DreamColor LP2480zx and Scratch

[Seth Larney]

Hey Lucas (and all),

We are putting together the final specs of our Scratch system and I'm looking into the feasibility of using the new DreamColor LP2480zx with Scratch and not having to use HD-SDI. We don't have any SDI decks currently and if the display is as accurate as HP claim then I'm hoping we may be able to get by without HD-SDI for now.

My question is about feeding 10-bit via anything EXCEPT HD-SDI from Scratch.

My understanding is that Scratch likes Nvidia cards, we are currently running a 8800GT in the machine that we are going to install Scratch onto but afaik the nvidia cards do not do 10-bit via DVI, (the firegl 7700 does via displayport) does anybody know anything about this? I do know that the Dual-Link DVI spec has provisioning for 10-bit though.. but that's just a spec.

Lucas, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, have you guys had a chance to test the Dreamcolor display yet? Do you have any advice on how I could feed it a 10-bit signal from Scratch? Obviously the Quadro's will output 10-bit via SDI, but the Dreamcolor display has no SDI.

Alternatively, the other option would be to just feed it an 8-bit signal via an Nvidia card from Scratch and make use of the display's good color fidelity for grading but in 8-bit viewing space until there is a video card option that will enable us to bump up to 10-bit. Most professional panels are 8-bit currently anyway.

We are an independant film production company and will be using the System for film DI work and commercials etc. We just outsource our HD-SDI layoff's (when needed) or master (or supply) our projects as data.

Would greatly appreciate any thoughts..
Thanks!
Seth.

[Richard Lackey]

I've been wondering the same thing. Lucas?

[Lucas Wilson]

Hi guys,

I think the answer for now is pretty simple. The Dreamcolor does not accept an SDI input. The NVidia cards do not do anything greater than 8-bit on DVI output.

Tab A does not fit into Slot B.

It would be cool for several applications if DVI would output greater than 8-bit. But it doesn't and probably will not anytime soon. So for right now, HD-SDI is the viable path.

Best,

Lucas

[Bruce Allen]

...or ATI/AMD?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[John Tissavary]

I'm wondering if there's a good, reasonably priced HD/SDI to HDMI 1.3 or Displayport i/o converter? Not being much of a video hardware geek I'm fairly unaware of the options, but wouldn't this be a reasonable way to feed the Dreamcolor?

I really hope manufacturers jump on displayport quickly - this seems to be a much nicer option than DVI & HD-SDI. Nvidia is listed as a supporter of the spec - anybody have an idea when they plan on releasing compatible hardware :)?

cheers,

jt

[Darren Orange]

It "looks" like this Gefen Box (http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4211) would convert dual link HD-SDI to HDMI in 10-bit. Key word "looks".

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4211

[Gabriele Turchi]

It's from a long time that i would ask to clarify this point : 8Bit DVI VS 10 Bit SDI,

Right now I am working as a retoucher in the photography business ,so i know pretty well how important is to have the right monitor for the Job , i am using The Eizo CG 211 (calibrated every weeks using the gretag Eye one Pro) and I have to say that what i see in my Eizo is really the same image that come out from my printer Epson 7800/4800 (also linearizated and profilated every months)

I am approaching to do the color grading of my stuff (actually i am still waiting my RED one...),so i am looking for the hardware and software etc...
And Scratch off course it's one possibility.

Talking about the monitor , i think that it's easy to understand that a dual link SDI display like the ecinema DPX is the best on the market , and i would trust it

But i really want to understand why and How a dual link SDI instead of a DVI connection could compromise the grading process,

Ok, 8 bit VS 10 Bit , but does it really compromise the grading?
I mean a monitor like the eizo CG241W wich offer hardware calibration and it cover the 96 of the adobe RGB it can't be considerate a good option because doesn't offer an SDI connection?

Or maybe this new HP?

What about grading a 444 material or RAW material using single link SDI ?
I can really understand the difference between grading 422 material instead of 444 material , but in terms of monitoring the grading could really change the results ?


PS: Off course i am talking about all the DVI monitor with a good LCD panel and not a monitor like the Apple Cinema Display etc...


So,are we sure that SDI is the only way to go to do a good job?
Or have an SDI monitor it's a must because many many hardware work with that standard?


PSS:what about the calibration procedure for the Dreamcolor? It's automatic hardware based or what?

Thanks


G

[Seth Larney]

Thanks for the speedy reply Lucas :)

I guess the other option would be to use the panel via 8-bit DVI until more cards are available that support both the Dreamcolor and Scratch. Obviously this isn't as ideal as viewing 10-bits, but then most (all?) high end panels used for DI work actually display 8-bits anyway, right?

I guess the question would be :

Color accuracy of DVI aside. Would the fact that you are only feeding the panel 8-bits from the video card, have any nagative effect as opposed to a more standard approach of feeding the panel 10-bits and having it downconvert it to 8-bits before the lcd? Would we be losing any fidelity/accuracy? would it have any effect of luts etc? ... or is there something else that I am missing that would not make this viable (in theory) for DI work? (perhaps this is a question that can't be answered without testing, but I'm hoping that you might have an opinion Lucas?)

Even if we can't display 10-bits from Scratch to this panel, it would still seem to be a viable option for high end work? - providing that it does what HP says it does (obviously this is a big if).

Cheers,
Seth.

[Seth Larney]

PSS:what about the calibration procedure for the Dreamcolor? It's automatic hardware based or what?
G

Hi Gabriele,

From what I've been able to ascertain, the Dreamcolor has it's own calibration probe (or other hardware).

[MichaelP]

I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks michael

Do you have any broadcast monitor to compare with the Dreamcolor?
Please teell us someting more how you decided for the Dreamcolor

So basically you use the HDlink to convert an SDI signal into DVI?

Thanks!

G

[Tai Wah Lim]

I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael

Michael, check and does not see if the HDlink Pro out DVI at 10 bits or using HDMI 1.3 that support 10bits color. Lim

[Seth Larney]

I am using the Dreamcolor and the Blackmagic HDLink Pro. Works just fine.

Michael

Aha, thanks Michael!

Do you know if the output from the HDLINK over DVI/HDMI is 10-bit?

Are you connecting to the Dreamcolor via DVI or HDMI?

How is the color reproduction going through the HDLINK? Do you think that it would be a viable setup for color critical DI work?

Thank again!
Seth.

[MichaelP]

I am just starting the tests. I can go either DVI or HDMI from my Avid hardware. I chose the HDLink Pro so I can test 1D and 3D LUTs into the path. I am on vacation for the next two weeks, but will get back into when I return.

Michael

[Seth Larney]

Thanks Michael, much appreciated..

[bgervais]

The Hdlink Pro does not support 10-bit output from the DVI output.

a bit of background here:
even though DVI and HDMI support the same signaling protocols, the DVI spec only allows for a maximum of 1920x1200 at 8 bits. If you go up to 10 bits, then those 2 extra bits need to be carried by dual-link DVI (most newer ATI video cards support this)

HDMI (the type you are used to using anyways) is single link only. So a simple adapter will not allow you to convert a dual-link DVI 10-bit output to HDMI even if it was available. (there is a dual-link type of HDMI, but for all intents and purposes it is obsolete)

The thing to look for when making sure a HDMI link will support 10-bit transport is that it is HDMI 1.3 or later certified (They call this feature "deep color")

The manual for the Gefen Converter above does not specify what version of HDMI it is compliant with, so an email to them might be in order.

As for the comment that any DI work is done on LCD monitors - Any reputable post house that is doing their 'color critical' work on an LCD right now would not be very reputable (at least if it was for a film finish). The only currently available LCD monitor that I'd even consider for a DI would be the sony BVM series of LCD monitors. (10-bit panels, LED backlight, black frame insertion, high quality processing...) It's all downhill from there. Most DI suites that I've been in also usually use projectors, and a good Christie projector will be able to display at least 12-bits.

