Avid workflow with red camera

[lauren]

Hello all

I am currently working in a post production facility. We are working primarily on commercials. I am trying to get a solid answer regarding what hardware/software I need to use the red camera footage on an Avid to edit for Broadcast. Can anyone tell me the best way to approach our next project shot on the red camera 1 in regards to software/hardware/processes etc...thanks

Lauren

[Vigen Vartanov]

My idea is , Get 1 MacPro , minimum configuration , Then work with footage with proxys . When you will have ready timeline just render out it from REDCINE + Crimson . Thant you can get 10 Bit 2K ,HD DPX files , and go to AVID . And finish youre project in avid. For commercials you will need 10-15 minuts of good footage . Just with help of proxy files you can select good and bad footage.

[Rainer Fritz]

Look a little bit through the AVID threads in the 4k workflow section....
A Media Composer on a MAC Pro is a good start....

and visit this site:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/tutorials/trainup/9261.html

regards
rainer

[Jörgen Persson]

My idea is , Get 1 MacPro , minimum configuration , Then work with footage with proxys . When you will have ready timeline just render out it from REDCINE + Crimson . Thant you can get 10 Bit 2K ,HD DPX files , and go to AVID . And finish youre project in avid. For commercials you will need 10-15 minuts of good footage . Just with help of proxy files you can select good and bad footage.

That doen't make any sense. I think the OP wants to offline in Avid.

For now the workflow is all about creating an ALE and quicktimes.
Create the quicktimes in Redcine, REDline/Redalert or compressor. Set the codec to an Avid one for fast import later on. (DNxHD 36 is great for offline purposes but can only be done in Compressor at the moment, I think)
Create the ALE with the Redline automator actions or use Metacheater from www.staticpictures.com/metacheater

Import the ALE into Avid and then batch import the quicktimes from that ALE. Edit away.

After you have an offline cut you can either load an EDL in Scratch for native r3d file conform or export dpx in Redcine/Redline for Smoke, Avid DS or other finishing tools.

It's very elegant when you know how to do it.
Soon the workflow will be better when more software companies get access to the SDK.

[Paul Rosckes]

After you have an offline cut you can either load an EDL in Scratch for native r3d file conform or export dpx in Redcine/Redline for Smoke, Avid DS or other finishing tools.

It's very elegant when you know how to do it.
Soon the workflow will be better when more software companies get access to the SDK.

Sure, it's very elegant if you don't mind rendering out the entire contents of every .R3D file from your shoot as DPX sequences (and Scratch in not an option for many of us).

Right now I would like to know if someone has come up with a simple workflow for generating an XML pull list for Redcine from an Avid offline. For many reasons, we're still running MC 2.8, and the easiest workflow I've seen is to output a decomposed OMF2 to FCP (which requires Automatic Duck). Then output an XML to Crimson. And, finally generate an XML out of Crimson for Redcine. BTW, I haven't tested this myself, so I'm not 100% sure it will work.

Please, someone tell me there's an easier way (and don't tell me to upgrade to MC 3.0, because it's just not possible right now).

Thanks,
Paul

[MichaelP]

The pull list will be out in a couple weeks - (mid-July). We are working out the final whitepaper and is going under review and final QA testing. This will have the pull list from Avid back to RedCine for all shots used. Shortly we will update those to have cuts + handles with optimization.

Michael

[Paul Rosckes]

The pull list will be out in a couple weeks - (mid-July). We are working out the final whitepaper and is going under review and final QA testing. This will have the pull list from Avid back to RedCine for all shots used. Shortly we will update those to have cuts + handles with optimization.

Michael

Will this workflow require MC 3.0? If yes, we will probably upgrade one of our MC Soft copies to 3.0 to act as a conduit to generate the XML. All of our Avids would require new Intel Macs to go to 3.0, and we can't afford to do that this year.

