Final Cut Pro can manipulate 4k files!!!

[Manfred Lopez]

Just announced... Final Cut Pro can manipulate 4k files... also a new final cut server...

[Alex Boothby]

Live blogging here:

http://www.hdforindies.com/

Thanks Mike

[Justin O'Neill]

Props to Apple for staying ahead of the curve.

I build and use PCs but Apple gets serious props for supporting the latest cameras. I bought a Mac last year and it looks like I will have to buy another soon.

[Manfred Lopez]

available in july

[Alex Boothby]

From hdforindies:

"-RED (FIRST TIME THERE'S APPLAUSE) - VIDEO
Red Video
-edit 4K w/ease & elegance
-2 ways to work w/4K files in FCP
-native Redcode for DI finishes
-ProRes for broadcast work
-can plug 4K footage, plug into laptop, convert to ProRes 422 (!!!!)"

[Manfred Lopez]

I wonder if the new final cut server can handle 4k

[Manfred Lopez]

By the way, up to the minute live coverage of apple event is found here:

http://www.macrumorslive.com/

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Apple store is offline... Should have some new goodies on there in just a bit. :)

FCP 6 sounds interesting. The ProRes codec sounds nice, but perhaps a bit too limiting at 4:2:2, but should make broadcast and HD people really happy. Nice to see they mentioned RED, REDCODE and easy native editing of 4K.

[Manfred Lopez]

"We took some of the great technology in Shake and brought SmoothCam down to Final Cut Pro, removes camera shaking."

[Anders Holck]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/04/dsc_3192.jpg

cool

[Jaime Vallés]

This sounds fantastic!!!! Work offline in FCP at 720p or so, then hit a couple of buttons, and in comes the full 4K REDCODE version of the footage used, ready for a DI!

[Alex Boothby]

I guess the right thing to say right now is:

"Thank you Ted"

[Júlio Taubkin]

My god!

[Manfred Lopez]

Now if only they'll announce new 4K displays... Please!! We Need 4k Displays!

[Adam Jeal]

Now if only they'll announce new 4K displays... Please!! We Need 4k Displays!

I'll second that! - I've heard enough now to realise that my mac based Avid has gone the way of the dodo. I'll probably be switching to FCP unless Avid can pull off something amazing (judging by their track record, I doubt it).

[Alex Boothby]

I'm still getting my head around this: Do they really mean Redcode support? Or am I reading that wrong?

[Júlio Taubkin]

It can only mean native redcode support!

[Justin O'Neill]

Its great to have image acquisition tools that are finally AHEAD of display technology. We have had computer monitors capable of 1600x1200 for ages now but no video to take advantage of that.

Now, suddenly, we will all be shooting moving images more then FOUR times that size. So exciting.

[Manfred Lopez]

I'm still getting my head around this: Do they really mean Redcode support? Or am I reading that wrong?

We don't know yet. The apple presentation is going on as we speak... er, post... Right now they are talking about Soundtrack pro. I'm still waiting for them to talk about the new displays.

[Shawn Nelson]

$3500?? Thats more than double what it cost now! What are they doing? FCP has long been more affordable than this! Damn it, I wanted those funds to go towards Red accessories. Goodbye second LCD... (yeah a know, play me a violin...)

[LighthouseMEdia]

Mike Curtis list on his blog:
-2 ways to work w/4K files in FCP
-native Redcode for DI finishes
-ProRes for broadcast work

All the pieces are coming together guys!!! What a great year 2007 is!!

[Manfred Lopez]

Its great to have image acquisition tools that are finally AHEAD of display technology. We have had computer monitors capable of 1600x1200 for ages now but no video to take advantage of that.

Now, suddenly, we will all be shooting moving images more then FOUR times that size. So exciting.

Yes, but maybe Apple will announce new displays... like maybe in 10 minutes :greedy:

[Anders Holck]

$3500 is for the AJA IO-HD

[Alex Boothby]

I think $3500 is for the "IO/HD". New FCP is $999. I think.

Edit - Anders beat me!

[Jim Arthurs]

$3500?? Thats more than double what it cost now! What are they doing? FCP has long been more affordable than this! Damn it, I wanted those funds to go towards Red accessories. Goodbye second LCD... (yeah a know, play me a violin...)

No, no... that's the new IO-HD AJA hardware box for converting to and fro their new ProRez codec... not the cost of FCP upgrade.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

$3500??

The $3500 is the price of the IO-HD module. They haven't announced pricing for Final Cut yet -- they're still going over all the applications.

[Jaime Vallés]

$3500?? Thats more than double what it cost now! What are they doing? FCP has long been more affordable than this! Damn it, I wanted those funds to go towards Red accessories. Goodbye second LCD... (yeah a know, play me a violin...)

I think $3500 is the cost of the external hardware box, the I/O HD. I think Final Cut Studio 2 still costs the same... we'll see.
EDIT - Wow, you all are fast!

[LighthouseMEdia]

I read $3495 as the cost for the AJA HD i/o hardware solution.

[Manfred Lopez]

$3500 is for the AJA IO-HD

Yes, its for a hardware encoder box.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hehe... We all corected Shawn within about 3 seconds of each other. This is truly geeking out on a Sunday afternoon.

[Júlio Taubkin]

Mike Curtis list on his blog:
-2 ways to work w/4K files in FCP
-native Redcode for DI finishes
-ProRes for broadcast work

All the pieces are coming together guys!!! What a great year 2007 is!!

Exactly!

[Anders Holck]

At least we seem to agree on that :-)

[Shawn Nelson]

Whew.....okay, sorry for the panic, I'm here at NAB in the convention lobby and went into price panic. Thanks for the re-assurance! :-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey, Boothba... $999 is the 10-user FC Server, $1999 for unlimited clients. Still waiting on pricing of Final Cut Studio. :)

[Alex Boothby]

Everybody - all together now: "IO-HD is $3500" - LOL

[Andrew Benz]

lol, six price corrections-- I love this site--all good guys looking out for one another...

[Jaime Vallés]

Hehe... We all corected Shawn within about 3 seconds of each other. This is truly geeking out on a Sunday afternoon.Totally. I should be cleaning the house right now, but damn the dishes, I want to see more of this!!!!

[Jim Arthurs]

Whew.....okay, sorry for the panic, I'm here at NAB in the convention lobby and went into price panic. Thanks for the re-assurance! :-)

Just proving the "quickest and best" info is no longer in the hands of those there in person... unless you were in the event, of course.

Having said that, see you guys at NAB tomorrow morning... I'm getting the Hell out of these forums and doing something productive in the sun this afternoon

Regards,

[Joe Carney]

Talk about taking on Avid, 1999.00 USD for a cross platform dcm is great if it works. Not being FCP centric is a wise move too.