The Dreamcolour looks promising though, but you've got to be sure everything in your image chain supports 10-bits - if using DVI that means software, drivers, operating system, video card, cables, monitor. HD-Sdi is rather simpler, needing only the hardware & monitor.

The reason we really need 10 bits (or higher) is that as we go to wide-gamut photography (beyond rec 709 colours) the 'steps' between 8-bit (per channel) colours become further apart (the primaries are further apart on the CIE chromacity chart). As a result, we begin to notice the transitions between colours as posterization. So you've got to up the bit-depth to compensate (smaller steps between the colours)

Of course, 10-bits also has advantages for us when we're working in rec 709, especially when we're in DI and we want to pull more detail out of a particularly compressed tonal range, the more data we have there to start, the more detail we can emphasize.

After that it all gets tossed out the window if it goes to broadcast (ATSC is only 8-bit).

So unless you're going to film, or blu-ray, you're finishing for an 8-bit medium. (and even if you're finishing for blu-ray, you have got to be sure the consumer's panel and player can support 10-bit...) It's going to be an uphill fight to get 10 bits all the way to the consumer/viewer over the next 15 years or so...

A good, calibrated, 8-bit display that covers 100% of rec 709/sRGB (same primaries & white point as sRGB) will be just fine for you if you're finishing for TV, for the next while anyways.

Cheers,
Ben Gervais
Digital Engineer / Freelance - Toronto

[MichaelP]

Here is an initial review from July 1:

http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/currentissue/9633.html


Michael

[Trevor Meier]

I wonder if Blackmagic's new Mini-converter will pass the full 10-bits per channel through to HDMI?

http://blackmagic-design.com/products/miniconverters/

I've sent an inquiry to check...

[Seth Larney]

I wonder if Blackmagic's new Mini-converter will pass the full 10-bits per channel through to HDMI?

http://blackmagic-design.com/products/miniconverters/

I've sent an inquiry to check...

This could be really interesting ..

According to the specs as listed here : compass.com/product/355697.html

..The unit does support 4:4:4 over dual link, which doesn't mean that it passes 10-bit out the HDMI, but it's a start.

It could be the solution providing it plays nicely.. please let me know what you hear back from BM!

Cheers,
Seth.

[Richard Lackey]

As for the comment that any DI work is done on LCD monitors - Any reputable post house that is doing their 'color critical' work on an LCD right now would not be very reputable (at least if it was for a film finish). The only currently available LCD monitor that I'd even consider for a DI would be the sony BVM series of LCD monitors. (10-bit panels, LED backlight, black frame insertion, high quality processing...) It's all downhill from there. Most DI suites that I've been in also usually use projectors, and a good Christie projector will be able to display at least 12-bits.

What about Cinemage?

[John Tissavary]

The Hdlink Pro does not support 10-bit output from the DVI output.

As for the comment that any DI work is done on LCD monitors - Any reputable post house that is doing their 'color critical' work on an LCD right now would not be very reputable (at least if it was for a film finish). The only currently available LCD monitor that I'd even consider for a DI would be the sony BVM series of LCD monitors. (10-bit panels, LED backlight, black frame insertion, high quality processing...) It's all downhill from there. Most DI suites that I've been in also usually use projectors, and a good Christie projector will be able to display at least 12-bits.



Agreed on most points, but I would choose the Cine-Tal Cinemage over the Sony for many reasons, not least of which is both price & performance. eCinema Systems has some fantastic DI monitors available and in the works, too.

But I'm most excited about the Dreamcolor. BTW, Decklink HDExtreme does 10bit HDMI out, as well as dual stream SDI out. But I'm not sure if/how it would work w. Scratch. If it does, that seems like a pretty nice budget solution for 10-bit output to a variety of HDMI 1.3 capable displays.


cheers,

jt

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Scratch and the DreamColor monitor seems like a match made in DI heaven. With the demise of grade 1 CRT monitors and the expense of offerings from CineTal and eCinema the attraction is great.

According to Lucas the output from the nVidia cards is 8 bit in DVI/HDMI and 10 bit from the HD-SDI daughtercard. There must be an AJA or BMD converter that would transcode the 10 bit signal from HD-SDI to DVI/HDMI to feed the DreamColor. Other than cost, what is the downside of just hanging a converter off the daughtercard?

Assuming you could get the converter and monitor for $4K it might be the hook-up.

[Trevor Meier]

FYI the Gefen is not HDMI 1.3 compliant:

http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7031

[Seth Larney]

FYI the Gefen is not HDMI 1.3 compliant:

http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7031

Hey Trevor,

Have you heard anything back from BMD yet about their mini converter?

If only Nvidia had 10-bit dual-link DVI on their Quadro's..

[Seth Larney]

Scratch and the DreamColor monitor seems like a match made in DI heaven. With the demise of grade 1 CRT monitors and the expense of offerings from CineTal and eCinema the attraction is great.

According to Lucas the output from the nVidia cards is 8 bit in DVI/HDMI and 10 bit from the HD-SDI daughtercard. There must be an AJA or BMD converter that would transcode the 10 bit signal from HD-SDI to DVI/HDMI to feed the DreamColor. Other than cost, what is the downside of just hanging a converter off the daughtercard?

Assuming you could get the converter and monitor for $4K it might be the hook-up.


I absolutely agree on all points. We just need a 10-bit HD-SDI to HDMI converter ..
.. or to get by with 8-bit output until Nvidia brings out a 10-bit DVI option on their Quadro's.

[Trevor Meier]

Nothing from BMD on the mini-converters...

For the non-Scratch users out there... are there any 10-bit HDMI cards out there? (e.g. BMD's Intensity card)

[Gabriele Turchi]

Guys could you please explain to me why those 2 bit are so important for DI,

I mean i completely understand the differences to grading 444 instead of 422 , uncompressed instead compressed etc...

1- But in monitoring those 2 extra bit does really could compromise the grading?

2- Does the dreamcolor show 10 bit?

3- are we sure that any kind of sdi--dvi converter don't introduce any other kind of problem?

PS: is it correct say that dvi is RGB 444 ?

I am really excited bout the dreamcolor too...but it seems that nobody yet did a comparison test closer to any other DI Monitor...

Thank you

[Darren Orange]

8 Bit means it shows in the case of Log 2 to the 8th power, while 10 bit is 2 to the 10th power. This is the number of values from absolute white to absolute black. If you do the math its a fairly major difference.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

OK, so the HP does 10bit, but what about black levels, color reprodution, refresh, viewing angle and so on? I think those might be more important than 10bits panel.

Also, what about the CRT grade1 Sony monitors (20"-24"), do they truly show 10bit colors?

[Seth Larney]

OK, so the HP does 10bit, but what about black levels, color reprodution, refresh, viewing angle and so on? I think those might be more important than 10bits panel.

Also, what about the CRT grade1 Sony monitors (20"-24"), do they truly show 10bit colors?

Hi Macgregor,

The black levels, color reproduction and viewing angle are all very good (according to reports), which is why I am considering this as a serious DI option (obviously there are more suitable options out there, but for the money.)

As you say, without these things a monitor is simply unsuitable for any serious DI work.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IMHO within the context of grading RedOne footy where you start with RAW color at a nominal 12 linear bits, seeing 10 bits on the monitor vs 8 bits matters quite a bit (sic). If anyone on the forum has personal experience with the real world performance of the DreamColor monitor please share. In the meantime, I will look at the design parameters and the folks involved in the dev and hope they hit their target.

Advances in LCD monitor tech, notably LED instead of CCFL backlighting, make it theoretically possible to get far closer to the gold standard of a grade 1 CRT than in the past. You may still have to shell out the bucks for CineTal or eCinema to get CRTish blacks, but that is not financially viable for a lot of people.

