Should I make the jump to RED?...

[Dave Draper]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking of making the jump to RED, but am still a little uncertain.

I currently own a Sony PMW-EX1 and Letus Extreme 35mm adapter, but was more recently looking to upgrade to the Sony PMW-EX3 and Letus Ultimate + Relay Lens (when they come out), equalling approximately £10,500 ($21,000). But what I can't help but think is, would my money be better spent on a RED One setup?

I also own a selection of F-Mount Zeiss lenses, an XLR shotgun mic, an 8" Panasonic LCD monitor, and a fully functional Zacuto rig, all of which I have been told will be compatible with the RED One... So currently speaking, making the jump to RED seems like the saner option, but I'd like your opinions.

Thanks,

M101.

[Cal Brunker]

Dude! Look at the footage section! Nothing compares to RED, it's unbelievable!

The only down side is that you're probably realistically at 30 grand USD to get started, and 6 months wait to get your camera.

Stick with your current camera and place your rez today. (I'm assuming you're a film maker, and not an ENG shooter) From my RED experience, it certainly wouldn't be my ENG camera of choice, but for film making, it's insane.

Cal

[Dave Draper]

Dude! Look at the footage section! Nothing compares to RED, it's unbelievable!

It's the milk-girls, man... They're tempting me to cross the river...


The only down side is that you're probably realistically at 30 grand USD to get started, and 6 months wait to get your camera.

I'm not *too* bothered about the wait time, but when considering all the accessories you need to purchase in order to end up with a *practical* setup, it does get a little daunting. For instance, how much footage would you be able to squeeze on to ONE 8GB CF card at 2K compressed? That's if you even *can* shoot at 2K compressed in-camera... ?

I'm presuming for any *serious* shooting, you might as well toss the CF cards out of the window and buy a RED DRIVE...


I'm assuming you're a film maker, and not an ENG shooter.

Yup, not primarily an ENG shooter. I shoot shorts, music videos, weddings, that sort of thing...

M101.

[Noah Kadner]

CF cards are fine- very comparable to 35mm film loads unless you are doing major longform takes like half hours for a documentary. But yeah $30K is really just the tip of the iceberg, that's with the bare minimums and the RED optics. There are much better lenses out there that can easily triple the cost and more.

So coming from the EX1 Letus world you need to be prepared for the financial aspect. If you're independently wealthy or have a setup with a rental house or have daily jobs shooting high end commercials this is no problem. But for a freelancer this is like a down payment on a house, not to mention you're going to wait a long time just to get it. That said, yeah it's pretty dope.

Noah

[Brent J. Craig]

Should you make the jump?

Yes.

[Jon Schellenger]

Cross the river man.. do it.. Don't buy anymore sony stuff. Join us. I will never go back myself.

[Dave Draper]

CF cards are fine- very comparable to 35mm film loads unless you are doing major longform takes like half hours for a documentary.

Makes sense. The CF cards are definitely the more financially attractive of the Digital Storage options, too... Any word on a 32GB or 64GB CF card? :biggrin:


But yeah $30K is really just the tip of the iceberg, that's with the bare minimums and the RED optics. There are much better lenses out there that can easily triple the cost and more.

I was actually planning on sticking with my Zeiss / Canon 35mm stills lenses for now, to keep the cost down, and renting PL glass when required.


Cross the river man.. do it.. Don't buy anymore sony stuff. Join us. I will never go back myself.

Something tells me this board is a little biased... :tongue:

M101.

[Harky Jewett]

For weddings, it may not be the best camera, but for music videos and shorts a whole new world will open up for you. And, as has been said, be prepared to spend more than you think (but honestly, I think that's the case when you're getting any pro set up).

In any case, DON'T DELAY! Make the reservation this second. There's no downside (besides the deposit which is fully refundable). Get your place in line, then continue to do research on it.

[Bruce Allen]

M101, how on earth do you get $21,000 for EX3 + Letus Ultimate?

