Post B16 comments here...

[Jannard]

If you have upgraded your RED ONE to B16, this is the place to comment. You can post the good, the bugs and the ugly. We aim to listen and react.

PLEASE don't post a list of new features you want to see in the next build. We are looking for feedback on the features and performance of this build.

I'll start with one. The code has NOT been optimized for speed. It is a bit slow to work with right now. That will be improved soon.

Jim

[Miltos Pilalitos]

While i was trying the timelapse mode i set the SPEED to 1 sec and went out in the night to see how it looks only to discover that my sensor has like a gazilion hot pixels!! Is this normal? i never tried timelapse in build 15.

EDIT: I did black shading twice but the hot pixels remain. Out of the timelapse mode the picture looks great. :-)

[Jarred Land]

Hey Miltos.. Timelapse has a few kinks in it we are working on.. thanks for the report.

[Stuart English]

While i was trying the timelapse mode i set the SPEED to 1 sec and went out in the night to see how it looks only to discover that my sensor has like a gazilion hot pixels!! Is this normal?

Yes, its best to stay away from 1 sec SPEED in timelapse for the moment. Its noted as a bug in the Read Me notes; this is one of two possible outcomes of that bug. It will be fixed in the next Beta Build 16 firmware update.

[Craig Schober]

i'm running the lcd and evf at the same time and when i adjust exposure in relation to my scene, i see a clear change in the "dynamic range" grayscale indicator on the right side but only in the evf. the lcd always shows all shades of gray no matter what i'm seeing or what the evf shows.

btw-the lcd image looks much cleaner. no banding and less noise. great work red team.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

cool...

[Rick Darge]

Not being able to record 4k 16x9 RC36 on the Red 8GB CF

Exposure litmus feature, doesn't work all the time, I was pointing the camera outside and it was clearly blown out, yet the litmus strip had all the boxes lit up

[Ivan G]

I can't seem to get Pre-Record to work. I tried both 10-30 seconds.

[dino g]

We are currently on the set of a mattel toy commercials. we have been shooting with the alpha for three days with excellent results! moreover, the new version of redAlert is a big improvement from the earlier alpha release, great job gentlemen.

[dino g]

you need to hold down the undo button when you hit record for pre-record to work.

undo (shift) record turns pre-record on (yellow timecode), hit record again and tc turns red and your speeding.

[Stuart English]

Not being able to record 4k 16x9 RC36 on the Red 8GB CF

Exposure litmus feature, doesn't work all the time, I was pointing the camera outside and it was clearly blown out, yet the litmus strip had all the boxes lit up

CF issue - that's not a bug, the 8GB CF cards are not fast enough to support that combination of frame rate x resolution x quality.

Exposure Strip - what is your expectation there?

[Thom Steinhoff]

Okay, just loaded it up with EVF and LCD attached but my EVF is dark except for the words "EVF not selected" in the lower left." Buttons seem to work.

I've never seen that before. Can't seem to find a new "Activate EVF" in the menus.

UPDATE: Okay, figured it out. EVF cable wasn't snapped all the way. Wild that the monitor got enough juice and was smart enough to know it wasn't connected all the way. Sorry for the scare--back in business.

[Rick Darge]

CF issue - that's not a bug, the 8GB CF cards are not fast enough to support that combination of frame rate x resolution x quality.

Exposure Strip - what is your expectation there?

I would have expected the top portion of the strips whiter squares to merge and become a single block like it does when I'm underexposing. Stuart, can you explain what I'm looking at?

[Craig Schober]

Okay, just loaded it up with EVF and LCD attached but my EVF is dark except for the words "EVF not selected" in the lower left." Buttons seem to work.

I've never seen that before. Can't seem to find a new "Activate EVF" in the menus.

UPDATE: Okay, figured it out. EVF cable wasn't snapped all the way. Wild that the monitor got enough juice and was smart enough to know it wasn't connected all the way. Sorry for the scare--back in business.

i keep getting that message too. once it wouldn't boot so i unplugged evf and it booted fine so i plugged evf back in and both work.

[Ivan G]

you need to hold down the undo button when you hit record for pre-record to work.

undo (shift) record turns pre-record on (yellow timecode), hit record again and tc turns red and your speeding.

Thanks Kosmos, I'll give it a try!

[Stuart English]

Okay, figured it out. EVF cable wasn't snapped all the way. Wild that the monitor got enough juice and was smart enough to know it wasn't connected all the way. Sorry for the scare--back in business.

Sounds like you had enough of a connection to establish camera to EVF comms, but not to bring the video path up.

[J. Eric Camp]

Comments:

Redspace: thank you
User programable functions : (buttons and dial) thank you
Audio upgrades: thank you
Better response from ISO changes: thank you
New Media menu: thank you

bugs found:
1 time lapse 1sec error
2 When the ABC buttons are assigned to a new map the rear screen still reads with the default mapping. I understand many reasons why, but it will confuse people.


More as I look for it

[Jarred Land]

thanks Frzendreams.

[Joel Kaye]

Possible bug: In Edge Focus Assist mode the RGB Histogram shows different reading than when viewing in color.

[Martin Jäger]

I Just Love The Look Of The New Noisefloor!!!

thousand thanks!!!


martin

[Paris Remillard]

Not really an issue since it doesn't affect the functionality of anything, but REDAlert still says v3.32 ALPHA in the upper left hand corner. Sorry, I know that it's insignificant. Just making an observation.

[Chris Parker]

kosmos, can you elaborate on what is better about build 16 and red alert for day-to-day tasks than build 15 and before? that would be awesome...

[dino g]

sorry, cant do that right now, on set still and it is the end of the day,going through the "shoot 40 %" of the day in the last half hour before wrap" syndrome..looking forward to sitting here for 3 hours off loading.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

It all sounds awesome, just wish I had my camera to try it all....:waaa:

Still patiently waiting...

[Clint Childers]

The hot pixels from the timelapse are caused from the slow shutter speed. 1/12 and slower. I don't know why but just change your shutter speed to 1/12 or faster and the white pixels will disapear. I had this same problem in Build 15.

[Drew Mylrea]

Okay. When I installed the new build 15 before 16, the camera wouldn't boot for a while. Finally got it to start the build 16 upgrade. Then the LCD went off. It's been about 7 minutes and the rear LCD just says Upgrading... I think in a minute or so I'll have to try and shut it down. Bummer. Should I be really concerned? Best course of action?

EDIT: Nothing was happening so I shut it down. Boot up again. Trying the upgrade again.

Hope 16 fixes all these booting wooes I've been having!

EDIT 2: Upgrade complete... booted first time... things are LOOKING GOOD!

[Stuart English]

The hot pixels from the timelapse are caused from the slow shutter speed.

If you are doing extended exposure times - below 1/4 sec - the camera can benefit from a new Black Shading Calibration at that exposure. i.e set the exposure you expect to use in timelapse, then do a Black Shading.

If you do this, remember to repeat the process when you go back to the relatively shorter exposure times.

[Steve Sherrick]

If you are doing extended exposure times - below 1/4 sec - the camera can benefit from a new Black Shading Calibration at that exposure. i.e set the exposure you expect to use in timelapse, then do a Black Shading.

If you do this, remember to repeat the process when you go back to the relatively shorter exposure times.

Interesting, thanks for that tip Stuart

[Brandon Fraley]

Wow! I suspect i was probably doing something wrong before, but I couldn't shoot anything over ASA 320 without tons of noise, and icky vertical blue lines (yes I did the black shade). I just shot using available light from a different room and could see pretty well in 320, then cranked it up to 2000 (again, couldn't shoot 500 in build 15 without disgusting artifacts) and the shot was down right usable!

Amazing! Thank you so much guys!

One thing... I'm intrigued by the new exposure assist, but it's not doing anything for me. Under or over expose, the squares look no different :(

[Poi Boy]

If you are doing extended exposure times - below 1/4 sec - the camera can benefit from a new Black Shading Calibration at that exposure. i.e set the exposure you expect to use in timelapse, then do a Black Shading.

If you do this, remember to repeat the process when you go back to the relatively shorter exposure times.

great tip !!
I remember having to do that with my old digital back.
Aloha
-A

[jbeale]

Apparently, the grey bars are not an exposure assist, they are just a fixed grey "chip chart" to help you set the screen contrast, if I am understanding what Jarred says here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=237692&postcount=7

[Brandon Fraley]

Apparently, the grey bars are not an exposure assist, they are just a fixed grey "chip chart" to help you set the screen contrast, if I am understanding what Jarred says here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=237692&postcount=7

gotcha (damn do rumors moves fast around here lol).

In that case what's the new exposure assist we've been hearing so much about?

[Brian Broz]

B16 looks great!
Re-booting the camera after re-assigning ABC was required to function and display correctly. Not a big deal though.
The customizable key configurations allow much much faster changes and less time with the menus and joystick...which is real nice.

A user assigned key can be set to:
User 1 for focus assist/pixel2pixel zoom
User 2 assigned to false color (works well combined with User 1 simultaneously)
The LCD (top left) button assigned to waveform

[Jarred Land]

That scale lets you visually see what represents white white and black black (and everything inbetween) in terms of monitor lighting conditions ( i.e, when you are in the bright sun) ... sort of like purge bars.. it can help in some situations, but its not something that most of you will want to leave on all the time ( although in the beta build there is no off yet )

[Brandon Fraley]

That scale lets you visually see what represents white white and black black (and everything inbetween) in terms of monitor lighting conditions ( i.e, when you are in the bright sun) ... sort of like purge bars.. it can help in some situations, but its not something that most of you will want to leave on all the time ( although in the beta build there is no off yet )

why would you want to turn them off? it's just empty space on the side of the monitor right?

[SF Geek]

why would you want to turn them off? it's just empty space on the side of the monitor right?

I'm guessing it's less distraction. Brian, is there pixel 2 pixel or is it the 2x zoom we've had in previous builds?

[Brandon Fraley]

appears to be 2x

[Brian Broz]

It appears to be 2x not a full pixel to pixel. But toggling between focus assist, magnify, waveform and false color is really fast !

Not a bug, but I noticed viewing the on-board LCD in RedSpace displays a bit more noise than the Rec709 setting...more of an FYI.
But image viewed in Redspace mode is "brighter" (than Rec709) and seems to more accurately reflect Tstop and Iso settings.

[cinepost35]

If you are doing extended exposure times - below 1/4 sec - the camera can benefit from a new Black Shading Calibration at that exposure. i.e set the exposure you expect to use in timelapse, then do a Black Shading.

If you do this, remember to repeat the process when you go back to the relatively shorter exposure times.

Dose it have any negative affect on the camera to Black balance often if you do these shots frequentley.

[Jannard]

Dose it have any negative affect on the camera to Black balance often if you do these shots frequentley.

No. Only negative is the time it takes to do it.

Jim

[cinepost35]

Thanks......

[C.H.Haskell]

Just loaded 16, 1st thing I noticed is the playback when set to 1080 mode displays 100% green tint via the SDI output, but the RED LCD looks fine. I switched back to 720p playback and the SDI out looked normal and great, green problem goes away.

Wait now I think about it, could be my monitor...Panasonic BT-LH1700W

[Tai Wah Lim]

Just loaded 16, 1st thing I noticed is the playback when set to 1080 mode displays 100% green tint via the SDI output, but the RED LCD looks fine. I switched back to 720p playback and the SDI out looked normal and great, green problem goes away.

Wait now I think about it, could be my monitor...Panasonic BT-LH1700W

Haskell, the LH1700W will go green if set to 1080 although the specs say it can read this signal ie 1080p. Wonder if the LH1700W is not compatible with the signal from Red SDI out.

