"Knowing"...

[Jannard]

100% Shot on RED... Nicholas Cage movie.

Jim

[Adrian T.]

Awesome! Congrats!

[Andrae Palmer]

Congratulations too.. good to have more movies shot 100% on RED.

[Steve Freebairn]

You can add s. Darko to that list if you want. It was shot 100% with the Red. (I know some people are really upset it's being made, so if you didn't want to add it, I understand).

[Tony Lorentzen]

Seems like movies shot on RED are almost all one-word titles... Jumper, Argentine, Guerilla, Informant, Game and now Knowing... Coincidence? ;-)

Edit: Deleted "Wanted" from the list.

[Jannard]

You have to scratch "Wanted" from that list... :-)

Jim

[cinepost35]

Congrats to the RED TEAM!!!!!

[Axel Mertes]

I like Nicolas Cage and RED, both very much, so its a must see movie...

Congratulations,
Axel

[Jason Diamond]

Richard Kelley no less, so thats a big one. good job!

[Poi Boy]

What a scam !
Aloha
-A

[Zack CC]

Seems like movies shot on RED are almost all one-word titles... Jumper, Wanted, Argentine, Guerilla, Informant, Game and now Knowing... Coincidence? ;-)


TV Shows too... in a ridiculous/strange coincidence.... "twentysixmiles" (they are spelling it as one word), is being shot entirely on RED.

...

/shrugs.


(I happen to be sitting in the Catalina Express ferry terminal with my lappy set up on top of the camera case as i write this.... 0_o Hooray for cell cards.)

[Rick Darge]

Richard Kelley no less, so thats a big one. good job!

Richard Kelly had nothing to do with the sequel

[Álex Montoya]

Here's a gallery of the film:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2008-06-09-knowing-apocalyptic-thrillers_N.htm?csp=34

Are these frame grabs or just production stills?

[Robert Sanders]

Alex Proyas is one of the better filmmakers out there.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Congrats.

Technical specifications for

Knowing (2009). (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448011/technical)

[Vigen Vartanov]

I am interest . Dose red provide some special trainings for big movies
teams. Because it is in interest of company . I don thing that
technical team from this movie spending time on redser , with
questions and problems . Sow is it some information about HOW DOSE RED
HELPS BIG PROJECTS :)

[Jannard]

They had one RED tech on set...

Jim

[Jeremy Neish]

Alex Proyas shooting RED?! Sweet! Dark City is one of my all time favorite movies.

[Vigen Vartanov]

Nice to be with RED Tech on set . And also 999'99 backUp cameras :)

[Neil W. Smith]

100% Shot on RED... Nicholas Cage movie.

Jim,

We had the privilege of recently screening 'Beyond A Reasonable Doubt' a couple of times. The movie stars Michael Douglas and Amber Tamblyn and is directed and DPed by Peter Hyams ... all shot on RED.

Have to say, its the best looking RED footage we've seen so far .... really beautiful and visually stunning. Peter has done a great job in taking RED to the limit of filmic aesthetics ... he really knows how to light and expose the camera to get the most out of the imager and lenses ... and of course, having Michael Douglas in front of the glass doesn't do any harm.

I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised when you see what your baby can do in the hands of a consummate movie professional and great crew.

You come a long ways since we graded those first images of your Porsche 959 .... and like the 959, you've built a classic machine.

Keep up the brilliant work.

All the best,
Neil

[Christopher Nagel]

Seems like movies shot on RED are almost all one-word titles... Jumper, Wanted, Argentine, Guerilla, Informant, Game and now Knowing... Coincidence? ;-)

Huh. Haven't heard of Coincidence yet - who's in it? Who's shooting it? At least it's still a 1-word title... :devil:

Personally, I can't imagine making another movie without RED. Not that I've made one *with* it, but I'd rather not make another than make it without a RED.

Chris

[Tony Lorentzen]

Coincidence is the feature I'm planning on shooting once my RED arrives. So where's my camera Jim? ;-)

[Peter Majtan]

Tony! That is what I am planing to do! Isn't that a "coincidence"? Just kidding. Good luck with the project...

[Steven Parker]

Seems like movies shot on RED are almost all one-word titles... Jumper, Argentine, Guerilla, Informant, Game and now Knowing... Coincidence? ;-)

Edit: Deleted "Wanted" from the list.

Wow... how could you guys forget Manure?....

[Thor Wixom]

Desert of Eden will soon join the list.

3 words. :-)

-Thor

[Tony Lorentzen]

Wow... how could you guys forget Manure?....

You're right. Sorry Mr. Mullen :biggrin:

[Jason Diamond]

i Meant "knowing" he orig wrote it and i forgot he dropped off and alex proyas grabbed it and they rewrote his script.

so thats my actual statement! hahahha

i know he has nothing to do with Darko 2 electric boogaloo

[TedRed]

I can't say much yet. But what I can say, is I can't wait for you all to see what I've seen regarding the look of the footage from "Knowing". It is stunning and wonderful to watch. The DP did amazing work, really locked into how to make the best images from RED, and it shows. It's fantastic stuff.

Reporting from India on the 6th week of my globetrotting in Asia and the Pacific Rim.

+ Ted

[Brook Willard]

Heheh, I spent 2 years in the office that produced that film. Lets just say it might not be an accident that RED came to mind... :)

I obviously can't say much either, but you guys are in for a treat. It's a great story.

[Christian Edwards]

Its very reassuring knowing features are being shot on Red , i guess you guys really hit the ground running

[dvpixl]

lots of end of the world movies out lately... esp the rumored 12.12.2012

congrats to RED.

[roryhinds]

congrats Jim, great to hear 100%.

Can't wait to see what you have install for EPIC.

[Chris Swinbanks]

not giving anything away here and I've cropped this down, but see if you can spot the irony... day 1 of shoot....

[Steven-Marc C.]

Upper left corner... ;)

[dvpixl]

wow. awesome set up.

.. btw, are those big boxed up SLR's a silencer? I always wanted to know....

[Bing Bailey]

I think the specs that were posted were just tip of the iceberg. out of the gate they have all the experience gained on the red one. the starting position will be really really strong. I wouldn't be surprised if the FPS goes higher than 100FPS.

what would really blow the gasket is a DR of 14 stops or more and we can hit the ground running because all the pieces ready for the red one will be ready for epic too when it appears

[Joseph Hutson]

Seems like movies shot on RED are almost all one-word titles... Jumper, Argentine, Guerilla, Informant, Game and now Knowing... Coincidence? ;-)

Edit: Deleted "Wanted" from the list.

What about "The Nothing Men" that are featured on Red.com?

[Chris Swinbanks]

Yeah, well I think its actually "The Knowing"...., blows the theory ever so slightly :usd:
Doh... just been told its never been "The"... (despite it being printed on lots of things).... I'll defer to Alex (P) and use its singularity.. "Knowing"


"The Nothing Men" was graded next door to us.... Warren Lynch (Intercolour) on FilmMaster. What little footage I saw looked good.

[reduser1242]

Trailer is online:

http://movies.ign.com/dor/objects/730425/knowing/videos/knowing_trlr1_070308.html

[Jan Reiff]

okay okay, i sell my filmcamera ...

[dvpixl]

wow. Looks... like a regular blockbuster film.

[Jerrod Cordell]

Don't forget G.I. Joe.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1046173/technical

The footage looks awesome. And the story may be good. It's hard to tell from the melodramatic trailer. I just hope Nicholas Cage does better in this than he did in The Wicker Man. *shivers*

[Barry Gregg]

The trailer for Knowing looks fantastic.

We are currently shooting a small sci-fi with #1043, mostly hand held.

http://www.lifetreestudios.com/RED/

[Michael Schrengohst]

Just saw the "Knowing" trailer in a DLP theatre. The subject matter alone is compelling enough to want to see this film. To know it was shot on RED is just icing on the cake!

[KETCH ROSSi]

Great news Jim!

Love the trailer, even so I freaked out after seen the clip, as I have reaccuring dreams about escaping Plain crashes, and I'm talking about having this dreams since I was a child!


The fact that there is also The RED 300mm Prime lens on set is to prove once again the greatness of that lens.

ciao

[Darren Orange]

What glass where they using? Anyone have any idea?....Also maybe what they Graded it with.

[Jared Caldwell]

TV Shows too... in a ridiculous/strange coincidence.... "twentysixmiles" (they are spelling it as one word), is being shot entirely on RED.

...

/shrugs.


(I happen to be sitting in the Catalina Express ferry terminal with my lappy set up on top of the camera case as i write this.... 0_o Hooray for cell cards.)

I was on Catalina Island while they were shooting "twentysixmiles". It was my first time on the west coast, so needless to say I was excited to see a crew. I saw they were shooting with Red Ones, so I stopped to talk to one of the camera guys while they were moving to a new set-up.

I didn't know if they were shooting for theatrical release or not, so I asked if they were planning on doing a film-out. He said they were shooting for a tv show, and that it would be high def.

With this, I was curious as to what he thought of Scarlet. His reply was that it would be a great home movie camera! I really couldn't believe it!

It is strange that even amongst some Red One users, there is a stigma that Scarlet is going to be a toy. After I talked to him about some of the specs and the resolution (3k with at least pristine 2k at the end of the day), he conceded a little bit, but I couldn't believe he thought Scarlet was going to be a toy!?

Just thought I would share my encounter.

-Jared

[Justin K Phillips]

If Scarlet is a toy, what the heck does that make my HV20? An infant's toy?

[Jerrod Cordell]

Well it'll be the best toy of all time. :)

[Finner]

Scarlet will be fun for home video stuff and the odd crash camera. IMO It will not be a high level pro camera.

[Jannard]

Scarlet will be fun for home video stuff and the odd crash camera. IMO It will not be a high level pro camera.

