23.976 or 24 fps??

[Jay A. Kelley]

So I've been shooting with RED for some time now, and to keep things simple I have been shooting as I always have, at 23.976 for broadcast HD.

But... Is that what I really need? 24fps is a "cleaner" format in terms of time code and other things. Also 90% of my final output is to WEB or DVD or Blu-Ray DVD. All of these items play 24fps, correct?

And finally if I do get a project that need's 23.976 I would guess it should not be a big deal to re-render with a pull down.

I woulld be grateful for comments and/or suggestions.

Jay

[Stuart English]

Shoot 23.98... true 24.00 is for special occasions. DVD etc works in the same "TV" environment as anything else, hence its really a 23.98 / 29.97 device, not 24 / 30. As for the web - it doesn't care...

There is no time code issue with 23.98, just stay away from Drop Frame - use NDF (Non Drop Frame) which is the default for the RED-ONE



Europe - ignore the above, you are fine with 25 fps ...

[Shawn Booth]

Would you define special occasions Stuart?

[Paul Hazlett]

Would you define special occasions Stuart?

weddings bar mitzvahs, that kind of thing...gotta shoot in 24...

[Eric.T]

especialy bar mitzvahs... i heard from a guy who got in trouble shooting with 23.976fps... he got kicked out of the event ;)

[Andrew M.]

He got kicked out because he had too much whisky.
Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps.
I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.
For broadcast you have to be careful.

I use exclusivly 24p

[Lewis-M Soucy]

weddings bar mitzvahs, that kind of thing...gotta shoot in 24...

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Like Stuart said, in Europe (and all PAL countries!), for TV, DVD, Web, etc... Your perfect at 25fps... For features meant to straight direct return to film for theatrical release, 24fps is even better... No downpulling, etc...

[Michael Stanmore]

I shoot everything at 16fps coz I like that old film look with Babe Ruth flying round the bases.

:o

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I didn't check that! Can you do that with Red, choose your frame rate? Like "Saving Private Ryan" war style?... That could be fun! :watsup:

[jason.lee.wong]

the saving private ryan thing was actually changin the shutter ...

[Lewis-M Soucy]

I knew there was something like a shutter angle of like 240° or 270... But they also shot at lower speed, something around 18 or 16fps to get more footage out of their small mags (which you don't want to change too often under fire I guess)...

[Michael Stanmore]

Really? Cool... didn't realise that.

[Stuart English]

He got kicked out because he had too much whisky.
Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps.
I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.
For broadcast you have to be careful.

I use exclusivly 24p

You shoot 24.00 rather than 23.98? Interesting.

Cause' HDTV is NOT 24 fps nor 30 fps nor 60 fps its 1000/1001 of that i.e 23.98, 29.97, 59.94 - same is true for DVD.

The right post house will process 24.00 footage, but for many they can't get their heads around that and sound at 29.97, so prefer you shoot 23.98 fps.

[Ernesto Lomeli]

saving private Ryan was shot with out of phase cameras at times.
Lots of info out there on the subject.


Now I'm a little dissapointed in the lack of I formation on the fame rate question, this is extreemly important to all of us.

And by the jokes I do suspect few know the true answer.
From what I know almost every project I have worked on we
went to 23.98 because audio pull down work much easier.

That has been the sole reason and I would LOVE as much information on the subject also.


Ernesto lomeli
typed on iPhone

[Lewis-M Soucy]

The right post house will process 24.00 footage, but for many they can't get their heads around that and sound at 29.97, so prefer you shoot 23.98 fps.

I think Stuart answered that pretty clearly. Sorry we got around the subject. 23.98 fps sounds like a pretty good frame rate for you in the US...

[Manuel Wenger]

True 24fps is something to consider if you do a filmout, otherwise stick with 23,98 or 29,97 in NTSC Land. This was a big issue back with the Varicam as well where you could change the System Frequency between 59,94 and and 60Hz.

[Jeremy Newmark]

Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps. I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, I truly believe that this is incorrect. There is a lot of mis-information out there about this, mostly due to the fact that 23.976p is often referred to as 24p. This was a big industry wide mistake that was adapted early on and has caused a lot of confusion and headaches for people. The main reason to shoot True 24p is if you are shooting for a film out, because this is the native frame-rate of film. If your material is desitned for television, dvd or bluray, then 23.976 is the way to go, because true 24p will only cause major problems down the road. Movies that are shot on film at 24fps are tele-cined at 23.976 for dvd, bluray and television distribution. When shot at 23.976 all it takes is a simple pull-down to get to 29.97 for NTSC delivery, which is the US standard. If you shoot true 24p, you will have to go through complex frame-rate conversions to get your material to look good for dvd and television distribution. There are only a few systems out there that do this well, like a Teranex for example, and time on these is not cheap.