[Andy Lesniak]

Great work on B16 RED!!!

I setup a simple test scene to shoot with 15 then 16... what a difference!

the scene
http://www.andylesniak.com/red/images/b16.jpg
shot 320asa / 3200 deg using red 18-50 zoom @ 18mm / T3
lighting 1k openface bounced off cieling. nothin fancy.


crop of the blue channel
http://www.andylesniak.com/red/images/compare.jpg

you can grab the fullsize tiffs here.... (right click save as)
Build 15 (http://www.andylesniak.com/red/images/build15.tif) (48meg)
Build 16 (http://www.andylesniak.com/red/images/build16.tif) (48meg)

I haven't done a full shakedown on b16 yet, but love it already, question I have is when variable frame rate is enabled, say you want to shoot at 10 fps you currently can't have a shutter wider than 1/24 is this going to change in the future, shouldn't the shutter be able to go equal to frame rate. ie. 10fps you could do 1/10 ect... ?

oh ya. THANK YOU once again!

[John Allardice]

Great work on B16 RED!!!
question I have is when variable frame rate is enabled, say you want to shoot at 10 fps you currently can't have a shutter wider than 1/24 is this going to change in the future, shouldn't the shutter be able to go equal to frame rate. ie. 10fps you could do 1/10 ect... ?

oh ya. THANK YOU once again!

hey dude.....actually, the shutter should be equal to HALF the fame rate. i.e. 10 fps 1/20th exposure( working on a standard 180 degree shutter)

[Andy Lesniak]

but then you could do 1/10 at 10fps = 360 deg shutter?...

[IAN SUN]

Jim you guys are Gods!

I'm loving RED Space. I have a demo in the morning and should be sleeping but I decided to upgrade instead. Sure glad I did.

[Gary Stone]

alesniak - the build 15.tif link is dead. please repost!!

[Peter Majtan]

Yeap - the build 15 only loads as 18 MB - unreadable...

[Eric MacIver]

Good: Wow... Redspace is so nice... I used to have to first light most shots to get that exact look. Colors are much truer to life right out of the camera now. So much less noise. Blacks look better. Curves in camera are great addition.

Bad: One of the two cameras we loaded up w/ B16 had all its video outputs die (EVF, Monitor and HD-SDI/Preview). Not sure if it's B16 related. Left a message for Shawn Ruggeri.

Also, it seems if RedLine might not be working w/ it. I get Bus Error and Bad Gamma warnings.

Lastly, playback freezes much of the time in 1080p mode.

[Kenn Michael]

RedLine hasn't been updated to work with B16 yet.

[Tobias Straka]

CF issue - that's not a bug, the 8GB CF cards are not fast enough to support that combination of frame rate x resolution x quality.

So my question hab been basically answered (see thread http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15072 - posted before this one came up). But I do get the same error message when I try recording to the drive with REDCODE 36 in 3K (2:1). Here's what I found.

Not working in REDCODE 28:

CF - 3K - 59.94
CF - 4K - 29.97


Not working in REDCODE 36:

CF - 3K - 50.00
CF - 3K - 59.94
CF - 4K - 29.97
Drive - 3K - 59.94


I guess thats this is because of the code not being optimized for speed?

[ChristopherKenworthy]

We shot our feature on Build 15, and encountered a few problems. All of these would have been solved with Build 16. This is the Red One as we always dreamed it would be. I'm going to reshoot some of the pickups with Build 16, because they were all low-light. I've only been messing about with it for a few hours, but it's fantastic.

[Leo Ticheli]

Please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere on RedUser; all lot has been posted in the last 24 hours and it's hard to keep up.

To work with 16x9 R3D files directly in FCS, is the correct procedure to simply import the full proxy file into a 1080P sequence?

Jim had mentioned that the clip would look dark in FCS monitor, but fine in the external monitor. I've not found that to be the case; the clip looks dark in both. What am I doing wrong?

Also, the proxy requires rendering to play in FCS; is this correct?

Just opening the proxies with QT player, they work fine.

We're doing our experiments with Red on an 8-core Leopard with all latest software.

Thanks for the enlightenment!

Leo

[Uli Plank]

How to you connec the second monitor?

[David Battistella]

RED ALERT: BETA 3.3.2

NOW THAT WE HAVE 16x9 SUPPORT::: ;)

It might be nice to have red alert display what aspect ratio are clips are in. (16x9 clip vs a 2:1 Clip etc) maybe this can be done with guides in the clip viewer?

I can see the frame size and pixel numbers change but maybe an aspect ratio (in yellow) added to this field could easily help how clips were shot.

Thanks,

David

[mavrix]

Working well on 1938 - other than little bugs listed above - have green tint issue on Panasonic 17" monitor. Image noticeably cleaner!

[dino g]

"Also, the proxy requires rendering to play in FCS; is this correct?"

do you have the RT pulldown menu set to Unlimited and quality medium or low?

[Leo Ticheli]

OK, I've found my trouble!

I was using Build 15 proxies! Build 16 proxies look great!

Best regards to all!

Leo

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim and Jarred,

Don't you think it's pretty cool how you can release this thing and suddenly hundreds of people are out there testing the crap out of it and providing feedback in less than 6 hours!?!?

I love the realtime element of all this.. I think it's fasinating.. I've loaded B16, but I'm just sitting here reading before I play with it.. I'm learning 5x faster just reading what 200 people are al experiencing at the same time than me by myself.

This is so cool

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Looking through EVF and LCD.. I go to RAW view and set exposure. Everything is fine, but if I move to REDSpace then the Green and Red channels are blown on the "stoplight".

I would think that the RAW output would be the one to follow.. Am I correct?

Jay

[Jannard]

Looking through EVF and LCD.. I go to RAW view and set exposure. Everything is fine, but if I move to REDSpace then the Green and Red channels are blown on the "stoplight".

I would think that the RAW output would be the one to follow.. Am I correct?

Jay

Jay,

This is a really good question. We have struggled with this one internally and can adjust as we go down the road. Currently the histogram is tied to REDspace. WYSIWYG. That means there is a bit of highlight protection built in. If you view REDspace and see the RAW histogram, there is an apparent disconnect between the two which is a bit disconcerting. We feel like this is the best compromise (for now) but we are open to comments. We can also add (assuming there is a large group that want it) a new space/histogram combo in the future.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Jim,

At this point, my lack of experience on the new build would keep me from offering a viewpoint.

But first let me paraphrase you to make sure I got this:

You are saying that even if we select RAW view, the Histogram (In my case the RGB Histotram) is still showing REDSpace and not RAW.

This assumption is based on the following:
"Currently the histogram is tied to REDspace"

But you also said:
If you view REDspace and see the RAW histogram, there is an apparent disconnect between the two which is a bit disconcerting.

So these two comments are confusing me a little ... Can you clarify for those of us that may not be operating on all thrusters? :)

(Ok just me)

Jay

[Jannard]

I'll let Stuart weigh in on this topic... he is much more eloquent than I.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

If you goto VIEW RAW the histogram is different then the histogram that is displayed when you are viewing REDSPACE ( or REC 709 for that matter). The differences increase when you start to deviate from the 320-500 asa range. View Raw will give you close to the native range of the sensor, and you will notice that when you change ISO when you are in VIEW RAW nothing visually changes on your monitor... histograms nor actual luminance of the image. VIEW RAW is basically bypassing the metadata flags and changes you are making in the camera.

One piece of advice I can to help with the confusion, and its what I do here, is to take the camera and set it up right beside the system you use to process R3D files.

Point the camera at something with a nice range of contrast ( a bit of blow out, something just under blow out, and dark dark dark shadows) , take a shot and leave the camera on. Open the files in Red Alert, and compare what is going with the histograms etc.

Its much easier to put the connection together when you can directly compare what you see on your camera, to what you see in Red Alert and final output, and it will help build a little confidence (hopefully)

[Michael Ragen]

Just installed 16.
I can't figure out how to adjust the evf brightness now.
To see everything on the chipchart on the evf I have to put the dark detail at .2%, which also makes the evf look a lot more like the image on the lcd. .2% was not the default.

[Mark L. Pederson]

VIEW RAW is basically bypassing the metadata flags and changes you are making in the camera.

This is key if you are using extreme "looks" in-camera and/or altering settings for a "client monitor".

So far, we are loving the RedSpace.

[Kenn Michael]

I would like to assign one of the user buttons to 'pop' in and out of RAWspace to check, at an instant, what is actually hitting the sensor and make sure that clipping isn't occurring in areas that detail should be kept.

Like Mark said, this is important if you're using really contrasty 'looks' in camera, etc...

[Kjetil Haugen]

How does build 16 look in 2k and 3k recording modes now with noise improvements? Something to test for... Can we shoot higher framerates now with less penalty?

[Jay A. Kelley]

I wish I knew what to say here.

For now I will simply say, I think having this choice is wonderful. It will take time to find out the best way to run it.

FOR RIGHT NOW... I am inclined to stay on RAW unless I find is nessesary to come off ASA 320.

But that may change

Jay

[Eryc Tramonn]

Jim and Jarred,

Don't you think it's pretty cool how you can release this thing and suddenly hundreds of people are out there testing the crap out of it and providing feedback in less than 6 hours!?!?

I love the realtime element of all this.. I think it's fasinating.. I've loaded B16, but I'm just sitting here reading before I play with it.. I'm learning 5x faster just reading what 200 people are al experiencing at the same time than me by myself.

This is so cool

Jay

I completely agree with everything you've said. I don't even own a camera, nor am I a DP. However, I follow the boards religiously because I can shoot, it's interesting to me, I'm a nerd, and above all: I learn so damn much just reading the threads. If I needed to pick up a camera in the next few minutes to shoot something, I could do it w/out hesitation, and feel as though I have a solid understanding of its pros, "limitations," and workarounds.

[Jannard]

How does build 16 look in 2k and 3k recording modes now with noise improvements? Something to test for... Can we shoot higher framerates now with less penalty?

There are several major improvements in Build 16 (hence "monumental"). The noise is less and better looking. The compression engine has been completely re-worked so you will see a lot less compression artifacts and a lot more information in highly detailed scenes. This translates across all resolutions and frame rates.

Jim

[Steve Sherrick]

Just got back from shooting an interview with Build 16. I have not brought the clips into post yet, but initial observations:

During recording, image looked very clean, absolutely striking especially in the viewfinder. Upon playback I was seeing some banding. Did not see this at all during live preview. I need to explore this to see what it could be.

Focusing with the edge highlight seems to have improved quite a bit. I was seeing it a lot better now. It popped while looking through the viewfinder especially.

I do notice some weird color flickering in the viewfinder occasionally, especially when moving forward and back from it. Probably something that has been discussed and I missed it in the past. But otherwise, so far I'm really loving the VF.

Is there a way to have the low battery warning come on sooner? I was running two cameras, and while checking something on the other camera, the battery had dropped low, so I stopped recording and tried to power down but the file was still posting and the camera shutdown during that process. Did I damage the file? Usually I would be on top of these things and never let the battery get down that low, but given the circumstance, I missed it this time.

I'm sure I'll have more notes. I'm a bit fried right now.

[Chris Kenny]

I'd definitely like to see an option to have histograms, traffic lights and particularly false color exposure mode based on raw, even when monitoring in REDSpace. These functions are most useful, in my opinion, when they provide objective indications of exposure.

Jim, you say it's a bit disconcerting when the meters don't reflect the image being displayed... but that's sort of the point, isn't it? You should be able to see at a glance how much of the nice looking image you see is a result of your exposure actually being correct, and how much is the camera pushing things around in the image processing pipeline.