So you are saying an F23 is not a high level pro camera? :-)

Jim

[Finner]

So you are saying an F23 is not a high level pro camera? :-)

Jim

From everything I have seen based on pure image alone the F23 beats the Red One.

So based on your quote are you saying the Scarlet will have a better image then the Red One? :-)

[Jannard]

From everything I have seen based on pure image alone the F23 beats the Red One.

So based on your quote are you saying the Scarlet will have a better image then the Red One? :-)

There are many that disagree with you... but you are used to that. :-)

Scarlet will have less resolution than a RED ONE... slightly more than an F23, more DR than a RED ONE (before upgrade) and all the advantages of shooting RAW... plus shoot 120 fps (180 fps 5 sec. burst). Your response is based on actually shooting the F23? Or, "just what you have heard"? I have talked directly with those that have shot the F23 and have a different opinion than yours. I personally have not shot it.

And further... :-) the F23 shoots 30 fps. So is the discussion just image quality, or as a Pro tool as you 1st stated?

For you to dismiss Scarlet as not being a Pro tool without having seen what it is or what it does seems... rather Baywatch to me.

BTW... actual measured resolution of Scarlet will be 2.1K (72% of 3K).

And another thing... the F23 has a 2/3" sensor compared to the RED ONE 35mm sensor. How does that play into your comparison? Are you basing your RED ONE comparison to the F23 solely on DR? Check your sources (the edge is much less than people talk about). Resolution? Don't think so. Color? Low light capability? Try shooting an F23 at ISO 1000. What specifically would make you say that? Just curious... maybe it is based on weight? Is that why people are lined up to rent them?

Looks like you found my button...

Jim

[Poi Boy]

"rather Baywatch" great retort, LOL too funny Jim.
Aloha
-A
Finally tried out B16 today on some flowers outdoors; very impressive. Congratulations Red people !

[Jannard]

And another thing... :-)

How many home video cameras look like this?

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_scarletsidesm.jpg

[Harrison Diamond]

I am loving that new Scarlet render, Jim.

[Thom Steinhoff]

And another thing... :-)

How many home video cameras look like this?

Amazing. That looks just like mine is going to look!

By the way. The "Baywatch moment" makes that my post of the day!

[Nathan Garofalos]

I CAN'T WAIT TO GET ONE!!! THAT IS SO SICK!!! The lens looks like the 18-85 and the primes at NAB!!! AHHHhhh Thats so awesome. Nice job RED!

P.S. Build 16 is awesome and the proxies aren't as dark as in build 15, I'll post some stills after I finish the project.

[Thom Steinhoff]

Beautiful render!

Wait... Is that a flip out LCD I spy?

[Jannard]

Just to make sure everyone knows... I like Finner.

Jim

[Gunleik Groven]

We know, and like him, too :)

[Mike Seymour]

From everything I have seen based on pure image alone the F23 beats the Red One.

So based on your quote are you saying the Scarlet will have a better image then the Red One? :-)

Actually I disagree with that, the F23 and F35 reel shown in the Sony NAB Digital 4K projection suite at NAB did not look better than the 4K projection done on the 4K sony projector at the RED Booth.

I know I may be bias, but I will say the team that shot the F23 / F35 horse footage from Stargate Digital are REALLY good guys. Outstanding film makers - so I was set to be be impressed, and while the framing and general shot design was great, the image quality was not superior. And this film was shot for Sony - for demo purposes.

I would also add another factor here. Post matters. The Viper shot Zodiac looked great when I saw a clean new print - but I have since discovered that the pipeline for that film involved some serious post image processing and clean up (nothing wrong with that) But it is hard to compare cameras, and I fully agree with that, but IMHO the F23/F35 was not superior to the Red Footage - in an environment where both companies were aiming to put their best foot forward.

Mike

[Jeff Coatney]

Loving the look of that lens on your Scarlet render, Jim.

[Darren Orange]

I've seen F23 Footage, not even close to RED. The primary reason is that the sensitivity to detail. The roll off and the greater ability to capture the full range of an image as result of greater resolution. The F23 footage I've seen when exposed best does look good, but the range of the image is certainly far more flat. I would personally take a Viper over an F23 and shoot in it's "Ana" mode, certainly produces some very clean images. Produces a technical 2592x1080 once expanded and that looks awesome. Nothing compared to RED though, can't wait for 4.5K 2.40:1, thats where it's at!

[Sanjin Jukic]

Scarlet will be fun for home video stuff and the odd crash camera. IMO It will not be a high level pro camera.

Unfortunately Finner doesn't know best this time.

[zak forrest]

And another thing... :-)

How many home video cameras look like this?

Jim



.....

[zak forrest]

Unfortunately Finner doesn't know best this time.

haha post of the day #2

[Daniel Browning]

From everything I have seen based on pure image alone the F23 beats the Red One.


Are you basing your RED ONE comparison to the F23 solely on DR?

He has certainly brought that up many times in the past. Maybe he doesn't know that you can trade resolution for dynamic range?

In fact, the F23 has to have at least one or two stops more dynamic range than RED ONE at the pixel level (100% crops) just to equal the RED ONE at the image level (on the 1080p big screen). The dynamic range of any digital camera is the signal to noise ratio, and noise is reduced by resampling. (I also wonder if noise reduction is being performed on the RED ONE images, since the F23 very likely is, which would skew the dynamic range comparison.)

Edit: One more thing: the F23, with a 3CCD design, has 25% more blue-filtered photosites, which is very handy in Tungsten light.

[Andrew M.]

I have notice one thing about Finner remarks, when I talk to people coming from the average film background, I hear the same opinion.

After Finner claimed that RED has only 8 stops I ask few people that used RED by renting it for the first few times (not the owners) and amazingly I have heard the same opinions.

I guess there is more people out there that knows how to set the film or F23 camera and the lighting for it, the right way, then people that knows how to set things the right way for RAW camera shooting.

It takes a combination of educating the customer base and a camera backward operating compatibility to change it around.

[Finner]

There are many that disagree with you... but you are used to that. :-)

I'm married Jim. Of course I'm use to that!

[Finner]

Just to make sure everyone knows... I like Finner.

Jim

I know that Jim. Just wanted to shake things up a bit. It gets borring here every once and a while and it did get you to post a new scarlet render (ha).

I think a good F23, F35, D21, genesis and Red test is in order as soon as build 16 is bullet proof.

[Jared Caldwell]

Woohoo! Thanks for the new Scarlet render, Jim! A lot of us over at ScarletUser have been chomping at the bits for news! :D

[Joseph Ward]

Thanks Finner! :sarcasm: lol

[Lyndel Crosley, SOC]

Well, its about time Hollywood gets a grip. You know it and I know it. The RED ONE is going to work in Hollywood. KUDOS to DP: Simon Duggan for having the stuff to make that call!

LYNDEL CROSLEY, soc
Digital Imaging & Data/Media Management Tech
Workflow Specialist
(818) 424-6186 DragonsEyesProd@aol.com

[Matt Newcomb]

That looks beautiful, but I hope the specular highlighting is turned down a bit for the actual camera ;)

[Jannard]

That looks beautiful, but I hope the specular highlighting is turned down a bit for the actual camera ;)

hehe... here we go again. I told Matt to make it "shiny silver" in the render just to drive everyone nuts.. we decided against it. This is a render. Not a photograph.

Jim

[Hrvoje Simic]

Nice! Great job, Finner. :-)

[Jared Caldwell]

And just think, if only that "26miles" cameraman hadn't called Scarlet a toy! :D

[Joseph Ward]

And just think, if only that "26miles" cameraman hadn't called Scarlet a toy! :D

I know. :wink:

[Sanjin Jukic]

I heard that actually Scarlet as a small factor professional cine digital camera was the first ordered to shot a full feature from one Academy Award Winning Director.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Or Finner knows that fact better but not always the best as we know :).

[Hrvoje Simic]

Ha ha it's on Gizmodo.


New Red Scarlet Cam Prototype Looks Rugged, Can Probably Kill You with Death Rays

link (http://gizmodo.com/5023884/new-red-scarlet-cam-prototype-looks-rugged-can-probably-kill-you-with-death-rays)

[Matt Newcomb]

hehe... here we go again. I told Matt to make it "shiny silver" in the render just to drive everyone nuts.. we decided against it. This is a render. Not a photograph.

Jim

Next time make sure to add some bloom and a nice lens flare to really make it pop! :devil:

Thanks for keeping us all in the know though.

[Jeff Coatney]

I especially liked the cooling system on Scarlet's Reactor Core.

[Peter Lyons Collister, ASC]

Jim et al,

I am on the DGA Digital Day committee putting together a loop on HDCAM SR for 2K projection on August 2nd. Any chance on getting a demo reel for the Director's Guild if one exists?

Much appreciated.

Peter

Peter Lyons Collister, ASC

[Jannard]

Jim et al,

I am on the DGA Digital Day committee putting together a loop on HDCAM SR for 2K projection on August 2nd. Any chance on getting a demo reel for the Director's Guild if one exists?

Much appreciated.

Peter

Peter Lyons Collister, ASC

Contact Ted.

Jim

[Wil Klassen]

hehe... here we go again. I told Matt to make it "shiny silver" in the render just to drive everyone nuts.. we decided against it. This is a render. Not a photograph.

Jim

It kinda reminds me of the Star Wars concept art :) not that thats a bad thing, I know I'll be in line for mine!!! Long story short the render looks amazing! Good work!

[TedRed]

I've already been in touch with folks regarding the DGA event.. It's in the works.

Peter, please feel free to email me directly, ted@red.com to discuss.

Thanks

+ Ted

[Joseph Hutson]

I've already been in touch with folks regarding the DGA event.. It's in the works.

Peter, please feel free to email me directly, ted@red.com to discuss.

Thanks

+ Ted

Why isn't your name in a red color?