Also, do you know if the workflow I described earlier (Avid to FCP to Crimson to Redcine) has been tested? And if it does work, I'm assuming there's no need to relink media in FCP, since we're just moving metadata. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Paul

[Jason Diamond]

you don't need intel macs for 3.0
we beta tested V3.0 on our dual2.5ghz G5's and they performed beautifully.
the only reason you need an intel mac is for the new Avid HW they announced because of its meridien style bus-card architecture.
otherwise upgrade away and enjoy the new stuff.
there is a random bug right now with Adrenaline boxes and leopard but we haven't seemed to find it. it crops up during digitizing but you can just restart the box/software and be fine apparently.
Avid is aware of it and working to fix it.

[Paul Rosckes]

you don't need intel macs for 3.0
we beta tested V3.0 on our dual2.5ghz G5's and they performed beautifully.
the only reason you need an intel mac is for the new Avid HW they announced because of its meridien style bus-card architecture.
otherwise upgrade away and enjoy the new stuff.
there is a random bug right now with Adrenaline boxes and leopard but we haven't seemed to find it. it crops up during digitizing but you can just restart the box/software and be fine apparently.
Avid is aware of it and working to fix it.

Thanks! That's very interesting, because here's exactly what it says on Avid's website:

Minimum system requirements for Media Composer Software - Mac
Processors:

* Intel dual, dual core 2.66 GHz Xeon
* Intel Core 2 Duo 2.33 GHz (laptops)

Unfortunately, I didn't carefully read the fine print which states that this is the recommended, Avid-qualified platform. But other non-Avid-qualified platforms could work fine (although, Avid will NOT provide support for non-qualified platforms, whatever THAT means).

Unfortunately, we are still not ready to purchase 14 software upgrades at this time. And I would like to wait until the Adrenaline/Mac issue is fully resolved . But it is nice to know that we can get some more life out of our 18-month-old G5s.

-Paul

[MichaelP]

The XML export is from Avid FilmScribe which can open bins from Meridian, and Adrenaline versions 1.x through latest release of v3. As of now, the XML to ALE are for HD workflows unless working at 25fps which is good for PAL and HD. 24fps in a NTSC based world needs to be HD for now. We will work on XML to ALE for NTSC which needs to do some timecode massaging and column reassignment.

Michael

[Paul Rosckes]

The XML export is from Avid FilmScribe which can open bins from Meridian, and Adrenaline versions 1.x through latest release of v3. As of now, the XML to ALE are for HD workflows unless working at 25fps which is good for PAL and HD. 24fps in a NTSC based world needs to be HD for now. We will work on XML to ALE for NTSC which needs to do some timecode massaging and column reassignment.

Michael

I'm sorry Michael, but now I'm REALLY confused. My background is in Flame/Smoke conforming from film scanned DPX sequences (I don't use Avid). But I'm just trying to come up with an efficient RED to AVID for offline, and RED to FLAME for online workflow, which I will pass onto our Avid editors.

Now, why would I want to convert XML to ALE? I thought the whole point was to generate an XML pull list for Redcine. What is the purpose of generating an ALE file? I thought the ALE was just for getting metadata into the AVID for offline editing. Once I have an XML pull list to generate the DPX sequences, I just need a traditional EDL from Avid to execute the conform. Once I'm over that hurdle, I will work on XML and/or AAF conforming in Flame to bring in multi-layer timelines and effects.

Also, I'm assuming the FilmScribe XML export feature is only available in MC 3.0. Is this accurate?

Thanks,
Paul

[Jörgen Persson]

Sure, it's very elegant if you don't mind rendering out the entire contents of every .R3D file from your shoot as DPX sequences (and Scratch in not an option for many of us).

You can do a DPX pull list by using multiple REDline commands with metadata from a decomposed ALE. That's how I have been doing it. I use a spreadsheet to generate the command and put Filename, TC IN and TC OUT into different cells. Then I execute the text file from Terminal. Not very high tech, but it works great.