[Alex Boothby]

From Mike @ www.hdforindies.com :

(LIVE COMMENT FEEDBACK - THE I/O HD BOX IS $3495, WE DON'T HAVE PRICING ON FINAL CUT STUDIO 2 YET...dunno if you need other stuff for converting to ProRes - I/O HD does it in realtime, but how long does it take without? Dunno yet)

[Shawn Nelson]

Just proving the "quickest and best" info is no longer in the hands of those there in person... unless you were in the event, of course.


I didn't know about the Apple Keynote, it's not on my NAB schedule or any paperwork they gave me. Hmmm...is it invite only or can anyone show up?

What screwed me up was the way Mike Curtis formatted his blog. He lists "PRICE? introduced at $3495, available in July" as a sub-bullet of FCP Studio. Apparently you were supposed to ignore that and just read it as applicable only to the subbullet preceding it. Oh well, I'm just glad Mike is fast.

[Adrian Correia]

this is such good news....fingers will be perpetually crossed until sometime tomorrow...

[Shawn Nelson]

It really is amazing. Jim's reach is far :-) But now the suck part for me is...if I get my Red in May, how will I edit with it until July! Ah...I'd hate to have to delay. Guess I gotta wait until tomorrow morning to learn more. It's killing me being here in Vegas, looking out over the convention floor and yet the news isn't until tomorrow! Oh well, the trip is going well, at least I managed to stop airport security from confescating the Oregon whiskey I brought for Jim.

[Jim Arthurs]

What screwed me up was the way Mike Curtis formatted his blog. He lists "PRICE? introduced at $3495, available in July" as a sub-bullet of FCP Studio.

I know... messed me up too when I first read it. Then went to the MacRumors site and figured it out...

[Anders Holck]

I think I had enough for tonight. Still DVDSP to go

[Jim Arthurs]

But now the suck part for me is...if I get my Red in May, how will I edit with it until July!

Just use REDCINE to convert to whatever you want... DVCPRO 100, etc.

[Manfred Lopez]

It really is amazing. Jim's reach is far :-) But now the suck part for me is...if I get my Red in May, how will I edit with it until July! Ah...I'd hate to have to delay.

I guess you could edit in something other than 4K in the meantime.

[Keith Alan Morris]

friggin awesome! i'm signing up for a Red 1st thing monday. if i ever get thru to an operator. holy friggin @#$%!

[Jaime Vallés]

Price of FINAL CUT STUDIO 2: $1299 confirmed.

Upgrade from FCS: $499
Upgrade from any other version of FC: $699

[Manfred Lopez]

Price of FINAL CUT STUDIO 2: $1299 confirmed.

Any word on how much for updaters?

[Shawn Nelson]

Yeah, $1299! Available next month!!

[Anders Holck]

Hmmm.....No DVDSP 5?

[Manfred Lopez]

Any word on how much for updaters?

Never mind, my page hadn't loaded all the way... this speed-posting thing can get dangerous...

[Anders Holck]

$499 for upgrade from studio

[Adrian Correia]

all of this stuff is only good things/news for Redusers. Shawn be happy man! At least you are there!

[Manfred Lopez]

"We're introducing a new application today: Color"

Final Touch here we go!!!!

[Shawn Nelson]

I'm very happy. $1299 for the full studio with nativ Redcode. 4k on a laptop! Woohoo!!!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

"Color" - Gotta love Apple's product naming. :)

DVDSP is no longer part of FCS? or is it just not getting an update right now? I'm kinda hoping it will be a bigger application. And it would almost be better as a stand-alone rather than bundled with the others.

[Anders Holck]

I can hear the jokes already:

- What Application do you use for your colorgrade?
- I grade in Color.
- Yes, that figures, but what application?
- COLOR!

[Carl-August Savgård]

Soon they will annonce that Color is included in FCPS 2. Trust me... :whistling:

[peter roehsler]

the apple store is online again - happy shopping!

[Shawn Nelson]

Soon they will annonce that Color is included in FCPS 2. Trust me... :whistling:

If you are right...then Christmas is two days in April this year, today and tomorrow! Yippikiyay!

[Carl-August Savgård]

Look at the specs for FCPS 2...


Final Cut Pro 6 for video and film editing
Motion 3 for graphics and animation in 3D
Soundtrack Pro 2 for professional audio post-production
Color, a new application for professional color grading and finishing
Compressor 3 and DVD Studio Pro 4 for digital delivery virtually anywhere — a disc, the web, Apple TV, iPod, or cell phone

Includes color.

[peter roehsler]

cnilsson is right - color IS included!

[Poi Boy]

I told you fcstudio guys would be happy at nab ! I've been playing with color for a while..it is awesome.
Aloha
-A

[Carl-August Savgård]

What did I tell you... I'm a happy puppy now... and I have to work, but I can't seem to get anything done... wonder why.

[Anders Holck]

And so is DVDSP 4. Cool I'll take it :-)

[Carl-August Savgård]

Poi Boy... We want screenshot... now...

[Manfred Lopez]

Yes... But will Color be able to grade in 4K??? Inquiring minds want to know...

[Carl-August Savgård]

Anders. there will be a DVDSP 4 included in FCPS 2... more on that soon I guess..

[Adrian T.]

the apple store is online again - happy shopping!

No new displays then. :sad:

[Anders Holck]

DVDSP 4 is the current version

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Color looks like it is included!

Apple Store back online -- Preview movies of new FCP6, Color, Motion3 online!

[Manfred Lopez]

Please let Color do at least 2K... would kinda suck if only HD rez.

[Adrian T.]

Keynote has ended. No new displays... :sad:

[Shawn Nelson]

Mike Curtis reports that Color will do SD, HD and 2k

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Shake's Optical Flow Re-Timing is now part of Motion too.

[Manfred Lopez]

New Red / Apple Demo:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=red

[Gunleik Groven]

WOOOOOOOW

And this is BEFORE the big day @ Red.

I'm already cheering and smiling so my wife thinks I've gone mad.
Cineform....


Gunleik

[Poi Boy]

I would say avid has been handed a pink slip.
-A

[Manfred Lopez]

I would say avid has been handed a pink slip.
-A

I would say a lot of companies have been handed a big kick in the a**

[Anders Holck]

http://www.holckowen.com/jarred.png
Great!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I spy.... The RAW Port. :)

http://www.appliedvisual.com/redimages/rawport.jpg

[Jaime Vallés]

Dude, the RED demo on the FCS site looks awesome!!! Jarred and Ted are rock-stars!!!

