2 New things...

[Jarred Land]

can you see them?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_new2.jpg

[Ed Watkins]

From my camera?

New style PL flanges.
Witness mark.
... something else.. CF rods?

[Kevin Halverson]

One looks to be a wittiness mark.

[Jarred Land]

witness mark is old news....

[cinepost35]

Black Rods in metal

[Jay A. Kelley]

I go with the black rods also... Are they different in other ways? Or just black.

Also I go with the PL mount collar being different too

Jay

[Steve Sherrick]

Yeah, PL mount looks different. The grip marks are different than my PL mount.

[Steve Sherrick]

Is this a whole new PL mount or just streamlining it, improving ergonomics?

[Steve Sherrick]

Love the look of those lenses by the way.

[Nathan Garofalos]

That is the "hybrid" PL mount that was on EPIC at NAB.

[Adrian Van Rossum]

Cool new PL mount wings. This is what the old wings looked like .. I recall reading that people were taking the wing closest to the record button off because of its protrusion as people were snagging on it when adjusting the lens? You guys think of everything.

[Jarred Land]

I go with the black rods also... Are they different in other ways? Or just black.

Also I go with the PL mount collar being different too

Jay

Jay wins a cookie :)

New PL ring influenced by the EPIC lockring, and New Anodized Black aluminum Rods. New Rods and New Lock Rings should be in the store as purchase upgrades early next week.

[Adrian Van Rossum]

Forgive me, I have to ask ... will the new PL-mount collar ship on the next batch, 2001 to 2400?

[HDPioneers.com]

I want those wings. I frequently take off at least one of the existing wings as it bumps the ff, etc.

[Jarred Land]

Forgive me, I have to ask ... will the new PL-mount collar ship on the next batch, 2001 to 2400?

New Lock Rings will most likely be rolled into normal production cameras somewhere around the #3500 mark... we are just giving existing customers the ability if they want to purchase the ring earlier as it is pretty bad ass.... Price on the new Lock Ring will be $400.. and yes it is machined. Rod pricing will be inline with our existing Stainless Rods.

[Rick Darge]

Looks cool Jarred, but I'm digging my old school hooks right now..

[Adrian Van Rossum]

.. we are just giving existing customers the ability if they want to purchase the ring earlier as it is pretty bad ass...

Cool yet again .... we like options. Options are our friend.

[David Wilson]

Jay deserves at least a cookie.

Where would we be without Jay?

Cup of milk, maybe?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What does the new lock ring do for us other than a new shape which is potentially more user-friendly to the fingers?

Any tech specs to share on the aluminum rods? The rod looks nice in that picture, but I'm just curious how the anodized coating will compare with the nickel-plating on the ET ultra rods and/or if the RED rods are a similar or different grade of aluminum. What's the weight? Right now I'm digging my ET rods and RED Carbon X rods.

[Jarred Land]

What does the new lock ring do for us other than a new shape which is potentially more user-friendly to the fingers?

Any tech specs to share on the aluminum rods? The rod looks nice in that picture, but I'm just curious how the anodized coating will compare with the nickel-plating on the ET ultra rods and/or if the RED rods are a similar or different grade of aluminum. What's the weight? Right now I'm digging my ET rods and RED Carbon X rods.

The new lock rings are muchbetter on the fingers, plus much more low profile.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay deserves at least a cookie.

Where would we be without Jay?

Cup of milk, maybe?

Milk would be nice thank you.. Non-Fat please.. Gotta watch the middle before I completely lose sight of Mr. Happy!

Oops... Overshare.

Jay

[Tony Lorentzen]

You gotta be kidding, right. You "release" updates now - before I've received my camera and tell me I can't get it unless I pay $400?! Sorry, Jarred. That just doesn't seem too smart.

[Tony Lorentzen]

Nice to see the black anodized rods. I never understood why no-one was making those. Neat!

[Jay A. Kelley]

I feel your pain.. But if we follow your logic then only one of a couple of options remain:

1. At this point, no one would have a RED camera, as we all sit around waiting for them to come up with EVERYTHING they want to design at once.
2. Jarred does not release this stuff at all and follows the lead of other camera manufactures and simply includes it with the Epic, bypassing RED altogether.