[RyanKunkleman]

I was the head data tech on 'knowing'. I was onset dealing with the camera and integrity of the data directly. we had one guy off set doing backups and burning in the dailies color correction that we set with the dp. we were using a combination of Adobe Lightroom and Redalert. The quicktimes were created and ingested into avid by our editorial department. Alan Chesher(Sydney) and Caleb Folkes(Melbourne) were my two compatriots. Alan also worked on nothing man.
Alan started on the data truck doing the backups and took on the responsibility of second unit data tech. Thats when we brought Caleb on for the data truck.

[KETCH ROSSi]

And another thing... :-)

How many home video cameras look like this?

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_scarletsidesm.jpg

Well ... since I will have several of this for more then one use been the primary one Behind the scenes documentaries from both my Movies and my Photo shoots Blue Rays, I can only say one think about the look of it ...




ONLY S%$#@T!!!



I might be using way more then my crew will,:angry01: :w00t: :w00t:


ciao

[Jason Wingrove]

I just did a great interview with Ryan, head of the Knowing's DIT department, watch out for episode 10 (not out yet but v soon) of the REDCentre podcast.

thanks again Ryan for a great chat

Cheers
jason

isten here:
http://www.fxguide.com/redcentre

or subscribe in itunes:
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=277775280

[Nils Ruinet]

Why ae you guys saying the Scarlett will have greater dynamic range than Redone?
Because it has a new sensor.

[TedRed]

I think my name's not in Red because I don't spend a lot of time on the forums (as you can see)... Perhaps when they put wifi on all the long international flights that will change :-)

[Thor Wixom]

At this moment, you're at post #21, Ted.

You should double down!

-Thor

[Martin Weiss]

It does give me a little chuckle that Ted is defined as "Junior member" :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/8467_1216028094.png

[Joseph Hutson]

At 0.11 posts per day, that means Ted is a BUSY man.

[TedRed]

I like being a Junior Member... it somehow suits me, since I can't hold a candle to the forum jockeys here :-) Everyone has their particular way to communicate - I fully appreciate and read much of the activity that goes on, and learn a lot from the various back and forth, as we all do at RED.

All good!

[Peter Majtan]

I hope Ted You do join over at scaretuser - we don't care about post count there... :clown2:

[Anthony S. Pratt]

I just did a great interview with Ryan, head of the Knowing's DIT department, watch out for episode 10 (not out yet but v soon) of the REDCentre podcast.

thanks again Ryan for a great chat


That will be really interesting. Looks like they've done great work :-)
Funniest geekcast out there btw boys...

[Joseph Hutson]

I like being a Junior Member... it somehow suits me, since I can't hold a candle to the forum jockeys here :-) Everyone has their particular way to communicate - I fully appreciate and read much of the activity that goes on, and learn a lot from the various back and forth, as we all do at RED.

All good!

Ted, DON'T post these kind of things, you can't be Junior member tht way! :)

[DanWood]

I think a good F23, F35, D21, genesis and Red test is in order as soon as build 16 is bullet proof.

Sony cannot make a 3 CCD 35mm camera: Limitations of Physics.
F23 is the best 3 CCD they can make.
F35 is based on 1 CCD. But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?)

D21 and Genesis are also kinda concpet cameras. They are over priced and they cannot sell many of them.
So, the market is left with only one clear leader: RED.

Under these circumstances, a comparison between F23, F35, Genesis and RED are unnecessary. For better or worse, within 2 years, Hollywood will use RED exclusively.

In the mean while, stop pushing in Jim's buttons by mentioning F23, Sony, etc.

The European Football matches were recorded mostly on Sony. Sony will be a continuing force in the broadcast business. However, RED has banished Sony from movie making arena.

[Jeff Brue]

just did that test....its quite something to see a million dollars worth of cameras and lenses strapped to a van, driving through downtown LA.

[Michael Bravin]

Sony cannot make a 3 CCD 35mm camera: Limitations of Physics.
F23 is the best 3 CCD they can make.
F35 is based on 1 CCD. But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?)

However, RED has banished Sony from movie making arena.


Hmmmm Dan a few facts might help this discussion
1. Sony already had a 1" 3 CCD HD camera in 1985 the HDC500
2. If the F23 is the best they can make (which it is not) that ain't half bad
3. We already have several orders for F35 cameras and they don't ship till Sept
4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

You might want to wait and see the test that Jeff is referring to, or maybe not.

I don't think JJ "worries" or gets his buttons pushed about the F23 OR F35, or any camera not made by RED :)

What I get is that YOU like RED and YOU think it's the only camera to shoot with.

BUT

Trust me in 2 years ALL movies in Hollywood will NOT be shot with RED or any digital camera for that matter. You might want to go see Batman "The Dark Knight" to understand only one reason why.

Sure it's conceivable that many may be shot on RED but not even a majority. This statement comes from a basic and fundamental understanding of how equipment for Hollywood features is selected.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

[Robert Sanders]

I think the REDONE is an amazing camera system.

i also think the F23 is an amazing camera system.

Two completely different flavors, different approaches to workflow, different optics, completely different "looks". Both gorgeous.

[Jason Wingrove]

RedCentre Episode 10 is now up where i chat first hand with Ryan Kunkleman, lead Data tech of Knowing ( and Game). Well worth a listen And big thanks to Ryan for a great interview matey.

Please subscribe to the feed and love to hear any feedback or suggestions for stories via red@fxguide.com

Cheers
Jason & Mike



listen here:
http://www.fxguide.com/redcentre

or subscribe in itunes:
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=277775280

_

[Joseph Hutson]

4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

I believe what he meant was for the PRICE of Sony's cameras, the Scarlet and Red have no competition...what is the price of the F35, and Genesis?

[Michael Bravin]

Joseph
Not sure what he "really" meant but what he really wrote about F35 was:
But it is a concept camera. Sony has no plans to sell it for profit. (Who will buy at such high prices?

It's not a concept camera and Sony, like RED, like many on this list, is in business to make money so of course they plan on selling it for profit. Those who need an F35 will buy it. Smart successful business people who's business it is to rent high end, high performance motion picture production equipment, many who also own RED ONE and will probably own Epic. Sony will not sell thousands of F35s but there are already couple hundred F23's in the market now and it shipped AFTER RED ONE was available. The Genesis is not for sale but there are probably over 50 on features and commercials and TV shows as I type this.

The RED one is a fantastic, paradigm changing tool. It does some amazing things. It is not a replacement for ALL serious production tools. To claim this does nothing to enhance the camera itself and only identifies the claimant as being naive, thoughtless, or inexperienced in their craft.

David Mullen, who is a big supporter of RED has posted many times on these lists the reality of the RED ONE as a Cinematographer's tool, among MANY in a professional and competent DP's toolkit. David is a professional craftsman and artist as well as a very accomplished cinephile and film buff. Worth listening to.

Rant Off

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

[Robert Sanders]

Mr. Bravin is one smart dude. I'll tell you that much.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Bravin at BandPro in 2005 just before we shot a project on the F900 (we rented through Jeff Bleauvelt over at HDCINEMA). Mr. Bravin's advise on how best to yield the F900 was immeasurable and our project was definitely the better for it. Although he won't remember me, he definitely left an impression on me and my DP.

His participation on this board is as valuable as is David Mullen's.

Just my opinion.

[laperal@info.com.ph]

The same Sony team that developed the F23 and the F35 is developing a Sony 4K camera. I hope to see a prototype by NAB 2009. I will bet you a cup of coffee!

[Jason Sinclair]

who is sony?

[number6]

The same Sony team that developed the F23 and the F35 is developing a Sony 4K camera. I hope to see a prototype by NAB 2009. I will bet you a cup of coffee!

Wonder if it will be "upgradeable for life"?

[car3o]

nice....

[LawrenceDinkins]

Hmmmm Dan a few facts might help this discussion
1. Sony already had a 1" 3 CCD HD camera in 1985 the HDC500
2. If the F23 is the best they can make (which it is not) that ain't half bad
3. We already have several orders for F35 cameras and they don't ship till Sept
4. HUH? Between the Genesis, F23 and soon the F35, this statement is, hardly factual, totally unsupportable, and doesn't even makes any sense.

Sure it's conceivable that many may be shot on RED but not even a majority. This statement comes from a basic and fundamental understanding of how equipment for Hollywood features is selected.



Isn't HDC 500 a 1/3" surveillance camera?

35mm prism block for 3ccd will hardly fit the rear element of most 35mm PL lenses, without destroying image quality. That is the limitations of physics.

prediction of RED taking over Hollywood in 2 years is a general statement to indicate a trend. If Jim can sell tens of thousands of REDs, the RED will become de facto standard. In 2 years, Jim will sell ten thousand cameras. That is more than all the cameras sold by all competition in the movie market.

Can Sony/Panasonoc/canon put together a 4K or 8K camera today? Yes. But they have no plans to, as of now.

[Michael Bravin]

Isn't HDC 500 a 1/3" surveillance camera?

35mm prism block for 3ccd will hardly fit the rear element of most 35mm PL lenses, without destroying image quality. That is the limitations of physics.

prediction of RED taking over Hollywood in 2 years is a general statement to indicate a trend. If Jim can sell tens of thousands of REDs, the RED will become de facto standard. In 2 years, Jim will sell ten thousand cameras. That is more than all the cameras sold by all competition in the movie market.

Can Sony/Panasonoc/canon put together a 4K or 8K camera today? Yes. But they have no plans to, as of now.

Nope the HDC 500 was always a 1" 3CCD HDVS camera that was RETIRED in about 1989 or so.

Never said PL mount. PL Mount is a film camera lens mount and this was a 3CCD electronic camera with 3 1" CCDs a prism etc. There also was an HDC 300 which was 3 1" tubes. PL Mount film lenses were not appropriate lenses for this camera.

RED could sell 1 million cameras and it doesn't change the realities of how equipment is selected for producing features. UNLESS they destroy every existing film and digital camera, all the film stock along with Kodak and Fuji as companies and buy Sony Panasonic ARRI and Panavision just to close them down. Then POSSIBLY you would be correct. I doubt this is part of any plan by RED, however.

Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same.

Magical thinking about gear is fun, no doubt about that, but it has little or no effect on the reality of motion picture production.

Not knowing about something or failing to look into something doesn't make it not so. Keep in mind that fantastic, unreal situations belong in the script, not in discussions about technical issues regarding equipment.

Why isn't it enough that RED makes an interesting, popular and paradigm breaking tool that you chose to buy, support or use? The need for validation of ones choices in life through the destruction or diminuation of another's is immature and unprofessional in my view.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

[HD Bubaloo]

Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.

[HD Bubaloo]

"Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required."

I wanted to clarify that. Due to the nature of your Sony business, your smug abrasive posts are probably required due to the reality of who you work for and your pushing a competing product. Oh right, they aren't competing in your world.

[Robert Sanders]

That seems a bit extreme.

RED has undoubtedly shaken up the industry. At least the indy scene. I, personally, can't wait to get my hands on one to shoot a project with.

But the reality is that older, die-in-the-wool, cinematographers are just as brand loyal as RED enthusiasts. The minute Panavision announces a 4K version of the Genesis you're going to see at least HALF of all these cinematographers stick with Panavision. They know them. They like them. They've got a long term established relationship. They like their toys. It's familiar. Trust me, once Panavision pronounces they too have a 4K solution (regardless if it's worse than RED) they'll be happy that there's an "alternative" to RED so they can stick with what they know.

I know this mentality sucks. But it's here.

[Michael Bravin]

Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.

Bubaloo

My comments were not directed at most of those on this list who are professional sensible rational intelligent thoughtful people. There are thousands of people who read and post here who I was not directing my comments to.

I also am not a know it all. I am a professional with many years experience and frankly like many professional people who read and post here do not understand the tenor or content of many of the posts here on REDUSER that include statements like within 2 years all Hollywood features will be shot on RED or that RED will put ARRI or Panavision or Sony out of business.

Those who know me know I am direct and do not suffer stupidity or foolishness, may be a fault I don't know. To those who ARE foolish and silly in their comments and think I am an A hole I really could care less.

If I offended anyone who isn't in that group I sincerely appologize.

I do not work for Sony and I am not required to behave any specific way. We do not sell the competition to RED we sell into the same markets and we sell to people who own RED ONE and other tools along with some who own Sony cameras. I personally bought a RED camera #54.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

[Gregory Leno]

Due to the nature of your business, your smug abrasive reality is required. Maybe you can give smaller doses however, as you come off as an A-Hole rather than the know-it-all you want people to think you are. Rather than pretending that nobody on this site actually works in this business except for you, maybe you can just say "hey, this is a great camera and its another tool to add into the mix" and leave it at that.

"Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same."

Interesting Michael that YOU know what Panasonic may or may not be doing. Very insightful.


I don't think Michael was being abrasive or smug at all. Frankly given who he is and what he does for a living, I find his posts here very valuable.

Greg

[Chris Swinbanks]

boy, has this thread ever gotten off-topic.... :ranting2:
maybe I'm just up to my ears in "Knowing" rushes and jump anytime I see the word in my emails :mail1:

[Christoffer Glans]

Can anyone link to a HD trailer... keep getting youtube quality.

[Joseph Hutson]

boy, has this thread ever gotten off-topic.... :ranting2:
maybe I'm just up to my ears in "Knowing" rushes and jump anytime I see the word in my emails :mail1:

Well, if it hadn't gone "off-topic" no one would be talking about the "on-topic" subject. :w00t:

[CinemaDP@aol.com]

Not all of Jumper, I shot some 35mm on that film.

[Filipo]

Not all of Jumper, I shot some 35mm on that film.

Red was the second unit?

[HD Bubaloo]

Michael
You would have a point about not being in bed with Sony if nobody had ever been to the Band Pro website or visited in person. Everyone knows Band Pro as a Sony house. Why bother pretending otherwise. Its silly. Does it show bias? Yes. But everyone is biased, just be real about it.

People here (some are fanboys clearly) get excited as it seems RED has put the others into a forced form of expedited change. Is it exaggerated excitement?, sure.

I suppose the fact that "the CTO of Band Pro" actually purchased a RED One personally after being in bed with Sony at Band Pro for many many years is interesting in itself. With your extensive background in the field (especially with Sony) you must have a lot of faith in the RED One to fork down 20K+ on it. Not after it had been in the field for a few years. Not after the kinks had been worked out. Rather, to jump right in and buy Camera #54 (an early adopter). RED was so new and unknown. Yet it was innovative, inexpensive, and had the ability to deliver quality on par or better than others. Maybe you are more of a believer than you portray. Or maybe you just have money to burn. Maybe you wanted to see what it can do in order to sell against it. I can't think of any CTO's or owners of rental houses who actually own a camera better than a AG-HVX200 outside of maybe the Clairmont brothers.

What was your motivation to buy??? And so early on?

[Hugues Wisniewski]

Scarlet will have ... more DR than a RED ONE (before upgrade)
Jim

Hi Jim,

Before upgrade, meaning before Build 16?
Build 16 did not really change the dynamic range so, that must be another upgrade. Maybe the future Monstro upgrade?
Is it also too early to mention the extent of the Scarlet sweet spot?
Thanks

[James Press]

I think Jim's referring to the MysteriumX sensor...

[CinemaDP@aol.com]

Yes Red was some but not all 2nd unit on Jumper.

[LawrenceDinkins]

Nope the HDC 500 was always a 1" 3CCD HDVS camera that was RETIRED in about 1989 or so.

Never said PL mount. PL Mount is a film camera lens mount and this was a 3CCD electronic camera with 3 1" CCDs a prism etc. There also was an HDC 300 which was 3 1" tubes. PL Mount film lenses were not appropriate lenses for this camera.

RED could sell 1 million cameras and it doesn't change the realities of how equipment is selected for producing features. UNLESS they destroy every existing film and digital camera, all the film stock along with Kodak and Fuji as companies and buy Sony Panasonic ARRI and Panavision just to close them down. Then POSSIBLY you would be correct. I doubt this is part of any plan by RED, however.

Interesting that YOU know what Sony Panasonic and Canon are doing in 4K. The REAL facts are that Panavision and Sony are BOTH developing 4K cameras as I type this and Panasonic may be doing the same.

Magical thinking about gear is fun, no doubt about that, but it has little or no effect on the reality of motion picture production.

Not knowing about something or failing to look into something doesn't make it not so. Keep in mind that fantastic, unreal situations belong in the script, not in discussions about technical issues regarding equipment.

Why isn't it enough that RED makes an interesting, popular and paradigm breaking tool that you chose to buy, support or use? The need for validation of ones choices in life through the destruction or diminuation of another's is immature and unprofessional in my view.

Michael Bravin
Chief Technology Officer
Band Pro Film & Digital

Sony/Panasonic/Canon etc have the technology today to put together a 4K or 8K or 64K camera. Many fabricators around the globe today are capable of making large size sensors. But, they do not have plans, as of today, to bring such cameras to market, as there is no demand for such devices.

Sony has given "lack of easy 4K post-workflow" as the reason for NOT bringing out 4K cameras.

RED is a 4K, PL mount, $17K, memory Card movie camera. (RED's unique features are in Bold). Though cumbersome, RED has a usable Post- workflow. Putting such high resolution camera in the hands of 10,000 or more DPs in USA would make it the de-facto standard. Just like VHS became standard even though Betamax was technically superior. It is all about market share.

RED could become de-facto standard in the near future. When it happens, the major studios and even Stven Spielberg will be forced to go RED way. Steven Spielberg has given "lack of proven track record" as reason for NOT using digital. This will change when 10000 DPs prove they can make quality pictures with RED. (Guerilla and Argentine were technical disappointments. But, soon there will be several technically superior RED movies out. For example, 'Manure'. )

Sony is a big company. They make their revenue from such popular items as PS3's. Movie cameras do not show up in their bottom lines. I checked with a reliable souce inside Sony: "as of today, Sony has no plans to bring out a 4K, PL mount, $17K camera." I believe this. Also I believe that RED will outsell all its competitors combined, in the near future.

[Jason Murphy]

Sony is a big company. They make their revenue from such popular items as PS3's. Movie cameras do not show up in their bottom lines. I checked with a reliable souce inside Sony: "as of today, Sony has no plans to bring out a 4K, PL mount, $17K camera." I believe this. Also I believe that RED will outsell all its competitors combined, in the near future.

Your point is well made, but just FYI, Sony's been losing money hand over fist on the PS3. The PS3 MIGHT break even or turn a profit this year, if things go really well for them...

[HD Bubaloo]

Steven Speilberg has made it clear since 2000 that until the last film lab shuts down he will shoot on film. You shouldn't use him as an example as his stance is very clear on the matter.

RED will never become a standard as its a brand and just one of many tools out there. Its popular and innovative and "hot" right now, but its not going to be adopted by everyone. This industry is not based on the standardization of anything. This is why we have many flavors of HD, SD, Film formats, frame rates, and aspect ratios.

Its all about choices and art. The technology does not make you an artist.

RED One is an amazing piece of technology. It allows for great filmmakers to present quality work at the highest quality for their money, on video. Unfortunately it also means we will be seeing a lot of crappy movies in ultra high resolution from not so great story tellers. You know, the people who make movies because they have the latest and greatest gear, rather than because they have a story to tell. The good story tellers out there will use whatever technology they can get their hands on for their budget and feature requirements. That may be 35mm, that may be RED One, that may be regular DV25.

[LawrenceDinkins]

I just heard that Samsung is working on a videocamera with 35 mm full size sensor. They have already introduced a cell phone with 8 megapixel camera and a pocket camera that record 720/24 p HD videos. So, the competition for RED may be coming from Samsung, not Sony.