[Stuart English]

Looking through EVF and LCD.. I go to RAW view and set exposure. Everything is fine, but if I move to REDSpace then the Green and Red channels are blown on the "stoplight". I would think that the RAW output would be the one to follow.. Am I correct?

Great question, but in my view as the camera exists in an RGB visual infrastructure, no.

Its best to monitor the camera using REDspace, paying attention to the visual look of the image in your monitors, backed up by the histogram and traffic lights. Note that all of these work in RGB color space - REDspace in this example, but it could also be REC709 - and especially when working in REDspace they will obviously track each other i.e what looks blown out visually is confirmed by the histogram and traffic lights.

Is this the same as what the sensor is seeing? No.

If you want to know what the sensor is seeing select view RAW. If you want to expose your camera using view RAW go right ahead, but recognize that if you expose to the right when in view RAW, when you bring the recorded data into post production your material may look blown out because a standard RAW to REC 709 or REDspace conversion adds some amount of gain to the signal.

Now you CAN use curves to avoid that, but this is more time to spend than is necessary than if you shoot the camera in REDspace directly.

So bottom line - why do we have both views? REDspace gives you the immediate WYSIWIG view that you will see in post. RAW is a reality check to see where the sensor really sits. Sometimes its useful to know when working in REDspace that when the traffic lights are blinking on, you can flip over to view RAW to see if there is headroom in the RAW recording that you can exploit in post to correct for the RGB domain visual clipping.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Great question, but in my view as the camera exists in an RGB visual infrastructure, no.

Its best to monitor the camera using REDspace, paying attention to the visual look of the image in your monitors, backed up by the histogram and traffic lights. Note that all of these work in RGB color space - REDspace in this example, but it could also be REC709 - and especially when working in REDspace they will obviously track each other i.e what looks blown out visually is confirmed by the histogram and traffic lights.

Is this the same as what the sensor is seeing? No.

If you want to know what the sensor is seeing select view RAW. If you want to expose your camera using view RAW go right ahead, but recognize that if you expose to the right when in view RAW, when you bring the recorded data into post production your material may look blown out because a standard RAW to REC 709 or REDspace conversion adds some amount of gain to the signal.

Now you CAN use curves to avoid that, but this is more time to spend than is necessary than if you shoot the camera in REDspace directly.

So bottom line - why do we have both views? REDspace gives you the immediate WYSIWIG view that you will see in post. RAW is a reality check to see where the sensor really sits. Sometimes its useful to know when working in REDspace that when the traffic lights are blinking on, you can flip over to view RAW to see if there is headroom in the RAW recording that you can exploit in post to correct for the RGB domain visual clipping.

Ok.. this helps a lot.. Thanks!

Good call sending up Stuart, Jim.

:)
Jay

[David Battistella]

Jay,
That means there is a bit of highlight protection built in.

Jim

Jim,

What is the highlight protection (in stops) that you have built in? I find that stuff that is metered and then exposed according to the meter seems under by 2/3rds to 1 and 1/4 stops.

Is this the "highlight protection" you are talking about?

To me, it seems that you need to expose one way for "straight to video" (quicktimes that don't need much "work" when opened in FCP) than if you are going to a filmout. Testing is the best policy but what are your thoughts on this?

Is that a correct assumption?

Thanks,

David

[Uli Plank]

I'd like to second what Chris Kenny said: see RedSpace on monitors, but have histogram, false color and traffic lights relate to sensor data. For me, they are measuring instruments telling me precisely what hits the sensor.

LCD and monitoring should look nice for those standing around too.

Just my two cents, but maybe I'm thinking too technical ?

Uli

[eastwaviking]

Just shot some 4k 16x9 footage, dropped H proxys into FCP, rendered it, looks
delicioso!!!!! Much better color and contrast....now we're getting somewhere.

Thanks!

[Jay A. Kelley]

So if I understand the request that is surfacing, people want to be able to not only select the kind of histogram they are seeing, but the colorspace it's based off of. And they want that to be independant of the monitor's color space.

I have a feeling this will ask a lot of the camera's computing power.


Jay

[Stuart English]

I'd like to second what Chris Kenny said: see RedSpace on monitors, but have histogram, false color and traffic lights relate to sensor data. For me, they are measuring instruments telling me precisely what hits the sensor.

LCD and monitoring should look nice for those standing around too. Just my two cents, but maybe I'm thinking too technical?

There is merit in that concept, but refer back to my comment that we visually live in RGB color space. So yes its a good idea to be able to check on the RAW data from time to time, but as long as the camera has low noise characteristics, we can afford to monitor primarily in RGB (REDspace).

[Dj Joofa]

I'd like to second what Chris Kenny said: see RedSpace on monitors, but have histogram, false color and traffic lights relate to sensor data. For me, they are measuring instruments telling me precisely what hits the sensor.


I would tend to think that if you are operating at manufacturer's prescribed color temperature (is it 5000 or 5500) then RGB and sensor raw data values may be pretty close. I.e., implying the transformation matrix between them is closer to unity/identity.

[jbeale]

...if you are operating at manufacturer's prescribed color temperature (is it 5000 or 5500) then RGB and sensor raw data values may be pretty close.

That's what I'd expect- but I'm guessing that most people will not expect their clipping limits to change with the color temperature, because very few (any?) cameras currently meter exposure that way. So for most people, I'm guessing that would lead to more exposure errors. For example, when they start off with a 5000 K scene and then the sun starts setting and it is a 3000 K environment or something else.

[Jose Alvarez]

Having sat at many telecine transfers and seeing the huge difference between what I shot (the neg) and the first light (or full color correction) of my film footage, I always dreamed I could see exactly how the negative was seeing the light out on the field. Even though I don't have my Red cam yet, I can't believe my dreams are actually coming true! :-)

[david farland]

Love the build. Thanks guys.....

I'm also getting a total green screen using a HDlink.

I'll bug you on the monitor 1080p soon.

for now.....beautiful build...lots of clever functional changes.

To all the coders (et al) on this....Absolutely Well Done!!!

D

[rglusic]

I found out today from Red that the SD card supplied with the camera doesn't work to upgrade to B16. You must have the CF card module and a Red CF card for it to work so I had to order one today. I tryed all different ways to get the SD card to upgrade but no luck. If anyone got there SD card to work I would love to know.

Thanks,
Bob

[Thor Wixom]

I found out today from Red that the SD card supplied with the camera doesn't work to upgrade to B16. You must have the CF card module and a Red CF card for it to work so I had to order one today. I tryed all different ways to get the SD card to upgrade but no luck. If anyone got there SD card to work I would love to know.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob,

I didn't have any problems using my SD card to upgrade. I did not use a CF card at all to upgrade my camera to Build 16.

-Thor

[ATF]

Hello,

So back to comments related to the build!

Just went upstairs onto the roof and tested things out. All footage shot on the RED Drive. Here are a few things I noticed:

Camera & Lens specs:

REDONE #1614 w/ RED Nikon mount
RED Drive
RED CF Module
RED LCD
Zeiss ZF 100mm Makro-Planar F2
Zeiss ZF 50mm F1.4
Sigma 400mm F
Peleng 8mm fisheye
ND 4 & 8

Software Config:
Build: 14:50:50 June 16, 2008
SW Version: 2008 6_16_01
Targeted IOF: 5_30_0
Current VPF: 5_30_0
Targeted VPF: 6_08_0
Current VPF: 6_08_0

Pin Number: 102-46A-E59
Build 16
Version 3.1.2

Settings:

REDSpace 36
4k 16:9 at 23.98 fps
ASA 320 at 1/48 s
Audio 1 w/ 48v Active

Boot time w/ RED Drive: 01:25:30
Boot time w/ CF Card: 01:23:00

1. Camera will not boot with either RED CF Card reliably. The camera sits for 01:55:00 minutes at nothing but "booting" and then shuts itself off. The main LCD never activates, but flickers briefly. The rear LCD turns on again after it reboots and the initial result continues. The fan activates at 01:45:00 before the camera shuts off at 01:55:00. If I wait around 30 seconds and try to reboot again, sometimes it will boot with the CF card and sometimes not. When the camera finally comes to, it lists "SLOW MEDIA". Obviously this is related to the REDSpace 36 not working with the 8 gigabyte CF cards. Therefore, I set the camera to REDSpace 28, shut down and tried to reboot and it still would not boot. I switched it on and off twice before it booted on the third try. Note: It seems that it is now working better after I reformatted both of the CF Cards under B16 with REDSpace set to 28 instead of 36.

2. Peleng 8mm: When panning the camera past a series of bright rear-lit clouds, the camera stopped recording and reported "Rocketio fault". After it stopped and I hit Record again, it stopped the camera again and listed "Audio fault". When I turned the camera away and waited for thirty seconds, it no longer displayed those recording errors. This did not happen with the other lenses listed when doing pans by brightly lit clouds.

3. Audio: The 48v selection in Audio does not retain it's setting to "on" after you power down the camera and reboot.

4. Sigma 400mm & Zeiss ZF 100mm: Vertical streaks on the LCD with the Sigma and Zeiss when focusing on anything tall and rectangular. For example: I was shooting some footage of the Empire State Building with the Sigma 400mm and noticed some hard streaks on the LCD when concentrating on the spire. It was also prevalent with the other lenses, but not as noticeable. I have _not_ examined the footage yet, so this could be a LCD related issue only. EDIT: Looks like it was only in the LCD (whew).

5. The battery warning time for shutting down because of a low battery needs to be recalculated. When it warned me that I had a low battery and had 28 seconds to stop recording and shut down, the entire camera powered off at 24 seconds before I could stop recording and shut down.

6. The batteries seem to go very quickly. I'll need to order two more to compliment the two I have already.

More to follow.

Thanks,

ATF

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Not sure if this is the fault of Build 16 or Red Alert, but exporting a 2K DPX always gives me a garbled image. See attached. This doesn't happen with 4K DPX. I'm using the latest Glue Tools. (Forgive me for just shooting the wall in my office - I know that's a waste of Red, but I was just testing...)

[Evin Grant]

I've had a little (stress little) time to play and test B15 Vs. B16 and here are my observations so far, as well as a few questions...

Firstly, I really like the new noise/grain structure, much more organic even at 800 ISO. Red space seems like a nice tool for shooting but I'm having a hard time getting a highlight to roll off nicely in RA. Rec709 or a custom curve over linear seem to do a better job (Example below).
Secondly I tested Build 15 Vs. 16 with and without Noise reduction on and I'm having a hard time telling the difference. (See below) It appears that build 16 is applying a certain amount of NR as a default regardless of your settings in Red Alert (I've yet to compare them in motion though).
Thirdly, other than a drop in noise because of the seeming NR (And a subsequent boost in useable ISO) I have not noticed any DR increase. Apples to apples the B16 scene was not any better in highlight retention or shadow detail. The good news is this seems to have no negative effect on detail. If any of the Red team is reading this please tell me what I might be doing wrong.

Highlight Sample...
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/B16Highlight.jpg
I haven't tried to create a camera curve yet but the one above based loosely on the Panalog (Shudder) will be my next attempt. I'm not sure if a curve loaded into the camera can be applied directly to the RAW view though.
Stuart? Jim?

Tungsten light Blue Channel NR comparison...
http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/B16BlueCh.jpg

I'll post the DPXs from the above comparison in a little bit.

[jbeale]

Looking at the blue channel crops, the edge of the shadow of the glass canning jar (?) looks better (cleaner) in B16 to me, than the NR version of B15. Otherwise they look similar to me.

[cinepost35]

Can you add anymore Noise reduction to the B16 sample ? Does it get even cleaner?