[Joe Carney]

Wish they had cross grades for Vegas users, hehehe. I may bite anyway.
Also wondering how Motion 3 compares to Eyeon Fusion 5.

[Anders Holck]

Funny with chat cheesy $5 sticker in front of that $6500 RAW port.
Now that's what I call a prototype :-)

[Nathan Troutman]

It's early, and all the features are yet to fully come out but OH, MY, GOD. What a great upgrade of Studio! But Holy @!#$$ I never hoped in my wildest dreams for a RED/Final Cut integration like this. Reading Redcode files in 4K directly in a Final Cut Timeline, #$%@ WOW. Plus a professional color grading app, too!! And it's all so CHEAP. I didn't believe it would happen, but today is a great day and tomorrow it all comes together. With Apple onboard with RED with this kind of cooperation I think, now, everyone will know this is all for real. Very, very real

[Gunleik Groven]

Did anyone notice background rendering in the turmoil?

Yes or no?

Gunleik

[Manfred Lopez]

Does anyone know if this was THE major industry partnership that Jim was alluding to, or is there more tomorrow??

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does anyone know if this was THE major industry partnership that Jim was alluding to, or is there more tomorrow??

This is pretty major... Or at least it looks to be. I'm expecting the full details tomorrow with a lot more wow's.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

with a lot more wow's.

You can say that again...

[Ed David]

This is really an incredible alliance. With FCP being the big middle finger to $100,000 editing systems and Red the same to the highest end cameras, I can't wait to see how great they will work together. Now to only get together a few thousand.

[Manfred Lopez]

I also wonder what this whole thing is going to do to Red sales... Imagine, every single person using Final Cut Studio from now on will always see the option of "Redcode" whenever they want to capture something... How long can a fellow resist??

[Simon Blackledge]

Red and Apple should take a bow no matter what else rises from NAB.

I'm upgrading asap!..

well done all of the RED team..

2007 goes down in history thanks to you.

[Joe Carney]

I went to the apple site to check up on COLOR. Wow, 444 with 32bit float per channel at up to 2K. Cool, but not cool, no support for 4K it seems.

[Poi Boy]

let's not get greedy. look at the price !
-A

[Simon Blackledge]

no.. but 2k now.. are we that desperate for 4k ?

or a downsampled 4k to 2k then graded... :) do me for now!

[Rick Darge]

This is such amazing news

Another milestone - It feels like 10 years ago when miniDV hit the scene - Multiplied by a million years of evolution - I feel like I"m in the future

[Manfred Lopez]

I went to the apple site to check up on COLOR. Wow, 444 with 32bit float per channel at up to 2K. Cool, but not cool, no support for 4K it seems.

I think that to be able to do 2K color grading in June (!!) for only $499 (upgrade) ---complete with secondaries and geometry--- was completely unheard of just 40 minutes ago... I am sure in a near future update Apple will bump it up to 4K.

Just to keep it perspective... Silicon Color 2K (considered a breakthough product for price/performance) was $25,000 Dollars just last year. Before that 2K color grading was minimum 60,000+.

So I think we should be a little grateful now that we are getting it for "free" in the Final Studio 2. I can't believe I almost bought Final Touch 2K last year. I am soooo glad I didn't.

[Simon Blackledge]

Wheres the upgrade in the UK store! I wannit now!!!

[Simon Blackledge]

So looking at engaget.com and apple hardware.. I can

use the pro422 harware.. plug it into my laptop on set via FW800. Have a Sata card in the macbookpro's expansion slot linked to a portmultiplied 5 drive bay :-) and record direct.. from pretty much anything..

plus it appears to have hdmi in and out!...

[Anders Holck]

You don't need a 5 drive bay ProRes 422 is only 22 MB/S in 1080/24

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Come on Avid don't let me down!

[Simon Blackledge]

I like storage though ;) mind only usually have abour 40gig free on laptop. plus FW800 port is then taken.

hmm.. not clear on "realtime in color".. appears to be real-time.. on a still frame.. then render.. :(

very intresting times ahead.. wonder what Avids upto ;)

[Anders Holck]

The cool thing about Color (and Final Touch) is that it's tuned for realtime performance on the GPU, So if you have enough bandwidth and GPU power, you can do realtime correction on up to 2k material.

I did have a test license for Final touch 2k, but it proved to be pretty unstable. The features were nice though, it was just that XML interchange that always seemed to go wrong.

[Rick Darge]

skrew avid

[Matt Gottshalk]

skrew avid

Exactly, Apple just pWned Avid.

[Manfred Lopez]

Does anyone know if Avid media composer can do 4K? Or how about their Film composer... any of those do 4K?

[Curran Giddens]

I just ordered the upgrade from FCS. $500 for FinalTouch 2K! ...err. I mean "Color."

[Ben Feuer]

l33t newbz fanb01z!!11

2007...the REAL year of HD. And UHD. And - uh - big.

[Hrvoje Simic]

This is such amazing news

Another milestone - It feels like 10 years ago when miniDV hit the scene - Multiplied by a million years of evolution - I feel like I"m in the future

Like an SF-movie, man,
totally.

[Emanuel A.]

Great news indeed though @PC_side as user.

[Drew Mylrea]

Who's got information as far as system requirements go? Full422, REDCODE?

[Corrado Silveri]

Holy Crap...

[Anders Holck]

I dont think it's confirmed yet if FCP 6 supports more than 8 bit in RGB mode.
Anyone?
All the tech specs and the material mentions is 4:2:2 which is YUV

[Simon Blackledge]

Funny how apple bring out a pro422 codec just as recode is about to come out.. wonder how much they have in common? If so only a matter of time/bandwidth before pro422/4k comes out.

Many questions.. Apple Hd/io.. only Pro422? or can you select codec? can you select REDCODE? or uncompressed? will the box do 4:4:4 like the Kona 3?

more info!!!!..

[Anders Holck]

No the signal over firewire have to be ProRes422 to fit over the firewire 800 bus. That's why there is a dedicated ProRes422 hardware codec in the box

[Jim Arthurs]

Like an SF-movie, man,
totally.

This is a good year to be pushing pixels around...

In 17 years of NAB I've never had a pre-show chill such as this.

This year brings a camera ranking best of class that I can afford, and the ability to edit and color correct that footage... at a price I can afford.

Add in the powerful tools in CGI from companies like ZBrush, Luxology, and 3D Motion tracking that is affordable, and I'm really left speachless.

I've never worked for anyone... ever. I've always believed in owning my own tools, not having the tools own me. Now, I can own a WHOLE LOT MORE, leaving the only limitation the stretch of my talent and imagination.

I'll have to be careful the rest of the day... I'm thinking about it so hard... If I'm not careful I'll get hit by a car just walking the dogs...