When I worked in print, the top end "soft proofing" monitors were designed specifically for our vertical market, and they were much better than the general market offerings because the engineering envelope was so specific. If HP has done their job, then the DreamColor monitors just might offer an affordable option for the legions of people who will be grading RedOne footy without benefit of a full on post facility. Just sayin'

[Trevor Meier]

My dealer dropped off a Dreamcolor at one of the top labs in town today. They plugged it in to a deck via an HD-SDI -> HDMI converter box (don't know which one) and the response was a resounding "Holy S***". That bodes well...

[Gabriele Turchi]

Does anybody know if there is any chances to see the dreamcolor in New York?

Come guys post some comparison thoughts...

Thanks

G

[Mark L. Pederson]

Does anybody know if there is any chances to see the dreamcolor in New York?

Come guys post some comparison thoughts...

Thanks

G
Eval unit on the way.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Great!

Please post some impression soon!

Do you have any others ref monitor to compare with?

Thanks
Gabriele

[Gabriele Turchi]

Hi Mark ,

did you test the dream color?

thanks


G

[Simon Blackledge]

My dealer dropped off a Dreamcolor at one of the top labs in town today. They plugged it in to a deck via an HD-SDI -> HDMI converter box (don't know which one) and the response was a resounding "Holy S***". That bodes well...


Which converter ? full 10bit from Dual Link ?

s

[Trevor Meier]

I don't know which one it was, but AFAIK there are no 10-bit dual link converters out there yet, which means it was 8-bit only. And they were still very impressed.

[John Tissavary]

MOTU V4HD (http://www.v4hd.com/) looks promising for this. It can do HD SDI to HDMI with an internal 12bit processing and 10bit out.

I'm waiting on clarification to the question: will FX4600 SDI output > MOTU V4HD > HDMI maintain a full 10 bits per pixel all the way through the pipeline. Will report back when I get an answer.

JT

[Gabriele Turchi]

Guys as soon as someone (the new nvidia quadro?)will release a display port compatible card the signal will be 10 bit right?

G

[Seth Larney]

Guys as soon as someone (the new nvidia quadro?)will release a display port compatible card the signal will be 10 bit right?

G

As long as the drivers support it, it should be.

The current nVidia chipsets support 10-bit on paper, but not in reality yet.

[Bruce Allen]

Hmm, the GeForce 260 and 280 should have 10-bit output via DisplayPort with their driver release R180... coming between sept 08 and feb 09.

The Inquirer (not always the most reliable source ;) ironically isn't too impressed (saying of the new features that "only one in there worth getting excited over is SLI on multi-monitors", haha):
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/25/nvidia-big-bang-ii-nothing

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[John Tissavary]

Here's the correspondence with MOTU regarding their new V4HD i/o box. It's not cheap, but it's quite powerful, versatile, etc... and can power a number of displays simultaneously:

I run Scratch through an Nvidia Quadro FX4600 SDI card for monitoring. I want to use the new HP Dreamcolor monitor, but it has DVI, HDMI 1.3, Displayport inputs, no SDI. So I was hoping to use your box for, among other things, true 10-bit conversion from HD SDI to HDMI 1.3. This would need to be 10 bits all the way, since I'm trying to get a 1920x1080 progressive signal into the Dreamcolor.

Is this possible with V4HD?

Yes. The V4HD passes a full raster 10 bit 1920X1080 signal from input to output.

Dave Roberts - MOTU


That's one solution to run the Dreamcolor with Scratch from Nvidia now.

regards,

John T.

[Trevor Meier]

Looks like the V4HD is still 4:2:2 10-bit, which may or may not be a problem depending on your workflow. It also appears to be a ProRes-type device similar to the ioHD from AJA... be interesting to know if it has an uncompressed "convert-only" mode.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Good point trevor...

Excluding the source material that we are grading (lets say RAW (so 444 etc..)),and just talking about how to monitor the color grading :

what about the difference between :

single link sdi (10 bit 422)
dual link sdi (10 444)
dvi (8 bit (444?))
display port (10 bit (444?)

I mean in terms of monitoring is better sdi 10 bit 422 or 8 bit dvi?if you don't have dual link monitor off course ...

PS:the Nvidia quadro can autput dual link 444 right?but also only single link of the same source right?



Thanks

G

[John Tissavary]

Looks like the V4HD is still 4:2:2 10-bit, which may or may not be a problem depending on your workflow. It also appears to be a ProRes-type device similar to the ioHD from AJA... be interesting to know if it has an uncompressed "convert-only" mode.

Yes, it's 4:2:2 10-bit, and compressed like the AJA ioHD.

I'm not too concerned about the 4:2:2 as I have yet to see the difference in playback between that and 4:4:4 (it's the working pliability that makes the latter more desirable to me), but the compressed output would definitely need to be compared to straight SDI.

jt

[Gabriele Turchi]

Guy may i ask a few word about the bit depth per channel?

I am trying to understand the relationship between the bit depth per channel importance of the monitor and of the video output , to try to figure out what features made a monitor for grading entry , good , great etc... (off course there more are characteristics that are important ...)

In this thread i have learned that DVI is 8 bit and SDI is 10 bit , and you say that those 2 bit could be a quite enough difference...

1)when we say bit per channel we mean for the RGB , so 8x3-->24 , but SDI single link could be considered RGB so 10x3 ? (i thought that only SDI dual link is RGB)

It seems that the dreamcolor is 10x3--->30, the Tv Logic is 24 bit , the eCinema Pro series is 16 bit per channel.....!!!

2)How can we relate with number? I mean in the case of the Tv Logic is a waste investe money to use a sdi connection (quadro SDI) instead of a quadro DVI considering that the diaplay is 8 bit?

3)What about the case of the eCinema , are those 48 bit so relevant considering that the SDI carry 30 ?

4)Is dual Link SDI 30 bit or more ?

5)Is the quality of the DVI from Quadro the same quality of a DVI from the 8800 for example or any other DVI or is better signal for some reason ? (i am talking about the GPU power off course)

Thanks


G

[John Tissavary]

1)when we say bit per channel we mean for the RGB , so 8x3-->24 , but SDI single link could be considered RGB so 10x3 ? (i thought that only SDI dual link is RGB)

Yes - SDI is 4:2:2 which is YCbCr, dual link SDI is RGB 4:4:4 The color sampling is was allows the same resolution to travel along each variant of this interface. Its also possible to multiplex an additional 2 bits for a 12 bit 4:4:4 signal over dual link SDI.

10bits is the same as 30bits in a three channel system like YCbCr or RGB. So SDI = 30 bits, and DVI = 24 bits. I'm accustomed to seeing bit depth represented per-channel, so I usually discuss in terms of 8, 10, 12, or 16 bits.


2)How can we relate with number? I mean in the case of the Tv Logic is a waste investe money to use a sdi connection (quadro SDI) instead of a quadro DVI considering that the diaplay is 8 bit? ...3)What about the case of the eCinema , are those 48 bit so relevant considering that the SDI carry 30 ?

eCinema Pro series is 16 bit per channel _processing_, but I'm going to guess the LCD panel is 10 bits per channel, as I'm not aware of any panels available with more.

The more bits used for processing, the greater the mathematical precision of the resulting colors - but that is only during processing, not input or output. Being able to display 10 bits is advantageous over 8 bits, you'll see the difference most easily in darker smooth gradients, fog, smoke, etc... . Is this essential to color grading? I don't think so, but it helps. And there are definitely some circumstances where it can be difficult to grade in an 8 bit display chain.


4)Is dual Link SDI 30 bit or more ?

30 or 36 bits, i.e. 10 or 12 bits


5)Is the quality of the DVI from Quadro the same quality of a DVI from the 8800 for example or any other DVI or is better signal for some reason ? (i am talking about the GPU power off course)

The 8800 is the same GPU as the Quadro FX 4600. The difference is that certain features are disabled in the GeForce series. If you need extensive pro-level support for openGL, then the Quadro series is needed. Typically these happen in 3d openGL, but Scratch uses the FX series gpu for rendering scaffolds (secondaries) in real time, as well. I'm not too familiar with the details, but that's the basic difference. To my understanding, the DVI output of both series would be indetical, but if you want SDI output you have to go for the FX for now.