[Jannard]

1st off... you have NR set in RED Alert! If NR is set to off in RA!, then there is no NR. None. If you have set "some" in RA! and don't see a difference, that is a bug.

You can certainly match up the spaces (Linear, REDlog, RDspace, REC 709, etc.) pretty well if you want to. Most people don't want to so we have made it easy.

There is a new space coming courtesy of Graeme and Deanan called REDflex. It does an incredible job of rolling off the highlights, among other things.

For my tests, I haven't stressed the image this much to do a comparison. I'll do that this weekend before I comment.

One of the key things you are missing in comparing Build 15 to B16 is the compression change. Shoot both in high detail, high contrast situations. There is a huge difference. Plus, the dreaded "codec error" is all but a thing of the past.

Build 16 is "monumental" for many reasons, including the number of improvements and added features. If you are stuck on the fact that we haven't delivered 2 extra stops of DNR, we have failed. Where we have delivered more is in the combination of less/beter quality noise and more detail in the shadows of high detailed scenes. And less need for NR. Since the floor is certainly more useable, it has more latitude. I guess until we set down a specific definition for both of those terms, we will just use them casually to describe more useful on either/both ends of the spectrum. Build 16 does just that. How much depends on the conditions. So far, what we have seen and heard from most everyone is that the image (most important part of this program) is significantly better. That was goal one.

Jim

[tobzila]

We just did the upgrade with build 16th today and tested the camera all day long. At the end of the day the camera started to say CODEC FAULT while recording. We were shooting at 4K16/9 redcode 28, recording on CF, we tried with the drive and it didn't solve the problem. The camera was very hot and it happened in every format we tried: 3K or 4K 16/9 or 2:1.
It happened the very first time while we were using a 18mm lens at t.4. We change the lens for a 50mm and the problem was resovled for 2 minutes of recording. after 2 minutes it happened again.
Do you think it can be because of the build, the heat or something else?
Thank you

[Evin Grant]

Can you add anymore Noise reduction to the B16 sample ? Does it get even cleaner?

Here is a sample, it does seem to clean up the image more but at the expense of a very small amount of detail. I'll reserve judgment till I can see how ell it does in motion.

http://www.4kninjas.net/pics/NRcomp.jpg

[cinepost35]

One of the key things you are missing in comparing Build 15 to B16 is the compression change. Shoot both in high detail, high contrast situations. There is a huge difference. Plus, the dreaded "codec error" is all but a thing of the past.

Jim

Jim Build 16 is absolutley magic.....Since I haven't had a chance to see it projected for myself yet. How would you best describe the compresion change between B15 and B16 to your eye when projected in 4k?

Do all the improvements help the 4K projected image it seems like that is really where it should shine the most?

Thanks!

[Damon Meledones]

Sometimes its useful to know when working in REDspace that when the traffic lights are blinking on, you can flip over to view RAW to see if there is headroom in the RAW recording that you can exploit in post to correct for the RGB domain visual clipping.

Stuart, if it's at all technically possible with the camera's processing power, having a "two stage" traffic light would be a wonderful way to check headroom in these situations with a quick glance, without having to switch over to RAW. What I mean by two stage, or dual state, is this: when a channel clips in the current working color space, a partial symbol is displayed in the traffic light (e.g. a half circle, or a circle with a black dot in the center), however, when that channel is also clipping in the RAW recording, the full symbol is displayed (e.g. a solid circle).

When the RAW starts clipping you'd still probably want to switch to RAW view and have a look at just how badly. But anytime RESspace is clipping and RAW isn't, you could keep shooting without having to stop and check, confident that all of your highlights will be recoverable in post should you need them. Does that seem feasible for a future release? I've been dreaming of such a function ever since my first RED shoot.

[Jarred Land]

Stuart, if it's at all technically possible with the camera's processing power, having a "two stage" traffic light would be a wonderful way to check headroom in these situations with a quick glance

This is something we discussed in mid-16 development. Unfortunately, there are a few complications that made it alot harder to implement then it first seemed.

We are still looking for a way to do it :)

[tobzila]

Any ideas about this CODEC FAULT warning we just experienced?

[Damon Meledones]

We are still looking for a way to do it :)

Music to my ears, Jarred! :w00t:

[Jarred Land]

Music to my ears, Jarred! :w00t:

Its really incredible how much all you guys have helped with your feedback and requests since day 1.. Build 16 as you can see has alot of the communities requests rolled into it.

[cinepost35]

Jim Build 16 is absolutley magic.....Since I haven't had a chance to see it projected for myself yet. How would you best describe the compresion change between B15 and B16 to your eye when projected in 4k?

Do all the improvements help the 4K projected image it seems like that is really where it should shine the most?

Thanks!

Would like to repost my above question to Jim or anyone else at Red that may be able to comment.

[Evin Grant]

Jim,
I know you've personally spent a ton of time on this build so I'll start by saying that I think the image is improved greatly and B16 would be worth it if only for the more organic grain character.


1st off... you have NR set in RED Alert! If NR is set to off in RA!, then there is no NR. None. If you have set "some" in RA! and don't see a difference, that is a bug.

I did have the setting to "Off" for the lower test (Double checked and output twice). Do you have a sample frame without NR for comparison?



You can certainly match up the spaces (Linear, REDlog, RDspace, REC 709, etc.) pretty well if you want to. Most people don't want to so we have made it easy.

This seems true for those that want to shoot WYSIWYG.



There is a new space coming courtesy of Graeme and Deanan called REDflex. It does an incredible job of rolling off the highlights, among other things.

This sounds awesome!



One of the key things you are missing in comparing Build 15 to B16 is the compression change. Shoot both in high detail, high contrast situations. There is a huge difference. Plus, the dreaded "codec error" is all but a thing of the past.

I'll take your word for it Jim, I've never complained about the B15 detail level and I've never once had a Codec Fault so I can't really comment on those two improvements.



Build 16 is "monumental" for many reasons, including the number of improvements and added features. If you are stuck on the fact that we haven't delivered 2 extra stops of DNR, we have failed... Since the floor is certainly more useable, it has more latitude


I didn't expect anything, I just want to understand the improvements. One question thought, don't you need to rate the camera higher in order to achieve a greater DR with this method? Viz. if the image is one stop cleaner in the shadows you can expose one stop lower and achieve one more stop of highlight range adding to the overall DR. If this is the case isn't the natural ISO now 640? (Or whatever).



Where we have delivered more is in the combination of less/better quality noise and more detail in the shadows of high detailed scenes. And less need for NR.. I guess until we set down a specific definition for both of those terms, we will just use them casually to describe more useful on either/both ends of the spectrum.

I am seeing that, but I'm also seeing what looks like noise reduction applied even when I have the setting to "Off". This very well may be a bug in Red Alert. I don't know.



So far, what we have seen and heard from most everyone is that the image (most important part of this program) is significantly better. That was goal one.

No doubt, but a great looking image is step one, in order to manipulate it we need to understand it. To understand it we need to know where it's limits are. This is only a very preliminary shake down test of the build, and it was meant to be brutal (Deep shadow, source reflection, tungsten light) in order to magnify the differences in the builds.

Please don't misinterpret my test as an attack, I sense there is a lot of improvement, I'm trying to quantify it so I can use it to it's fullest advantage and give you useful feedback on your release build.

[Jarred Land]

Would like to repost my above question to Jim or anyone else at Red that may be able to comment.

absolutely cinepost... build 15 was pretty incredible but you could see certain "characteristics" that would be more apparent visually when shown on the 4k projector. Chicken scratch for example.. is a thing of the past.

Of note as well aside from the actual image improvements, one of the things that also happened on build 15 is that people tended to expose incorrectly, because our metering wasn't as accurate as it could of been. Now you can reliably use the monitor or the meters (or both) in build 16 to set a proper exposure, and 9 out of 10 times it will match what your light meter would tell you; and obviously that will improve the quality of footage, specially if you tended to drastically underexpose or overexpose by accident on build 15.

[Jannard]

Any ideas about this CODEC FAULT warning we just experienced?

Not sure...I haven't seen it. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. How hot was the environment? Did you have a Temp Warning?

Jim

[Jarred Land]

Any ideas about this CODEC FAULT warning we just experienced?

Hey Tobzila.. did you remember to reformat all your media on your Build 16 camera? This sometimes will happen if you record onto a drive or card that was formated on build 15.

[Evin Grant]

OK, I'm starting to get to the bottom of this. It does look like some NR is being applied by Red Alert. I restarted it and output a bunch of frames and now the "Off" setting is looking more like what I had expected. I'll try and repeat the original settings and find out why the NR was being applied in the "Off" position.

[cinepost35]

absolutely cinepost... build 15 was pretty incredible but you could see certain "characteristics" that would be more apparent visually when shown on the 4k projector. Chicken scratch for example.. is a thing of the past.

Of note as well aside from the actual image improvements, one of the things that also happened on build 15 is that people tended to expose incorrectly, because our metering wasn't as accurate as it could of been. Now you can reliably use the monitor or the meters (or both) in build 16 to set a proper exposure, and 9 out of 10 times it will match what your light meter would tell you; and obviously that will improve the quality of footage, specially if you tended to drastically underexpose or overexpose by accident on build 15.

Thanks Jarred looking forward to seeing 4K projected from B16 in the near future. Great point about the exposure being so much more dialed in now and how that will effect user results.

[Joel Kaye]

Possible Bug: When I have playback set to 1080P the playback on the EVF and LCD are both cropped.. almost like a 2x view.

Playback codec error when playing back timelapse on camera.

Have seen occasional lower 3rd smearing on LCD. Can't replicate consistently.

[jbeale]

according to the B16 manual, in 1080p playback mode, the EVF and LCD views are 720p crops of the 1080p frame (which itself is slightly less than the full 4k field of view)

build_16_ops_guide_v3.1.2.pdf, page 53:

1080p: Video output is 1920 x 1080 pixels. For 4K RAW files the image width corresponds to 3,840 pixels scaled down to 1920 pixels, available on the HD Preview (HD-SDI only), HD Program (Dual Link HD-SDI), RED-EVF and RED-LCD outputs. The RED-EVF and RED-LCD will display a 1280 x 720 pixel center cut section out of the larger 1920 x 1080 image.

[Jannard]

Evin... I really do appreciate your scrutiny and don't perceive of it as an attack. You are one of the ones here that has worked RED footage the most. Maybe I sound a bit cranky due to lack of sleep, pressure and the excitement of rolling out our new baby. I won't take it personally if you don't... even then I won't take it personally.

This has been a strain on all of us. I don't think the job is over, but we all need a 10 minute break. I have shot, opened and examined and worked several hundred tests (probably more) in the past two months. I'm not really sure about anything at this moment except the build is a good one, the team is awesome, and we value our customers enough to throw our bodies on the fire.

My best to all.. and to all a "good night".

Jim

[Jarred Land]

Possible Bug: When I have playback set to 1080P the playback on the EVF and LCD are both cropped.. almost like a 2x view.
.

normal... the LCD and EVF dont have 1080 resolution, so you are only seeing the respective device's crop outof the center of the 1080 image.

[Joel Kaye]

normal... the LCD and EVF dont have 1080 resolution, so you are only seeing the respective device's crop outof the center of the 1080 image.

Got it. Thanks.

I've noticed good performance from complicated ramps. The camera used to choke about halfway through some of the weirder ones I'd set up.

Overall, very cool build from what I'm seeing.

Haven't been able to break the codec so far. Tomorrow I'll get the camera hot and try some stuff that used to break it.

I really like the EVF scroll access to things. Yeah, it would be nice to toggle all menus items off someday but in my case they don't bug me much. Guess I'm weird that way.