Tony, this is going to happen again and again. It will always hurt a little when we have somehing and then they improve on it later, but it's better they keep pushing forward and offering the choice, than to just sit on their hands and not improve things over time.

Don't you agree?

jay

[Jarred Land]

You gotta be kidding, right. You "release" updates now - before I've received my camera and tell me I can't get it unless I pay $400?! Sorry, Jarred. That just doesn't seem too smart.

huh? its an optional upgrade you can either do or not do.... would you rather it just be a "surprise" 3 months down the road?

It is just one of many rolling upgrades we have done over the life of the RED ONE... we are just telling you about it a little early. And since we have the parts already, we are letting existing customers get in on it.

I guess I shouldn't tell you about the 16gb cards coming around the corner either then should I....

[Jay A. Kelley]

No.. I'd keep that one a secret.
:)

[Tony Lorentzen]

Hey - I totally know it's the name of the game. Just a bit sad that this is being announced before I have even received the "your camera is ready to ship" e-mail and I'm told that I won't get it unless I pay $400 (which seems a little steep, but then again ... everything is relative). I'll dig the camera with the "old" PL-mount flange.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jarred, will the black rods be lighter? Similar to ET's?

jay

[Jarred Land]

Hey - I totally know it's the name of the game. Just a bit sad that this is being announced before I have even received the "your camera is ready to ship" e-mail and I'm told that I won't get it unless I pay $400 (which seems a little steep, but then again ... everything is relative). I'll dig the camera with the "old" PL-mount flange.

Thanks Man.. Im sure you will be happy :)

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, will the black rods be lighter? Similar to ET's?

jay

Black rods are 3.7 ounces each for the 12" version. I think the Ultra Rods from ET are 4.5 ounces each.

Our Stainless 12" rods weigh 10.6 ounces each for comparison. Our Carbon X rods beat them all.. at 1.9 Ounces each.

[Brent J. Craig]

Yeah Tony. Your 17,500 ticket should qualify you for free cosmetic updates for life. Just like when you buy a nice car or a Sony camera. :blink:

Red should completely stop any sort of innovations or hardware improvements indefinitely so as not to offend existing customers.

Forget that fact that Build 16 lets you basically download a new camera for free. Those PL mount knobs are the cat's ass. People will make fun of your ghetto Red without it.

[Martin Weiss]

Red should completely stop any sort of innovations or hardware improvements indefinitely so as not to offend existing customers.
Yeah - Red announced the Red One just after we had bought our DSR-570 a couple of years back. Am still very upset about that.

(I'm kidding, just in case that is not obvious.)

What a strange week - Red has been innovating like crazy, and at the same time had to defend itself. Every single person who has received a Red One has so far gotten one that was better than at the time of ordering.

----

About those light-weight CF-Rods, I read somewhere on the forum that CF is not an ideal material for Rods; they could even explode (wasn't there a time where the Red Shop actually said something like "can explode"?)

----

Thanks for all the work & keeping up the spirit!

[Jarred Land]

Yeah - Red announced the Red One just after we had bought our DSR-570 a couple of years back. Am still very upset about that.

(I'm kidding, just in case that is not obvious.)

What a strange week - Red has been innovating like crazy, and at the same time had to defend itself. Every single person who has received a Red One has so far gotten one that was better than at the time of ordering.


I dont think that will ever end.. We get really excited about giving you guys something new and someone always will come along and yell at us for something or another.. we have gotten used to it. A few days ago the 16gb CF cards are a prime example.. after a year we finally give up and go do it ourselves, announce it, thinking everyone is gonna be doing backflips because we went through the incredible effort to pretty much jump ahead of the entire consumer flash industry, but no, we get a buncha hate mail that we are gouging customers :(




----

About those light-weight CF-Rods, I read somewhere on the forum that CF is not an ideal material for Rods; they could even explode (wasn't there a time where the Red Shop actually said something like "can explode"?)

----

Thanks for all the work & keeping up the spirit!

