Let me open up a can of worms... Red's Sensor Upgrade in 2009 Question

[Tom Lowe]

Jim, any chance that the Mysterium X sensor upgrade for Red One you have mentioned for 2009 will up the camera's resolution to, oh, I don't know... say... 5K, maybe? :)

[Noah Kadner]

Jim, any chance that the Mysterium X sensor upgrade for Red One you have mentioned for 2009 will up the camera's resolution to, oh, I don't know... say... 5K, maybe? :)

I think they've been pretty clear that 5K is on the Epic only.

[Tom Lowe]

I think they've been pretty clear that 5K is on the Epic only.

I have not see that stated. Can you provide a link?

[Joel Kaye]

I have not see that stated. Can you provide a link?

I was told by TED at NAB RED will be a 4K camera. But at RED everything is subject to change.

What we're likely to see is RED at 4K but with the other processer and technology upgrades EPIC brings because they'll probably be required to support the new chip properly. If they made RED 5K and upgraded the processor then you'd essentially have an EPIC so I don't see that happening. Same reason I never thought Scarlet would have 35mm DOF at 1080P. That's too close to RED.

[Zack Birlew]

Maybe upgrading the camera so we can get faster frame rates at 4K is what they were talking about, maybe 120fps 4K? There's other things to consider too, like a more sensitive sensor design or maybe even one capable of on the fly HDR imaging? Who knows what they can do? We can only guess until they acutally tell us what their plans are.

[conrad gaunt]

I read a rumour that Red had hinted there might be some sort of external module to allow the full sensor resolution to be recorded (ie 4.5k ish) in the future, instead of the dropped raw port? I only read the report of the rumour (I believe it was Reds WIKIPEDIA entry). I also believe there isn`t enough R1 internal processing power to achieve higher 4k framerates as things stand (ie, why 60fps @ 4k was replaced with 3k), although possible future firmware/redcode optimizations might get us nearer to such a goal.
Full sensor res @ 24fps would be nice!

[Tom Lowe]

Maybe upgrading the camera so we can get faster frame rates at 4K is what they were talking about, maybe 120fps 4K? There's other things to consider too, like a more sensitive sensor design....

Oh definitely. Those things would be awesome. And those seem like thing that will almost certainly be included in the sensor or sensor/processor upgrade in 2009.

Is the physical size of the sensor on EPIC the same as RED ONE?

If so, maybe Jim will basically offer the same Mysterium X sensor for both? Of course, one problem for Red One might be that its processor and other components could not keep up with that much data. Who knows.

[Sunshine Whitton]

I was told at the NAB booth that the interface speed wouldn't change with the upgrade. But who knows at this point. That's why I'm definitely upgrading to EPIC. That 100MB/s interface is a big deal. 4K at 100MB/s would have satisfied me. 5K @ 100MB/s is the bomb... Oh and the SSD RAID is key to leveraging those higher frame rates. MTRON SSD drives scale at 100MB each in raid 0, so hopefully they will have the RED Flash out soon....

[Mark Andersen]

As much as I love the camera, not being able to go 60-120 FPS in 4k or at least in the 35mm format is a bummer. I am feeling a little selfish and ungrateful here like the 16 year old brat who gets a new sports car and complains about the color. I will upgrade to Epic if it means true 4k Slomo.

[Michael Brennan]

RED's motto is "RED RENDERS OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE"


Not surprisingly RED are charging for hardware upgrades, like the upgraded bayonet ring, but given its price however you may be better off budgeting for an Epic than updating.

Selectivly upgrading only the features that intrests you has merit.




Mike Brennan

[Mark Pugh]

Maybe upgrading the camera so we can get faster frame rates at 4K is what they were talking about

This one would be fair as the Red website touted "we deliver 12megapixels at 60fps" until very very recently.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

As much as I love the camera, not being able to go 60-120 FPS in 4k or at least in the 35mm format is a bummer. I will upgrade to Epic if it means true 4k Slomo.

I sooo second that!!! :usd:

[Jannard]

Oh definitely. Those things would be awesome. And those seem like thing that will almost certainly be included in the sensor or sensor/processor upgrade in 2009.

Is the physical size of the sensor on EPIC the same as RED ONE?