[Lauri Kettunen]

If you want to know what the sensor is seeing select view RAW. If you want to expose your camera using view RAW go right ahead, but recognize that if you expose to the right when in view RAW, when you bring the recorded data into post production your material may look blown out because a standard RAW to REC 709 or REDspace conversion adds some amount of gain to the signal.

Stuart, If I get you right, you say the RAW view is the absolute view. On one had, if the highlights clip in the RAW view, then that's absolutely the case and clipping cannot be reverted. On the other hand, the REDspace is "relative" including some headspace for clipping.

The overall idea is, the RAW view is valuable when you really want to push the camera to its limits. But, the cost is the amount of efforts one has to invest later on in post in grading. REDspace is a trade-off which gives one almost the best quality, forgives some exposure mistakes, and which decreases the amount of work needed in post.

Could you please confirm this is a proper interpretation. With build 15 I already observed that when I shoot right and knowing where the highlights clips, the footages appear as if overexposured when opened in Redcine. Still by adjusting the gamme curve the images appear just amazing.

Since all my serious shooting is only outdoors need to cope with high contrast situations all the time. Knowing where the absolute right is located is vital and thus willing to invest extra work in post to gain the maximum dynamic range.

[Gunleik Groven]

RAW preview is just a dream come true!

Gunleik
(who cannot jump the wagon for another week...)

[Dj Joofa]

That's what I'd expect- but I'm guessing that most people will not expect their clipping limits to change with the color temperature, because very few (any?) cameras currently meter exposure that way.

Lets give that as a homework problem to Chris Lyon (haven't seem him here much lately) to derive the matrix between the spaces offered by RedAlert at various color temperatures :) Homework due next Friday by 5:00 p.m.

[tobzila]

Not sure...I haven't seen it. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. How hot was the environment? Did you have a Temp Warning?

Jim

No temp warning. The room was hot but nothing insane... The camera was ON all day long on the test room for differents purposes.

[tobzila]

Hey Tobzila.. did you remember to reformat all your media on your Build 16 camera? This sometimes will happen if you record onto a drive or card that was formated on build 15.

We did reformat all the CF before using it with build 16th. When it started to do it, it did it all the time, and very quickly, between 2 secondes and 50 secondes after pushed the rec button. With the CF and the drive.
If by any chances ( and I really don't think there is), we did record on a CF that was formatted on build 15, what can we do?
Thank you very much

[Christian Berg]

I found out today from Red that the SD card supplied with the camera doesn't work to upgrade to B16. You must have the CF card module and a Red CF card for it to work so I had to order one today. I tryed all different ways to get the SD card to upgrade but no luck. If anyone got there SD card to work I would love to know.

Thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob!

I used the SD card for upgrading to b16 that came with the camera and one more that i bought in a store. No problems at all. Worked perfect. /Christian

[Andrew M.]

RAW preview is just a dream come true!



Agree 100%, now I can stop fooling around with the parade to check the clips right after each take.
I was getting good feel on the histogram and traffic lights, how far I can push it though.
Finally all will click exactly where it should be.

So far what I see, for the gigs B16 gives extra stop because of more acceptable noise texture and the fact that I can dig deeper in to the shadows. On the highlight side I don't have to keep guessing anymore. This boils down to less mistakes and less scrapped footage because of under or over exposure and if you couldn't re-take the shot you had to deal with less stops and lower quality of final product.

For the people that have a lot of experience with the film mostly, well, on the highlight side, they will get extra sop there, and not only.

I hope that in B17 we will get shutter speed bracketing for HDR moving images.

[REDHKSC]

is it a bad idea to set up a new section to make a comparision on all

Working features with no bugs and not yet 100% stable features with a little small bug between the Releasesd B15 v2.25 and Beta test verion B16 v3.1.2 ?

Anyone like to do it in States or EU or me in ASIA ?

Stew.

[Ed van der Kruijssen]

Hi.
We recorded some timelapse shots 4K 2:1 each 8 seconds 1 frame, shutter 1/50
It's not possible to play it back on camera or to open the file in Red Alert.
Is this a known problem?

Ed

[David Battistella]

Hi.
We recorded some timelapse shots 4K 2:1 each 8 seconds 1 frame, shutter 1/50
It's not possible to play it back on camera or to open the file in Red Alert.
Is this a known problem?

Ed

I have had no problem with Timelapse in 23.98 4K 2:1 project only went to 1/6th shutter and they played back in camera OK.

I think you should be sure to check that you are interval recording instead of ONE-SHOT this might be your problem...


David

[J. Eric Camp]

Off topic:

You cant do shutter speed bracketing with moving pictures for HDR results. Anything moving fast will have too much motion blur. Think of the difference between three consecutive frames. Maybe you could write a code that would leave each pixel open for the full shutter speed and pull frames out at the fast and middle exposures. MAYBE. I have another way but it requires alot of light and a few other tech hitches.

On topic:

RedSpace. Think of it just like you were before. You were looking at the Rec709 space and had learned to envision what you were going to have to play with in post. RedSpace gives you and even better interpretation of that. You are not delivering in RAW format you will choose some color space to deliver in. This is a nice pre visualization for that final deliverable.

RAW is great and some thing you should check and look at. One great thing is that the operator can see RAW while still pumping a meta-data laden image out to the client. Frick'n genious. Now just make the time code, shot name and rec tally always an option for my client out put and I am happy.

Off topic again:

Also don't just look for answers inside the camera. For instance: Need a little more head room? Not alot of contrast? Shoot 500asa then. It will drop your midpoint down and give you more space for "bright" pixels. Compensate for it with some NDs and you are set. Just be spot on with exposure so you are not bringing anything up and seeing any extra noise.

Okay I'll stop.

[Stuart English]

The RAW view is valuable when you really want to push the camera to its limits. But, the cost is the amount of efforts one has to invest later on in post in grading. REDspace is a trade-off which gives one almost the best quality, forgives some exposure mistakes, and which decreases the amount of work needed in post.

Could you please confirm this is a proper interpretation.

You got it!

[JarredKrakow]

Does Build 16 fix audio problems people have been having? Is it now possible to use the camera's phantom power instead of going line in?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

LOL - Stew, you're using one of my photoshopped pics as your avatar. Hehe

[REDHKSC]

LOL - Stew, you're using one of my photoshopped pics as your avatar. Hehe

I can resist to your great EDUCATION to those NEW RED Shooters.

If you don't like it I change, and YES I am using your PICS but I pay >
How much ?

Cheers,

Stew.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's cool.. I just thought it was funny. :)

[Jon Corcuera]

I just finished shooting a Film in Panama as DIT, the Dop was Mauricio Vidal(Colombia), the director and Producer Abner Benaim (Panama) the producer Matthias Ehrenberg (Mexico). I was hopping that we where able to shoot it with this build, since was expected for the NAB I am glad to hear it has finally come out and looking for seeing the changes. I might be doing another movie in less than a month so I hope you guys get it stable before that time arrives, but until next week I am not going to be able of testing it, so ...
I have one question about the famous redspace. is a new work with codification but is it changing the color space?, does it have any advantages with the REDlog or better said disadvantages? is it good for working teathrical pourposes or like 709 is a waste of info?.
Sorry but my wrighting is horrible and i am in a hurry I hope you understood the idea and waiting for your clarification

[Stuart English]

Does Build 16 fix audio problems people have been having? Is it now possible to use the camera's phantom power instead of going line in?

Yes, it improves the audio, but no change to phantom power status.

[Stuart English]

We recorded some timelapse shots 4K 2:1 each 8 seconds 1 frame, shutter 1/50 It's not possible to play it back on camera or to open the file in Red Alert. Is this a known problem?

Ed

25 fps Project Time Base, Interval 8 sec Speed 1/50 Repeat 1 frame Burst Repeat ?

[wedowee]

I used SD card to upgrade to b15 v2.2.8 (the intermediate build required before loading b16), and then I upgraded to b16. Used a 512MB SD card - I think the one that came with the camera. Make sure the card is clean, then copy the Upgrade folder from b15 2.2.8, install in camera, await the upgrade prompt, install. Then remove the card, plug back into your card reader on your Mac/PC, delete the Upgrade folder. Then place the b16 Upgrade folder onto it, install in camera, await the upgrade prompt and install.

[Andrew M.]

Off topic:

You cant do shutter speed bracketing with moving pictures for HDR results. Anything moving fast will have too much motion blur. Think of the difference between three consecutive frames. Maybe you could write a code that would leave each pixel open for the full shutter speed and pull frames out at the fast and middle exposures. MAYBE. I have another way but it requires alot of light and a few other tech hitches.


Frzendreams, we already did try 2K at 60fps with two cameras and then we merged it in to 30fps HDR.

HDR works great this way, if not that parallax problem from 3D effect from two cameras.


Yes I agree, having RAW and metadata processed output at the same time is 'genious':-)

This camera can do everything now, more I play with it more I like it.

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

maybe this issue has allready been mentioned..... we shot 3K 36fps redcode 36 on REDdrive and it crashed and crashed again. We finally changed to 2K 36fps and the crashing stopped.

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, it improves the audio, but no change to phantom power status.

Stuart, is this something that will have a solution or do you think it just comes down to a hardware limitation?

I only ask because if it's something that can't be fixed, I need to come up with a solution for those times I want to use phantom powered mics in a run and gun situation. I'll probably just rig a SD MM1 or a SD Mixpre to the camera and only use line input on Red. Obviously in times when we have adequate sound budget we will have double system sound, with Red most likely just acting as a reference track. But phantom power issues is a big one in run and gun (doc, nature, sports, etc)

[wedowee]

Frzendreams, we already did try 2K at 60fps with two cameras and then we merged it in to 30fps HDR.

HDR works great this way, if not that parallax problem from 3D effect from two cameras.


Yes I agree, having RAW and metadata processed output at the same time is 'genious':-)

This camera can do everything now, more I play with it more I like it.

Hey Andrew, do you have any time to post some low-res results. Did you place cameras side by side, or use a splitter? I'm very interested in this. Thanks.

[Andrew M.]

Hey Andrew, do you have any time to post some low-res results. Did you place cameras side by side, or use a splitter? I'm very interested in this. Thanks.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14479

Start from post 35 and down

[Tai Wah Lim]

I do notice some weird color flickering in the viewfinder occasionally, especially when moving forward and back from it. Probably something that has been discussed and I missed it in the past.



Playing around with LCD and Viewfinder settings on B16. Then made some quick pan and notice images in the lower part of LCD breaking up and not catching up with the rest of the images on the top. Rebooting clear the problem. It this a B15 issue too. Read in a posting that B15 is more of a flickering issue.

[Steve Sherrick]

I did notice this on the LCD when I first started playing with Build 16 but then it cleared up and hasn't shown up since.

The EVF is a bit harder to describe. It's almost like I notice thin rainbow patterns depending whether my eye is right in the cup or pulled away slightly. Otherwise, it's really great. Very sharp.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Yes, it improves the audio, but no change to phantom power status.

Ok, if you say so, Stuart, but I just tested it today before I read this, and it seemed to work just fine with my Senny MKH-60 which has no capsule and requires 48v phantom...no more squealing, no hiss, nothing like it used to be. The preamp noise seemed a little noisy, but it always seems a little noisy to me. Fine for a reference file, though--and it used to be totally unuseable. I was actually going to compliment you guys for getting a start on fixing this.

Maybe you folks have gotten so good at this that the camera is fixing itself....

[cinemano]

i wana do the Build 16 upgrade so much, but scared it'll reject my Lexus 300x Speed 8gb CF cards.. Anyone knows if they still work? At 4K?