CF does shatter instead of bending like metal or aluminum.. but its pretty hard to do. Our Carbon X rods are actually more carbon than fiber.. and are pretty hard to destroy.

[david farland]

nice extra gear Jarred and as always nice to see Red just improving each week.
One of the best things about Red is thinking about how they'll be in the future.

After installing v16 and seeing the significant improvement over 15 made me think how Red's OS would look in 2-3 years time.
Can see it'll be so smooth..so functional!!!

All these improvements makes you realise that Red wasn't just a few guys taking a stab at a good camera but a band of men (& Kelly) committed to an masterpiece, timeless camera....(can I've the cheque now!)

Darn hard call to make an excellent functional camera with all the ergonomic polish in such a fast technological changing world.

Hopefully you'll land on a design that's timeless where only key stages need to be swapped out and your refresh rate on total new build becomes 3/4 years.

One thing, I'm guessing....like the ET breakout box, the new locking ring will be disposal for the EPIC guys?

D

[Marc Berger]

Jarred, is the new mount a technical improvement, or just nicer and with a better handling?
Thanks
Marc

[Tico Llaurador]

after a year we finally give up and go do it ourselves, announce it, thinking everyone is gonna be doing backflips because we went through the incredible effort to pretty much jump ahead of the entire consumer flash industry, but no, we get a buncha hate mail that we are gouging customers :(

"Cría cuervos y te comerán los ojos." Literally meaning- "Breed crows and they'll eat your eyes."

Or, as Confucius once said, "If RED spoils its clients, RED's clients will be spoiled."

And, as that other famous Chinese philosopher Jerry Seinfeld once said- "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"

:tongue:

[Steve Sanacore]

huh? its an optional upgrade you can either do or not do.... would you rather it just be a "surprise" 3 months down the road?

It is just one of many rolling upgrades we have done over the life of the RED ONE... we are just telling you about it a little early. And since we have the parts already, we are letting existing customers get in on it.

I guess I shouldn't tell you about the 16gb cards coming around the corner either then should I....

Well now, that's not really the same thing. The CF cards are always an extra, but the lens mount is not. It does seem like #3000+ is a long time to get to replacing the lens mount with the new design. And $400 for a part on a lens mount also seems very expensive as it is about 25% the price of the whole camera? Maybe I'm just confused.....

now I'm feeling guilty about complaining.... sorry Jarrad... you guys are really doing a fantastic job.

[Martin Weiss]

Steve, no one is forcing anyone to use the new mount.

Its an option.

The camera makes the same pictures no matter which mount.

[Martin Weiss]

You paid only 1600 for your camera?

(And 400 for a high precision/low volume product is, well, cheap.)

And a formal thank you to Jarred for keeping us in the loop. Please do continue doing so!

[Jason Ing]

Yeah Tony. Your 17,500 ticket should qualify you for free cosmetic updates for life. Just like when you buy a nice car or a Sony camera. :blink:

Red should completely stop any sort of innovations or hardware improvements indefinitely so as not to offend existing customers.

Forget that fact that Build 16 lets you basically download a new camera for free. Those PL mount knobs are the cat's ass. People will make fun of your ghetto Red without it.

Make fun of my ghetto Red?

When everyone upgrades, my Red will be "Retro Cool". :)

[Brian Reisdorf]

Maybe I'm just confused.....


Blammo

[Steven-Marc C.]

Those black rods look very interesting indeed! What sizes will they be available in?

[david farland]

Well now, that's not really the same thing. The CF cards are always an extra, but the lens mount is not. It does seem like #3000+ is a long time to get to replacing the lens mount with the new design. And $400 for a part on a lens mount also seems very expensive as it is about 25% the price of the whole camera? Maybe I'm just confused.....

I think your maths is confused....I expect you mean 2.5%

Moving on....what do you expect Red to do....give the new locking ring to all for free.
That's the natural conclusion I'd draw for everybody whinning about this.

It's an improvement...an additional item....with a cost.
So now two parts....the old version item and the new version item should cost the same as one.
Quantum physics ain't reached sales yet....sorry!