[gbalaji]

Hello all

I am currently working in a post production facility. We are working primarily on commercials. I am trying to get a solid answer regarding what hardware/software I need to use the red camera footage on an Avid to edit for Broadcast. Can anyone tell me the best way to approach our next project shot on the red camera 1 in regards to software/hardware/processes etc...thanks

Lauren

Try Crimson Workflow

[Jörgen Persson]

Try Crimson Workflow

There's no Crimson workflow for Avid (yet). It's for FCP only.

And the hosting server is down which makes it kind of hard to install at the moment.

[gbalaji]

There's no Crimson workflow for Avid (yet). It's for FCP only.

And the hosting server is down which makes it kind of hard to install at the moment.

Sorry for wrong guidance.

[MichaelP]

When working with RedCine to process your proxy dailies, you will have two steps;

1. Export R3D as Aid DNxHD and convert RedCine XML to ALE for the offline process. This includes all the metadata as tracked within RedCine to ensure the round trip*.
2. After editing, there will be an export to a RedCine Pull list. This is generated from the sequence via Avid FilmScribe. The first step is to generate a master XML of the sequence to which an XSLT file is applied to create the XML expected by RedCine. Once this XML has been imported, export from RedCine as DPX, etc, to process selected needed in final conform.

The above steps are about processing the selected for either offline or online. The conform step can be done with:

1. EDL that uses standard CMX 3600 and the short "reel ID" as defined by Red. For example "A001". This should match what is inserted into the DPX header along with timecode. The timecode as defined by RedCine which in turn uses the same timecode as defined as "primary" in camera
2. EDL that uses the full 16 character file name as source. This provides a more unique source ID and uses the same timecode as defined by RedCine which in turn uses the same timecode as defined as "primary" in camera.

Manufactures are welcome to use the Master XML as generated by Avid FilmScribe from which to conform - it contain all sequence, layers, and most FX descriptions. Keep in mind that this is NOT an AAF XML, but an XML representation as described by Avid FilmScribe. It is a subset of all the information contained within AAF.

Michael

[Scott Simmons]

When working with RedCine to process your proxy dailies, you will have two steps;

1. Export R3D as Aid DNxHD and convert RedCine XML to ALE for the offline process. This includes all the metadata as tracked within RedCine to ensure the round trip*.
2. After editing, there will be an export to a RedCine Pull list. This is generated from the sequence via Avid FilmScribe. The first step is to generate a master XML of the sequence to which an XSLT file is applied to create the XML expected by RedCine. Once this XML has been imported, export from RedCine as DPX, etc, to process selected needed in final conform.

The above steps are about processing the selected for either offline or online. The conform step can be done with:

1. EDL that uses standard CMX 3600 and the short "reel ID" as defined by Red. For example "A001". This should match what is inserted into the DPX header along with timecode. The timecode as defined by RedCine which in turn uses the same timecode as defined as "primary" in camera
2. EDL that uses the full 16 character file name as source. This provides a more unique source ID and uses the same timecode as defined by RedCine which in turn uses the same timecode as defined as "primary" in camera.

Manufactures are welcome to use the Master XML as generated by Avid FilmScribe from which to conform - it contain all sequence, layers, and most FX descriptions. Keep in mind that this is NOT an AAF XML, but an XML representation as described by Avid FilmScribe. It is a subset of all the information contained within AAF.

Michael

This will be a great workflow when it is released .... we await!

[Matthew Rogers]

When working with RedCine to process your proxy dailies, you will have two steps;

1. Export R3D as Aid DNxHD and convert RedCine XML to ALE for the offline process. This includes all the metadata as tracked within RedCine to ensure the round trip*.
2. After editing, there will be an export to a RedCine Pull list. This is generated from the sequence via Avid FilmScribe. The first step is to generate a master XML of the sequence to which an XSLT file is applied to create the XML expected by RedCine. Once this XML has been imported, export from RedCine as DPX, etc, to process selected needed in final conform.