I'm really hoping that Nvidia gets a 10bit displayport and/or HDMI 1.3 capable card out. I think their entire range of gaming & pro cards should come with these at least as options.


cheers,

John T.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks Lunacie

In which case dual link is 12 bit ( i mean always ? the quadro FX SDI?)
What about Dual link DVI doesn't carry 10 bit ? (only Hdmi 1.3 or display port?)


This monitor choice is so difficult... when the price range is so large ... also every kind of Monitor brochure report different voices and features (for example sometimes they don't report the panel bit depth , sometimes the don't speak about the calibration method , sometimes they don't speak about many many features that they have...)

Is a jungle , i think the only way is to " try all of them " but is quite difficult...

PS:Maybe a stupid question , may i ask the role of RGB and Yuv in the Monitor ? I mean all the monitor works in RGB or Not?....

Anyway guys, any experience with other brand ?

For example What about eCinema versus TvLogc VS JVC ?

Thanks


G

[Blair S. Paulsen]

A few notes from the field, just my 2¢: I have an eCinema and have spent some time with the Cine-Tal, both are more CRTish than any other LCD options I have seen as of NAB 2008. In the more reasonably priced tier I think the JVC deserves praise and I prefer it to the widely used BT-series Pannys (tho the Pannys get points for being rugged). There are some interesting options for pre-processing and then displaying images on the Apple Cinema Displays that deserve a positive note.

I have a DreamColor on order and look forward to seeing it side by side with the eCinema. I am very interested in finding an affordable 10 bit capable solution for driving the DreamColor from the HD-SDI daughter-card on the nVidia 5600 - presumably via HDMI. I will report my impressions as soon as the monitor arrives.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks Blair!!!

Wow looks like you have experience with the best monitor!

Yes please tell us you impression about the Dreamcolor as soon as possible!

May i ask you please which eCinema you have?
Do you think that it worth the price??why??

I am very attracted by the Pro series but honestly i don't have any experience with any Broadcast monitor ( i am coming from photography business(Eizo Monitor)and i am approaching the Color Grading for Film only now...)

I want to start in right direction , with the proper hardware but i know that sometimes the big price difference it doesn't mean big differences in terms of quality...


PS:what about the option for the Apple cinema display?are you talking about the MXO ?

Thanks

G

[Fredrik Harreschou]

In the more reasonably priced tier I think the JVC deserves praise and I prefer it to the widely used BT-series Pannys (tho the Pannys get points for being rugged).

Agreed. I have one of those JVC 24's w SDI and it sucks a lot less than the Pannys... :usd:
OTOH, I have been watching this thread and I find it surprising that you guys are so eager to find all your solutions in the Dreamcolor. If you are running SCRATCH, saving a grand over several months, while waiting, well...

[Seth Larney]

Hi Frederik,

The attraction of the Dreamcolor for me is being able to do away with HD-SDI completely. So .. saving ALOT more than a grand.

But this depends completely on displayport 10-bit becoming viable..

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The eCinema DCM-23 that I have is a wonderful monitor but at $18K list its a serious investment for a smaller shop. I got a look at Martin's new offerings at NAB where he was showing an entry level panel for $5K that I thought looked a little better than the JVC but not as rugged. The mid range monitor line included a 40" that might be a killer client monitor. The top end unit was very nice and very expensive - like over $50K if I remember right :ohmy:

In any case, if you are new to color correction for moving images the first step is really the viewing environment. Be aware that ambient color bias, adjacent light sources (you want your eye's iris open just the right amount), etc can have more influence than you think - heck, I even wear a black shirt and cover the keyboard with black duve but I'm a little obsessive.

Bottom line, getting 10 bits all the way to the panel for less than the cost of a new car is a game changer. If the DreamColor is the sh*t and we can drive it at 10 bits with a dual link HD-SDI to HDMI 1.3 converter off the daughtercard life is good. I should have my eval unit in a few days and I am seriously geeked up.

I look forward to filing a report - maybe I can even get JT to join the party.

[Evin Grant]

From what I can tell from the documentation the Black Magic Multibridge extreme I'm currently using supports 10bit out of it's dual link DVI output. It uses 14bit internal processing and is connected directly to the PCI-E bus. I do not know if Scratch can use this pipe for output or if it needs to be off the Quadro but at least for CS3, FCP and Color you should able to get 10bit to your Dreamcolor this way.

http://www.decklink.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/

[GlennChan]

The DCM23 can be had for a third that price now... (yikes). Technology moves, uh, fast...

2- I remember the top-end eCinema (the DPX24) being about $37,500 (with input cards). It doesn't seem like $50k?? (Or maybe the 40" one is.)

2- Viewing environment: Yeah a good viewing environment is a good idea. But I've seen enough high-end facilities with sub-optimal viewing environments... tungsten lighting, lighting hitting the face of a CRT (there goes the black level), etc.

3- Gabriele: I'd try and get a demo of the JVC 24" DT-something and the FX series from eCinema... those were the most promising monitors I saw at NAB for a cost-effective monitoring solution. And maybe some of the other monitors depending on your needs.

List of broadcast monitor manufacturers (http://www.broadcastreferencemonitors.com/manufacturers/listing.htm)

4- I like HD-SDI... if you need to deal with VTRs, you want HD-SDI to be able to monitor the deck correctly.

5- The HP display being 10-bit: This seems to me to be highly overrated.

It seems to me that you'll only get 10-bits going to the monitor once the DVI hardware/video card *and* your software supports it.
Or else go through HD-SDI (10-bit Y'CbCr; you lose a small amount of precision going between Y'CbCr and R'G'B') into a 10-bit panel (eCinema claims the FX24 is a 10-bit panel). So it's not really anything new.

3b- How the display is implemented will make a difference too... e.g. what kind of dithering they use and how the calibration is done, precision of the processing, the gamut of the backlight, etc. For Rec. 709, a wide gamut backlight is actually a slightly bad thing as your bit depth will be spread over a larger gamut, a lot of which will be wasted.

[Seth Larney]

From what I can tell from the documentation the Black Magic Multibridge extreme I'm currently using supports 10bit out of it's dual link DVI output. It uses 14bit internal processing and is connected directly to the PCI-E bus. I do not know if Scratch can use this pipe for output or if it needs to be off the Quadro but at least for CS3, FCP and Color you should able to get 10bit to your Dreamcolor this way.

http://www.decklink.com/products/multibridge/techspecs/

Thanks Evin. Lucas, is this an option? My spidey sense says no.. only Quadro?

Cheers

[Simon Blackledge]

Scratch runs off the GPU so with the daughter card having SDI the image is then pumped out through that.

If you look at Apple Color, you can select blackmagic cards for preview out but this does have a hit on the FPS.

I suspect things will change soon though..


Si

[Gabriele Turchi]

guys i have a question:

What about for the grading that is going to print on film?

Does this influence the choice of the monitor?

Or for that target we need just a REC 709 capable display and add a print LUT by scratch etc...?

PS:how doest it works the calibration for the eCinema FX?It's something automatic (connecting the probe (which one?)) like the Eizo monitor for example?

Thanks

G

[Mike Harrington]

is scratch totally nvidia dependant? (i suppose it is)

ati has some new firepro ...(not firegl)...cards out, it's a lower priced line
$599 gets you 10 bit display port output
http://ati.amd.com/products/firepro/firepromatrix.html

would be nice to have some other options
these may not be up to the task, I was just wondering how dependant scratch is on the Nvidia quadro

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Glenn makes several observations I share and brings up several cogent issues I chose to ignore for brevity. In any case, I am getting a DreamColor and I will post my personal impressions to the forum in hopes it may assist someone in choosing a monitor.