[Casey Green]

Build 16 does indeed look fantastic.

Curious: Is Soderbergh shooting The Informant on build 16???

[Tai Wah Lim]

i wana do the Build 16 upgrade so much, but scared it'll reject my Lexus 300x Speed 8gb CF cards.. Anyone knows if they still work? At 4K?

Cinemano, for once I thought you are talking about the Lexus car. Sure, i used the Lexar 300X to upgrade to B16 and shoot.

[Pawel Achtel]

Cache - exactly what the doctor ordered :biggrin:
Thank you!

[Matthew Rogers]

i wana do the Build 16 upgrade so much, but scared it'll reject my Lexus 300x Speed 8gb CF cards.. Anyone knows if they still work? At 4K?

The Lexus cards won't work but the Lexar cards still do;) Of course, the Lexar cards will always work because that's what RED used for their cards.

Shot my football footage on one a few hours after build 16 came out.

Matthew

[sbaechler]

Hi

What's the difference between the menu items "Video/Color/Exposure", "Video/Color/Brightness" and "Video/Gain/Master" ?

[Bal Deo]

This may possibly be already posted!!! Not sure if this was also in build 15.
if the video asist is active, it seems you will lose the histrogram display.

[Warren Kommers]

camera crashing at 3k 2:1 60fps to Red drive.

[Nuno Rocha]

As someone post some footage from this build?

[Joel Kaye]

i wana do the Build 16 upgrade so much, but scared it'll reject my Lexus 300x Speed 8gb CF cards.. Anyone knows if they still work? At 4K?

16x9 needs RedCode 28. Other than that I think they work fine.

[Ben A.]

Hey Red,

How exactly do I install beta 16? It does not seem to have any effect on my HVX200!!!! ;P

Seriously, I am jealous of the improvements for the Red One.

back to topic...

[Erik Bien]

WARNING: Attempting to install Build 16 on any Sony or Panasonic products may cause your camera to commit hara-kiri.

[Antoine Fabi]

My comments?

after testing...One word...Fantastic!

...testing more and more :)

Antoine

[Steve Sherrick]

Hey Red,

How exactly do I install beta 16? It does not seem to have any effect on my HVX200!!!! ;P

Seriously, I am jealous of the improvements for the Red One.

back to topic...

I got it to work on mine and now the camera has little to no noise. Amazing.

[Antoine Fabi]

I dont believe my eyes, i thought the footage was on pause...it was rolling!

Also, i love the way RED Space makes exposure assesment so much easier.

It's incredible, really.


Antoine

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

Jim, you stated that this is now a production camera with build 16....not true yet.
While I agree that this is noisereduction and imagewise a prodution ready camera(its actually GREAT), there are simply too many build 16 issues for it to achieve that status. 3K mode is totally unusable with any recording media!
How could your testingprogram not have revealed this?
Im flabbergasted.
FYI I recieved my cam today and I am indeed a happy costumer.
I shot 20+ commercials on RED(and 1500+ on 35mm)including the "famous" Nescafé and plan to do the first entirely shot on RED feature in denmark this fall.
Best regards
JJ

[Kenn Michael]

I haven't had any issues shooting 3K in the 6 months that I've had the camera.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Jim, you stated that this is now a production camera with build 16....not true yet.
While I agree that this is noisereduction and imagewise a prodution ready camera(its actually GREAT), there are simply too many build 16 issues for it to achieve that status. 3K mode is totally unusable with any recording media!
How could your testingprogram not have revealed this?
Im flabbergasted.
FYI I recieved my cam today and I am indeed a happy costumer.
I shot 20+ commercials on RED(and 1500+ on 35mm)including the "famous" Nescafé and plan to do the first entirely shot on RED feature in denmark this fall.
Best regards
JJ

I guess you didn't see the word BETA when you downloaded the Build 16.

[Kjetil Haugen]

Jim, you stated that this is now a production camera with build 16....not true yet.
While I agree that this is noisereduction and imagewise a prodution ready camera(its actually GREAT), there are simply too many build 16 issues for it to achieve that status. 3K mode is totally unusable with any recording media!
How could your testingprogram not have revealed this?
Im flabbergasted.
FYI I recieved my cam today and I am indeed a happy costumer.
I shot 20+ commercials on RED(and 1500+ on 35mm)including the "famous" Nescafé and plan to do the first entirely shot on RED feature in denmark this fall.
Best regards
JJ

How about 2k mode? Same issues there? Haven't been able to try it out for myself yet..

[Jannard]

Jim, you stated that this is now a production camera with build 16....not true yet.
While I agree that this is noisereduction and imagewise a prodution ready camera(its actually GREAT), there are simply too many build 16 issues for it to achieve that status. 3K mode is totally unusable with any recording media!
How could your testingprogram not have revealed this?
Im flabbergasted.
FYI I recieved my cam today and I am indeed a happy costumer.
I shot 20+ commercials on RED(and 1500+ on 35mm)including the "famous" Nescafé and plan to do the first entirely shot on RED feature in denmark this fall.
Best regards
JJ

I think you mis-read what I thought I said. The release Build 16 makes this a production camera (which will happen before one needs to make a delivery decision on August 1st). It was in this context that I spoke (wrote) those words.

I'm flabbergasted that you didn't understand what I thought I meant... :-)

Jim

[C.H.Haskell]

Hi folks...just directed/produced a 48 hour short over the weekend that served as a test for our 1781. We beet up on 16 pretty hard over the last 48 hours and 4k 2:1 at 24fps to RED drive was rock solid the whole time. The only hicup I noticed was the 1080p playback stability needs tuning and sorry if this has been mentioned already...I have not been reading the forums much. In 1080p playback we would get a "rocketio playback error"...and a green LCD or image that looked zoomed or cropped and glitchy...QUICK FIX: Switch back to 720 playback.

I have not slept much, time for rest...if you NY folks are around the Sunshine theatre (houston) this thursday then come by at 9 for the show.
Thanks RED team for the continued support. Best

[Jarred Land]

Congratts on the project Haskell... glad you made it through it, and thanks for the feedback. I was wondering what happened to you the last couple days :)

Make sure you post the film when you can...

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Jarred, it was one hellofa exercise...Clayton Harper (lordnumberzero) DPed and will be sharing images soon.

Jarred can you suggest a proper SD output setting in Final cut pro? We have some heavy stair casing on sharp edges when going to SD and I know I have read about this issue here but it was never a concern of mine as I never thought I would EVER deliver in SD but this is the 48 hour requirement unfortunately! This is my 1st time going from RED to SD delivery and hopefully my last :)

[Uli Plank]

I'm not Jarred, but I'll try to chime in:
Are you sure you didn't introduce interlace somewhere in FCP? Sometimes it'll misinterpret footage or sequence settings when downscaling.

If not, I'd give the freeware MPEG Streamclip from Italy a try, it does excellent downscales with it's FIR filter.

Regards,

Uli

[Jarred Land]

I would try as nomad suggests.. make sure your export settings are correct. Or.. as I do.. export your movie as 2k, and then use After Effects or equivelent to do the scaling.. AE has in my opinion a much better, faster scaling engine than FCP does.. but I say that without adequate comparison experience to really back that up.

[Nick Shaw]

FCP has a tendency to assume footage at video sizes and frame rates is interlaced unless you tell it otherwise. Make sure your timeline settings are set to "fields=none", and your clips are interpreted as "fields=none" before you put them in the timeline, or FCP may well de-interlace them. If a clip is already in the timeline, select it, press CMD-9 and set "fields=none".

This may be enough, but as others have said, After effects, Shake etc have much better scaling than FCP, but are obviously much slower.

[Uli Plank]

After Effects is good and fast, but MPEG Streamclip is good, free and fast …

[Stuart English]

Here's what I found.

Not working in REDCODE 28:

CF - 3K - 59.94
CF - 4K - 29.97


Not working in REDCODE 36:

CF - 3K - 50.00
CF - 3K - 59.94
CF - 4K - 29.97
Drive - 3K - 59.94


I guess thats this is because of the code not being optimized for speed?

No those are correct, this is unchanged compared to B15 - the issue is the speed of the media.

See page 45 in the Operations Guide

[Stuart English]

3K mode is totally unusable with any recording media! How could your testing program not have revealed this?

Jens, can you send me a PM about your 3K experiences please ? Something abnormal is going on if that is true.

[MikeCurtis]

Hey all!

Been buried in work for about 3 months, haven't been posting.

Tracking all this build 16 stuff and loving it.

Saw the samples of b15 vs b16 and noise in the blue channel, was wondering if anyone has noticed or measured any change in data rates with build 16. To the person who set up that test shot - would you mind please double checking the data rates on those shots?

Anybody else notice/test?

Thank you very much if you manage to find the time.

-mike

[Pawel Achtel]

you need to hold down the undo button when you hit record for pre-record to work.

undo (shift) record turns pre-record on (yellow timecode), hit record again and tc turns red and your speeding.

Is it possible to trigger pre-record remotely, like in an underwater housing?
Is it possible to assign the SHIFT key to one of the GPIO triggers?

[Michael Ragen]

I've been playing with some b16 dpx's in after effects and noticed what looks to be a sharpening artifact. This was exported from the newest Redalert at 1k to dpx but the artifact is also present in a 3k dpx image. OLPF was set to none.

Is there a bug in the new Redalert that doesn't allow you to turn of sharpening? These are screengrabs from the 100% view in after effects from the 1k dpx sequence. One is the plain image and the other has the curves adjusted so you can see the outline.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/171_1214351525.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/171_1214351552.jpg

Btw, build 16 is awesome.

Edit, here is an example right in Redalert. Just adjusted the curves. OLPF off.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/171_1214351992.jpg

[Jannard]

I've been playing with some b16 dpx's in after effects and noticed what looks to be a sharpening artifact. This was exported from the newest Redalert at 1k to dpx but the artifact is also present in a 3k dpx image. OLPF was set to none.

Is there a bug in the new Redalert that doesn't allow you to turn of sharpening? These are screengrabs from the 100% view in after effects from the 1k dpx sequence. One is the plain image and the other has the curves adjusted so you can see the outline.


Btw, build 16 is awesome.

Edit, here is an example right in Redalert. Just adjusted the curves. OLPF off.

If OLPF is off, all sharpening is off. There is none in camera. This is pretty weird though... can we get the original r3d file? Maybe Jarred or Deanan can PM you with details on how to do that.

Jim

[Deanan]

I'll PM you with upload instructions.

[Deanan]

Can you also email us a screen shot of redalert?

[Mike Prevette]

I Just got done dealing with some footage that has very similar artifacts. It was a green screen shoot, Build15, and it looked like there was some kind of edge enhancement going on. I assumed it was a result of the compression scheme changing rate between the largely un-detailed Green screen and the high detail actor.

[Jannard]

I Just got done dealing with some footage that has very similar artifacts. It was a green screen shoot, Build15, and it looked like there was some kind of edge enhancement going on. I assumed it was a result of the compression scheme changing rate between the largely un-detailed Green screen and the high detail actor.

This is not normal... please contact Deanan to help us figure this out.

Jim

[Michael Ragen]

uploading a 3k clip now. this appears in 4k stuff as well though. thanks for the quick response.

[Deanan]

Hey Deadmike,
I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Are you seeing it in photoshop as well as AE?

MikeP, can you send me more details?

Thanks!

[Mike Prevette]

Deanan,

I will pull the files when I get into the office tomorrow, and make sure I'm not smoking crack.

[Michael Ragen]

i can see it right in redalert.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/171_1214375165.jpg

[Jannard]

That's quite a curve!

