How are we going to record 4K in terms of (v) X (h) pixel count?

[Andrew M.]

Maybe I missed it, but what will be the recording format in terms of horizontal pixel count?

Can we presume that 4K will be always recorded as a 4096 RGB pixels and 2K will always have 2048 and 1080 will have 1980?

Vertical pixel count will depend from the aspect ration, I presume.

RAW is raw so it will be as it comes from the Misterium.

[Graeme Nattress]

4k is 4096 x 2304, which is 16:9 as the chip is 16:9. High speed port allows up to 4520x2540, but REDCODE RAW is limited to the 4k 4096x2304. 2k is 2048x1152.

Graeme

[Andrew M.]

4k is 4096 x 2304, which is 16:9 as the chip is 16:9. High speed port allows up to 4520x2540, but REDCODE RAW is limited to the 4k 4096x2304. 2k is 2048x1152.

Graeme

Thanks! Graeme.

[Sean]

I've never figured out why we refer to 1920x1080 resolution as 1080 (i.e., the lower vertical resolution), and 1280x720 as 720 (again the lower vertical resolution), but when speaking about 4096x2304 and 2048x1152 we refer to it as 4K and 2K respectively (suddenly using the higher horizontal resolution for reference). Not on topic of the thread, but I just gotta know...fully expecting the answer to be painfully obvious to all but me.

[jbeale]

I know that 1920x1080 and 1280x720 are HDTV broadcast specs, coming from the television world it is a different lineage than the 2k and 4k numbers which are from scanned film in the cinema postproduction world. In TV, at least the original analog TV you always counted the number of scanlines (what matches up to vertical pixel count nowadays) because there was no exact number of horizontal "pixels" defined really, it was just an analog signal without discrete pixels.

[Andrew M.]

4k is 4096 x 2304, which is 16:9 as the chip is 16:9. High speed port allows up to 4520x2540, but REDCODE RAW is limited to the 4k 4096x2304. 2k is 2048x1152.

Graeme

What is REDCODE RAW data input from Misterium then?

Full 4520x2540 ( red users jargon “4.5K”)
Or
4096x2304 ?
Or
We will have a choice, 4.5K or 4K when recording to REDCODE RAW ?

Andrew

[Anders Holck]

REDCODE RAW is always 1:1 pixel mapping from the sensor. The max resolution, 4k is 4096x2304 cropped from the full sensor of 4520x2540. So "the data input" is 4096x2304.

[Andrew M.]

Are you sure?

In such a case can we get RAW RAW from the high speed port to the computer and in REDCINE downres 4.5K to 4K?

[Steve Gibby]

RED Team mentioned previously: No 2540p REDCODE RAW. Highest resolution/format for RC RAW is 4k. 2540p ("4.5k") can be recorded in uncompressed RAW via the RAW data port only.

EDIT: I see Anders is faster on the keyboard than me...He's a "Spec Meister Extraordinaire"!

EDIT2: I now see that I basically posted the same thing as Graeme did in Post #2 of this page.

LOL...It's been a long night and I'm leaving for Las Vegas in a few hours....

[Andrew M.]

RED Team mentioned previously: No 2540p REDCODE RAW. Highest resolution/format for RC RAW is 4k. 2540p ("4.5k") can be recorded in uncompressed RAW via the RAW data port only.

EDIT: I see Anders is faster on the keyboard than me...

Thanks! Gibby and Anders
Would be nice to have (4520 / 4096 ) -1 = 9.38% oversampling though.

I know, it was initially designed that 4096 is a safe area and 4520 is VF area,
but still it would be nice for some fine patterns that do not want to go away, to have oversampling.
Do you know if it is possible in REDCINE?