In terms of 10 bit vs 8 bit there has been many years of effort put into getting the best possible results from an 8 bit panel. It may take a while before the engineers can optimize dithering and other key elements in the presentation of the image for the human eye with the added available precision of 10 bits. My understanding of mathematics and visual science leads me to believe the extra 2 bits really will make a difference, time will tell if I am right or wrong about that.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Guys maybe stupid question:

SDI 10 bit uncompressed(yuv single link.... RGB dual link).....
DVI 8 bit....uncompressed RGB?
Dispaly port 10 bit RGB uncompressed ????

PS:sorry , but may i ask again if the fact that my color gading is going to be printed on film influence the choice of the monitor?
I mean for film out the monitor have to calibrated in the same way as for broadcast (rec 709) + LUT to emulate the Film?


Thanks

G

[Simon Blackledge]

Gabriele, you could email Evangelos at http://www.motionfx.gr/

He talked to me a while ago about a system for film grading using a sony crt for film grading.

S

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks i'll do it

may i refer to your name?

so this means that there are particular consideration that have to be done about the monitor for Film out..?Or that he have a working workflow for that, so it would be a useful experience to listen..?

Thanks

G

[Gabriele Turchi]

About calibration

as i said i am coming from Phot retouching and printing

In my workflow i use to set my Eizo at 90cd/m2 5700K

What is the specification for REC 709 ? I mean , when you guys calibrate your monitor for broadcast grading do you choose the brightness value , color temperature...and what else??

Maybe for Film Out grading should set with less brightness value (like photography?)
And maybe a lees contrast monitor could be better?....or this is a stupid idea because the value of the contrast it doesn't mean super contrasty images...????

PS:The Gamut of Rec 709 is larger than sRGB ?


I know that i have asked a lot of question but anly you guys that have experince with that monitor can help me...


Thanks


g

[Simon Blackledge]

This is a massive subject dude.

talk to motionfx.

basically with grading fro film you want to grade wysiwyg like you do with print.

you grade with a viewing LUT applied. This shows you how it will appear on film. You then render out with no LUT once graded. Kinda like grading with rose tinted glasses, or in photoshop working with Proof Colours switched on with the correct proof setup selected for your priniter.

Getting the correct LUT is not easy or cheap.

Video rec709 is best done via sdi to a proper crt or highend lcd.

s

[Gabriele Turchi]

Thanks Flameop

I'll talk to that Guys

so is like i thought ...just a viewing LUT (like a proof color in photoshop is a perfect example!)

Mmm...How create have that correct LUT i 'll think about it at the right time (i mean after have the system...)


So you are saying that the monitor should be the same and calibrated in the say way for REC 709?

by the way what parameter have Rec709 ? Brightness , gamma , temperature? (and off course the monitor should have a panel with a enough gamut to cover that space..right?)

Blair s. Paulsen : How do you calibrate your Ecinema?

Thanks

G

[Simon Blackledge]

Film Lut creation HW> http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/products/truelight

or look into

http://cinespace.risingsunresearch.com/

Si

[Gabriele Turchi]

Cienespace was in my list..

Thanks a lot
PS: i wrote to evangelos

Guys but the eCinema have a hardwrare calibration like the eizo?

I mean using a spectrophotometer (probe) collegate to the monitor , than by a software choosing the settings like brightness value , gamma value ,etc...and than is all automatic?


Thanks

G

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Simon (flameop), thanks for your kind words,

I'm having the same problems as you guys, I have to find a proper monitor. My last FW900 CRT has just being dead... A client from Israel Ido Korila just got one refurbished... He tried to calibrate and profile a JVC broadcast LCD and it wasn't successful to much decoupling error, thats lack of gamut... The FW900 was just one day of attention and evuala the profile is almost perfect...

The EIZO CG241W didnt make it, the JVC DT24 didnt make it either...

The best profile until now its from the projector JVC DLA-HD1 connected to an ATI 1900 card threw a DVI to HDMI cable... The new JVC DLA-HD100 with HDMI 1,3 (10bit RGB) is super...

I see the Dreamcolor, because of the 1,3 HDMI, as a possible contended but I dont have it in hand to test it I will request a demo from HP... but whatever is reaching the 3K euros mark it make s more sexy to have a projector (even in a close distance) because you have reflected light and not transmitted... the reflected is better because you have the same form of light as the film projection...

As for LUTs and film out as I said in the past there is NO generic LUT for film out that will give an acurrate (98%) representation of what you will see in the projection.

LUTs are created specifically for your display device and they are good for couple of days, if you don't turn off your monitor... even as a sleep mode.

If you use generic then its expected a 60% accuracy if you are lucky... same will claim better performance, but I being there done that, and its bad really bad...

LUT's are depended on filmrecorder/developing-lab/negative-emulsion/positive-emulsion relation and its very hard to make that relation 100% repeatable. So as I have said if you want to do a filmout with custom LUT's you have two solutions either go to your filmout facility and do the grading in their calibrated viewing room and pay the premium or partner with a LAB that is willing to transfer to you all his know how in color managment and get from him the LUT's.

We are doing the last one, we offer the know how for a very small on time fee and then we supply free LUT's for your sessions and we print your film in our recorders... Lasergraphics and Arrilaser... CRT for camera negative and Laser for internegative. All that in a very competitive pricing.

Thats it, simple... my email is Lakis@motionfx.gr Gabriele...

Attached are the Cinespace decoupling errors from various clients around the world, first two are from the FW900 then its the EIZO CG241W then the JVC DL24 and then the best performer the JVC DLA-HD1 projector...

[Simon Blackledge]

No problem Evangelos..

there's one here for sale

http://www.mccominc.com/frm_productdetail.aspx?CategoryID=13

hope your well..

cheers

Si

[Shawn Nelson]

I really dug this thread, but there were a ton of 'I'll try that out and get back to everyone' and it's been awhile...where'd those reviews go?

[Gabriele Turchi]

Nobody of those were waiting got the Dreamcolor ?

G

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Actually, my vendor has my DreamColor at their shop. I saw it last week running at 8 bits and looking decent. Right now the lead tech guy is waiting on a Blackmagic card he hopes will deliver a 10 bit signal over HDMI derived from the HD-SDI daughter card on the nVidia 5600 GPU.

More news when I have some.

[Benjamin Rowland]

I wonder if this monitor is as good as HP says it is. I hope so!

[Gabriele Turchi]

Any word from all those guys that was waiting for the evaluation unit?

G

[Peter Moretti]

Is there a currently produced equivalent to the FW-900?

[Simon Blackledge]

Is there a currently produced equivalent to the FW-900?

nope.

s

[Peter Moretti]

Do you feel the FW-900 was especially good, or were most of the very high-end CRT's in the same class?

EIZO, NEC and Samsung also made top-of-the-line CRT's. Just wondering if you feel one of those could compare to the FW-900?

Thanks much.


P.S. This new NEC looks promising for around $300, however its 1600 X 1200 resolution is considerably less than the FW-900's.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002090

[Peter Moretti]

One thing I really don't understand is do you have to use HDMI or HD-SDI to drive a monitor?

If I pick up a used high quality CRT computer monitor (like the Sony FW900), it will only have a D-Sub input. Can't I just run a wire from port two of my video card to the montor's D-Sub connector and be good to go?

[Peter Moretti]

Simon (flameop), thanks for your kind words,

I'm having the same problems as you guys, I have to find a proper monitor. My last FW900 CRT has just being dead... A client from Israel Ido Korila just got one refurbished... He tried to calibrate and profile a JVC broadcast LCD and it wasn't successful to much decoupling error, thats lack of gamut... The FW900 was just one day of attention and evuala the profile is almost perfect...

The EIZO CG241W didnt make it, the JVC DT24 didnt make it either...

The best profile until now its from the projector JVC DLA-HD1 connected to an ATI 1900 card threw a DVI to HDMI cable... The new JVC DLA-HD100 with HDMI 1,3 (10bit RGB) is super...