So will this basically be kind of like the Crimson Workflow? I went today to try and help a possible client figure out if he could get a working RED workflow on his Windows MC 2.8. The only method that I could come up with was to export all the footage at a low res with the clip name and timecode burned it. After the edit would be finished, the editor would have to manually go back and match the clips in RedCine, render them out, and then match them back up in MC. The client almost sounds like he wants to get a FCP system just because of how much easier it is work with RED footage.

Matthew

[MichaelP]

Similar in the sense that if you have the metadata, then you can export lists as needed. This removes an EDL from the process which is quite limiting when it comes to FX, laters, etc.

Michael

[DC71]

Sure, it's very elegant if you don't mind rendering out the entire contents of every .R3D file from your shoot as DPX sequences (and Scratch in not an option for many of us).

Right now I would like to know if someone has come up with a simple workflow for generating an XML pull list for Redcine from an Avid offline. For many reasons, we're still running MC 2.8, and the easiest workflow I've seen is to output a decomposed OMF2 to FCP (which requires Automatic Duck). Then output an XML to Crimson. And, finally generate an XML out of Crimson for Redcine. BTW, I haven't tested this myself, so I'm not 100% sure it will work.

Please, someone tell me there's an easier way (and don't tell me to upgrade to MC 3.0, because it's just not possible right now).

Thanks,
Paul
Heres a way to cut RED files in Avid then make an image sequence:

Input Red files into Avid using Metacheater to get timecode

Edit
Delete all timewarps (else it has an error on export??)
Export OMF2

Input into FCP using Automatic Duck
Ensure sequence settings same as Red proxy
Reconnect all media, locate Red proxies

Export XML

Use Crimson to make Intermediates and a Telecine XML

In RedCine Load Intermediates, then load Telecine XML

Export from Redcine as image seq or what suits you best

[Jason Diamond]

yes well, i agree wouldnt do it for 14 systems in this config but if you needed the V3.0 options do one and you'll be very happy.

[Paul Rosckes]

Heres a way to cut RED files in Avid then make an image sequence:

Input Red files into Avid using Metacheater to get timecode

Edit
Delete all timewarps (else it has an error on export??)
Export OMF2

Input into FCP using Automatic Duck
Ensure sequence settings same as Red proxy
Reconnect all media, locate Red proxies

Export XML

Use Crimson to make Intermediates and a Telecine XML

In RedCine Load Intermediates, then load Telecine XML

Export from Redcine as image seq or what suits you best

I was assuming this was the current workflow, but I didn't know about the timewarp issue. Doesn't this have to be corrected prior to generating the XLM for Redcine? Do you have to manual re-apply all of the timewarps in the FCP timeline one at a time?

Also, why is it even necessary to reconnect back to the Red proxies if you're just moving metadata around? Is it just to double check the edit and make sure everything came across properly in the OMF2 to FCP timeline conversion?

Thanks,
Paul

[Dela]

A quick note to Prosckes (you may already know it):

MC 3.0.1 is out, and it supports 10.4.11. The DNA problem is caused by a 10.5.3 FW driver problem, so 3.0.1 used with 10.4.11 should work fine.

Unless you need to purchase a new system... The newest (Harpertown) Mac Pros don´t support 10.4.x; if you want a Mojo/Adrenaline compatible system, you just have to wait until somebody at Avid or Apple fixes the driver problem.

Best regards

Lars

[simonpeterarnold]

Hi I have recently completed two successful Red jobs using Crimson that were cut on FCP and onlined in Autodesk Smoke and had no problems. I used the Redline feature in Crimson to output DPX with handles rather than Redcine as when I pulled in XML into Redcine the timecodes did not match the footage although the footage was correct it changed the timecodes? I have followed the correct procedure and use the intermediates in Redcine but still no go. Not sure what is going on here, but all was fine using redline feature in Crimson so I have stuck with that.