[Jason Wingrove]

since when did samsung make anything pro?... no really?? what have they ever made thats in any way professional? monitors? nope even 2/3' semi pro video cams? nope hmmm well im sure if they do it will be firmly a 'video camera' as they have zero 'film' based mindset.

[Jason Wingrove]

actually they do make a mean washing machine , so a full frame sensor should be no problem :-) Seriously tho Lawrence thanks for the heads up, it would be certainly an interesting step for them as they dont have a professional imaging reputation at all yet

[Carmel Bruno]

Michael
You would have a point about not being in bed with Sony if nobody had ever been to the Band Pro website or visited in person. Everyone knows Band Pro as a Sony house. Why bother pretending otherwise. Its silly. Does it show bias? Yes. But everyone is biased, just be real about it.

People here (some are fanboys clearly) get excited as it seems RED has put the others into a forced form of expedited change. Is it exaggerated excitement?, sure.

I suppose the fact that "the CTO of Band Pro" actually purchased a RED One personally after being in bed with Sony at Band Pro for many many years is interesting in itself. With your extensive background in the field (especially with Sony) you must have a lot of faith in the RED One to fork down 20K+ on it. Not after it had been in the field for a few years. Not after the kinks had been worked out. Rather, to jump right in and buy Camera #54 (an early adopter). RED was so new and unknown. Yet it was innovative, inexpensive, and had the ability to deliver quality on par or better than others. Maybe you are more of a believer than you portray. Or maybe you just have money to burn. Maybe you wanted to see what it can do in order to sell against it. I can't think of any CTO's or owners of rental houses who actually own a camera better than a AG-HVX200 outside of maybe the Clairmont brothers.

What was your motivation to buy??? And so early on?

personally, I always thought that one of the first buyers of the Red camera would be Sony... just to see how it works.

[Alex.Mitchell]

since when did samsung make anything pro?... no really?? what have they ever made thats in any way professional? monitors? nope even 2/3' semi pro video cams? nope hmmm well im sure if they do it will be firmly a 'video camera' as they have zero 'film' based mindset.

Look: I like Red. I like Jim. Red is cool. Jim is Cool! So don't get me wrong when I say this, but if someone can go from making sunglasses to making some of the best cameras in the biz, why couldn't Samsung? Let's face it: pretty much everyone owns a piece of electronics that Samsung has designed, so why put it past them? I doubt they'd do it, but after Red shipped those first cameras I'm having a hard time doubting much anymore.

[LawrenceDinkins]

personally, I always thought that one of the first buyers of the Red camera would be Sony... just to see how it works.

From people on the inside, I can tell you for sure, Sony never even considered RED to be a real anything. Sony has over 50 years of R&D in the video camera and broadcast business. They have all the technology that there is and patents to show for it. There is nothing in RED that Sony is eager to find. (Only thing they might want to reverse engineer is Jim's brain.)

RED does not use any unique or novel technology. Only thing Unique about RED is Jim's decision to put together a 4K, PL mount camera and market it through internet for $17K. Jim put his marketing savvy to work. That is all. (This is obviously an over simplification. Jim is a great businessman with enough personal knowledge of the technology.)

Sony or Panasonic or Canon could just as easily put together 4K, PL mount camera. But, they cannot market it for $17K because of several layers of middlemen. Also, they use controlled obsolecence: the same principle used by Big Three car companies to gradually introduce the new technology to maximise their product life and profitability. They will not bring forward an improved model until they have sold a fixed number of the previous model. Also, Sony bring forth fully tested products along with full range of accessories. For example, Sony will sell a camera with all accessories and software for video capture, edit, broad cast and display. On the other hand, RED sell only a camera body. Buyers will have to find everything else on their own.

Jim has boldly introduced his cheap cameras now and challenged Big Three in the Vido camera business. The Big Three cannot change their ways in a hurry to compete with RED. They are going to pay a big price for it in the market place. Just like IBM paid a big price when they under estimated the threat from Apple computer which was put together in a garage by Steve Jobs and company, using then available parts.

Jim is selling more cameras than all the other companies combined. That is why it is called a paradigm changing camera. At this rate every DP in the world will have a RED within 2 years. During that period, hopefully a 4k post workflow also will evolve.

Sony has already fabricated and tested super 35 and 65 mm size sensors, in 4k, 8K and even 16K versions and they already have developed several prototypes of movie cameras. But, they have no plans to bring a 4K-PL mount-$17K camera to market, as of today (apparently because 4K post work flow is not popular). They will definitely regret this. (F35 is using 2K compressed recording on tape, to be compatible with movie making folks and post houses.).

Within a few years, you will see the rise of RED as de facto standard in movie making.

Sony will continue to be king of the consumer market (for example EX1 and EX3) and broadcast market. Look, the entire Summer Olympics is going to be broadcast using Sony equipment. Sony has very specialized high power video cameras for sports events. Nobody can compete with them. You have seen how well these Sonys work during the European football matches: superior HD picture quality, fast replays, simultaneous broad view and closeup; clean slow motion replays; automatic continuous focus on the ball etc.

[Gunleik Groven]

My guess is that there is a three letter reason Sony all of a sudden is showing off F35 @ IBC 2008 and not @ IBC 2011.

That said, I don't think their cameradivision is sleeping bad at all. Broadcast is their mass market, and even though RED may penetrate that market, too - it won't take it over in the same way as they are doing with digital cinema cameras. The big change will come with Scarlet... @ least if they introduce an "easy as DV" workflow with it.

That's when Sony and Panasonic may see some hard hittin' on their sales statistics.

Just my 300000 cents

This is not to start a discussion about RED ONE as a broadcast camera...

[Daniel Browning]

RED does not use any unique or novel technology. Only thing Unique about RED is Jim's decision to put together a 4K, PL mount camera and market it through internet for $17K. Jim put his marketing savvy to work. That is all.

Yes! I can't believe there are so many here who have missed such an obvious fact. Jim clearly just slapped together a few off-the-shelf components. Where others were selling them for hundreds of thousands of dollars (silly corporations), Jim waved his Marketing Wand (TM) and combined it with the power of the intarweb net-tubes (Magically Delicious) to build it for $17K.

I could have built this camera for $7K in my sleep. Just look at how easy these features are.

* APS-C (Super35) at 30fps: others did it for over six figures.
* 4K (9.5 MP) resolution: DALSA, etc. for over six figures.
* 100fps at 2/3": Phantom can top that, again, for the big bucks.
* RAW 4K recording: Haul a refigerator around with your Origin, sure.
* RAW Wavelet: SI-2K+Cineform only does 2K. REDCODE is awesome.
* Record 288+ mbps to 16 GB compact flash.
* Modular: Any Lens mount. Sensor upgrades. Probably been done before.
* High sensitivity, low noise, good dynamic range: Sony has it for $150k.
* Inexpensive accessories: lenses, media, etc. Maybe not the first here.
* Free RAW post-production software: Probably been done before.
* 4-channel 24-bit audio: Many have that.
* World-class support: Talk to the billionaire owner at 3:00 AM.
* Small, lightweight, and single-person operation.

[Tom Lowe]

Your point is well made, but just FYI, Sony's been losing money hand over fist on the PS3. The PS3 MIGHT break even or turn a profit this year, if things go really well for them...

Not to mention the hundreds of millions they spent to bribe the studios into adopting Blu-Ray.

I don't see how they make all this back in the long run, but maybe they just really did NOT want to lose another epic format war.

[Joseph Hutson]

LOSERS!!!! 3 cheers for RED hip, hip, hooray...hip, hip hooray. I just love Red...did I only do two cheers? HIP, HIP, HOORAY!!!:clown2:

[oldphart]

Not to mention the hundreds of millions they spent to bribe the studios into adopting Blu-Ray.

I don't see how they make all this back in the long run, but maybe they just really did NOT want to lose another epic format war.

Most analysts have overestimated the cost of building a PS3 because they have used the prices another company would have had to pay for the parts. Sony make most of the parts needed to make the PS3, so it is just an accounting exersize to assign the loss to one division and the profit to another. Most of the components have a high initial cost but a low variable per-unit cost, and it is difficult to se who Sony could have sold all those blue lasers and special-purpose ICs to if they had not used them in-house.

That said, I guess I am one of those they will never make a profit from. My PS3 works as a Linux numbercruncher, and I will never buy a single game for it.

[Harva Raj]

watched some 'Knowing' clips in Entertainment Tonight. Looked really good. but why some people say that Red footage will not look good in broadcast or SD? why does the footage from same camera system have very different image quality? that begs a question, have we truly unlocked the secret of 'superior image quality' of 'studio films' ?

[Jason Wingrove]

Presume you've seen or someone has linked to the trailer?
looks pretty good to me!
jas

http://tinyurl.com/57mxrt

_

[Harva Raj]

RED footage does look good both in web and broadcast. But why, when WE shoot on RED, it looks good only on web and not broadcast?

(i am referring to 'Black in America' Footage in CNN VS 'Knowing' clips in ET)

[Kenn Michael]

The difference is in the coloring and grading. Which is the same reason that expensive music videos seem to 'look' better than some of the indie ones even if being shot on 35mm. Yes, art direction, makeup and cinematography are the backbone, but the job of the colorist is the polish and the finish.

[RyanKunkleman]

boy, has this thread ever gotten off-topic.... :ranting2:
maybe I'm just up to my ears in "Knowing" rushes and jump anytime I see the word in my emails :mail1:

who are you working for? Park Road?

[Harva Raj]

The difference is in the coloring and grading. Which is the same reason that expensive music videos seem to 'look' better than some of the indie ones even if being shot on 35mm. Yes, art direction, makeup and cinematography are the backbone, but the job of the colorist is the polish and the finish.