I see the Dreamcolor, because of the 1,3 HDMI, as a possible contended but I dont have it in hand to test it I will request a demo from HP... but whatever is reaching the 3K euros mark it make s more sexy to have a projector (even in a close distance) because you have reflected light and not transmitted... the reflected is better because you have the same form of light as the film projection...

As for LUTs and film out as I said in the past there is NO generic LUT for film out that will give an acurrate (98%) representation of what you will see in the projection.

LUTs are created specifically for your display device and they are good for couple of days, if you don't turn off your monitor... even as a sleep mode.

If you use generic then its expected a 60% accuracy if you are lucky... same will claim better performance, but I being there done that, and its bad really bad...

LUT's are depended on filmrecorder/developing-lab/negative-emulsion/positive-emulsion relation and its very hard to make that relation 100% repeatable. So as I have said if you want to do a filmout with custom LUT's you have two solutions either go to your filmout facility and do the grading in their calibrated viewing room and pay the premium or partner with a LAB that is willing to transfer to you all his know how in color managment and get from him the LUT's.

We are doing the last one, we offer the know how for a very small on time fee and then we supply free LUT's for your sessions and we print your film in our recorders... Lasergraphics and Arrilaser... CRT for camera negative and Laser for internegative. All that in a very competitive pricing.

Thats it, simple... my email is Lakis@motionfx.gr Gabriele...

Attached are the Cinespace decoupling errors from various clients around the world, first two are from the FW900 then its the EIZO CG241W then the JVC DL24 and then the best performer the JVC DLA-HD1 projector...
Evangelos,

Isn't it true that decoupling error is an issue w/ 1-D LUTs? And that a 3-D LUT will not have this error since it works on R, G and B independently?

(I'm still new to this field, so I don't mean to sound smarter than I actually am, LOL.)

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Gabrielle, Bobby...

Ido at Israel has just completed successfully a full cycle test, he used an FW900...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18545

In the next days I will test projectors for the job since I strongly suggest that reflected light is much better than transmitted light, so when I will finish my research, that will take some time, I will have an answer until then JVC HD100 is the best and alternatively the FW900 still is the best. A projector can be used in a small room 4m x 3m easily, Blase at Contact Studios NY is using it very successfully in a room of 5m x 3m... Unfortunately neither Blackmagic supports 4:4:4 10bit HDMI, they do 1,2, so only 4:2:2 10bit in blackmagic, which is worst than 4:4:4 8bit... probably a new Nvidia or the 4000 ATI will do it...

Its true the 3D LUT is "trying to fix" the lack of gamut, but even then, the image is really ugly to show to a client and ask him to imagine how good it will be in the film projection...

[JanneJansson]

Hey guys.

- 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 = 20 bit
- 8 bit RGB = 24 bit
- 10 bit RGB = 30 bit

10 bit SDI usually have YCbCr encoding, and uses only 2x10 bit channels, 10 bit for luma and 10bit for chroma. So 3x8 RGB bit is more.

Sometimes when people say 12bit color, they just mean 10+12 bit = 22 bit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Digital_Interface

Cheers

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Exactly Janne... 8bit in 4:4:4 is better than 10bit in 4:2:2... we are looking for 10bit 4:4:4...

[Peter Moretti]

... Unfortunately neither Blackmagic supports 4:4:4 10bit HDMI, they do 1,2, so only 4:2:2 10bit in blackmagic, which is worst than 4:4:4 8bit... probably a new Nvidia or the 4000 ATI will do it...

Evangelos, thank you very much for the reply.

So if I understand correctly, wouldn't DVI or DSub actually provide a higher quality signal than HD-SDI or HDMI 2? As HD-SDI and HDMI 2 are 4:2:2 (YUV) 10 bit, while (I believe) DVI is 4:4:4 (RGB) 8bit and DSub is just DVI converted to analog.

Thanks again.

[hyperfocal]

I thought I would get the thread back on the topic of the HP monitor...

I purchased an LP2480zx last week, and am generally pleased with it. Great blacks, rich color, best viewing angle I've seen for the price, and LUT calibration.

I'm currrently grading about 25 spots shot with six RED cameras in Apple Color (they converted all .r3d files to ProResHQ). We're monitoring via a Kona LHe SDI 4:2:2 out into an HDLink box into the DreamColor. I also have a Sony PVM-14L5/1 for comparison via the analog outs of the card.

A few things about the monitor:

-I think the built-in calibration (i.e., colorspace selection) can only be used via DVI. Those options were greyed out when connecting a Blue-Ray player via HDMI, and an HD signal via component.

-The Rec-709 calibration is not perfect. I am unsure if their specific probe would help fix this in my setup (HDLink), as I think it might only be useful if you are connected directly to a graphics card. When connected to the graphics card directly, Rec-709 did not look anywhere close to how it looks via my HDLink. Also, the default Rec-709 puts brightness at around 49 footlamberts (actually higher than the SMPTE spec ot 24 or 29), however that was way too dark so I adjusted it by to eye to 150 FL. I also had to correct the white point slightly using the HDLink 1D LUT panel.

-Component input was crap. This was no surprise as I don't think the analog hardware is designed the way it is on a video monitor (i.e., my PVM or even my Panasonic consumer plasma). The signal was too saturated and colors were askew.

-There is little to no documentation as to how the calibration works, and again, what their probe would be useful for. I have tried to set the white point with an Eye-One Display2, but it ended up being way too warm. I wonder if that probe cannot accurately read LED screens.

I previously was using a similar setup. I had an Eizo CG241 with a Blackmagic HDLink Pro. I demo'd cineCube to try and generate a 3D LUT in REC-709 space. I was unsuccessful in finding a target profile that looked accurate (cineSpace provides two), and that is a whole other thread based on endless hours of testing... I placed that setup next to a JVC DT-V24L1DU, and they looked almost identical. But BOTH of those displays had terrible off-axis viewing. This HP blows viewing angle out of the water, and the Rec-709 LUT gets very close. I just need to find out how to calibrate it internally (there are no adjustments allowed besides xy mappings, black level, brightness). Perhaps that is what the HP probe is for, and maybe using it would calibrate the white point properly. The image also seems a tad saturated using this LUT.

In direct correspondence with BlackMagic, I was told none of their products (converters, cards, or otherwise) support the HDMI 1.3 spec to provide the 10-bit "deep color." This is from the horse's mouth. So far, I've yet to hear of a solution for getting SDI into this unit and maintaining 10-bits without compression or compromise.

Blair mentions he has dual-link DVI on his Multibridge, which sounds promising, though in my research the Multibridge doesn't have more than one DVI out.

We're always on the bleeding edge....

Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA

[Michael Thornton]

Does anyone know if eCinema still sell the converter boxes to be use with your own LCD, and does it support 10bits?

Tek

[Peter Moretti]

Hyperfocal,

It seems that almost no desktop monitor maker really implelments Rec 709 well. The gamma is more complicated than just plugging in 2.2. It has a linear portion at the darkest end. And even when when 2.2 is used for the expansion, the resulting value is then multiplied and divided by scaling factors, FWIU.

If I understand your post correctly, it seems that you were able to get the Eizo CG241's Rec 709 close to DreamColor's, but its off-angle viewing is nowhere near as good. Is that correct?

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

In direct correspondence with BlackMagic, I was told none of their products (converters, cards, or otherwise) support the HDMI 1.3 spec to provide the 10-bit "deep color." This is from the horse's mouth. So far, I've yet to hear of a solution for getting SDI into this unit and maintaining 10-bits without compression or compromise.


Ohhh I didnt read the "none" word... sorry Andrew I know the same...


"I have talked with BMD guys on the phone and they told me from the USA office that they don't support 1,3... Andrew, can you be more specific?"

[hyperfocal]

Hyperfocal,

It seems that almost no desktop monitor maker really implelments Rec 709 well. The gamma is more complicated than just plugging in 2.2. It has a linear portion at the darkest end. And even when when 2.2 is used for the expansion, the resulting value is then multiplied and divided by scaling factors, FWIU.