To state that almost all HDTV no in production is shot in true 24p is simply incorrect, it is 23.976p being referred to as 24p. Now 25p is a different story. If your material is destined for PAL land, then 25p is the correct frame rate because PAL is 25fps. This is why many European films will shoot 25fps even when shooting film, because there is no need for a pull-down or frame-rate conversion for them to deliver to television in PAL.

If your material is destined for both NTSC and PAL formats, well this is where things get even more complex. The easiest and standard way there is to still shoot 23.976p. This can easily go to NTSC and PAL formats. How it goes to PAL is a more complex story, which I'd rather not get into now, but if any of you are interested just say so and I'll get into it. I hope this helps to clear up some misconception about 23.976 and 24.

[Shirley Films]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, I truly believe that this is incorrect. There is a lot of mis-information out there about this, mostly due to the fact that 23.976p is often referred to as 24p. This was a big industry wide mistake that was adapted early on and has caused a lot of confusion and headaches for people. The main reason to shoot True 24p is if you are shooting for a film out, because this is the native frame-rate of film. If your material is desitned for television, dvd or bluray, then 23.976 is the way to go, because true 24p will only cause major problems down the road. Movies that are shot on film at 24fps are tele-cined at 23.976 for dvd, bluray and television distribution. When shot at 23.976 all it takes is a simple pull-down to get to 29.97 for NTSC delivery, which is the US standard. If you shoot true 24p, you will have to go through complex frame-rate conversions to get your material to look good for dvd and television distribution. There are only a few systems out there that do this well, like a Teranex for example, and time on these is not cheap.

To state that almost all HDTV no in production is shot in true 24p is simply incorrect, it is 23.976p being referred to as 24p. Now 25p is a different story. If your material is destined for PAL land, then 25p is the correct frame rate because PAL is 25fps. This is why many European films will shoot 25fps even when shooting film, because there is no need for a pull-down or frame-rate conversion for them to deliver to television in PAL.

If your material is destined for both NTSC and PAL formats, well this is where things get even more complex. The easiest and standard way there is to still shoot 23.976p. This can easily go to NTSC and PAL formats. How it goes to PAL is a more complex story, which I'd rather not get into now, but if any of you are interested just say so and I'll get into it. I hope this helps to clear up some misconception about 23.976 and 24.

Thanks for the insight - it's much appreciated. I have one question, however...

What are the potential drawbacks if you shoot a feature at 23.976p... but later on end up needing to make a film print (24)? What should one expect in that situation? What will happen to the quality in the conversion? And how much more difficult/expensive will it be to even make that conversion?

Best,
SF

[Andrew M.]

Maybe it is correct that all 24p specs actually do reffer to the 23.97

The best way to check will be to check on the specs of the IC they are using for HDMI INPUT.

Will 23.97 HDMI input take 24p without problem?

Premiere and Encore has the choice for 24p and 23.97 so I think there is a difference in this and I always pick 24p for BluRay mastering and no complains so far.

From Sony specs:
XBR5 series features: Full HD 1080p, Motionflow™ 120Hz, BRAVIA Engine™ PRO, 10-bit display panel and processing, x.v.Color™ capability, Deep Color (HDMI v1.3 option), 1080p, 1080/24p input capable

[Gary Stone]

what if you're not sure whether you're going film out or not? as in, if your film "might" get theatrical distribution? should you shoot 24fps or 23.976? can you get 24 true progressive frames per second out to film from 23.976 if you have to? at full quality?

thanks!

[Prem Edpuganti]

If your material is desitned for television, dvd or bluray, then 23.976 is the way to go, because true 24p will only cause major problems down the road. Movies that are shot on film at 24fps are tele-cined at 23.976 for dvd, bluray and television distribution. When shot at 23.976 all it takes is a simple pull-down to get to 29.97 for NTSC delivery, which is the US standard. If you shoot true 24p, you will have to go through complex frame-rate conversions to get your material to look good for dvd and television distribution. There are only a few systems out there that do this well, like a Teranex for example, and time on these is not cheap.

Well, my head is spinning. Do I have to make the choice before the shoot, filmout or not. Pretty hard thing to decide. Like to keep the options open.

[Brandon Fraley]

the point is it's easier to shoot and edit and screen 29.98 immediately and then pay for the conversion to 24 with all the other expenses when you're doing your film out, than to shoot 24 and right of the bat have to do a conversion to properly work with the footage and screen it NTSC.

23.98 is the logical choice is you ask me

[M Most]

what if you're not sure whether you're going film out or not? as in, if your film "might" get theatrical distribution? should you shoot 24fps or 23.976? can you get 24 true progressive frames per second out to film from 23.976 if you have to? at full quality?


This is a non-issue. Regardless of whether you record on video or as data at 23.98 or 24, a frame is a frame. The only difference is in how fast you play those frames. There is no quality difference because there is no difference, period (other than perhaps an imperceptible difference in motion blur).