[laguun]

I've never figured out why we refer to 1920x1080 resolution as 1080 (i.e., the lower vertical resolution), and 1280x720 as 720 (again the lower vertical resolution), but when speaking about 4096x2304 and 2048x1152 we refer to it as 4K and 2K respectively (suddenly using the higher horizontal resolution for reference). Not on topic of the thread, but I just gotta know...fully expecting the answer to be painfully obvious to all but me.

simple, because we cinemafolks like to show off.. :)

has been done that way traditionally, broadcast being vertical, cinema horizontal. makes more sense as well as you have to deal with much more side aspect ratios movietheathers and prints to film.

http://celco.com/FormatResolutionTable4K.asp

gives a good insight in the different aspect ratios.

[lumiere]

I've never figured out why we refer to 1920x1080 resolution as 1080 (i.e., the lower vertical resolution), and 1280x720 as 720 (again the lower vertical resolution), but when speaking about 4096x2304 and 2048x1152 we refer to it as 4K and 2K respectively (suddenly using the higher horizontal resolution for reference). Not on topic of the thread, but I just gotta know...fully expecting the answer to be painfully obvious to all but me.

Because no-one would remember 2304p or 1152p, 4K and 2K are easier to remember.

[Steve Gibby]

Because no-one would remember 2304p or 1152p, 4K and 2K are easier to remember.

LOL...you're probably right about that Frederic!

Are you going to, or at NAB?

[Brook Willard]

Thanks! Gibby and Anders
Would be nice to have (4520 / 4096 ) -1 = 9.38% oversampling though.

Not possible... RAW does not scale.


I know, it was initially designed that 4096 is a safe area and 4520 is VF area,
but still it would be nice for some fine patterns that do not want to go away, to have oversampling.
Do you know if it is possible in REDCINE?

If you want to shoot 4.5K, you'll need the RAW data port and a big honkin' RAID. Then you can do whatever you'd like in REDCINE.

[Andrew M.]

Yes, RAW to RAW and REDRAW to REDRAW don’t have to scale, can’t think of any practical use of such scaling, unless REDRAW will become standard for future Blue Ray Plus playback. 27Mbytes speed for home theater presentation would be the ultimate solution.

But RAW RAW to RGB if it scales would be great for 4.5K to 4K

Does it really scales like this in REDCINE?

We are taking high speed port option so it is dream come true.

Is there a difference between REDCODE RAW and REDCODE?
REDCODE RAW -> one channel?
REDCODE -> 3 channel? (RGB)

Andrew

[Jeff Kilgroe]

But RAW RAW to RGB if it scales would be great for 4.5K to 4K

REDCINE will allow this if I understood everything Rob and Graeme have said. You capture your uncompressed RAW @ up to 4.5K 60fps or 2K 120fps to some sort of capable RAID system. Then use REDCINE to convert it to REDCODE RAW (if you desire, to make data sizes more manageable). You could very well convert the uncompressed 4.5K RAW to 4K REDCODE RGB or even 2K REDCODE RGB for that matter.


Is there a difference between REDCODE RAW and REDCODE?
REDCODE RAW -> one channel?
REDCODE -> 3 channel? (RGB)

REDCODE is the codec application and within are REDCODE RAW (compressed RAW) and REDCODE RGB (comrpessed RGB). the RAW variant is most likely not an editing format -- unless something has changed.

All the juicy bits should be less than 24 hours away. :)

[Jim Arthurs]

REDCODE is the codec application and within are REDCODE RAW (compressed RAW) and REDCODE RGB (comrpessed RGB). the RAW variant is most likely not an editing format -- unless something has changed.

All the juicy bits should be less than 24 hours away. :)

Actually, I was under the impression that REDCODE RAW could be loaded directly into various NLE/softwares as it shows up as a QT format as well... just like CineForm under AVI, with various levels of realtime playback depending on whether you're using full-sized, half-scale, quarter-scale settings...

I could be wrong, or mis-heard, and it wouldn't be the first time....

Yes, 24 hours away... and if the flight isn't late tomorrow morning I'll be standing with the mob at 8:55 AM, waiting as the doors open to the South Hall...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Actually, I was under the impression that REDCODE RAW could be loaded directly into various NLE/softwares as it shows up as a QT format as well... just like CineForm under AVI, with various levels of realtime playback depending on whether you're using full-sized, half-scale, quarter-scale settings...