I have now got a project that has been edited on Avid MC2.8 on a PC and I am having great difficulty conforming the footage in Smoke. I have followed one suggested workflow which is:

Convert QT's to Avid Format we chose DVPAL as offlining at PAL to save on space.
Used Metacheater to get ALE with T/C etc.
Pulled into Avid cut as normal and create EDL.
Pulled EDL into FCP, reconnect media export XML.
Crimson Export DPX using Redline (as previously discussed due to problems with Redcne).
Conform DPX using original EDL.


The problem is occuring when I am coming to convert the footage for online. When doing this I am finding that certain shots are missed out and that the timecodes for the in and outs is altered so when I come to conform not all the footage has exported or it is the wrong footage. I do have speed changes so I can understand some of them and realize I have to to alter them accordingly in FCP but it is also on normal speed shots as well. Also I have noticed when the EDL is pulled into FCP mulitple edits using the same source seem to cock up and it has to create a new clip for each edit rather than have the edits refer to the one original source. Also with some of the dissolves the footage is completely wrong.

At the moment it is looking like I will have to export each cut as a full take which is going to increase my workload and take up valuable storgae for stuff I am not going to need any help or advice to get a Pull list that I can then use to convert my edit only would be extremely helpful.

[MichaelP]

When creating EDL from EDL Manager, are you using the START or the TC24 values? Was the original frame rate 24 or 25? Just want to make sure you are not seeing a cross frame rate issue first since you offlined in SD.

Michael

[simonpeterarnold]

When creating EDL from EDL Manager, are you using the START or the TC24 values? Was the original frame rate 24 or 25? Just want to make sure you are not seeing a cross frame rate issue first since you offlined in SD.

Michael

Not sure as I did not make the EDL the DVPAL quicktimes converted to cut to were 25fps, I will have to check the fps of the r3d I believe some was shot at 100fps although I did notice in Redcine the fps showing up as 24.

[MichaelP]

If you could backtrack some of the frame rate issues, we can find out where it failed in the process. The main question is what was the intended frame rate of the program? The 100fps was for slomo to be played back at ...fps?

Michael

[simonpeterarnold]

If you could backtrack some of the frame rate issues, we can find out where it failed in the process. The main question is what was the intended frame rate of the program? The 100fps was for slomo to be played back at ...fps?

Michael


The project is intended to be all played back at 25fps and was edited in a 25fps project and timeline. I know they have done some speed ramping in avid as well so that will be part of my problem. I will check with the editor on Monday as I am only involved in the online. One thing your previous post has made me think of is that the original proxies supplied by the camera company maybe at 24fps. I used these to make the DVPAL QT's for Avid as we could not get Redcine to do it from the r3d files without crashing all the time and Redline in Crimson does not do DVPAL. So I used batch export in FCP to convert all the original r3d proxie QT's to DVPAL. I am wondering if the original T/C is 24fps and it has carried that over rather than changing it as it would in Redcine. Meaning although I have a DVPAL QT playing at 25fps the timecode metadata may well be 24fps. Again I will check on Monday as not in the office until then.

[James T Mather]

The pull list will be out in a couple weeks - (mid-July). We are working out the final whitepaper and is going under review and final QA testing. This will have the pull list from Avid back to RedCine for all shots used. Shortly we will update those to have cuts + handles with optimization.

Michael

Is there a possibility that Avid will support Red files directly at any stage?

[simonpeterarnold]

Also I am getting confused about what I should be exporting if using Redcine. H I was under the impression that you choose the fps of the project you want to edit, but after checking up some more due to the problems I am having I seem to be getting conflicting views that you export your footage at the source fps. If the later is true then maybe this is also part of my problem and the reason they have used speed ramps. As I know they did shoot at 100fps not sure if it is all of the material so will check. So if they shot at 100fps but we are ediitng and delivering a 25fps program so I export the Qt's for editing at 25fps and the final dpx for online at 25fps or at the original 100fps.