Good gosh... I've not even at NAB yet... what will tomorrow hold????

[Simon Blackledge]

hmm.. FW800 could still do redcode4k though no ?

[Júlio Taubkin]

I'm gonna say it again. This NAB changes everything. First RED, then this? Desktop DI ? We basically get two options to work with REDfiles, one for HD broadcast with apple's new codec and another in 2K at home. And we can leave 4K for the studio and finishing houses. But honestly, you can earn your living selling 1080p material for broadcast, and still can be ready for an indie production for the big screen, in 2K definately, and in 4K with some strech (but not much!).

Good bye film, it was an honor and I'm gonna miss you. I will tell my grandchildren of the great pleasure it was working with you - I'm lucky I managed to shoot 35mm to this day, because I feel I'm never going to be able to shoot it again!

[Anders Holck]

Yes, if AJA implmented REDCODE in the box as well and had the power to do 4k downscaling, it could work.
But as TED shows in the video, with the new codec independent timeline, a Redcode clip dragged into a ProRes timeline can playback in realtime.

Anyways, we just have to wait until tomorrow to get the last bits and pieces

[Joe Carney]

I dont think it's confirmed yet if FCP 6 supports more than 8 bit in RGB mode.
Anyone?
All the tech specs and the material mentions is 4:2:2 which is YUV

I went to apples site and it appeared fcp6 was doing 10bit 4:2:2 right on the timline. Plus you can edit Redcode on the timeline. But I could be wrong.

From what I've seen, they went way beyond 8bit per channel in everything.

[Anders Holck]

Yes 4:2:2 is YUV that was in FCP 5 as well (32 bit rendering pipeline in YUV). What have been missing is a >8 bit RGB pipeline. If you render in RGB mode to a RGB codec in FCP5 the Pipeline is only 8 bit, which is pretty problematic....Motion and Color supports 32 bit in RGB, but that doesnt help in FCP.

[Ignas K]

What about Shake? We need that one updated too!

FPS2 is sweeet! upgrading asap.

[Anders Holck]

Development on Shake has stopped, so no more updates for that Application.

[Ignas K]

I know that Shake was axed, but something has to replace it in highend level, motion is not enought, even it can do 3d etc, one needs nodes.
just my 2¢

[Anders Holck]

Yes the replacement is slated for 2008, I believe it's codename is Phenomena or something

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If FCP can't do 12bit RGB every single new update is for not anyway. You'll be exactly where you started: working offline and conforming in another application later.

This isn't some small detail, this is as important as the resolution. You have to be able to handle the resolution and the color depth in order to be online.

If it autoconforms back to 12bit RGB you're ok, but until this gets cleared up we're pretty much back where we started before this update.

[david farland]

Still don't know what all the FCP actually means.....

Okay,they use new kona i/o box to ingest 10bit 4:2:2 2K from cameras (incl. RED's HD-SDI port) & tape decks, compress with Pro Res 4:2:2 codec...great.

Kona box/Pro-res 4:2:2 sounds a lot like a major competitor to avid's adrenaline/dnxhd.

Next will FCP Studio be able to do editing in anything over 4:2:2?

Firstly Pro-Res 4:2:2 is probably a format that Redcine will be able to output to...
Therefore any Redcode API in FCP can read native Redcode from Red media and edit natively in timeline...Great?

Okay nice to offline native Redcine files in FCP timeline...Can I extract a low rez version from source RED media and conform hi-rez version later....?

Okay now for onlining in FC Color

Final Cut Colour tech spec here (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/color/specs.html) can wrangle 4:4:4 2K files i.e. DPX etc but doesn't give bit depth!!
At the same time it says it can wrangle 10 bit 4:2:2 Pro-Res files.

Hopefully the render engine being 32bit float can do 10 bit DPX files but as Anders says that means crap in FCP 5. so it still worries me..er, who cares!!

Dunno! and that's really the biggest thing in all this APPLE/RED show!

Can I do an extended bunch of edit/effects in a FCP timeline and export to Final Cut Color for high rez version?

Can I perfrom low rez edit, extract FCP offline timeline EDL equivalent, import into FINAL CUT COLOR, conform original RED files to whatever MAX res COLOR can handle and output to 10bit 4:4:4 2K DPX or equivalent.....?

What is the maximum bit depth / resolution that Final Cut Color can conform and output to?

Anyone with an answer/comment ???

Cheers,

Stop press: Didn't see you post Gavin...agree very much..

[Alex Boothby]

If FCP can't do 12bit RGB every single new update is for not anyway. You'll be exactly where you started: working offline and conforming in another application later.

This isn't some small detail, this is as important as the resolution. You have to be able to handle the resolution and the color depth in order to be online.

If it autoconforms back to 12bit RGB you're ok, but until this gets cleared up we're pretty much back where we started before this update.

Well... some folks will be willing to work in 10bit. Convenience trumps perfection in some cases. I remember working on scans of Panic Room at 8bit!!!! just a few years ago. BTW: is it 10bit Lin & Log, or just linear?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well... some folks will be willing to work in 10bit. Convenience trumps perfection in some cases. I remember working on scans of Panic Room at 8bit!!!! just a few years ago. BTW: is it 10bit Lin & Log, or just linear?

It looks like it's 4:2:2 10 bit linear. In my mind that's editing offline when a 12bit 4:4:4 master is available.

If you're already editing offline you might as well work in something more responsive like HD.

[Corrado Silveri]

Are you sure?
I can't find any evidence...
And the native support for the Cineon and DPX file sequence make me think...

[Alex Boothby]

As an online editor / vfx artist who sometimes works in 16 bit, sometimes in 12, sometimes in 10 and sometimes in 8 (depending on the project) - I'm finding it harder and harder to justify the move to online. Why, when Final Cut Studio 2 offers nearly everything at your finger tips? Perhaps David Newman was right - ha ha.

The bitch is that aps like Inferno require you to go uncompressed, upping the data rate by a factor of 12x. I predict that in 6 to 12 months offline FCP editors will be working with relative ease in Redcode or ProRes 422 codec and will be - er - less than sympathetic to the fact that traditional online composite work will require us to go uncompressed RGB. Talk about hitting a brick wall. I've comped 16bit 4K for IMAX and it is not much fun.

Yet people's expectations will probably be a bit shy of realistic in the near future. In my experience clients already expect us to comp HD at the speed they have grown accustomed to working at in SD. I just worked on a pool of HD beer ads with loads of vfx, where we were expected to post updates for the clients every two hours or so - 96 wip quicktimes in a week or so. Crazy!