Yes, Graeme has said that on several occasions that any QT supporting application could load REDCODE RAW clips. However he has also said that it's "not an editing format".

I'm guessing that REDCODE RAW can be manipulated for color grading and editing can be done in the form of cuts, but to do any alterations beyond that such as composites, transitions, etc.. that would require rendering, then we would have to render out to RGB. Goes along with being unable to scale or alter RAW sensor data and why all the scaled record modes have to be in REDCODE RGB.

[Jim Arthurs]

I'm guessing that REDCODE RAW can be manipulated for color grading and editing can be done in the form of cuts, but to do any alterations beyond that such as composites, transitions, etc.. that would require rendering, then we would have to render out to RGB. Goes along with being unable to scale or alter RAW sensor data and why all the scaled record modes have to be in REDCODE RGB.

I guess I've been too influenced in my assumptions for REDCODE RAW by the CineForm workflow model demonstrated last year at NAB, where the RAW data was used in the total NLE environment with multiple streams, each with color correction, dissolves, etc.

http://www.cineform.com/technology/CineForm_RAW.htm

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Cineform "RAW" and REDCODE "RAW" are different animals. In REDCODE, RAW is actual RAW bayer sensor data. You can apply LUTs to dictate color and adjust your exposure, latitude, etc..

With Cineform, their "RAW" is constructed from source RGB data -- be it HDV, DVCPROHD, etc.. It's not "RAW" in the same way.

[Jim Arthurs]

With Cineform, their "RAW" is constructed from source RGB data -- be it HDV, DVCPROHD, etc.. It's not "RAW" in the same way.

Actually, I think CINEFORM RAW is the original Bayer data from the SI camera, not an RGB construct...

From the link I gave;

"Recognizing the importance of new activities in digital cinematography, CineForm has developed new patent-pending technology called CineForm RAW™ to support in-camera coding of Bayer data directly, plus the necessary real-time workflow to enhance Bayer images throughout post-production. These developments allow the “developing” of the Bayer images to be delayed until much later in post-production, ensuring both highest visual quality and most creative flexibility."

And...

"Our digital negative is at the bottom layer, and the de-bayer plus color matrix layer is above. When performing simple playback of a Bayer image, we can apply the de-Bayer and color processing algorithms directly to the CineForm RAW digital negative during the decoding process, much as a “layer” is applied in Photoshop. Using this technique we haven’t actually changed the digital negative source file on disk. Further, we can delay the flattening of the layers (developing of the image) until later in post-production as part of the overall creative decision process, giving the operator freedom to manipulate de-bayer and color matrix filters at any time during post-production."

Perhaps moot in light of on-going Apple reveals, but I wanted to clear this up. CineForm RAW is Bayer data lightly compressed, ala REDCODE RAW and can be used as such in Premiere without rendering until the end.

[jbeale]

It seems that RED "raw" has the same meaning as RAW mode digital stills from DSLRs which incorporate just the native sensor Bayer pattern. If Cineform is working from RGB data I don't understand why they would call it "RAW" at all. EDIT:oops, didn't read Jim A.'s post above.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Perhaps moot in light of on-going Apple reveals, but I wanted to clear this up. CineForm RAW is Bayer data lightly compressed, ala REDCODE RAW and can be used as such in Premiere without rendering until the end.

Well that sums it up... I was just going off what has been said thus far by Graeme and the others. Hopefully they will have some huge tricks up their sleeves for tomorrow. The Apple event complete with RED connection was a nice unexpected surprise. Interesting how "REDCODE" is in the FCP6 codec list and not REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB. Perhaps the RED team has got it covered and we have nothing to fear. :)

Anyway, I'm off to do something constructive today, like clean my office. It's a friggin' stye in here.

[Andrew M.]

Thanks! Guys. It looks better and better.

BTW any 4K monitor coming out?