If I understand your post correctly, it seems that you were able to get the Eizo CG241's Rec 709 close to DreamColor's, but its off-angle viewing is nowhere
near as good. Is that correct?

Yes the linear portion of the shadows seem to be the hardest to map to an LCD, and that was my difficulty with cineSpace's HD targets (though their film targets, when taken through filmout tests, proved to be very accurate). When I dial in the DreamColor where I like it, I actually lose the 7.5 pluge bar, but it's the only way to put the black level where it needs to be compared to a CRT.

I did not do a side-by-side of the HP against the Eizo, so my accounts are based on how footage looked from memory (footage I shot and colored) on the Eizo against the current HP. Again, the Eizo had a 3D LUT generated by cineSpace inserted into the HDLink Pro (a process that took a bit of time to figure out).

The viewing angle of the DreamColor is excellent, as is the black level. It exceeds the Eizo in both of these areas. With the Eizo, even looking at it dead on, I would still see a change in contrast in the far corners of the screen. Eizo makes a great display, but IMO unsuitable for any environment where more than one viewer (I think that's part of the reasoning behind the hood).


Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA

[shannyla]

Also, the default Rec-709 puts brightness at around 49 footlamberts (actually higher than the SMPTE spec ot 24 or 29), however that was way too dark so I adjusted it by to eye to 150 FL

150FL!!!? You are joking surely, that would be as bright as the sun... That is nearly 500 CD/M2, ten times brighter than a cinema screen...

I can only assume your measurement device is reading CD/M2, or it is very broken.

[hyperfocal]

Doh! I double checked, and the unit displays brightness as cd/m2. So in eyeballing it, the screen is at about 44 fl (150 cd/m2). Per SMPTE I'd need to be 99 cd/m2, which still feels too dark. Sorry for the confusion!

Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA

[Tonaci Tran]

Got my DreamColor but haven't had time to put it through its paces yet. Bummed to hear about the limited calibration toolset when feeding via HDMI. I should be able to provide some notes next week.

[Peter Moretti]

... When I dial in the DreamColor where I like it, I actually lose the 7.5 pluge bar, but it's the only way to put the black level where it needs to be compared to a CRT. ...

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply.

BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by "lose." Shouldn't the 7.5 bar be completely black and indistinguishable from the 3.5 bar?

[Helge Løken]

Have anyone checked out the Davio from Cine-Tal (http://cinetal.com/products/davio_main.asp)? I just got back from IBC where it was set up with an HP DreamCast. It will take a Dual Link HD-SDI and convert it into HDMI 1.3. It also supports hardware 3D LUTS, which means that if you work with a LUT in Scratch you could offload it to this box - that's the theory anyway...

Great discussion!

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The PR on the Davio makes me want to sell my car to get one. Any chance the Davio will be shown in SoCal anytime soon? Perhaps HD Expo? Would love to see one in action.

[Gunleik Groven]

The Davio looks fantastic...

[bgervais]

I have the dreamcolour with the HP probe (actually an eye-one 2) re-badged as HP.

First things first - if you dive deep into the HP manual - you will see that the colourspace emulation functions only work on the HDMI, Displayport, and DVI inputs. BUT that is only if those inputs are fed an RGB signal. If your hardware is passing YCbCr, then no colourspace emulation can be performed. (HDMI and Displayport both support either RGB or YCbCr [sometimes erroneously called YUV])

This means that to have it be properly calibrated, you need to convert your HD-sdi signal to RGB via a hd-link or other device (and with an 8-bit conversion, you'll loose some fidelity, making a 10-bit link in this case more desirable)

The key to the HP display calibrator is not actually the probe (as stated above - it is an eye-one), it is the software that stores the conversion in the monitor's LUT, as opposed to generating an ICM profile that lives in the video-card's LUT (what most pc calibration software does) This can obviously only be done with software customized for the monitor.

Before calibration the monitor seemed neutral, but after it seems _very_ neutral. (a testament to the work that has gone into making that cheap piece of hardware accurate when compared with a Minolta spectro-photometer)

Just a side note about what Janne posted earlier:

Hey guys.

- 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 = 20 bit
- 8 bit RGB = 24 bit
- 10 bit RGB = 30 bit

10 bit SDI usually have YCbCr encoding, and uses only 2x10 bit channels, 10 bit for luma and 10bit for chroma. So 3x8 RGB bit is more.


This is dangerous territory to get into guys. Colour resolution is not= to Luma resolution, which is what you're adding up in the above 'equation' You cannot compare 10-bit YCbCr to 8-bit RGB in terms of added bits. It is very hard to distinguish all three (4 if you also add 4:4:4 YCbCr) formats under even good viewing conditions with a properly adjusted monitor of any type. Where the value of 10-bit information lies is: 1 - rendering wide-gamut imagery (avoidance of banding), and 2 - for our use in post production/DI in pulling out and amplifying subtle detail.

When we see 4:2:2 imagery on a 10-bit or 8-bit display for example - we are still seeing 30-bits or 24 bits total. In case it is not clear above, a 4:2:2 10-bit signal transmits 10 bits for luma in pixel 1, 10, for Cb, and 10 for Cr, then for pixel 2 only transmits the 10 luma bits - Every other pixel simply has the same chroma information as the one to its left. but it may still have a different luma component. So we are introducing some inaccuracy, but to the human eye, it is virtually invisible (in fact the reason behind chroma sub-sampling is that the eye is much more sensitive to changes in luminance than chrominance [thus 10bits of luma is not the same as 10 bits of chroma]). Likewise with 8-bit versus 10-bit imagery, the main differrence lies in colour precision, not necessarily colour accuracy.

Cheers,
--
Ben Gervais
Digital Imaging Engineer / Freelance, Toronto
c 416-951-1980
h 416-789-9778
bengervais@gmail.com

[shannyla]

Doh! I double checked, and the unit displays brightness as cd/m2. So in eyeballing it, the screen is at about 44 fl (150 cd/m2). Per SMPTE I'd need to be 99 cd/m2, which still feels too dark. Sorry for the confusion!

Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA

Well, to offer some context, I calibrate all the broadcast and viewing monitors in our faciltyto 27 ft/l using a mighty spendy Photo Research spectrophotometer and I can tell you that that is plenty bright for accurate viewing. It does take a bit of getting used to if you aren't accustomed to being around broadcast monitors and it can look a little dull. In my opinion, that's because most computer monitors and domestic tvs are ridiculously bright and people get used to it

[Peter Moretti]

...
First things first - if you dive deep into the HP manual - you will see that the colourspace emulation functions only work on the HDMI, Displayport, and DVI inputs. BUT that is only if those inputs are fed an RGB signal. If your hardware is passing YCbCr, then no colourspace emulation can be performed. (HDMI and Displayport both support either RGB or YCbCr [sometimes erroneously called YUV])

This means that to have it be properly calibrated, you need to convert your HD-sdi signal to RGB via a hd-link or other device (and with an 8-bit conversion, you'll loose some fidelity, making a 10-bit link in this case more desirable)...

I'm sure you've thought of this, but why not just send the DVI signal to the monitor?

[bgervais]

Obviously that's what you'd do if you are feeding the monitor from your PC. I was speaking to the trouble Andrew(Hyperfocal) reported with a blu-ray player, or for those thinking of feeding HD-sdi to the HDMI port via a converter box of some sort.

The blu-ray player is probably sending YCbCr, and a HD-sdi signal that is YCbCr and just media converted (rather than colour-format converted) will not be accurate on the Dreamcolour. - as an example, the Blackmagic mini-converter that converts HD-sdi to HDMI is 10-bit, BUT it just media-converts - so you have HD-sdi YCbCr in -> HDMI YCbCr out. So the monitor won't scale that to 709 or DCI or whatever since it isn't RGB.