On that note there are hundred's of things that could and will be improved on the camera between when Red #1 was out..until Red #nnnnn comes.

And you guys want all those upgrades free.....phewwww. Dream on.

Let me get this straight.
You want a camera for 17K and to hold that price for 4 years with no CPI increase which means the value of that $17K will decrease and on top of that you want every upgrade free or heavily subsidised!
Am I correct?
I suggest you also make this request to any manufacturer of any item you own and tell me who comes to the party.

I could go on and on but......but guys just don't think it out.

D

[Steve Sherrick]

I can understand the initial frustration people might have about new improvements getting worked into later production cameras, but I think we all need to step back for a moment, take a deep breath and realize something very important.

If you have had your camera for a while now, as some of us have, we have had the opportunity to test the camera thoroughly, and most importantly make money off of it while everyone else waits around to receive theirs. If you have been making a lot of money with the camera, a $400 upgrade will not seem to bad to basically add a bit more streamlining. But the point is, people downstream are getting an improved camera, yes, but they have also not had the opportunity to make money yet, so it's kind of a fair tradeoff in a way.

I'm shocked that people have contacted Red and given them a hard time about the 16gb cards. Are you kidding me? We've been waiting to have these as an option for months and $550 (although not money I can throw around easily) seems like a pretty decent price. I know some people had hoped they would just replace the 8GB with the 16gb and keep the price similar, but as far as I can tell, Red had to do some work to get these cards developed, so in turn the price reflects that and we should probably be happy they went through the effort, because quite honestly 8GB is very limiting for some of the types of shooting I do. 16gb makes it more manageable and 32gb will be nice.

Maybe it's just my personality (I admit, I'm passive and very patient) but I think Red gets attacked too much. Sometimes the criticism they receive is valid and they have said as much. But other times it goes so far over the line, it has to be discouraging. I give them credit, they have thick skins.

I have tried very hard to take any issues (shipping, financial, tech related, etc) directly to Red and work with them directly. I think many would find this type of approach works very well. They are generally very responsive. But a lot of times, they get raked over the coals publicly, and again, maybe that is what some have deemed necessary to get a response, but I'm surprised based on my experiences.

Anyway, not trying to keep people from expressing their opinions, because a lot of them are valid, but whenever you can, try to take a deep breath before posting. We all signed up for something that is not typical, and there are going to be struggles, growing pains, and everything else that goes along with taking risks.

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Steve. If we screw up with customer service.. there is no excuse, and we deserve all the critisism we recieve. But we will never apologize for being innovative, and making the product as good as we can, and offering upgrades as soon as they are available.

We do not just save up all the advancements we make on a daily basis and then every 12 months package them into a brand new camera and make you customers start all over again by buying a new camera. We have taken this route since the begining, and we dont plan on changing that anytime soon.

Some upgrades are free, and some arn't, but we like to think that people appreciate the fact THEY have that decision if they choose. Maybe im wrong.

[Mark Pugh]

Jarred, is the new mount a technical improvement, or just nicer and with a better handling?
Thanks
Marc

Jarred? Can you tell us what the new mount gains us?
Thanks

[Steve Sherrick]

Some upgrades are free, and some arn't, but we like to think that people appreciate the fact THEY have that decision if they choose. Maybe im wrong.

My thoughts on this are that if the new design/new item fix something that was defective then it most certainly should be a free upgrade. If it is something that changes the design, improves the camera, but is not necessary to the camera functioning as it was designed then you are probably justified in charging an upgrade. Like you said, we have the option to buy it or not. I like free things, so I'll take as much as I can get for free, but as long as I see Red acting fairly I will not disagree with this approach.

Build 16 is interesting because it fixes some things, hence should be free, but it also adds some new tools and features at no additional charge. So it's this kind of thing that makes me appreciate what you guys are doing. There is still a lot of work ahead to complete the mission, but seems like you're taking a lot of steps in that direction these days.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jarred? Can you tell us what the new mount gains us?
Thanks

...He already did:


The new lock rings are muchbetter on the fingers, plus much more low profile.

[chuck colburn]

Is this new PL mount made out of steel instead of aluminum?