Things are sure getting wacky, exciting, creatively liberating, and maybe just a little bit dangerous. Oh well. I may be looking at the death of traditional online (my livelihood), but for some reason I'm really happy about it! :biggrin:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I agree I don't mind sticking to 2k RGB Deliverable myself and hopefully a REDCode workflow even on the comp side. But my point is for everybody who was excited about RED's 4k 4:4:4 RAW based workflow, it seems you're exactly where you were before: a proxy based workflow with a conform in your future if FCP is still limited to 10bit/4:2:2.

Compositing in 2k is obnoxious enough. I'm never anxious go beyond that in my workspace. Forget the client, I want it NOW!.

As I see it Pro Res = DNxHD.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I went to the apple site to check up on COLOR. Wow, 444 with 32bit float per channel at up to 2K. Cool, but not cool, no support for 4K it seems.

I'm not so sure what to make of that yet. They say up to 2K. But elsewhere they also say "any resolution" and "all formats supported in FCP".

[david farland]

There's the rub....

Weigh up having your FCP 'offline' timeline cuts/effects and all, cc'd in FCC (Color) at ProRes 10bit 4:2:2 2K. That's if you can actually 'export' all your FCP timeline effects to FCC

OR

Export your low rez timeline 'cut only' EDL/XML (whatever) to REDCINE, conform to 12bit 4:4:4 DPX etc files, then export these graphics file to FCC for final grade (umm...effects???).

Really,

we don't know enough yet!

As usual it's all marketing smoke & mirrors talk until one of us actually tries it!

Pro-Res sounds a lot like direct competition to cineform,dnxhd

Cheers,

[Manfred Lopez]

Well, this is what the Apple page says:

"You can even use Final Cut Pro and Color together for Digital Intermediate workflows, complete with the ability to render out DPX files at full 4:4:4 2K quality."

It wouldn't make sense that they would build this beautiful pristine lake of pure cristal water (4:4:4 2K) and then turn around and piss in it with a 10bit/4:2:2 limit in FCP.

[Stephen Gentle]

Hmmmm.... A MacBook Pro is really looking inviting now.. I wish I could buy a Mac Pro and a Red (but a car is a little more important at the moment).

-Stephen

[aliEn b]

Ok you guys. I read that some of you are disappointed because there still isn’t support for a 12 bit 4:4:4 4k color depth video. But have you paused for a second and realized what these guys have been able to accomplish in such a short time and breaking all possible rules? Have you thought of what this means for the entire film and broadcast community? Empowering the masses with tools that were inaccessible for most of us only last week, opening new worlds and new horizons for anyone interested in expressing their ideas in a visual form.

I propose a big up to Jim, Ted and all the guys at Red for their ideas, their vision, their strength and will power to bring this project to life, the guts to compete and challenge with all the established camera, hardware and software producers at par level (when very few people gave them credit), the love to share their development with us, and the ability to make our minds race to infinite possibilities which is the fabric of what dreams are made of.

So please don’t spoil our dream with fast critiques yet. An old chinese proverb says: Before you judge, think to yourself: Could I have done a better job? I certainly couldn’t.

So thank you guys @ Red. And Hi to the whole Red community. Today is a good day for everyone.

alan

[david farland]

Alan,

We're a user group trying to work out what 'actually' going on with newly released products.

No detractors on this thread..well...except me...but...well

Our hearts are in the right place here, as sounds yours.....

5.5 hours to go......!!!

Hey...wonder what's happening over at c.net at the moment...couldn't resist...!

Cheers,

[Gopher77]

The only capability that FCP is stating that didn't exist in someother program before is native red support. Very Nice that they have that quick of an update, but I'm sure all the others will follow soon. It continues to bother me that FCP doesn't up its color resolution, you won't be able to finish on it for the big screen until it does. 32 float for intrenal processing is pretty much standard on all, but until you get higher color bit depth in and out it's just an offline editor.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Even if FCP6 brings in a sort of 10bit422 bottleneck in the workflow, wouldnt that be less important if you first processed your RAW footage in redcine? By doing basic color correcting work to the raw file, your taking advantage of the 12bit data before downsampling 'a little' to 10bit 422 for FCP. By the time you get to final color work in Color, you aren't doing anything drastic to wreck your data.

[Anders Holck]

That depends on your output.
If you go to a YUV based tape format or Codec it doesnt matter as FCP supports 32 bit processing in YUV.

But if you want to go to a RGB based output, like film out, going either to YUV or 8 bit RGB is very bad.

Support 16 bit file I/O and 32 bit RGB processing would be the norm.

[Joe Carney]

Maybe we should look at this in terms of FC server and the broadcast market. The current max quality standard for HD broadcast is 10bit 4:2:2. Whether it's HD from Satellite, or cable or DVD or BlueRay. Using FCP6 and Server appears to give you a great workflow for various broadcast outputs, including the internet. Did everyone miss that fact that compress is included with FC server?

But now you can also use FCP for full DI, not just offline, but as the final finishing tool, bringing everything in from the outputs of various vfx programs (ie fusion 5 on windows) via the server. If I understand, you could ouput dpx log from something like fusion or Nuke, upload the files to FC server, and because it's event driven, have it automatically updated in the FCP timeline.


This is extremely cool, and affordable.

[david farland]

Graham & co try to explain FCP 5 and 32bit float here (http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/930780?univpostid=930689&pview=t)

Need to read up on this....

Better explanation will be very appreciated.....

Cheers,

[Anders Holck]

Im afraid it's Color only that supports DPX sequences, not final cut pro.

[roryhinds]

4k Finishing is the missing link with FCS2.

I can't see how you are supposed to finished at 4k without going to Scratch or Film Light which is expensive.

Hopefully RED have more to say on the subject as editing 4k is fantastic but Finishing is a major concern.

[Joe Carney]

Im afraid it's Color only that supports DPX sequences, not final cut pro.

Hmmm, drat. Well, fusion can output to Quicktme using just about any codec you have installed. Lets hope Apple releases their new stuff on Windows Quicktime.

Still, being able to easily get them into FC Server is a great step forward.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

But wait, the videos suggest you can take 4k RAW files straight off a Reddrive and edit with them. Wouldn't that suggest that you can also OUTPUT to 4k RAW, simply by outputing in current codec?

You could then take that file to Redcine and spit it out at whatever res/bit depth you wanted. Seeing as how most sequences all have the same color modifications, doing them all at once wouldnt be a problem.

[Jaime Vallés]

But wait, the videos suggest you can take 4k RAW files straight off a Reddrive and edit with them. Wouldn't that suggest that you can also OUTPUT to 4k RAW, simply by outputing in current codec?