There is 'some other things', other than color grading which contributing to the 'expensive look'.

if you would research about making of bollywood or chinese movies, they are pretty much same as hollywood. shoot in 35mm, grade in da Vinci then out put in 35mm again. but, if compared, the image quality is far more superior in hollywood movies.

even if we shoot 4k with the best optics and grade in best DI software, we will never come close to 'studio movie' look.

[Kenn Michael]

what are those 'other things'?

[Harva Raj]

what are those 'other things'?

that is a million dollar question! (which i don't have the answer)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

what are those 'other things'?


I second that question? :shiftyph34r:

[Harva Raj]

i don't know. might be a little node in shake that somehow transforms clips into 'glossy' look when outputting.

it got to be something to do with post workflow. some settings. some settings!

[Kenn Michael]

I've been there sky1walker... It's in the coloring. Glossy happens in the coloring. Lighting is what makes glossy possible, but the actual glossy work happens with the colorist.

You ever see deleted scenes from big movies on DVD extras? Even the big budget stuff - looks pretty 'normal'. After a great transfer from the 35mm neg, coloring and a great sound mix. Boom, Hollywood.

[Harva Raj]

After a great transfer from the 35mm neg, coloring and a great sound mix. Boom, Hollywood.


or is it the method of transfer? when the 'studio films' release trailers to SD or HD Broadcast do they transfer in a high quality D5 tapes, where indie films don't have a resource to transfer in D5, hence the 'low quality' look?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I've been there sky1walker... It's in the coloring. Glossy happens in the coloring. Lighting is what makes glossy possible, but the actual glossy work happens with the colorist.

You ever see deleted scenes from big movies on DVD extras? Even the big budget stuff - looks pretty 'normal'. After a great transfer from the 35mm neg, coloring and a great sound mix. Boom, Hollywood.


I truly hope that the colorist him\herself matters more than the software these days...

Yes? :innocent:

[Kenn Michael]

Of course! :)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

YuPee! :)

[Harva Raj]

Of course! :)

Prove?

[Kenn Michael]

You can have the best software/hardware money can buy, but if you don't have the eye for color, contrast, tone - then the tools don't matter.

The colorist is just as much of an artist as a DP or composer, etc...

I don't know where you're located sky1walker, but try to sit in on a high-end coloring session. It'll amaze you what the raw footage looks like vs. the finished product.

[Noah Kadner]

Tiny mention of RED and Knowing over at Dark Horizons:

http://www.darkhorizons.com/interviews/proyask.php


Question: How gratifying was it not only to see the director's cut of Dark City, but to see it in that format?

Proyas: Oh, well, it's amazing. I mean, we shot "Knowing" on these cameras, or these red cameras, these 4K digital cameras - the first time I actually shot digital. And it was great. I mean, they really are - the look of the film is fabulous. I was very excited by that. But, you know, it's terrific that we can - in our own homes now, we can play something that - off Blu-Ray, or whatever - that really closely approximates what the film actually - the quality of the film that was made.

Question: Was it a budgetary decision?

Proyas: It wasn't, no. I mean, I kind of - we pretended that it was. But in fact, it probably actually cost us a little more when it was all said and done, because the shooting is obviously - you don't have film stock to pay for, but the editorial pipeline and the effects pipeline is so much more complicated. Because we're still working it all out. That the level of complexity built in, and the extra people that we've needed to make it all work, probably in the long run was a wash, you know? But it's the way. I mean, we have to solve these problems, because it is the way it's all going. So it's just the way we do it. So we decided to bite the bullet and go for it.

-Noah

[LawrenceDinkins]

Question: Was it a budgetary decision?

Proyas: It wasn't, no. I mean, I kind of - we pretended that it was. But in fact, it probably actually cost us a little more when it was all said and done, because the shooting is obviously - you don't have film stock to pay for, but the editorial pipeline and the effects pipeline is so much more complicated. Because we're still working it all out. That the level of complexity built in, and the extra people that we've needed to make it all work, probably in the long run was a wash, you know?
-Noah

If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.

[Craig Schober]

If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.

these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys.

expense is rarely in post. so long as productions are star driven, expense will always reside on the production side. a big studio doesn't care about film stock savings just like they don't care about small post workflow savings or added expenses. like he said, right now it's a wash either way because there's no difference between a $75 million budget and $76 million budget.

[Chris Swinbanks]

these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys..Maybe at some levels, but.... geee... sorry, this is just so far "out of the ball park" in this case... I'm sure a few of the smarter DOPs who read these threads are just shaking their heads in disbelief...
I felt moved to comment on this because I've only just sat in an early test film screening with "these guys" this afternoon... they know film, and they are understanding RED, and they are happy...

[Noah Kadner]

Maybe at some levels, but.... geee... sorry, this is just so far "out of the ball park" in this case... I'm sure a few of the smarter DOPs who read these threads are just shaking their heads in disbelief...
I felt moved to comment on this because I've only just sat in an early test film screening with "these guys" this afternoon... they know film, and they are understanding RED, and they are happy...


Couldn't agree more- crappy lighting is all the more painfully obvious in 4K as it is in DV. No excuses for it and if anything in 5 years lighting skills will be even more key because everything will be shot on 4K or better and the novelty of actually having a RED and knowing something about the workflow will be meaningless. Talent is talent.

Noah

[Andrew Martin]

There is an interview with the director on Sci-Fi.com filmed at Comicon

http://video.scifi.com/player/?id=282024#videoid=279417

He talks about the film and there are a few clips, but only what we have seen so far.

Andrew.

[ninjaleprechaun]

Here's the trailer in 720p

http://www.hd-trailers.net/blog/2008/07/28/knowing-trailer/

[Todd M.]

these guys went with red because they wanted the experience and didn't want to get left behind as productions go digital. it won't matter how great you are at lighting and working with traditional film about 5 years from now. digital workflows will be mature and fast enough to create some savings and cost concerns will mean that the guys with experience on cams like red will win jobs over old school guys.

expense is rarely in post. so long as productions are star driven, expense will always reside on the production side. a big studio doesn't care about film stock savings just like they don't care about small post workflow savings or added expenses. like he said, right now it's a wash either way because there's no difference between a $75 million budget and $76 million budget.

Following on from this and some earlier posts in this thread, I figured I would add my .02

I think the true transition to digital acquisition mediums will really come when the studios themselves are convinced that the quality is on par with film. When it comes to studio produced features, I have always found that familiarity, understanding and proven reliability is the single biggest argument for continuing to shoot with film (even if these aren't as clearly stated in that argument as they are here). You have to remember that the vast majority of theatrical features are financed and greenlit, by studios who ultimately want to ensure the financial success of the picture and don't want any added risk, like that of new "unproven" technology. These same people are the ones writing the Directors and DP's paychecks and there are very few Directors and DP's powerful enough to fight against the studio's wishes, which is why it's only big names like Fincher, Soderburgh (only on his small budget pics), Lucas, etc. who get to play with these new toys on the studio's dime.

RED is a fantastic step forward and could be the product that through mass adoption legitimizes the format in the studio's eyes. But outside of the indie realm, right now there are way too many dollars being spent and made off the traditional and entrenched players for a very swift transition away from the status quo.

[Michel Hafner]

Question: How gratifying was it not only to see the director's cut of Dark City, but to see it in that format?
Proyas: Oh, well, it's amazing. I mean, we shot "Knowing" on these cameras, or these red cameras, these 4K digital cameras - the first time I actually shot digital. And it was great. I mean, they really are - the look of the film is fabulous. I was very excited by that. But, you know, it's terrific that we can - in our own homes now, we can play something that - off Blu-Ray, or whatever - that really closely approximates what the film actually - the quality of the film that was made.

Well, have to disagree here. The BD of "Dark City" is a bad example for a BD that shows the film as it was made. I don't mean the recutting but the sharpening and the grain reduction. Now people walk around with white haloes and have waxy plastic faces. Looks awful.
(Addendum: Only parts of the transfer are processed like this, the rest looks fine.)

[Shawn Booth]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/knowing/hd/

[Antoine Fabi]

I love the image quality of Knowing! Superb job!

Antoine

[Rudi Herbert]

Just to add a little something, which has been said before many a time, but it is a quite different story when you see for YOURSELF what others have told you.

I saw the trailer for "Knowing" last night at the theater. A big, 60 ft/18m wide screen on a regular cineplex. I had seen it before on the Apple trailers where it looked good, as countless other RED footage has looked good on small screen versions, but it wasn't until last night I had a chance to see RED out there, in the real world, projected in the same medium, format and place it was ultimately meant for: a cinema. It was a pivotal point for me. The footage more than passed the test I had set up for it and put aside a lot of the fears I've had about things like REDCODE. It looked, plain and simple, like any other film would. And then better. It was clean, devoid of noise or grain (things I don't particularly like), the night time images had plenty of detail and no a lot of crushed blacks, and the daytime exteriors were vibrant, full of color and nice, very nice looking. Did it look like Lawrence of Arabia? No. But then again, many films shot on all kinds of stock never looked like that either, so for me, from this point on, the argument of whether RED can approximate or match or surpass film is irrelevant. You can use this camera to deliver a more than satisfactory result, one which will stand shoulder to shoulder to anything else, regardless of whether it is better or worse in certain aspects compared to other cameras. I was sold on the idea before, now I'm convinced.

Coincidentally, they also showed a trailer for "State of Fear", which is, I assume, a big production, featuring an ensemble with Russel Crowe, Ben Affleck, Helen Mirren, etc, which was shot on the Genesis. Now, the Genesis has produced some work that I particularly like, such as Apocalypto, but this trailer looked like it had been shot on Betacam. Skin tones were fluorescent pink and unreal, and the color patina and feel of the whole film felt way off to me. Which comes to show, once again, that it's all in how you manipulate the images after you acquire them where the make or break point really resides. RED looked better than anything else projected there that night.