That is both the seating surface and the locking ring mount contact surface. Aluminum does not suffice for either of those two pieces. And please for all your buyers sake get rid of those flat head hex screws they are a bad idea.

[Steve Sanacore]

I think your maths is confused....I expect you mean 2.5%

Moving on....what do you expect Red to do....give the new locking ring to all for free.
That's the natural conclusion I'd draw for everybody whinning about this.

It's an improvement...an additional item....with a cost.
So now two parts....the old version item and the new version item should cost the same as one.
Quantum physics ain't reached sales yet....sorry!

On that note there are hundred's of things that could and will be improved on the camera between when Red #1 was out..until Red #nnnnn comes.

And you guys want all those upgrades free.....phewwww. Dream on.

Let me get this straight.
You want a camera for 17K and to hold that price for 4 years with no CPI increase which means the value of that $17K will decrease and on top of that you want every upgrade free or heavily subsidised!
Am I correct?
I suggest you also make this request to any manufacturer of any item you own and tell me who comes to the party.

I could go on and on but......but guys just don't think it out.

D

2.5%!

You are soooo right! A momentary lapse of reason on my part- :blink: Please forgive my brain fart on this one....!

I was just surprised that all cameras undelivered wouldn't have the new ring. I guess they are more ahead of production than I realized.

[Steve Sanacore]

Thanks Steve. If we screw up with customer service.. there is no excuse, and we deserve all the critisism we recieve. But we will never apologize for being innovative, and making the product as good as we can, and offering upgrades as soon as they are available.

We do not just save up all the advancements we make on a daily basis and then every 12 months package them into a brand new camera and make you customers start all over again by buying a new camera. We have taken this route since the begining, and we dont plan on changing that anytime soon.

Some upgrades are free, and some arn't, but we like to think that people appreciate the fact THEY have that decision if they choose. Maybe im wrong.

No Jarred, you're not wrong.... we are just spoiled and I will shut up now....

[RedDog444]

I just checked, and a 16 GB P2 card sells for $849.95 at B&H. So what's to complain about?!

[James Brundige]

These quizzes will be a lot easier if Jared gets a fill light. shall we chip in?

[Craig Bowman]

Jarred, if Red gave everyone a suitcase full of money I'm certain a percentage of this group would complain the suitcase handle ruined their manacures.

[Jarred Land]

These quizzes will be a lot easier if Jared gets a fill light. shall we chip in?

Fill lights take away ALL the fun..........

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, if Red gave everyone a suitcase full of money I'm certain a percentage of this group would complain the suitcase handle ruined their manacures.

heh heh.. post of the day. thx.

[Siva Kollipara]

Jarred, if Red gave everyone a suitcase full of money I'm certain a percentage of this group would complain the suitcase handle ruined their manacures.
This is best statement I have heard in the recent past. Which is true.:clown2:

[Nathan Garofalos]

Jarred, if Red gave everyone a suitcase full of money I'm certain a percentage of this group would complain the suitcase handle ruined their manacures.

If RED gave me a suitcase full of money, I would buy a RED ONE!!! I would be the happiest person alive!!!

[Uli Plank]

"Cría cuervos y te comerán los ojos."

I loved the movie by Carlos Saura…

One day there'll be collectors paying high prices for unmodified original Red Ones – you guys are already writing history (as if I need to tell you).

Regards,

Uli

[Thor Wixom]

A few days ago the 16gb CF cards are a prime example.. after a year we finally give up and go do it ourselves, announce it, thinking everyone is gonna be doing backflips because we went through the incredible effort to pretty much jump ahead of the entire consumer flash industry, but no, we get a buncha hate mail that we are gouging customers :(

Not everybody sent you hate mail. : )

-Thor

[Stephen Williams]

witness mark is old news....

Hi Jarred,

I don't see any on the focus scale.

Stephen

[Marc Berger]

(About the extra $400.-)

For the sake of beauty: Just give your reservation number back, and order new, and you will get a Red One with the new mount for free!
Is $400,- more -and we can choose to pay it- worth to wait two or three months longer? Not to me.
Would be a question a for a vote thread.
BTW Thanks for the new sticks! I wished Red would also make them in aluminium. Great news!