EX3 is only $8320:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/563219-REG/Sony_PMW_EX3_PMW_EX3_XDCAM_EX_HD.html

Letus Ultimate is $4500 but personally I wouldn't spend $4500 on a 35mm adapter. I'd rather put that towards a Red.

But EX3 + Letus Extreme (for low light loss) or SGPro (for bokeh & sharpness) is only $9500 or so.

That is in a genuinely different niche to either Red One or Scarlet and is worth considering.

Red package begins at $17500. Plus you need an external mixer because sound doesn't work, you need a bigger tripod, batteries, more pelican cases, etc.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Harky Jewett]

M101, how on earth do you get $21,000 for EX3 + Letus Ultimate?[/url]


This may explain it:

http://www.videokit.co.uk/cgi-bin/store1/commerce.cgi?product=PRO_CAMCORDERS!SONY&pid=2389.htmd=2104.htm

At 7,000 GBP that's close to $14,000. The dollar's not the strongest at the moment.

[Prem Edpuganti]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking of making the jump to RED, but am still a little uncertain.

I currently own a Sony PMW-EX1 and Letus Extreme 35mm adapter, but was more recently looking to upgrade to the Sony PMW-EX3 and Letus Ultimate + Relay Lens (when they come out), equalling approximately £10,500 ($21,000). But what I can't help but think is, would my money be better spent on a RED One setup?

M101.


Until couple of days ago, I went through the same exercise, PMW-EX1 vs. Red One. By the time I add all the junk to PMW-Ex1 to make it worthwhile, I would have spent the kind of money you are talking about, but would still have ended up with only half ass job. I don't think it is the camera for big screen application.

I am thinking of following Red configuration for my in-door studio set up:

Red Body $17,500.00
A/C adapter (To be used with an inverter from a car battery) $135.00
Basic Production Pack $1,250.00
Red Drive+Cable $ 1,100
24" Westinghouse Monitor (Model:L2419NM, menus also work per Red users) $300.00
Nikon/Birger Mount $1,500
Some Nikon or Canon FD Lenses $5,000 (estimate)

Above adds up to $26,785.00. Plan is to stay well under $30,000.

I will be shooting in remote locations outside of United States where I cannot rent anything. Besides, it will be a feature for local audience, with no world wide exposure. So, have to keep the budget low.

Hello guys, anything wrong with the above set up. Wait a minute, Can't order Red Drive. Can't even place a deposit. hmm.........

[Lenny Manfred]

apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges. don't compare price, compare function. the ex-1 (or 3) are toys, that make good pictures, but they are toys. the RED is a professional camera. in the long run the RED will always be more complicated to work with, and more expensive, every accessory for it will cost more, the post is more complicated, and if you ever get real lenses they are a lot more expensive too (photo lenses can only take you so far).

but the rewards will be much greater. the quality will be exponentially better, and it will take a lot longer to outgrow. if this movie has a small budget and you choose to go cheap, when the next movie happens, and it has a little better budget, you will have to buy everything again, but higher quality. if you buy RED now (or something comparable) for the next film all you have to buy is more accessories.

that's just my opinion.

[Harva Raj]

one of the best footages i've seen from RED One is a music video shot with LOMO Anamorphic Lens.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15129


But if anyone can proof that a footage from EX3 + LOMO Anamorphic Lens is in the same boat as RED One's footage, then you don't have to jump. seriously, someone must do this test.

[Dave Draper]

M101, how on earth do you get $21,000 for EX3 + Letus Ultimate?

Sony PMW-EX3 = £6,000 ($12,000 approx)
Letus Relay Lens = $4,500 (£2,250, approx)
Letus Ultimate = $4,500 (£2,250, approx)

TOTAL: £10,500 = $21,000 (approx)


By the time I add all the junk to PMW-Ex1 to make it worthwhile, I would have spent the kind of money you are talking about, but would still have ended up with only half ass job. I don't think it is the camera for big screen application.

Exactly my thoughts.

M101.

[Hans von Sonntag]

You can use the Sony camera without a 35mm adaptor and shoot docs with it which is its perfect niche. You cannot do that with Red. It's a heavy mother and pretty akward for handheld. Also you need a S16 zoom for docs.