If you're working in the US, regardless of final distribution format, there is no compelling reason to work at anything other than 23.98 other than to make yourself feel good. It is almost unavoidable that at various times during both production and post, you will need to create and distribute video versions of what you're doing. And it is equally unavoidable that you'll eventually deal with post sound. Due to the vast infrastructure already in place, this is more easily done with 23.98 than with 24. And if you need to make 24, you run it slightly faster - as you do once you've put those frames on film and project them at 24 fps. And if you need to make it 25fps for foreign markets, you run it another 4% faster. Those kinds of conversions are done every day, and since the frames themselves never change - remember, a frame is a frame - quality is not affected at all.

[bobbystone]

Shoot 24 if you're going to the big screen. If you're going to telecine, shoot 23.98

[bobbystone]

Let me add that the only reason this matters is that your playback of your film matches your audio. If you shoot 24, then telecine at 23.98 you're gonig to lose sync, as your film will now be played back .01% slower. You CAN change the speed of the audio in post.

[Troy Smith]

If you're working in the US, regardless of final distribution format, there is no compelling reason to work at anything other than 23.98 other than to make yourself feel good. It is almost unavoidable that at various times during both production and post, you will need to create and distribute video versions of what you're doing. And it is equally unavoidable that you'll eventually deal with post sound. Due to the vast infrastructure already in place, this is more easily done with 23.98 than with 24. And if you need to make 24, you run it slightly faster - as you do once you've put those frames on film and project them at 24 fps. And if you need to make it 25fps for foreign markets, you run it another 4% faster. Those kinds of conversions are done every day, and since the frames themselves never change - remember, a frame is a frame - quality is not affected at all.

Interesting info mmost, I'm wondering how you go about converting the 23.98 footage to 25fps for pal, which programme do you use mmost, to get the 25fps. Or are u talking about hardware converters when you talk about speeding up the footage to get the transfer?

THanks
Stricko

[M Most]

Interesting info mmost, I'm wondering how you go about converting the 23.98 footage to 25fps for pal, which programme do you use mmost, to get the 25fps. Or are u talking about hardware converters when you talk about speeding up the footage to get the transfer?


Neither software nor hardware converters are commonly used professionally. The most common way of producing a 25p master from a 23.98 master is to use an HDCam SR deck (nearly all mastering today is done to HDCam SR). That deck is capable of playing back a 23.98 master at 23.98, 24, and 25 fps directly. That is also how both NTSC and PAL downconversions are usually accomplished, by playing the master at the proper speed and downconverting from 1080 to either 525 or 625 as required without any temporal interpolation (since the frame rate itself does not change), using either the internal downconverter in the deck or an external device (in our case, a Teranex Xantus).

If the material is in the form of a data file - say, a Quicktime file - you can simply conform it to 25fps, accomplishing the same thing.

[M Most]

Let me add that the only reason this matters is that your playback of your film matches your audio. If you shoot 24, then telecine at 23.98 you're gonig to lose sync, as your film will now be played back .01% slower. You CAN change the speed of the audio in post.

That is also not a problem. Production sound is pulled down by a variety of methods, all very fast and all very common.

[M Most]

Shoot 24 if you're going to the big screen. If you're going to telecine, shoot 23.98

The only time you would be going to telecine is if you're shooting film, since telecine is, by definition, a film to tape transfer. In this case, you would not want to shoot at 23.98. You would shoot at 24fps, and record sound with 30 frame time code. Both will be pulled down during the telecine transfer.

If you're talking about shooting with a Red camera (as I thought we were), it really doesn't matter, for the reasons I stated above.

[Harry Clark]

Listen to Mike. Shoot 23.98. For EVERYTHING.
Cheers,
Harry

[Jeremy Newmark]

I have to apologize, I really was trying to make things clearer and not confuse people even more. As Harry said, "Listen to Mike". Mike Most is one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum.

In regards to digital acquisition, which is what we are talking about when shooting with the RedOne, then simply shoot 23.976 for the US market, weather you are going to film or dvd. If you are only going to television broadcast, then the frame-rate (23.976, 29.97, etc.) is an aesthetic decision, as to what type of look you are going for, but in this case, don't shoot true 24p. Another Mike (Bravin) once said to me that he simply wished that digital cameras didn't have the option to shoot true 24p, because it only causes more headaches then it's worth due to the fact that it is frequently mis-used due to lack of knowledge. However, all the high-end digital cameras do give us these options, which is good, but it is our responsibility as the professional user to be properly educated in knowing how to correctly use the tools we choose to work with.

[Jeremy Newmark]

I think I can be even clearer. If you shoot 23.976, you give yourself the most options open to you with an easy path to get there. If you choose to shoot another frame-rate, then you start to limit those options or at least make them more complex.

[Andrew Young]

I concur with Mike. We work in both frame rates all the time and neither is a problem in post. But more people have made costly mistakes using 24p. 23.976 does not require pulldown for video or DVD output so for most users is is actually more 'pure' than 24p. Think about where the most eyeballs will see your work. If is is projected film then shooting 24p would be more 'pure,' otherwise, 23.976 is more practical. And the latter transfered to 24p film is not an issue whatsoever.