[MichaelP]

Is there a possibility that Avid will support Red files directly at any stage?

Once the SDK is out we can evaluate the time it will take for the various applications to support. Until that time, we cannot say.

Michael

[MichaelP]

There has been some threads here about RedCine still showing 24fps in the metadata even though footage was shot at 25fps - that will affect the timecode. It would also be interesting to see if FCP did a proper timecode conversion as well form 24 to 25.

Media Composer can track both timecode rates as well as do a conversion if needed depending on how the conversion is done in the host application. But if this was not observed at any of the steps along the way, then that would explain the issues.

All DPX output should be done at the final program rate to match the proxies that were created. I need to do some tests on high speed material to see what happens to timecode since SMPTE only handles 24, 25, and 29.97/30 currently.


Michael

[simonpeterarnold]

Hi Michael,

I have looked at the original Proxie QT's created by the camera company and they are 25fps so all is well with my converted QT's for Avid matching up. So not sure what is going on. I think I might have to bite the bullet and purchase Auomatic Duck to get us around the Avid to FCP conversion as the edl route seems not to work as too many things are getting lost in the translation. Or I am just going to have to get the editor to re do the EDL with no speed ramps and then export whole takes although this will give me anhours worth of footage to online a 5min project.

Simon

[MichaelP]

Can you send me the bin with the 5 minute seqeunce? See your PM.

Michael

[simonpeterarnold]

Ok will do, we have managed a work around be getting the editor to take all fx off the edl and he has pretty much changed it to be just source footage and this has worked do we are going this route. Will be interesting to find out any answers as to why it does not work properly with the original EDL.

Just found another problem with Crimson it seems to be misreading the metadata from the r3d files and is changing all the colour settings such as Kelvin to 50000. I have checked them in Redcine and they are only 4000k. Not sure what is up with it so swapped back to Redcine to do the export.

[Andrew Madu]

Once the SDK is out we can evaluate the time it will take for the various applications to support. Until that time, we cannot say.


Has RED given any indication as to when the SDK will be made available?

[NZ1]

There has been some threads here about RedCine still showing 24fps in the metadata even though footage was shot at 25fps - that will affect the timecode. It would also be interesting to see if FCP did a proper timecode conversion as well form 24 to 25.

Media Composer can track both timecode rates as well as do a conversion if needed depending on how the conversion is done in the host application. But if this was not observed at any of the steps along the way, then that would explain the issues.

All DPX output should be done at the final program rate to match the proxies that were created. I need to do some tests on high speed material to see what happens to timecode since SMPTE only handles 24, 25, and 29.97/30 currently.

Michael

Hi Michael


Will you be offering the same Media Composer features in DS Nitris ie; will DS users have the same features available to them soon?

Thanks

[MichaelP]

We are waiting on the SDK to have DS use that directly rather than a proxy.

Michael

[Kerstin]

The XML export is from Avid FilmScribe which can open bins from Meridian, and Adrenaline versions 1.x through latest release of v3. As of now, the XML to ALE are for HD workflows unless working at 25fps which is good for PAL and HD. 24fps in a NTSC based world needs to be HD for now. We will work on XML to ALE for NTSC which needs to do some timecode massaging and column reassignment.

Michael

Bit scared now. Please help.

The original footage was shot at 23.976, all proxys and ALEs were kept in 23.976.
Due to lack of storage we decided to work in an SD project. A 23.976 NTSC SD project came up with big problems in playback. So we re-imported everything to a 24p NTSC project with a play back rate of 23.976.
Will I be able to make correct XML right through FilmScribe?
When I export an EDL and try to import into Final Cut for later XML conversion, it only accepts it in an 29.97 frame rate.
Have we set up the Avid project wrong or is the problem on the Final Cut side?
Will getting an update to 3.0 solve all my problems?

All help very appreciated!

kerstin

[Cameron Preyde]

Michael, has Avid received the SDK from RED yet?