- Cineform RAW. There is a working workflow, using The Cineform adapted Premiere engine for realtime 2k editing. No transcoding needed.
- Mature "look" tools, with their integration with Iridas color corrrection tools.
- Pretty solid body design. Will fit right in next to the Vipers.
- The 2k is actually a "Docking station" for the 2kMini camera. If you want to go really light you can pop out the minicam from the camera body and use that tethered to the body using a RJ45 cable, up to 100m I think.

Having said that, the Images on the website looks pretty soft, a bit noisy and with debayer artifacts on high frequency details:
http://www.holckowen.com/Picture4.png
http://www.holckowen.com/Picture5.png
http://www.holckowen.com/Picture6.png

Dont know if that is the 2k chip or the old 1080...

[Joe Carney]

Yes, even their updated stuff is rehashed old pictures (menu interface....). I guess people stopping by their booth next week will have a better idea.

[chuck colburn]

That looks really bad imo. I actually like the previous design better, although neither of them look anywhere near as good as RED.

The small sensor is a shame too.

I like the design of the hard front lens mount assembly. Reminds me of a 35BL.

[Sanjin Jukic]

one more thing..
converted zeiss still 35mm's?
what exactly do they do? is there a technique to stop the mad breathing in stills?

After RED ONE the still lenses (unconverted) will slowly TAKE OVER expensive cine lenses in digital 4k/2k/HD acquisition. Nikon F and Canon FD mounts are a big part of the RED REVOLUTION in a new cinema digital acquisition.