If so, maybe Jim will basically offer the same Mysterium X sensor for both? Of course, one problem for Red One might be that its processor and other components could not keep up with that much data. Who knows.

The way to get 5K at 100 fps is to buy an Epic. We had to re-design every board and change "things" dramatically to make this work.

The RED ONE is a 4K camera. The sensor upgrade will bring the sensor design current to next year's technology.

Obviously, the 100% trade-in value of a RED ONE towards Epic also is a nice option. Before anyone is tempted to get aggravated over this situation, remind yourself... 4K PL mount full frame sensor records 24 fps to CF- $17,500. 5K PL mount full frame sensor records 100 fps to FD- about $40K. Comparing to other options- priceless.

Jim

[Lewis-M Soucy]

We have a Red feature on the go for next year, thanks to you. I'm still speechless on how things are going to be different for me and the rest of us at Monumental... You can't imagine how you are changing our lives and creative possibilities. Your passion is a true blessing for us. Thanks. Really.

[Michael Grugal]

I have a question Jim. What will happen to all the RED One bodies that will be traded in for the EPIC?

[Jason Ing]

Will the upgrade always be available to Red One owners or will there be a time limit?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

If someone is disappointed with his camera that shoots only 30 fps at no more than 4K resolution, I'd be happy to have it. :)

[Vladimir Eugene]

4K PL mount full frame sensor records 24 fps to CF- $17,500. 5K PL mount full frame sensor records 100 fps to FD- about $40K. .

Jim

What's FD?

[Jannard]

What's FD?

Flash Drives...

Jim

[Axel Mertes]

FD?

maybe flash drive?

Would be the only one meeting 100fps 5K REDCODE at this time (except disk arrays...).

Flash disks (or solid state disks) are getting quicker and quicker. I wonder why they are still THAT slow anyway. Parallel design seems not have have been put to maximum here yet.

Axel

[Vladimir Eugene]

Thanks

[Christian Edwards]

100 fps @ 5k ..... Jim, have you gone mad?

[Jannard]

100 fps @ 5k ..... Jim, have you gone mad?

Yes... I have.

Jim

[Michael Grugal]

What will happen to the old RED One bodies? Resale?

[Axel Mertes]

I suspect recycling and meltdown for new EPIC, Scarlet and RED ONE bodies... Who wants a RED ONE with scratches (not scratch)... :)

But thats in no way a proposal!

Axel

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Well, given that RED will be able to achieve 100fps@5K [Epic] and 120-(180)fps@3K [Scarlet], (sometime next year), I can't see why they wouldn't offer board\sensor upgrades for the 4K RED One, which would allow it to reach similar speeds at 4K.

And what's wrong with 4K? :blink:

[Michael Grugal]

Well, given that RED will be able to achieve 100fps@5K [Epic] and 120-(180)fps@3K [Scarlet], (sometime next year), I can't see why they wouldn't offer board\sensor upgrades for the 4K RED One, which would allow it to reach similar speeds at 4K.

And what's wrong with 4K? :blink:

Ya thats how I feel about this.

[Lewis-M Soucy]

120fps @ 4K makes would make this camera (One) a total perfect and complete tool for any sort of film if you ask me. Too bad we have to undercrank the quality to get it :sad:

Seems like we'll have to wait for Epic Santa to bring that one... :)

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

Well, given that RED will be able to achieve 100fps@5K [Epic] and 120-(180)fps@3K [Scarlet], (sometime next year), I can't see why they wouldn't offer board\sensor upgrades for the 4K RED One, which would allow it to reach similar speeds at 4K.
But you have to wonder how much that would cost -- probably the same as buying an Epic, with parts, labor, and shipping all factored in.

Or, they don't want to. The offer of a sensor upgrade is still better than you'd ever get from Sony.


And what's wrong with 4K? :blink:
The problem with 4K is the people who bitch about how 4K isn't true 4K, because the Bayer pattern and matrixing lose you 20% of the color resolution, getting you 3.2K.

So you start with a 5K Bayer, and after the matrixing and 20% resolution loss, you've got...drumroll...4K!

So while Epic is being marketed as a 5K camera, it's really meant to be a full-quality, "true 4K" cam, with high framerates, DR, and a new form factor.