The Summer of Flakes

[Rick Darge]

First off, Summer's not over.. but...

I don't like to bitch like this but thought I would..

Anyone else in Los Angeles experiencing what I've been going through these past 4 weeks?

Flaky, full of shit clients? Not all of them... but a select few I've had the pleasure of dealing with this past month..

It seems like every client now has a "best friend" that owns a Red camera who will undercut your ass like a Samurai. Theres no room for negotiation anymore. People want the cheapest of the cheap and they want it cheap.. Who gives a shit about talent and expertise.. Lets just get the camera for pennies and worry later..

Maybe its my mindset... Maybe its the smog... Maybe its the Red camera creeping into every home of every producer in this city.. or maybe its something bigger.. Like this recession we're in...

I'm going to go drop kick a wall..

I'm only complaining because I woke up this morning, having lost 3 potential jobs that were on the verge of closing to "a friend of the directors who owns a Red camera" :spidy:

[Rick Darge]

You know, I just re-read my post..

Please realize that this is obviously my subjective viewpoint.. I'm sure a lot of people are doing fine.. I was doing fine in Los Angeles up until June, then I hit this weird wall.. I can't tell if its me or if everyone is going through it..

Just wanted to clarify since some of my statements seemed like I was blanketing the whole city with this perception of flakiness.

[Shane Kelly]

Richard,
I don't know if you are talking rental or being hired as a dp with your camera but I think that it's inevitable that rental prices drop once 2000 cameras or so hit the marketplace. There will always be someone out there who'll let their camera go for very little rental money if they get the chance to shoot something.
The recession is absolutely playing a part in it, budget's are constantly getting slashed and I see more and more companies getting into trouble. If you have talent you will get hired by the smart producers ( they are out there ).
The early adopters have had a huge advantage in being able to offer for rent a camera that everyone wanted.Those days may be coming to an end, unfortunately.

Shane.

[Rick Darge]

Hey Shane

I should have clarified.. being hired as a DP/DIT has been ok.. RENTALS on the other hand have been a little shaky.. I've seen some people drop their Red camera rates to almost nothing.. Which begs the question, if you're renting out your package for less than 2% of the total value, why did you invest in the camera to begin with?

[Brent J. Craig]

We seem to be in that part of the new gear cycle where every producer needs to be burned at least once by a bargain basement rental.

Give it 6 months until everyone has been screwed over by poorly maintained gear, lack of support, unexplained failures, corrupted footage and unexpected repair bills and they will begin to see the light again.

[number6]

Maybe when Epic comes out. Maybe then the market for that will be less saturated.

[Hans von Sonntag]

We don't have that here in Germany yet. Not enough cameras around. People are curious, test and start slowly shooting real life projects. Nevertheless producers of TV shows and serials tend to stay away from Red and keep shoting S16 or HDCAM. The worklfow is too cumbersome und unfinished and by far not yet integrated in current workflows. This will be accomplished by spring next year.

Then we have 100+ cameras here in rental and prices will go down similar to that what a Sony HDCAM now costs: 600 EUR streetprice with lens and batteries.

We actually had this discussion in various threads months ago and reality bites: the revolution eats up its children.

A Red body is cheap for what it is capable. 25k for a basic kit without lenses will be hard to rent out for more than 300 EUR, at least on this side of the pond. Lens sets, mattboces, FF, monitors, you name it will increase the value of the package considerably and thus higher rental charges.

In the moment there is still more demand than cameras. If you sell your camera now you might still realise a premium. That will be gone when 4000+ cameras are in the market and people start selling their cams. Then Epic is around the corner which is aimed at its pricepoint much more for the rental market. For many producers it will be no question to rent a Epic for a little premium than a privately onwned RedOne unless it's dirt cheap.

IMHO the value of the package is not the body, but the accories, lenses etc. and of course the service. If your business is rental you must upgrade to Epic as soon as possible. People want always the new toys, epecially DOPs.

Hans

[Shane Kelly]

I'd say it will get down to about $600-700 for the body and accessories and stabilize there. Lenses would be extra and will always be in demand.
I still make $300 a day for my HVX so I basing my presumptions on that.
I think the real advantage of this camera is for the DP's who can provide a package deal for production.The role of the DIT or rather media copier will join with the 2nd ac or loader.

Shane.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I had just two short rentals and accessories turn back damaged, LCD scratched and two of RED wingnut broken.

After that I stopped renting.

My latest rental decision is to rent only to a special artistic project with a good concept and idea.

Actually I do have RED camera for my own projects.

BTW Epic or Scarlet are still far away from shipping (need about a year from today) so nobody should be worry about that RED is obsolete.

Also I showed before that the workflow is fast and easy if you use right apps for that.

With B16 you have WYSIWYG and very high real time monitoring, then can get DPX rendered overnight on fast 8 core Intel machine

(in may test Mac Pro or even laptop MacBook Pro) using Scratch if you are shooting feature at 24 fps.

So I don't see today that EPIC is competitive to RED ONE and workflow is fast and easy.

Get set of Arri/Zeiss Master Primes and you can compete with 35mm film.

I see this Summer very exciting with B16 and upcoming IMS and Birger EF mounts on RED.

[Steve Sherrick]

I began writing an article on my blog about a topic very similar to what you are describing Richard, but I stopped writing it because it was starting to go down a road that I didn't want to go down. Like any industry you are going to have the people you love working with and the people that you may not want to be in the same room with. I've always based my business practices on some simple principles - honesty and integrity. It can be very difficult when you work with people who don't practice those same principles. It can discourage you and make you wonder why you even bothered to get into this in the first place. But then you'll have a client come along who is a dream to work with and you forget all about those things that discouraged you.