You could then take that file to Redcine and spit it out at whatever res/bit depth you wanted. Seeing as how most sequences all have the same color modifications, doing them all at once wouldnt be a problem.

That's what I'm thinking as well. Edit in Redcode 4K at whatever downsized resolution your computer can handle, then tell Redcine to output the selected clips in whatever DPX or TIFF files the program you use for finishing will acccept.

[Sean]

The only capability that FCP is stating that didn't exist in someother program before is native red support. Very Nice that they have that quick of an update, but I'm sure all the others will follow soon. It continues to bother me that FCP doesn't up its color resolution, you won't be able to finish on it for the big screen until it does. 32 float for intrenal processing is pretty much standard on all, but until you get higher color bit depth in and out it's just an offline editor.

So Avid Media Composer (software only) is currently 32 float for internal processing?

[Anders Holck]

Avid Media Composer can render AVX 2.0 plug ins in 16 bit integer. No 32 bit float mode.

[Manfred Lopez]

Bump... for the benefit of the new people here...

[Nathan Troutman]

Edit in Redcode 4K at whatever downsized resolution your computer can handle, then tell Redcine to output the selected clips in whatever DPX or TIFF files the program you use for finishing will acccept.

This is the workflow I'm trying to wrap my head around as well. I have been looking at the redcine diagram for so long that I'm having a hard time readjusting. Now with the new Final Cut secrets announced you can go directly to editing (although how fast does 4K Redcode Raw edit and on which kind of machine?). Then to maintain the best quality you'd have to leave Final Cut and go to Color (for 2K) or a much higher end system (for 4K). Or convert to Pro Res and do everything in Final Cut at 10Bit 4:2:2 - the "offline" or "low-res" broadcast codec.

It's funny that ProRes is looked at as the "poor" resolution because we're starting with such a high res file with Redcode. 2K 10Bit 4:2:2 uncompressed is just OK because we want 4k! It's crazy how everything has spun on it's head. You have to remind yourself that eight years ago I was dancing around so excited that I could see a cross dissolve in realtime editing DV footage. If a 10 bit Final Cut 4:2:2 edit is "offline" editing you have to remind yourself that only a few years ago offline editing was OfflineRT. Right now with Final Cut 6 this "offline editing" is full HD broadcast quality. If you're still asking for more Color gives you super high quality 2K. Either way, edit 4k Redcode in Final Cut. Export EDL or go through XML into Redcine and then do a conform to your finishing format for Color or whatever other app you're going to use. Redcine has become the intermediary step between Final Cut and Color not the first step as I was planning it to be. This all works well, because it makes sense to take advantage of RAW and use it within Redcine to do some color correction and image manipulation before you generate a video file.

I wrote all of this so someone much smarter than I could correct any errors. Is this also what you guys (and girls) are thinking for the new RED workflow with Final Cut Studio?

[Nathan Troutman]

Also noticed the workflow page has been updated at the Red site.


http://www.red.com/workflow.shtml

Amazing full resolution frame grab. And you can see the Redcine program window. Note - "REDCINE is supported on Intel Mac and Windows XP only"

Time to sell the G5!!

[Manfred Lopez]

Is this also what you guys (and girls) are thinking for the new RED workflow with Final Cut Studio?

Pretty much... But I do have a dumb-dumb queston... Is there any way to color correct in 'Color' and have all the processes re-applied to the original 4K material via proxy or something (sort of like rendering it out in the background?) I think I read somewhere that from start to finish [in final cut studio 2] one could end up with 4K output (even with Color).

[Gbabymogul]

Ok, let me get this straight. This is damn confusing.

To get beyond 10 bit 4:2:2 editing in Avid (except for keys which are 16 bit) you have to go to a $100K DS Nitris suite right ? All other Avid editors are 10 bit 4;2:2, plus you have to transcode to crappy DNxHD which is not a finishing format (whatever the marketing dudes tell ya). Regardless, you have to output a DPX file anyway.

tell me how that this Final Cut studio isn't an Adrenaline for 1/10th the price, plus having the ability to directly edit 4K files (without transcoding) ???

I'm seriously curious here. I'll buy whatever makes my RED baby happy. I'm editing agnostic (i've hired out suite time in the past) so i don't care. What I do care about is

a) the less transcoding steps the better
b) being able to finish (including cc) up to 1080p 4:4:4 RGB/2K and seeing the final product , not an SD downconvert (to check focus, color char's etc...)

I'm a director, not an editor, so if i'm missing sumptin' here please let me know :wink:

Like y'all, i'm curious as to how you could edit in REDCODE, then do a final mix and master in color , and output the highest rez and format youcan afford.

:beer:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Avid doesn't require you to transcode to DNxHD.

We're still trying to figure out if Final Cut requires a conversion to 4:2:2 color space. The question is: did Peter Jackson's production edit in FCP and then online on the Pablo? Or did they edit in 4:4:4 4k and then export from FCP.

I'm assuming to maintain quality they offlined in FCP (offlined in 4k perhaps) and then onlined in Pablo.

It's a mystery. At this point we just don't know how the whole FCP workflow is going to shake out. There still may not be any 4k 4:4:4 single solution, in which case you can choose any editor you want that'll export an EDL and the color space/codecs don't really matter at all, because you're offline anyway.

Personally I'll be viewing dailies in REDCine. Editing in Avid Xpress Pro in SD and conforming in another application such as Combustion, or else taking my footage if budget allows to a local Lustre suite.

[Gbabymogul]

Avid doesn't require you to transcode to DNxHD.
Everything I've read (and been told by Avid reps) is that to edit HD content (other than in Nitris) you have to transcode to DNxHD. If you can edit 1080p (4:4:4) RGB or 2K in Xpress Pro or Media Composer/Adrenaline, then I'd sure like to know about it:) One of the reasons we didn't buy an Avid suite was that, IMHO, you can't monitor a "true" HD output on it. The best advice i've gotten from a dp was to insure your image - focus, color, artifacting etc... - before it gets to the final master. Avid (up to Nitris) won't let you do that, as far as I know.

People say, 'just bring it into a online suite to do that', but if you are off before that (in the aforementioned) then your costs become exponential.

What I expected from Avid was

-> a substantial price drop Media Composer/Adrenaline
-> true HD monitor out/realtime
-> future Redcode "native"editing (that was a long shot)
-> some sort of cross promotional color grading app

What I got was

-> our product is being surpassed by the field, so we're going to an open development platform to keep the software selling as long as we can
-> we're keeping our prices as high as we want, screw you.