Marc

[Nick Gardner]

Please don't discontinue the old lock ring, I know you say the new one is an option, but I would hate to see it replace the old one. You can remove the ears if they get in the way, the molded finger grippy things, not so much.

Nick

[Marc Berger]

Maybe the old one is even better if you work in the cold with gloves?
Marc

[Tony Lorentzen]

Just to clear things up. I've had a little sleep now and yesterday was a shitty day to begin with, so my outlook on things is a little different now :)

[Nick Gardner]

Maybe the old one is even better if you work in the cold with gloves?

Yup. There is a reason every PL mount in the world is more or less the same - it is a good design and works well. If it sucked it would have been changed 15 years ago.

Nick

[oldphart]

If RED gave me a suitcase full of money, I would buy a RED ONE!!! I would be the happiest person alive!!!

Unless it was Zimbabwe dollars in it, a suitcaseful would probably get you at least one Epic.

[Martin Weiss]

Unless it was Zimbabwe dollars in it, a suitcaseful would probably get you at least one Epic.
And since that money is required for an Epic, Red ought to ship the suitcase free of charge. :clown2:

[Simon Valderrama]

A few days ago the 16gb CF cards are a prime example.. after a year we finally give up and go do it ourselves, announce it, thinking everyone is gonna be doing backflips because we went through the incredible effort to pretty much jump ahead of the entire consumer flash industry, but no, we get a buncha hate mail that we are gouging customers :(

well... what i did after the announcement was just ordering two 16GB CF cards.
Sure it was more silent and unnoticeable compared to hate mails, but sure it's what everyone who appreciated the announcement is going to do.
better than backflips no? :)

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I was doing backflips, shooting tests, posting on this board *and* ordering a couple of 16gb cards all at the same time.

Jochen :-)

[Simon Valderrama]

I was doing backflips, shooting tests, posting on this board *and* ordering a couple of 16gb cards all at the same time.


yeah, probably i wasn't backflippin' because the camera still isn't in my hands.
the bittersweet taste of waiting.

[zak forrest]

Please don't discontinue the old lock ring, I know you say the new one is an option, but I would hate to see it replace the old one. You can remove the ears if they get in the way, the molded finger grippy things, not so much.

Nick

It's nice to be able to remove some of them, and sometimes when handholding a naked red it's nice to rest a finger on one of the ears for added support.

[zak forrest]

Fill lights take away ALL the fun..........

Darius Khondji has said that cinematographers use fill light out of fear.

[Matt Garrett]

Please don't discontinue the old lock ring, I know you say the new one is an option, but I would hate to see it replace the old one. You can remove the ears if they get in the way, the molded finger grippy things, not so much.

Nick

agreed. sometimes it's a tight fit getting a ff in there with a set of standard speeds.

[Piers McGrail]

So it's only optional up to the #3000's?

Although it looks more streamlined, it also looks like it would might be hard to tighten a difficult lens, particularly in a pressure situation- say if it's raining, and your fingers are wet.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd like the old lock ring. Any way you can keep it optional past the #4000's....? At first impressions I'd probably pay to keep the old ones to be honest.

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Jarred, looks great...let me know when upgrades are available. Cheers.

[Rodrigo Lizana]

And $400 for a part on a lens mount also seems very expensive.....

Expensive ?. You should try traditional film camera accessories !. Hey $ 400 is the price of a glowmask or half the price of a ground glass !.

Perhaps updates may be released in a regular period, like in 1-2 year interval so that way you can rest sure your Red One is going to be the latest model until a known date. Opps I forgot that Epic was already announced :-)

Regards

[Jarred Land]

.. and this are each individually machined, not cast :)

[chuck colburn]

Yeah 4 bills ain't nothing. Even if they were cast or injected molded they would still have to be machined. In fact for a piece such as this it's cheaper to put a piece of tubing in a CNC and turn out the patrs on a continuous basis. And don't forget it's more then just one piece with precision threads and tapped holes. This is not an extension tube. lol