Making Red suitable for different applications is costly. A fully pimped Red with all the nice stuff one wants reaches easely 75 - 80 K. I guess that many started with a budget of say 25k and ended up double the amount. As often said Red is a pro camera which needs for professional use all the 35mm gear that's nice and expensive. If you are prepared - switch. Highly recommended....

Hans

[Dave Draper]

OK, I've put together and priced up a RED One package that I'm *hoping* is all I'd need to get started (alongside the parts mentioned in my first post, that is).

Is there anything I've missed out?...

RED ONE (BODY ONLY) - $17,500.00
RED POWER PACK - $1,450.00
RED FLASH (CF) MODULE - $500.00
COMPACT FLASH 8GB (x4) - $796.00
NIKON MOUNT - $500.00
RED CRADLE - $750.00
ZACUTO DOUBLEMOUNT - $235.00

The above setup would cost me $21,731 (which is approximately £10,935), and is only around £400 more expensive than an EX3, Letus Ultimate and Letus Relay Lens. Kind of a no-brainer, really...

By the way, does anyone know if the Panasonic BT-LH80WE LCD monitor would work with the RED One? I ask because I own one, and would prefer if I don't have to fork out for another LCD.

M101.

[mikeburton]

OK, I've put together and priced up a RED One package that I'm *hoping* is all I'd need to get started (alongside the parts mentioned in my first post, that is).

Is there anything I've missed out?...

RED ONE (BODY ONLY) - $17,500.00
RED POWER PACK - $1,450.00
RED FLASH (CF) MODULE - $500.00
COMPACT FLASH 8GB (x4) - $796.00
NIKON MOUNT - $500.00
RED CRADLE - $750.00
ZACUTO DOUBLEMOUNT - $235.00

The above setup would cost me $21,731 (which is approximately £10,935), and is only around £400 more expensive than an EX3, Letus Ultimate and Letus Relay Lens. Kind of a no-brainer, really...

By the way, does anyone know if the Panasonic BT-LH80WE LCD monitor would work with the RED One? I ask because I own one, and would prefer if I don't have to fork out for another LCD.

M101.

I think with this setup you are going to find out the hard way on set how quickly only 2 RED Batteries go. You don't want to be waiting around while you have everyone ready to go. What about rails, Mattebox, mounts, base plates, etc. I'm sure you could rent the rest for a production if you need to at first but i would recommend thinking about this kit and asking yourself if your better off just renting instead of purchasing gear at all.
Don't get me wrong, my package is fairly minimal myself but by minimal I'm in about $33,000.00 for camera, accessories and about $7,000.00 in glass and I still need more gear to fully outfit this rig the way i personally want it.
Not trying to discourage you in any way, its just a lot of money that is never ending when it comes to ever evolving technology. If you choose to accept the challenge, welcome :)

[Dave Draper]

I think with this setup you are going to find out the hard way on set how quickly only 2 RED Batteries go. You don't want to be waiting around while you have everyone ready to go.

How long does one RED BRICK last on average? Guess it totally depends on what you're doing...


What about rails, Mattebox, mounts, base plates, etc.

My Zacuto rig is pretty much "RED Ready" for both shoulder-mounted and 'podded work... The one additional part I'd definitely need to purchase would be the Zacuto Doublemount, which I'll need in order to attach the RED CRADLE.


Not trying to discourage you in any way, its just a lot of money that is never ending when it comes to ever evolving technology. If you choose to accept the challenge, welcome :)

Understood. :) I just want to begin at a good starting point, and work my way up from there.

M101.

[Andrew Martin]

OK, I've put together and priced up a RED One package that I'm *hoping* is all I'd need to get started (alongside the parts mentioned in my first post, that is).

Is there anything I've missed out?...