If you stick to who you are and are in this field for all of the right reasons, then these troublesome business dealings will just be speed bumps. Your passion for what you do will allow you to get over them.

When I was writing the article that day I was in a similar mindset to yours. The past few days I have had some really great conversations about projects and I'm back to having faith in my fellow filmmaking community.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

First off, Summer's not over.. but...

I don't like to bitch like this but thought I would..

Anyone else in Los Angeles experiencing what I've been going through these past 4 weeks?

Flaky, full of shit clients? Not all of them... but a select few I've had the pleasure of dealing with this past month..

It seems like every client now has a "best friend" that owns a Red camera who will undercut your ass like a Samurai. Theres no room for negotiation anymore. People want the cheapest of the cheap and they want it cheap.. Who gives a shit about talent and expertise.. Lets just get the camera for pennies and worry later..

Maybe its my mindset... Maybe its the smog... Maybe its the Red camera creeping into every home of every producer in this city.. or maybe its something bigger.. Like this recession we're in...

I'm going to go drop kick a wall..

I'm only complaining because I woke up this morning, having lost 3 potential jobs that were on the verge of closing to "a friend of the directors who owns a Red camera" :spidy:

maybe scarlet will break red one`s rental backbone?----
the guys who can afford will rent an epic.
the rest will buy a scarlet or will rent one for 200 Dollars a day.

just guessing, the future will tell the truth

---some more guessing/fortune telling
in one year after scarlets release ( i would build a 1500 dollars adaptor for pl lenses if i were red, but i am not, and what do i know?)....the guys who made money will upgrade to red, some will keep it, but a lot will sell the body for exactly 17500 dollars (if red says its ok to trade in a second hand red) and will move to scarlet...
we will see a lot of dirt cheap assecoires in one year.

[Rick Darge]

I began writing an article on my blog about a topic very similar to what you are describing Richard, but I stopped writing it because it was starting to go down a road that I didn't want to go down. Like any industry you are going to have the people you love working with and the people that you may not want to be in the same room with. I've always based my business practices on some simple principles - honesty and integrity. It can be very difficult when you work with people who don't practice those same principles. It can discourage you and make you wonder why you even bothered to get into this in the first place. But then you'll have a client come along who is a dream to work with and you forget all about those things that discouraged you.

If you stick to who you are and are in this field for all of the right reasons, then these troublesome business dealings will just be speed bumps. Your passion for what you do will allow you to get over them.

When I was writing the article that day I was in a similar mindset to yours. The past few days I have had some really great conversations about projects and I'm back to having faith in my fellow filmmaking community.


Thank you Steve. That was a great response. Very true..

[Greg M]

From my experience those clients that pay the least demand the most and those that pay the most demand the least...moral of the story is dont deal with the clients that pay the least. Put a fair price on your service and stick to it...why work twice as hard for 1/2 the money?

[Friedrich Moser]

Digitalfx,

I can only second that. Right now I am suffering exactly this kind of project - it hurts twice as much, if, as in my case, you have to deal with someone you never thought of would behave like this.

Conclusion: no more projects on a regional scale. For my RedOne: no rental. Just my own projects. And the pricing never based on the cam alone: this is digital 35mm and you need skilled personal to do the shooting well. So my budgeting will always be cam+accessories+dp+dit+ac. I will always make a finished trailer first. This allows the clients to judge the quality they get - and to understand the pricing. Pricing always superior to HDCam.

Just my two €-cents.

Fritz

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

From my experience those clients that pay the least demand the most and those that pay the most demand the least...moral of the story is dont deal with the clients that pay the least. Put a fair price on your service and stick to it...why work twice as hard for 1/2 the money?
SO true.

Just had a recent client that was going to rent, then went with someone else who undercut my rate (and I'd already given them a 50% reduction as a student project)...then came back when that camera stopped working in the middle of the first day's shoot.

[I Bloom]

Greg has it right:

Seek clients you want to pay the right price for an excellent product. Not the lowest price for a mediocre product.

That's a treadmill you don't want to be on.

IBloom

[Harry Clark]

Richard, I certainly have experienced this. But Ian is right. Avoid the race to the bottom.
I've had MANY "fishing expedition" phone calls since getting my Red. I'll send a quote, pencil in the dates, only to have the client call back and say that there's a kid somewhere who can do it for less than half. And that's fine. I simply will not slide that far.
Most of my regular clients see that the value added by a "pro" level package and support is worth it. That's why the Arri and Panavision products still race out the door at rental houses. I suspect the Sony F35 will too.
That leads me to wonder about the horse-and-cart question: Are they regular clients of mine because they are professional and willing to spend the right money, or are they willing to spend the money because they have regularly rented from me and are in a comfort zone?
Being in the rental business always means a little Delancey Street type negotiating. And that's fine; I actually enjoy it. However, if there is too little money, it becomes the film HOBBY, not the film BUSINESS. And that's OK if you're making little art films. If you're making commercials, corporates, or any kind of for-profit venture, it's a waste of time to not get paid the right money.
K. Berlin, I do hope that Epic lives up to a higher standard and that it will become the rental camera of choice, leaving all the lower budget stuff to the Red One and Scarlet. There will certainly be a value added component with Epic that will benefit those of us in the pro arena.
Cheers,
Harry