[Jannard]

There is no question that "Knowing" will be a showcase for what can be done on RED. It makes the point that if you aren't getting good images out of a RED ONE, it just might not be the camera's fault. :-)

Jim

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

Yeah, I saw the trailer on a big cinema screen and agree... it looked like any other film acquired on "film".

Which is good as it blends into the accepted "look" of what we expect (and like) from Hollywood mainstream cinema.

Benjamin Button had the same feeling for me... it looks really amazing... like film. Whatever the post workflow for the Viper (that Fincher uses on his films) is really good and produces filmic images.

[Antoine Fabi]

Good to hear Rudy.
Thanks for the report.
When it looks good on the big screen, then...no doubt...IT'S GOOD.
Can't wait to see it !


...and i must admit that having this very same cinema camera here is even more impressive :)

Antoine

[Jan Reiff]

does anyone know which lenses were used for "knowing"?

[Andrae Palmer]

does anyone know which lenses were used for "knowing"?

Angenieux 24-290. Judging by production pic it looks like an entire set of Angenieuxs.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

red is much much cheaper than shooting film.. anyone who pays an abnormal amount for post is getting taken for a ride.

[Jaime Vallés]

Saw the trailer for Knowing the other day at an IMAX screen in Times Square. Looks absolutely incredible. I agree with Rudi, the RED footage was better than anything else projected that night!

[J. Eric Camp]

If RED does not save any money over film, why go with RED? Expense is obviously in the post.
That explains why Sony is hesitant to introduce 4K cameras, until 4K workflow is ironed out.

The director was referring to this particular production. An existing company with existing money invested in existing pipelines took on the effect heavy post for this entirely RED feature. They had to get consultants, buy new gear and software, take a few swings to figure out where the ball is. Thats how it "was a wash." Change is hard and costs money. Once you change though...

[Chris Swinbanks]

An existing company with existing money invested in existing pipelines took on the effect heavy post for this entirely RED feature. They had to get consultants, buy new gear and software, take a few swings to figure out where the ball is. Thats how it "was a wash." There's a couple of groups involved in post, all with significant feature b/g.
Edit had to define a process at the start, but got their setups worked out pretty quickly. From what I observed having a DIT familiar with RED on a project already was a big help in prep for edit.
FX, we had to make some adjustments for the fx pipeline to deal with r3d files and cross-facility processes, but the basics (equipment, tools, renderfarm, viewing environments etc) were already in place, and likewise the DI facilities' grading is being done on existing kit also.
Not so sure about the "new gear, software and consultants"... well, we all had to download redcine/redalert etc and work out how to understand and fit this new format into existing "film" workflows fairly quickly.... but that was happening anyway, much as I presume it was for most existing post houses.
It's been an interesting project that reflects the amount, and value, of communication that needs to take place between facilities, when several are working together on a large production.

Hopefully the end product speaks for itself.



cheers
Chris

[AntonyCASAFilms]

Not seen it mentioned yet.

The April 2009 issue of American Cinematographer magazine will have an article about the use of the Red camera in Knowing. To quote:

"Simon Duggan, ACS uses the Red One camera to shoot this mindbending action thriller directoed by Alex Proyas (The Crow, Dark City, I, Robot) about a teacher (Nicolas Cage) who opens a time capsule that reveals terrifying predictions about the future. Duggan will offer his thoughts on the Red camera's performance on the big-budget production, which shot at various locations in Australia."

[J. Eric Camp]

There's a couple of groups involved in post, all with significant feature b/g.
Edit had to define a process at the start, but got their setups worked out pretty quickly. From what I observed having a DIT familiar with RED on a project already was a big help in prep for edit.
FX, we had to make some adjustments for the fx pipeline to deal with r3d files and cross-facility processes, but the basics (equipment, tools, renderfarm, viewing environments etc) were already in place, and likewise the DI facilities' grading is being done on existing kit also.
Not so sure about the "new gear, software and consultants"... well, we all had to download redcine/redalert etc and work out how to understand and fit this new format into existing "film" workflows fairly quickly.... but that was happening anyway, much as I presume it was for most existing post houses.
It's been an interesting project that reflects the amount, and value, of communication that needs to take place between facilities, when several are working together on a large production.

Hopefully the end product speaks for itself.



cheers
Chris

It does indeed. I guess I made a few assumptions about the directors comments.

[Joe G.]

I finally saw the trailer for Knowing in the theater, at the screening of Slumdog Millionaire.

It was very quickly cut, and it looked like film to me. A few moments, though, the lighting on Cage's face looked a little plastic -- which I chalked up to pushing it around in post intentionally.

Then I saw Slumdog. The first half of the film was amazingly good. Then I started to keep noticing the plastic like effect on the face, especially of the lead character Jamal. In almost every scene, his face looked like it was overblown or something, and didn't have enough dynamic range on at least half his face. That started to bother me.

It seems like they didn't have to light it that way, and maybe it was bad lighting (or good, depending if you like it). Some more intimate closeups looked like better color in the face. But many were this odd creamy, all similar colors type look. It bugged me, more and more.

I heard this was a SI-2K camera. Is this right? The camera looks like it has a lot of potential, but I wouldn't light faces the way they did for most of Jamal's scenes. I did not like the final product. I would hope that digital sensors can get away from that look and be more filmic. Probably with more subtle lighting they can. Being in a television studio setting, however, it may be harder to have subtlety on the subject.

Anyone else notice these things and think about them?

[John Caballero]

Did the person next to you had the same technical reaction to the film as you?

[Rudi Herbert]

Here's Alex Proyas, director of Knowing, talking about RED on an interview:

And shooting with the Red One camera. How was that?

Proyas: "It was great. There was a huge learning curve. We were one of the first films to use it on such a scale, and we had quite a few of them on the production. But it is really the future. There's no going back for me now. It was my first digital film, and this particular camera is quite extraordinary; they're improving them all the time. My next film I'm going to be shooting on this camera called the Epic, which is the next generation. It's a 5K camera, so it's a step up again in resolution. I love clarity in an image. I'm a big fan of films shot in 70mm and being projected in 70mm - and all the large formats. So this film, digitally projected, looks extraordinary. There is no grain. It's got a clarity. You feel like you could reach out and touch the actors or step into the scene; it's almost a three-dimensional quality. I'm completely hooked on the format."

[Benni Diez]

The whole interview here:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39986

[Dan Sturm]

Just saw the trailer on MTV. It looks amazing.

[Tim Whitcomb]

I finally saw the trailer for Knowing in the theater, at the screening of Slumdog Millionaire.

Anyone else notice these things and think about them?

sorry, I was so caught up in what I thought was a fantastic story and
incredible acting... and an amazing cultural experience, that I did
not have time to "nit pick" what I thought was an incredibly shot and
masterfully made film.

not to mention, 10 Oscar Nods seem to support my claim

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I heard this was a SI-2K camera. Is this right? The camera looks like it has a lot of potential, but I wouldn't light faces the way they did for most of Jamal's scenes. I did not like the final product. I would hope that digital sensors can get away from that look and be more filmic. Probably with more subtle lighting they can. Being in a television studio setting, however, it may be harder to have subtlety on the subject.

Anyone else notice these things and think about them?

It was a mixture of 35mm and the SI-2K, so maybe the shots you describe were shot on 35mm... nobody knows, only the filmmakers do.

I read in an interview somewhere that they shot most of the close-ups on 35mm and the "kinetic street stuff" on the SI-2K, but not all the time...

[Jerrod Cordell]

It was a mixture of 35mm and the SI-2K, so maybe the shots you describe were shot on 35mm... nobody knows, only the filmmakers do.

I read in an interview somewhere that they shot most of the close-ups on 35mm and the "kinetic street stuff" on the SI-2K, but not all the time...

I think sometimes its a psychological thing. You hear its shot digitally and you notice all of the flaws in the picture quality. Then you find out most of it was shot on film and you feel retarded.

[Kingslea Bueltel]

I saw the trailer for "Knowing" last night at the theater. A big, 60 ft/18m wide screen on a regular cineplex. I had seen it before on the Apple trailers where it looked good, as countless other RED footage has looked good on small screen versions, but it wasn't until last night I had a chance to see RED out there, in the real world, projected in the same medium, format and place it was ultimately meant for: a cinema. It was a pivotal point for me.

Coincidentally, they also showed a trailer for "State of Fear", which is, I assume, a big production, featuring an ensemble with Russel Crowe, Ben Affleck, Helen Mirren, etc, which was shot on the Genesis. Now, the Genesis has produced some work that I particularly like, such as Apocalypto, but this trailer looked like it had been shot on Betacam. Skin tones were fluorescent pink and unreal, and the color patina and feel of the whole film felt way off to me. Which comes to show, once again, that it's all in how you manipulate the images after you acquire them where the make or break point really resides. RED looked better than anything else projected there that night.

I'm in total agreement! Both trailers ran before "Taken" (Liam's a badass, folks. Seriously.), and "Knowing" looked breathtaking on the big screen. The Affleck one, eh, not so much. The "Knowing" action sequences and effects are pretty amazing; the low light scenes look beautiful and deep. The filmmakers did a fantastic job with the RED. I'm so excited to see it!

[Chris Swinbanks]

... saw the end product last night... on film.... :tongue:
not too bad.

[Bing Bailey]

how long before RED One shot film wins an oscar, I'll wager 100 dollars it'll be within the next 2 years

[Jaime Vallés]

how long before RED One shot film wins an oscar, I'll wager 100 dollars it'll be within the next 2 years
Do you mean any Oscar award? Or specifically Best Cinematography? or Best Picture?

[Tim Hole]

how long before RED One shot film wins an oscar, I'll wager 100 dollars it'll be within the next 2 years

It'll be two years and it will be a suspense thriller...sorry someone had to do it! If I win I'll buy you a Fixed Lens Scarlet...thats how optimistic I am!

[Jannard]

... saw the end product last night... on film.... :tongue:
not too bad.