I imagine that the monitor's internal DSP can't do the heavy-lifting of both colourspace and colourformat conversion, and that's why we have this limitation. Of course, HP could always surprise with a new firmware release, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Cheers,
Ben Gervais
Digital Imaging Engineer / Freelance, Toronto
c 416-951-1980
h 416-789-9778
bengervais@gmail.com

[Benjamin Rowland]

Price dropped $1000 on this monitor.

See this thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19193

[HIGL]

I bought one of these recently.... it looks great and is literally perfect for CC'ing broadcast stuff... BUT... does anybody know how to get the calibration software to work with a mac (only ships with a pc version), or do you have to hand calibrate everything through the menu on the monitor if you're not on a pc? Also, there seems to be a lot of back and forth about what port to use... I've got an ATI card and I'm running this currently through dual-link DVI, which according to this link:

http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html

means I should be getting full 10 bit color, right? Or am I missing something? Not only that, but running it through DVI also means that you can use all the color space profiles that ship with it, as opposed to HDMI where these options are not available for whatever reason... it would seem that Dual-link DVI out to this monitor should solve every problem, right? Please tell me if I am overlooking something. It also means you can do all your redcine renders through this monitor, which has been awesome and a huge help in processing. This is the only affordable monitor I've seen that allows you to use Redcine and actually know what the hell you're getting on a first light.

Finally... has anyone tested the out of the box profiles that come with this monitor? The Rec-709 seems strangely off and I can't figure out why... I'm also extremely curious about how accurate the DCI-P3 profile is? It would make my life hugely easier if it was close enough to be usable. If it isn't accurate, and someone knows how to make it accurate, I'd be eternally grateful if you'd post how. I know these are a lot of questions... but this monitor has a lot of potential, and I want to make sure I'm taking advantage of all of it. Thanks.

[Jason Ing]

Is it good for film too?

[bgervais]

HIGL:

read ALL of this thread for explanations, but this monitor does not support 10-bit via DVI (HP Specs), and I can virtually guarantee that you video card isn't sending 10-bit anyways (no OS's currently support 10-bit display in GUI mode - you have to have an application that supports putting the card into a full-screen 10-bit mode that has no interaction with the OS - and I know of no applications that yet do this. See earlier posts in the thread for the reason that 10-bit display probably doesn't matter for you.

This monitor does support 10-bit via HDMI with colourspace emulation, but for RGB info only.

It is not currently possible to 'hand-calibrate' this monitor (whatever that means) HP has stated that mac software is coming, but until then, you'll have to hook your monitor to a PC, load the calibration software / attach the probe, and calibrate, then move the monitor back to your mac. Even with the price drop - it's still an expensive monitor - so buy the $300 calibration kit - don't be cheap - if you want accurate colours there is no shortcut method or 'hand-calibration' method that will work as well or as quickly.

Calibration will make your 709 profile accurate - but out of the box it should be close.

This monitor will never be accurate for DCI-P3, since it's primaries (red and green anyway) are not as saturated as DCI primaries. This means that the monitor will scale DCI-P3 space to fit it's gamut, and may produce a nice picture, but it can never match DCI-P3 except with one of the current projectors. But, as noted with the sony BVM-L series, it will be 'close'.

Cheers,
--
Ben Gervais
Digital Imaging Engineer / Freelance, Toronto
c 416-951-1980
h 416-789-9778
bengervais@gmail.com

[Gabriele Turchi]

sory guys

so have discovered if the Blackmagic HD Link Pro does provide 10 over the HDMI?

PS:But the HP does accept 10 over the HDMI?Or just over display port?

Thanks

G

[Gunleik Groven]

According to a BM rep @ IBC, the HDMI is still 1.2, thus 8 bits...

[Steven D.]

Would something like this work?

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=4211

I know its a scaler, but if you set all defaults to zero is this something that would pass through an untouched signal?

[Jean Déraps]

Re: DCI-P3 primaries, i read this:

Significantly, it can handle 97 percent of the DCI-P3 specification, which means you could use this monitor to edit video destined for a digital cinema theater. I spoke with one of the animators at DreamWorks Animation, who said that 97 percent was sufficient for their work (if necessary, you could run the video on a DCI-P3 compliant projector to check that last three percent).
taken from:
Studiodaily (http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/reviews/f/rother/9633.html)
Any comments concerning this?

I'm considering making a go of the MOTU V4HD with this monitor...what do you all think?

[John Tissavary]

All I have to say is I saw this monitor recently, and even with 8 bit input it is fantastic.

I didn't look at the P3 mode, and had no appropriate images to feed the monitor, but in 8bit Rec709 and sRGB it was truly phenomenal.


regards,

John T.

[hyperfocal]

OK, after a lot of digging I found the Mac drivers for this monitor, to be used with the HP probe (the eyeOne display2 does NOT work).

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1144&Action=Support&SoftwareID=833

It is frustrating that this was nowhere to be found on either HP or X-rite's sites; you can't actually find it! And don't even bother with HP technical support -- they told me this product didn't exist. I think I googled some search terms like "help me find this *&% app already" and on page 1000 I found the link.

I'm using the DreamColor with an HDLink box, which is being fed the single channel HD-SDI out of a Kona LHe. You calibrate with direct DVI connection to the computer (make sure the probe is connected to the USB on the monitor), and it holds that calibration when you unplug the Mac and plug in an HDLink. I did find the white point point a little red (anybody else?), so pulled back on the red gain a little of the 1D LUT in the HDLink.

Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA
www.andrewdp.com

[Curran Giddens]

Andrew, thanks for posting!

Thought I was going to have to bootcamp into Windows XP to use my HP probe.

[Dave Blackham]

Has one one tried the AJA or black magic SDI/HDSDI to HDMI convertor in to the Dreamcolor monitor or think this is a viable solution for critical monitoring. Presently I have AJA Kona which does not have HDMI native.

thanks,

Dave
UK

[hyperfocal]

Has one one tried the AJA or black magic SDI/HDSDI to HDMI convertor in to the Dreamcolor monitor or think this is a viable solution for critical monitoring. Presently I have AJA Kona which does not have HDMI native.

thanks,

Dave
UK

I'm using the HDLink but going to DVI. _I think_ the HDMI sends a 4:2:2 signal because the LUT options on the DreamColor were disabled, so DVI is really the way to go.

I priced out a Davio to get 4:4:4 dual link HDSDI to HDMI 4:4:4, and it starts around $4K + software. At that point, you might be better off with a different monitor.

Andrew Huebscher
Los Angeles, CA

[hyperfocal]

Has one one tried the AJA or black magic SDI/HDSDI to HDMI convertor in to the Dreamcolor monitor or think this is a viable solution for critical monitoring. Presently I have AJA Kona which does not have HDMI native.

thanks,

Dave
UK

[/I]

I fumbled around with trying to get Boot Camp working on my Mac Pro, and learned the hard way that it would not work with my graphics card (ATI X1900), and I'm stuck with that card to make Apple Color run well.

Andrew

[Gabriele Turchi]

Hyperfocal:

Is the Dreamcolor calibration automatic like the Eizo?
I mean you connect the monitor using usb cable , you choose the seetings (like gamma white pont cd/m2 ) and after that it's all automatic?

Thanks

G

[hyperfocal]

Hyperfocal:

Is the Dreamcolor calibration automatic like the Eizo?
I mean you connect the monitor using usb cable , you choose the seetings (like gamma white pont cd/m2 ) and after that it's all automatic?

Thanks

G

Sort of. With the HP, it stores the calibration information on the monitor, and it will hold it even if you are using something like an HDLink box (vs. a computer). I think the Eizo may have something to this effect, though there was not a REC-709 setting so I couldn't say for certain.

Andrew

[Gabriele Turchi]

The Eizo hold the calibration too...But actually in the settings or in the profile process there is never mention of the Gamut...So i guess is full gamut all time?Or the gamut is in relationship of brightness cd/mq ?

The profile procedure is automatic?I mean you choose the settings and than it automatically change brightness etc...?

Thanks

G