Personally I'll be viewing dailies in REDCine. Editing in Avid Xpress Pro in SD and conforming in another application such as Combustion, or else taking my footage if budget allows to a local Lustre suite.That sounds perfectly feasible to me, depending on your deliverable and if you want to provide room for theatrical release (both DCI spec and film). If you do want to provide room for that or the possibility that you won't screen your project for distributors and notice a number of "possible" missed shots then that might not be good enough.

Like I said, I'm no editor, and my total experience editing is working with someeone who knows what they're doing in a high end suite for as little money as possible. I want to buy Avid because I wantt to bring the finishing as much in house as possible. Unfortunately, Avid seems to me like a few companies I can mention , a company who started out dominating their market, got complacent and egotistical, and eventually fell back to protecting their highest profit margin products until foreign multinationals entered when their tech and trade made it lucrative.

I really can't find a way to justify buying a whole set up just to hand off the project half way through to an online post pro company...not when RED is so f#ing cool.

BTW, I don't need a 4K finish or even to edit in 4K, specifically. If I'm going for a 4K finish I will have the backing to do it. Otherwise a 2K finish is more than suffcient for the kind of deliverables (even limited theatrical runs) we'll need, IMO.
Like i said, i may not know a whole bunch, so if you want to correct me feel free :-) thanx for responding to my post, Gavin.

:beer:

[Thomas Mathai]

So if you're not an editor, are you going to do your own finishing or just hire someone to run your suite?

The workflow is really simple to me:
Shoot RedCode, edit RedCode and color correct RedCode. Output to whatever format is needed.

Resolution depends on if using Color for 2k or Scratch for 4k.

The missing pieces will be what will the 2k/4k color space be and how do you plan to calibrate for it with accurate monitoring.

I see no point in Rec709 if doing 2k/4k, that's for HD, you can output a Rec709 version later.

[Cail Young]

Pretty much... But I do have a dumb-dumb queston... Is there any way to color correct in 'Color' and have all the processes re-applied to the original 4K material via proxy or something (sort of like rendering it out in the background?) I think I read somewhere that from start to finish [in final cut studio 2] one could end up with 4K output (even with Color).

If I understand Ted correctly in the hdforindies interview;

You import REDCODE RAW 4K into FCP6. Do your edit. FCP6 will dynamically pull low-res proxies of your shots from the original files, no re-render required.

Once your edit's done, you bounce to Color. Color reads in the FCP timeline and has access to all of the original 4K data, which you can then render at any resolution you like.

[Gbabymogul]

So if you're not an editor, are you going to do your own finishing or just hire someone to run your suite?
More hands on experience, and the rest will be project oriented. Or business oriented.

[Manfred Lopez]

If I understand Ted correctly in the hdforindies interview;

You import REDCODE RAW 4K into FCP6. Do your edit. FCP6 will dynamically pull low-res proxies of your shots from the original files, no re-render required.

Once your edit's done, you bounce to Color. Color reads in the FCP timeline and has access to all of the original 4K data, which you can then render at any resolution you like.

Thanks for the answer. If this is true, then it trully will be an end-to-end system. The rendering out is a very small price to pay. Also, as soon as macs get up to speed I am sure 4K will be switched to real-time. I guess there will be no need anymore to spend a small fortune on a scratch system.

[david farland]

...The missing pieces will be what will the 2k/4k color space be and how do you plan to calibrate for it with accurate monitoring.

I see no point in Rec709 if doing 2k/4k, that's for HD, you can output a Rec709 version later.

I hope cinespace can do it as mentioned here (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/color/)

[roryhinds]

yeah not having to go to Scratch would be a big saver.

I don't see why you could not work on 2k in Color then render out 4k when you're done as you don't need to see the full 4k image when grading, 2k will be enough for now.

The only reason for them not allowing this would be pressure from Scratch, Film Light etc for market dominance at the high-end 4k finishing stage.

I would have thought RED would push for 4k Finishing though.

[Airlawn]

I would think Apple will push for 4k finishing. They seem to be after pushing any technology which creates a need for more advanced computer hardware.

[Manfred Lopez]

The only reason for them not allowing this would be pressure from Scratch, Film Light etc for market dominance at the high-end 4k finishing stage.

I think it has more to do with the fact that it is a work in progress. Remember, Leopard has been delayed and it's the OS that is needed to take advantage of the octomacs. Without it Final Cut Studio 2 and Color --in their current stage-- won't even run at full power. So... to do the 4K properly Apple has to first finish a bunch of house chores. Aslo, I think that Apple (just like Red) doesn't really care about 'pressure' from other companies... especially in the light that Apple's products are designed to pretty much destroy the way those high-end companies do things.

[Cail Young]

Leopard has been delayed and it's the OS that is needed to take advantage of the octomacs. Without it Final Cut Studio 2 and Color --in their current stage-- won't even run at full power.

The OS has nothing to do with whether an application can use any arbitrary number of threads - the Compressor demo shown in the Apple NAB event certainly used all 8 cores.

[david farland]

I looked at most of the online systems over the last few weeks.
The hardware & software architecture required to perform approaching proper RT grading on 2k uncompressed files is...HUGE!!!!

Apple may be able to compete with colorista/colour finesse/AE but after that forget it..

[Anders Holck]

Don't underestimate the power of of the recent GPU's and the fact they support 32 bit floats.
Today it's just a matter of data moving to and from the GPU.

[Manfred Lopez]

The OS has nothing to do with whether an application can use any arbitrary number of threads - the Compressor demo shown in the Apple NAB event certainly used all 8 cores.

I´m talking more like the system as a whole is not tuned for the best performance. Accessing each core is just one of many issues at play, and I wasn't really thinking of that in my post above anyway. What I was thinking is that, if I'm not mistaken, there will be a major revamp in Leopard in how the OS handles graphics. Stuff like this has to be resolved before 4K can be implemented correctly. There is a reason Redcode support has been delayed just like Leopard itself. I'm also going by what the macrumors people have to say:


From MacRumors.com:

8-Core Mac Pro Benchmarks

"Barefeats speculates that the 8-Core Mac Pro maybe bottlenecked by the memory bus and also considers the possibility that Mac OS X Tiger may not be well optimized for the 8-Core Mac Pros."

[Nathan Troutman]

The OS has nothing to do with whether an application can use any arbitrary number of threads - the Compressor demo shown in the Apple NAB event certainly used all 8 cores.

Compressor has a preference setting that overrides the OS for addressing all of the cores. You tell compressor manually that you have 8 cores by setting the Instances setting with compressor. It is a temporary workaround until Leopard is ready to fully support 8 cores.

[Anders Holck]

As Nathan says, this mode apperently runs the Compressor engine 8 times in the background, instead of threading the routines from a single App. Pretty ratical to go to such extremes.