What happens when you select Debayer detail to off? I assume that Deanan has access to the RAW file?

We will look at this closely...

Jim

[Michael Ragen]

The image looks exactly the same when I set Debayer detail to Leading Lady.
It is also there under all gamma settings. As far as I can tell it is present on all the files I have shot with a high contrast.

I sent Deanan the R3D file.

[Deanan]

I can see what you're seeing now but it doesn't look like sharpening to me.
When you take the edge (which has flare blending around the foreground edge from the bright background) and make part of the smooth dark with the curve, you're making a false ring around subject.

[Michael Ragen]

Maybe thats what's happening. Here is another example. It seems weird that the dark outline travels from one object to another if it was just a highlighted rim of the object.

I'm definitely no artifact expert, so you could be right, it just seemed odd to me.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/171_1214377580.jpg

Are you guys at Red able to recreate this effect with any footage you have?

[Peter Majtan]

Maybe I am out of water here, as I don't have a RED (yet), but I did a test on a RAW file from my Canon-30D without any sharpening and when I have applied such a extreme (negative reverse) curve this is what I got (notice the similar effect in the high contrast areas - especially where white meets other colors). Could this be because of the curve? Do You notice anything disturbing when You look at the footage without the curve so heavily deformed? Deforming the curve in such a way could actually cause induced sharpening...:

http://www.derylgroup.com/downloads/KETCHFRAME/FARO.jpg (http://www.derylgroup.com/downloads/KETCHFRAME/)

[Uli Plank]

Hi folks,

just relax and enjoy:

This is solarization! You get exactly the same effect with film when flashing it during development. What you are seeing is no artefact from camera or RedAlert, it's just the inversion part of the curve doing this, or to put it more precisely it's the return point.

Nothing you can blame Red for…

Regards,

Uli

[Uli Plank]

One more thing:

Having tried such curves on footage from other electronic cameras, it just shows me how clean the signal from Red One is. I've never seen such smooth edges from any other camera but analog film…

Regards,

Uli

[Tim Schumann]

We had Red info sessions over the last two nights down at Lemac in Melbourne (Australia) and what we saw of Build 16 looks really impressive.

Ted brought along his B16 camera and took us through a bunch of things.

*The RedSPACE and RAW viewing options for monitoring on set. This is a feature that we have been after for a while as monitoring off Rec709 doesn't give you a real representation of when your highlights are actually clipping on the sensor. These are a big improvement and we are very happy to see them arrive... the only tweak to these that we would request would be the ability to send different signals to different outputs. RAW to the camera monitoring outputs (EVF, LCD and or HDSDI for example) and something more like a Rec709 (or any other director friendly LUT) to the director's monitor via HDSDI, or HDMI, at the same time.

*Latitude and sensitivity improvements on the new build is apparent even from just viewing it on the LCD. Can't wait to get out and shoot some tests on it.

*New versions of RedALERT and RedCINE appear to be working with Build16 without any major problems as ye (got RedCINE working after you left Ted)

*Bug - We came up with a slight shutter issue when Ted switched to 360º shutter and couldn't get it out of that setting afterwards but then fixed this problem by reloading the second part of the Build 16 upgrade from a CF card.

*We also watched a reel of beautiful looking Red Filmouts and some other digital reels of footage that Ted brought with him - a lot of audience members who certainly were skeptical of Red up until recently were converted.

That's about all I can think of for now. Will report back more when we upgrade one of our cameras to test this new build more thoroughly. if anyone is interested in looking at photos from the night then check them out at www.lemac.com.au

[Deanan]

One can get the same effect in non-red images also. Anything that has a transition from one color to another (like a slightly blurry edge) will show the same lines as long as the transition falls in the same range as the dip in the curves.

[James Brundige]

Phantom power does not work. Preamps still sound pathetic.

[Michael Ragen]

Thanks guys. Sorry if I scared anyone. Must have been a combination of shooting too much and not enough sleep. :wacko:

[SF Geek]

Phantom power does not work. Preamps still sound pathetic.

Yikes. I wasn't able to do a sound test yesterday.

[James Brundige]

I have read here about some mics working. My Neumans do not. Should work with a mixer and line feed to the red, but I have not tested it.

[ATF]

Hello,

My Rode NTG-2 shotgun microphone is working with phantom power. However every time you reboot, the phantom power is reset to off.

Thanks,

ATF

[Greg M]

Phantom power does not work. Preamps still sound pathetic.

Are you using the Red Cable?
If you use line in and the Red cable, the quality is decent.

Mic in has noise

Phantom Power is not yet enabled.

[Dave Dessel]

I'm sorry is this was already posted. This Sunday I shot several segments for a new TV show with Build 16. All I can say is thanks for the new camera, you guys are awesome. The new image is phenominal. The camera and Red drives worked perfectly during the entire shoot. When B15 was loaded I was not able to play back shots from the Red Drive without the rig crashing. This issue is now gone with B16, so to me 16 seems more stable than the previous build.

The only thing that was odd was that my EVF did not match the Red LCD or the Panasonic 17" montor that we had on set. The EVF looked excessively magenta. If luminance levels changed within the shot, the EFV would change contrast and brightness levels on its own like an auto iris. Also, the colors are very saturated, and depending on the shot look a bit posterized when the EVF overexposes the scene.

Images that visually looked overexposed in the EVF looked fine on the Red LCD and on the Panny monitor. The raw files are also perfect and do not represent the approximately one-stop overexposure the EFV portrayed.

The resolution of the EVF is astounding but the inaccurate representation of the image is a major distraction and not a confidence builder while shooting.

It would be great to be able to tweak the EVF image as needed, and lock the setting in place.

All this being said, I love this camera. Build 16 is beyond incredible. Much thanks for all of the hard work.

-Dave Dessel

[Vince Arvidson]

I've been working through build 16 this afternoon for the first time and am loving the improvements! The image is breathtakingly clean and I love that the lcd banding is gone in all but the most extreme circumstances.

One potential bug is with the shutter settings. With a 23.98 timebase (and view set to REDspace) going past a 180 degree shutter doesn't increase the exposure. The shutter degree in the evf/ lcd turns changes to 360 and turns red but the image doesn't get brighter.

If variable frame rate is enabled then the exposure brightens when the shutter goes to 360. Also interesting is that the exposure changes in increments (as though it is stepping from 180 to 200 to 220 etc) but the readout remains constant at a red 360.

Anyone else having this problem?

Vince

[Stuart English]

I've been working through build 16 this afternoon for the first time and am loving the improvements! The image is breathtakingly clean and I love that the lcd banding is gone in all but the most extreme circumstances.

One potential bug is with the shutter settings. With a 23.98 timebase (and view set to REDspace) going past a 180 degree shutter doesn't increase the exposure. The shutter degree in the evf/ lcd turns changes to 360 and turns red but the image doesn't get brighter.

If variable frame rate is enabled then the exposure brightens when the shutter goes to 360. Also interesting is that the exposure changes in increments (as though it is stepping from 180 to 200 to 220 etc) but the readout remains constant at a red 360.

Do you have OPEN GATE selected? When the shutter value is in red text, the camera is telling you that its not able to perform the request that you have made of it.... The reason I ask about OPEN GATE is that it doubles the sensor capture frame rate, so shutter angles above 180 degrees (i.e 1/48th sec at 24 fps) are no longer available, as the sensor is operating at 48 fps in this case....

[Stuart English]

The only thing that was odd was that my EVF did not match the Red LCD or the Panasonic 17" montor that we had on set. The ...colors are very saturated, and depending on the shot look a bit posterized when the EVF overexposes the scene.

There is a bug in the current Beta Build 16 that can cause the wrong gamma to be selected for the RED-EVF.

That can be a cause of the saturation error you describe; it should be fixed in the next beta build.

[Dave Dessel]

There is a bug in the current Beta Build 16 that can cause the wrong gamma to be selected for the RED-EVF.

That can be a cause of the saturation error you describe; it should be fixed in the next beta build.


Coolness...and thanks.

-DD

[Vince Arvidson]

Do you have OPEN GATE selected? When the shutter value is in red text, the camera is telling you that its not able to perform the request that you have made of it.... The reason I ask about OPEN GATE is that it doubles the sensor capture frame rate, so shutter angles above 180 degrees (i.e 1/48th sec at 24 fps) are no longer available, as the sensor is operating at 48 fps in this case....

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your response, I had just found open gate in the op's manual and was going to post an answer to my own question, but you beat me to it!

Vince

[blueapplesmedia]

I just did a shoot exclusively using the RED drive (2k 16:9 96fps), with B16. We were triggering the camera with a Panavision FIZ. I noticed that when the camera sat still for more than 10 minutes or so, when it was put into record, I would get a record error. My suspicion was that the drive is spinning down when it's not been used after a few minutes. Is that true? I tried using playback to spin up the drive if it had been a while between takes, but on two occasions, after the first error, the camera repeated the record error on the very next take. I'd love to know if anyone else experiences this issue.

[Antoine Baumann]

I noticed that when the camera sat still for more than 10 minutes or so, when it was put into record, I would get a record error.

No haven't experienced that. I have let the camera for something like 1 hour still and then recorded without codec error. Personnaly I was only able to break the codec once, today during testing. I really cannot imagine why. The error stayed a few seconds, and when I shot the exact same scene just after it went well. No more codec error since.

Hopefully this will be fixed by build 16 release.

thanks,
antoine.

[Tai Wah Lim]

B16
500ASA
113 fps, Redcode28, Red CF card.
Two occasions during the shot that some bad frames will be introduced.

[Tai Wah Lim]

B16
500ASA
113 fps, Redcode28, Red CF card.
Two occasions during the shot that some bad frames will be introduced.

Wonder if anyone else has this same experience? Lim

[Tai Wah Lim]

Wonder if anyone else has this same experience? Lim

I am waiting to be able to get on the RedRelay to upload the quicktime movie to show the bad frames interspersed between the good frames. Lim

[Nate Clapp]

playback in camera:
don't know if this is a bug or a feature-but clips play back based on current metadata, not the metadata the clip was shot in.
for example shot a test clip at 1000asa and one at 200asa- both properly exposed for that asa. when i played back the first clip it was dark- until i changed the ASA of camera back to 1000 asa. Again, in certain ways it can be a feature- look at different ASAs after you have already shot something in camera, but also can cause momentary fright- "hey! it wasn't that dark when i shot it!"

[el_stupido]

One piece of advice I can to help with the confusion, and its what I do here, is to take the camera and set it up right beside the system you use to process R3D files.

Point the camera at something with a nice range of contrast ( a bit of blow out, something just under blow out, and dark dark dark shadows) , take a shot and leave the camera on. Open the files in Red Alert, and compare what is going with the histograms etc.

Its much easier to put the connection together when you can directly compare what you see on your camera, to what you see in Red Alert and final output, and it will help build a little confidence (hopefully)

I wonder if you could port a shell app of what you've just said above so that connected by the USB, you could rig an iPhone to do the same thing but feeding the vision to the iPhone. It's prob not powerful enough.

[Television]

Purely clerical, but the main site (red.com) needs its faq updated to reflect the new features. Us Red-savvy types may already know that stuff but, as we all know, there's a ton of misinformation (usually from haters) out there.

[Chosei Funahara]

I just updated to Build 16 v3.1.5
One thing that I noticed, joystick's behavior changed.
When I set up:
System> Sound>
joystick moves to the right is fine, but to the left, I have to press down, then to move joystick to left.
It needs a little trick, I think it a bug.

[Chosei Funahara]

Otherwise, incredible, so much better than B15, I shot about 20 minutes with Grad-ND.6 and Grad-ND.3, interior and exterior, It's beautiful.
I did shot v3.1.2, but I can see the real result now.
I'm so happy about it.