RED ONE (BODY ONLY) - $17,500.00
RED POWER PACK - $1,450.00
RED FLASH (CF) MODULE - $500.00
COMPACT FLASH 8GB (x4) - $796.00
NIKON MOUNT - $500.00
RED CRADLE - $750.00
ZACUTO DOUBLEMOUNT - $235.00

The above setup would cost me $21,731 (which is approximately £10,935), and is only around £400 more expensive than an EX3, Letus Ultimate and Letus Relay Lens. Kind of a no-brainer, really...

By the way, does anyone know if the Panasonic BT-LH80WE LCD monitor would work with the RED One? I ask because I own one, and would prefer if I don't have to fork out for another LCD.

M101.


Hey Model 101.

Dont forget VAT and import duty, that can add 2-3 grand instantly.

I went through this decision a couple of months back. We rented a Red for a short and the image blew us all away. I took the plunge and ordered, best thing we ever did. My order is $25000 about £15800 (exchange rate depending) if you calculate VAT and import duty and includes no glass.

Just waiting for it now (i have canceled all of my productions for this year to do them on Red next year -- just writing them now actually)

Andrew.

[Joel Kaye]

OK, I've put together and priced up a RED One package that I'm *hoping* is all I'd need to get started (alongside the parts mentioned in my first post, that is).


Do a side by side test FIRST if at all possible. The EX1 is a much better camera than a lot of people seem to give it credit for. Very good in low light, great resolution and fast workflow. The big question is how much of a light and resolution hit is that Letus. And is it unstable in any way?

[Cal Brunker]

Re: This board being extremely biased, most of us were hopeful believers, but ultimately skeptics, waiting to see if this camera could possibly be real. Then, at some point or another, all of us have had a chance to shoot on a RED (borrowed, rented etc.) and at that point we lost our minds.

It's important to remember that most of us weren't fan boys until we actually drank the kool-aid.

RED provides us, who would love to shoot 35mm on every project, the ability to get the kind of images we want, without breaking the bank. It allows us to put our work up beside that of our heroes and say "nope, I'm still not good enough, but I can't blame the image anymore".

I made a short recently on the HDX-900 with Cinestyle HD lenses etc, then shot the intro on the RED (it's all closeup stuff shot in a different style, so the difference in cameras was worth the chance to shoot on the RED) I can honestly say, I was floored. It made the HDX900 look like a toy, if you're trying to approximate the look of film. looked amazing, felt amazing, and color corrected like a champ.

Ok enough fanboyism. I wouldn't consider buying any other camera if you're looking at 20grand+, and you want to make dramatic shorts/music vids/features.

Cal

[Dave Draper]

Hey Model 101.

Dont forget VAT and import duty, that can add 2-3 grand instantly.

Yeah, this is the one thing that concerns me...


The EX1 is a much better camera than a lot of people seem to give it credit for. Very good in low light, great resolution and fast workflow.

The EX1 is a fantastic camera, but I have three major problems with it... Its sensor size, lack of removable lenses (hence why originally considering to upgrade to an EX3), and only having a 4:2:0 colour space. Having said that, I will be very sad to see it go if and when I sell it to help raise the cash towards a RED One.


The big question is how much of a light and resolution hit is that Letus. And is it unstable in any way?

The Letus Extreme only loses a little light - Around 0.5 stops, I believe... And it's as sharp as a sharp thing. I'd even go so far as to say that it's the best 35mm adapter currently on the market!

However, because it's an *adapter*, it does have a few flaws...

1) You always have to make sure you're focused on the ground-glass, as it's quite easy to knock it off - Something I really *don't* like having to worry about all the time.
2) You can only stop down to around f/5.6 before the grain from the ground-glass becomes very apparent.
3) You can't use fast shutter speeds, or else the grain from the ground-glass makes an appearance again.
4) It's a hassle to set up every time you want to use it.

But I'd like to make it clear, that as far as 35mm *adapters* go, no one else comes close. I'd just personally prefer to use *one* unit that does everything I need it to.

Back to the RED One...

I asked this question in an earlier post, so I'm not sure if anyone knows the answer to it, but will the Panasonic BT-LH80WE LCD monitor work with the RED One?

M101.