[Manfred Lopez]

Compressor has a preference setting that overrides the OS for addressing all of the cores. You tell compressor manually that you have 8 cores by setting the Instances setting with compressor. It is a temporary workaround until Leopard is ready to fully support 8 cores.

Wow, I had no idea it was that of a cheat. So like I was saying, tiger is definitelly not up to the task to take on 4K. :construction:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Cheats like that with Compressor and other rendering apps have been a mainstay for multiprocessor users for years. It's just a way of life, sadly... Kinda neat that Apple has placed application instancing and automation for this into the app itself... Hey, better several years late than never, right?

Hopefully Leopard will bring a lot better thread scheduling and process handling to the table. Obviously there's a lot that application developers need to do as well.

[Cail Young]

It is a temporary workaround until Leopard is ready to fully support 8 cores.

It's a temporary workaround until Compressor is rewritten to multithread.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As Nathan says, this mode apperently runs the Compressor engine 8 times in the background, instead of threading the routines from a single App. Pretty ratical to go to such extremes.

lol. I believe the word you're looking for is "lazy" not radical. Oh well, if it works, it's a good enough hack for now.

[Manfred Lopez]

Wow. In just two days this thread has gone over 10,000 views... It has gone into plaid! :blink:

But anyway, now that the second day of nab is over, can someone sumarize if there were any new developments regarding what we now about Red's / Final Cut Pro 2 4K integration.... With so many new posts and people it's hard to keep track.

[david farland]

:shifty: I’m sick of saying I dunno so I’ll give it a stab….

But before I do I wanna spit the dummy and say …WHY don’t we have a clear picture of this?
Not a mix of marketing speak, hints, conjecture with no correct answers…..

I would LOVE a technical description of this!!!! Taste the frustration yet!!

Okay… that’s off my chest

1. Redcode Raw is recorded to Red media. RGB isn’t ready yet. But neither is native Redcode editing in FCP.
2. Ingested via RED RAD (part of RED API installed into FCP). This can extract fractional resolutions of 4K Red Raw source footage. Another option of RED Rad is high/low Pro-Res 10bit 4:2:2 2K.
3. Next Ted told Mike Curtis that you can extract ½, ¼, etc. But immediately I’m confused.
4. ½ of 4K I can live with, that’s 2K, but 1/4 ….what’s that’s, 1024 pixels!....what format am I publishing to with 1K image. Or a 1/8 image=512 pixels. This is ok for offline edits but…How do I edit a 1080p master? Someone? Maybe for under 2K, I need to do offline and conform back to ‘proper’ format RedCode or is 1080p/720 a selection in RED Rad?...or Pro-Res, but that means I’ve done a transcode!
5. Ok, moving on. Ted says that I can edit native Redcode RAW 4K on the FCP timeline.
6. Ok, here I’m going to stop because there is Soooooo much I don’t know, but I gave it a try and I didn’t even get to 10/12bit stuff. But I tried.
7. Well, one last thing. I’m told I can produce a FCP EDL/XML thingie so FC Colour can conform FCP cuts, dissolves, speed, pan/scan to the original REDCODE master…but now I’m just taking the p..s.

Anyone want to pickup where I gloriously failed…….with some real technical workflow details?

Cheers,

[Joe Carney]

What is Quicktime RT?

David, If I undertand whats being said by others, it is similar to the Cineform Raw workflow in Premier. You don't need to convert to
Redcode RGB to edit. You can/should keep it in Raw format until final render. I think the edits while in Raw are non destructive.

Hope I'm right on that one.

[Anders Holck]

David.
How I understand it:

In the end the the Red camera will record in 4k and 2k Redcode RAW, 1080p and 720p Redcode RGB. Only in camera Redcode RAW will be enabled in the first cameras.

In the end Mac support will come in three steps:
1. Redcine
2. Normal Quicktime codec, for RAW and RGB support in all QT applications.
3. Enhanced FCP support.

Redcine and hopefully the normal quicktime codec will ship with the first cameras.

Later a FCP update will enable the enhanced support inside FCP.
You will get a P2 like import dialog with the ability to transcode into another codec and framesize.
You will also get RT extreme enabled Redcode.
Redcode RAW can be debayered on the fly. The Wavelets inside a wavelet codec allows it to skip layers to quickly get a half res or quater res image. Based on the performance of the processor and the destination sequence resolution, the codec can "gear down" the resolution on the fly, to keep the framerate. So while the sequence is plying you get a lower res but smooth framerate, and when you stop playback the codec switches to a high quality debayer. This is like the DV codec and DVCPRO codec currently functions inside FCP, it will gear down on the fly, with no user intervention.

If you choose to convert to another codec or framesize before editing, you can always recconect to the original RAW files and then do a consolodate in the mediamanager to get the final timeline in RAW, or you might have to export the timline as an XML and reconnect inside Redcine.

This is just one scenario.

There is really no info on what exactly is holding back in-camera Redcode RGB. Either the codec specs are done and they are waiting for the embedded version to get finalized, or the spec is not compleately finished and both the embedded version and the Quicktime codec are getting finalized.
Of course if it's the latter The quicktime codec will not be available until a later time, and youll have to use another codec, if you want to use an intermediate format.

[Nathan Troutman]

Based on the performance of the processor and the destination sequence resolution, the codec can "gear down" the resolution on the fly, to keep the framerate. So while the sequence is plying you get a lower res but smooth framerate, and when you stop playback the codec switches to a high quality debayer. This is like the DV codec and DVCPRO codec currently functions inside FCP, it will gear down on the fly, with no user intervention.

This is the way Final Cut worked even in its current incarnation. The program looks at what you got and makes it work the best it can. This is why I can edit HDV footage on a dual 1.8 G4 and my PC-friend has to conform his HDV footage to AspectHD to do any editing even though his machine is much more powerful. Final Cut lowers itself to the performance abilities of your machine (within reason.)


If you choose to convert to another codec or framesize before editing, you can always recconect to the original RAW files and then do a consolodate in the mediamanager to get the final timeline in RAW, or you might have to export the timline as an XML and reconnect inside Redcine.

Hopefully Media Manager glitches have been fixed with Final Cut Studio 2. I always seemed to have a problem getting media manager to get everything where it was supposed to be.

[Anders Holck]

Yes, it's the way it works if the codec is supported. You can edit in every codec that is installed in Quicktime, but only those that are blessed and have the right support hooks can do RT and the on the fly degradation.
Can't wait to get the Open Timeline of FCP 6 though. That will smoothen things up quite a bit.

Yes, the media manager has some problems in it's current incarnation. Usually doing a lot of variable speed is a guarantee for disaster.
I had to consolidate 11x25 min programs a few month's ago. I think it took around 2 days to get everything perfect.