I just updated to Build 16 v3.1.5
One thing that I noticed, joystick's behavior changed.
When I set up:
System> Sound>
joystick moves to the right is fine, but to the left, I have to press down, then to move joystick to left.
It needs a little trick, I think it a bug.

[Steve Thomson]

Jim, Why has the minimum shutter speed in Timelapse been reduced to 1/2 a second?
Us time-lapsers like to shoot 1 or even 5 second shutter speeds sometimes.
Also - why when shooting with a 1/3 shutter speed will the camera not manage to record a full 3 frames per second?

[Paul Leeming]

B16
500ASA
113 fps, Redcode28, Red CF card.
Two occasions during the shot that some bad frames will be introduced.
From other posts here, I think 113fps might be on the ragged edge of performance as far as recording to the CF cards goes. Probably more so with high detail, contrast scenes like the example you show. Try the same scene backed off to 110fps and see if it happens again. My guess is it won't, based on feedback here. also you could try recording to the RedDrive if you have one.

HTH

Paul

[cinepost35]

I posted a similar question but would like to post here to Jim or anyone at Red, For those out there that find Anamorphic useful it would be very useful if you could select 48fps in 2K and 3K as a shooting speed. Any chance of that being a choice in Build 16 Release?

[Stuart English]

I posted a similar question but would like to post here to Jim or anyone at Red, For those out there that find Anamorphic useful it would be very useful if you could select 48fps in 2K and 3K as a shooting speed. Any chance of that being a choice in Build 16 Release?

As a Project TIME BASE or a Varispeed? You already have the latter, what's your application for the former?

[Tai Wah Lim]

From other posts here, I think 113fps might be on the ragged edge of performance as far as recording to the CF cards goes. Probably more so with high detail, contrast scenes like the example you show. Try the same scene backed off to 110fps and see if it happens again. My guess is it won't, based on feedback here. also you could try recording to the RedDrive if you have one.

HTH

Paul

Paul, I suspect what you said could be the cause. Red has taken note, as always with all our feedbacks, and is investigating. It is always a good feeling that when we do battle in the front line, we will not be left behind. - Lim

[cinepost35]

As a Project TIME BASE or a Varispeed? You already have the latter, what's your application for the former?

48 fps Digital Cinema in both 2k and 4k deliverables. 3K@48 for 4K@24 fps

Project time base might make it easier to sync multiple cameras.

[cinepost35]

Stuart...Would 24 Timebase Tri-Level synced Reds stay in sync both running 48fps in varispeed?

[roryhinds]

I noticed on Build 16 3.1.2 you could only go up to 47fps at 3k 16:9 RC36 and not the full 48fps...

Has this been fixed in 3.1.5?

[SF Geek]

I thought you couldn't go over 30 fps in 4k. I'll check.

[SF Geek]

Yeah, if you can get over 30fps in any 4k mode then I'll trade you cameras.

[roryhinds]

sorry meant to say 3k and not 4k

[TOM K. JONES]

I just want to say a few nice words as a new and most delightedly gleeful member of the Red family.
From the moment it arrived the Red has delivered as promised. No hiccups,
dropped frames and or other tantrums. Having waited for a later build I know I benefit from the long struggles of not only the Red team, but early owners. And now with build 16, I can offer clients a practical and affordable work flow. All test from stem to stern on the Red have been a success and repeatable. Our only struggle are the vendors and back orders, so finding temporary camera support has been challanging but not impossible.

Well done to all for this most marvelous camera, and especially thanks to my oldest and dearest friend Erik Bien who badgered, educated, and pleaded for me to buy this camera!!! Again, thanks for reviving my heart and an old but not forgotten career.

Here is our first test outting, we'll have more by end of week, as well as the rest of our reel on Vimeo and the unboxing:

http://www.vimeo.com/1237723

Tom K. Jones
MULESKINNERFILMS
#1880 "the clapp"

[TOM K. JONES]

..oh and sorry for the sloppy posting.. I promise I'll get better

[Erik Bien]

Well done to all for this most marvelous camera, and especially thanks to my oldest and dearest friend Erik Bien who badgered, educated, and pleaded for me to buy this camera!!! Again, thanks for reviving my heart and an old but not forgotten career.

*BLUSH* *SNIFF* That was beautiful ...

(Please don't anybody tell him I could never justify dropping that kind of dough on a camera myself, thus I had no choice but to arm-twist a buddy into buying one for me to play with!) :)

Seriously, what a great first post to un-lurk with: welcome to REDuser!

[TOM K. JONES]

..I heard that you bastard..

[Kholi Hicks]

CONSENSUS VOTE PLEASE:

Is Build 16 ready/safe for paying work yet? Has anyone experienced anything with the latest release that would deter them from working with this in the field?

[Jannard]

We have one more update coming in the next couple of days that addresses some nagging issues.

Jim

[Kholi Hicks]

Thanks Jannard. I'm anxious to slap B16 on the cameras but 15 has been so rock solid for the past while that it's kind-of a scare to jump to the awesomeness that is 16.

Can't wait til it's undoubtedly field ready!

[Kjetil Haugen]

We have one more update coming in the next couple of days that addresses some nagging issues.

Jim

Could you elaborate on what these fixes are? I'm really struggling with the decision to upgrade to 16 during the last week of production. We've been getting these codec errors pretty much every day for two weeks now but from what I've heard, the errors are worse than ever for some and not there at all for others on 16. Really want the crew to see a working camera before we wrap.

I'm digging the new stuff in 16 though. Just unsure what to do now. It's said that beta 16 is more reliable than release 15. But then why is release 15 even a release build. And how can anybody say that you shouldn't use a beta build on a commercial production when the release build is more beta than the beta.

Not being negative here. Just need some guidance. I'd stay with 15 easily if it was as stable for me as it has been for others... but it's not.

[Tico Llaurador]

If started up within an environment where there is relatively strong light coming into the lens, the camera will hang on boot and reboot itself over and over again. If the lens is either stopped down or capped at startup, the camera boots right up and take awesomely beautiful pictures (thank you). This has happened in both B15 and B16 just the same. Haven't checked with the latest B16 build, since I've become used to capping the lens on boot.

Seems like a boot POST or pre-operational diagnostic process quirk to me. Like I say, once it boots, the image quality is downright exquisite.

Just a heads-up...

[Troy Smith]

HI All,

I cannot get our 2 cameras to upgrade to b16, in the read me it says that we need to have at least b15 v2.2.8, we have a earlier version of 15 and cannot find this build anywhere on red.com/support, latest b15 version we can find is b15 2.2.5, we tried b16 3.1.2 and 3.1.5 both will not update.
any help on this appreciated.

Thanks
Stricko

[Andrae Palmer]

HI All,

I cannot get our 2 cameras to upgrade to b16, in the read me it says that we need to have at least b15 v2.2.8, we have a earlier version of 15 and cannot find this build anywhere on red.com/support, latest b15 version we can find is b15 2.2.5, we tried b16 3.1.2 and 3.1.5 both will not update.
any help on this appreciated.

Thanks
Stricko

The pre-build is included with the b16 update... you will find it in a separate folder.

[Troy Smith]

The pre-build is included with the b16 update... you will find it in a separate folder.

Thanks alot, how blind I am.

Regards Stricko

[Andrae Palmer]

Thanks alot, how blind I am.

Regards Stricko

Happened to me too. :)

[cinepost35]

We have one more update coming in the next couple of days that addresses some nagging issues.

Jim

Any chance of squeaking one more frame a second out of 3K 16:9 Redcode36 to get from 47 to 48 fps the benefits would be HUGE ?

[number6]

We have one more update coming in the next couple of days that addresses some nagging issues.

Jim

Does this mean that Build 16 is almost ready for release? Should one get the balance of one's money on the way if one wants one's cameras to be shipped immediately upon release of Build 16? HmmmmM?

[Uli Plank]

Any chance of squeaking one more frame a second out of 3K 16:9 Redcode36 to get from 47 to 48 fps the benefits would be HUGE ?

Why? Who's going to see the difference?

Regards,

Uli

[R. Gonzales]

I have done this twice now (on purpose)

This is FYI:

Set up a time lapse sequence ie:
5 sec interval
1fr
Speed 1/2 sec

Then I go into the sensor menu and set the shutter speed to 1/24.

I start recording then I stop and try to access the sensor menu and Freeze. . . Camera locks up (sometimes the camera says there is no sensor).

Shut down and restart, everything is fine until I try to access sensor menu again. The camera locks up.

Cycle the camera and this time access the system menu, then set-up, maintenance, then restore.

Everything works fine. Ive got some great time lapse.



Method

[Mark Pugh]

If the lens is either stopped down or capped at startup, the camera boots right up

Wow - great detective work. I haven't heard this one. Thanks very much for the post.

[Ben Holmes]

Why? Who's going to see the difference?

Regards,

Uli

Because it's exactly double the frame rate of 24fps. It would make a difference wherever maths is required for vfx work etc. Just a guess on my part..

Ben

[Uli Plank]

Sorry, maybe the problem is on my side, but I don't get the point. A frame is a frame, at whatever rate, a time-slice of reality.
You playback speed is fixed anyway, like 24 fps for cinema.

Regards,

Uli

[Stuart English]

Set up a time lapse sequence ie:
5 sec interval
1fr
Speed 1/2 sec

Then I go into the sensor menu and set the shutter speed to 1/24.

I start recording then I stop and try to access the sensor menu and Freeze. . . Camera locks up (sometimes the camera says there is no sensor).

Shut down and restart, everything is fine until I try to access sensor menu again. The camera locks up.

Cycle the camera and this time access the system menu, then set-up, maintenance, then restore.

Which version of Build 16 Method? Is that 3.1.2 or 3.1.5?

[Peter Majtan]

Not necessarily. Actual 35mm film is being projected at 48 FPS with every frame flashing twice on the screen. Hence the "film look". Also DCI specs include 48 FPS and especially with digital it seems like way to go in the future. Back compatible with 24 FPS (with simple 2:1 throw away), but will allow for much smoother motion, especially on a big screen...

I am all for 48 FPS...

[R. Gonzales]

Which version of Build 16 Method? Is that 3.1.2 or 3.1.5?

Hey Stuart
it was Build 16 version 3.1.2

Method

[David Battistella]

Hey Rion,

I'll try to duplicate this on my RED as well.

I'll post here or call if I can duplicate it on B16 3.1.5.

David

[Truls]

Don't know if it the software or hardware. Have upgraded to b16.
Got my evf the other day and found it had 2 very annoying problems. One might be a "get use to it" problem. It's the so called "rainbow" effect where if u pan your eyes you see the image split up in RGB.
The other problem is that the evf (and not the lcd or recorded image) seems to change color on the fly all the time. Like I had a scen with white sheets and i just put my hand in the frame and the picture turned slightly green. After I first notised it of course I started see the changes all the time. I shot a man walking around in a room with diffrent backgrounds and his face changed color all the time. When reviewing it i saw nothing of the changes either in evf or lcd.
Anyone notised the same thing?

Truls sweden
RED #528

[Stuart English]

The other problem is that the evf (and not the lcd or recorded image) seems to change color on the fly all the time. Like I had a scene with white sheets and i just put my hand in the frame and the picture turned slightly green. After I first notised it of course I started see the changes all the time. I shot a man walking around in a room with diffrent backgrounds and his face changed color all the time. When reviewing it i saw nothing of the changes either in evf or lcd.

Lets see if we can take one variable out of this equation - can you turn DARK DETAIL off on the viewfinder and repeat that test?