Simon Duggan (cinematographer of "Knowing") told me yesterday that it was too bad it had to be shown on film... looked so much better/cleaner 4K digital... I hope he is OK with me sharing that. :-)

Jim

[Chris Swinbanks]

...after seeing the fx develop in digital screenings over the past months, it was interesting to see the translation to film, coupled with the final grade.
It held up pretty well..... apart from all the crap over the first reel, which was either pos print grime from the soup, or synch marks from the neg getting stressed somewhere... I like to think it is only in the pos print I saw.
Dark scenes held together nicely, and there's plenty of them.

[Jannard]

...after seeing the fx develop in digital screenings over the past months, it was interesting to see the translation to film, coupled with the final grade.
It held up pretty well..... apart from all the crap over the first reel, which was either pos print grime from the soup, or synch marks from the neg getting stressed somewhere... I like to think it is only in the pos print I saw.
Dark scenes held together nicely, and there's plenty of them.

One thing I had forgotten was that almost the entire movie was shot on Build 15. (Reminder- Build 16 was the "monumental build"...)

Jim

[Petr Dvorak]

on Build 15 - that's interesting

[Mike Seymour]

It looked great last night Chris on the big screen.

Congrats to you and the whole team at Animal.
The footage was stunning and I really enjoyed the film.

Mike

[Jannard]

I have been corrected behind the scenes... "Knowing" film prints were from a 2K file. Even more impressive.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

I have been corrected behind the scenes... "Knowing" film prints were from a 2K file. Even more impressive.

Jim

Holy crap, that's awesome!!

I still remember being at your warehouse/lair a year or so ago and seeing PJs footage being projected 2k and standing close and realizing that my eyes would get blurry and overloaded from being so close before I could see pixels from the 2k! After that, I don't get the fascination with more pixels. I'm now just about latitude and frame rate :-)

[Peter Majtan]

I keep saying that over 95% of features go through 2K DI or less, not 4K...

:) Peter

[Chris Swinbanks]

Correct. Shot build 15 (for the most part), 2k finish. Great DI grade from Park Road Post. Looking forward to Simon Duggan's article when its done.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I'm very happy that "Knowing" is opening soon in theaters with a hope that should finally

"help" and "accelerate" broader use of RED1 in Hollywood mainstream productions.

My prediction is that "Knowing" is going to be the box office in its opening week too.

BTW, also I'm proud that with my RED kit I can make a similar picture quality

that was shawn in "Knowing" trailer(s).

Please have a look at the pictures below to compare:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/knowing_botanical1.jpg
The picture taken from "Knowing" trailer, shot on RED1, lens unknown...

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/knowing_botanical2.jpg
Shot on RED1 last Fall at Vienna Botanical Garden Belvedere, lens Nikon 17-35mm, f/4, 320 ASA, resized and

cropped from 4K to 1920x800 (HD widescreen), Camera RGB RED Log out CC in Apple Color and Sapphire Film Effects plug in for FCP.

[Maria Costa]

One thing I had forgotten was that almost the entire movie was shot on Build 15. (Reminder- Build 16 was the "monumental build"...)

JimUncompressed? Or apart VFX, using Redcode compression in a hundred per cent?

[J. Eric Camp]

Uncompressed? Or apart VFX, using Redcode compression in a hundred per cent?

The entire movie was shot on the RED one camera, and the red one camera only shoots with redcode compression.

We did switch to build 16 for the second unit work, but only that.

[Antoine Fabi]

Simon Duggan (cinematographer of "Knowing") told me yesterday that it was too bad it had to be shown on film... looked so much better/cleaner 4K digital... I hope he is OK with me sharing that. :-)

Jim

I've never seen a 35mm projection that looks as good or close to a pristine 4K projection.
It's a new look we'll get accustomed to more and more.
Then...it will become the reference.

As you'd say Jim, things will change... :)

Antoine

[Stephen Williams]

Simon Duggan (cinematographer of "Knowing") told me yesterday that it was too bad it had to be shown on film... looked so much better/cleaner 4K digital... I hope he is OK with me sharing that. :-)

Jim

Hi Jim,

Hardly a suprise, film also looks better if it does not go through a DI & transfreed back to film.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi Jim,

Hardly a suprise, film also looks better if it does not go through a DI & transfreed back to film.

Stephen


Hi Stephen,

don't forget that BRD (Blu{e}-Ray Disk) of "BARAKA" (shot with Todd-AO 65 mm or 70 mm, restoration and DI in 4K)

looks much better than BRD of "There Will Be Blood" (shot and cut on film) that didn't have any DI.

[Tim Hole]

It is an alternative camera that speaks to alternative filmmakers...Steven Soderbergh and Alex Proyas to name two...Proyas has made two of my favourite films - being The Crow and Dark City and he has a defined visual style that lends well to the RED. Next up David Lynch...he's already in the digital mind with the PD-150, won't be long before he picks up a Scarlet! Who next in the big leagues...Peter Jackson? Ridley Scott? Michael Mann?

[Jerrod Cordell]

I'm very happy that "Knowing" is opening soon in theaters with a hope that should finally

"help" and "accelerate" broader use of RED1 in Hollywood mainstream productions.

My prediction is that "Knowing" is going to be the box office in its opening week too.



Definitely. This movie has been advertised like hell on Myspace for the past few months, so you know its gonna rake in a lot of the teenagers.

[Tim Hole]

It might do really well, I think it will do moderately well and last for a good few weeks. At the moment Slum Dog is still king, Benjamin Button didn't do too well at box office surprisingly/not surprisingly and Gran Torino is doing very well at the moment.

[Luis Otero]

Just came back from watching "Knowing" here in Orlando (sneak preview). I am so amazed about the quality of the footage the "scam" called Red One can achieve...!!!

[George Wilcox]

100% Shot on RED... Nicholas Cage movie.

Jim

Those who know, know that they know. Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know.

[David M]

Those who know, know that they know. Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know.

Well...I don't know about that...
Or maybe I do...
I used to be infallible...I think....
Or maybe not.
Look forward to seeing the movie anyway.

[Luis Otero]

Just came back from watching "Knowing" here in Orlando (sneak preview). I am so amazed about the quality of the footage the "scam" called Red One can achieve...!!!

Storyline aside (this is very subjective), the images do not look like video at all, but was not a typical film look. This has been discussed many times before: this is a completely new breed that must be judged by its own merits, and not to be compared with other mediums.

All the comments, specially from film school students present, were very positive, and discused with a proper open view attitude, knowing that we are in a new era in cinematography, which they are part of, and will have a lot of influence on their point of reference when evaluating the images being produced with such new breed. Veryinteresting... and beautiful images.

[Robert Sanders]

It really looks like a good film. Can't wait to see it.

However, people right now don't want to see dark or nihilistic movies right now. They want pure escapism. I'm not sure people will flock to this movie. Not right now anyway.

[Josh Negrin]

hmmm... regardless of what it was shot on, it stands at a 27% on rottentomatoes.com and I don't know why, but making a bad movie seems to hurt ticket sales. Exception to the rule though, last years "Hancock" had a low tomato score but a lot of people saw it. Personally I want to see "Knowing" because I'm into these kinds of movies and I like that they shot on the RED.

[temsi]

Roger Ebert gave it 4/4 stars, and says it's one of the best sci-fi films he's seen - and compares it to Dark City.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm going to see it this weekend I think... I mostly want to see it because it was shot on RED. The original trailer had me completely disinterested. The newer trailer is a lot more appealing and has me wanting to see it for more than just it's shot on RED origin.

[Michel Hafner]

Critics mostly hate it. Roger is pretty alone...
But they hated "Blade Runner" too and thought little of "Vertigo", so what do they know?
:)

[Sanjin Jukic]

What is your top choice to see this weekend (Mar. 20-22)?

24.9% Knowing
22.1% I Love You, Man
13.9% Watchmen
12.1% Duplicity
11.1% No interest this weekend.
3.8% Race to Witch Mountain
2.7% Taken
2.0% The Last House on the Left
1.9% Coraline
1.8% Slumdog Millionaire
1.6% Other

LINK>>> (http://boxofficemojo.com/)

[HD Bubaloo]

Hi Jim and Jarred, Wired magazine online had some great quotes from Alex Proyas about RED. Here is the link.

http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2009/03/knowing-directo.html

[Emanuel A.]

I'm going to see it this weekend I think... I mostly want to see it because it was shot on RED. The original trailer had me completely disinterested. The newer trailer is a lot more appealing and has me wanting to see it for more than just it's shot on RED origin.Jeff,

Same here for Che, seen two days ago. As I could have the opportunity to write elsewhere*, the RED ONE performance, as big screen experience, is beyond the initial expectations of more than one RED ONE reservation holder(s) from day one.

E. :-)

[Joel J. Feigenbaum]

Variety's review today mentions that KNOWING was shot on a RED ONE. Whether the reviews for the film are good, bad or indifferent, RED has arrived squarely on the mainstream cinema map.

[PatC]

I will be seeing it tonight. I am very happy with the constant progress of RED.

[Christian Munoz D]

I saw the movie yesterday and I must say the most exiting moment was to see the "Shot on Red" logo at the end credits!!!

The movie looks great!!!

[Roxco]

Those who know, know that they know. Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know.

You will See = Unconsciously Competent

See and See = Consciously Competent

Don't See Me = Consciously Incompetent

It's You & Me = Unconsciously Incompetent

Avoid that last person as they will drain you dry, but do realize they may be competent in other areas. And there are many areas where we are not competent.

Rosco

P.S. "Hey kid with P.H.D. in Psych make sure those fries are a fresh batch!"

[Andrew Walker]

I just saw "Knowing" and at first all I was doing was examining the picture, which looked really good. But then I got interested in the story and the visuals. I might go see it again if I have the time. I would really like to see it digitally projected next time if I could. The story kind of made me feel this sense of helplessness. But I really enjoyed the movie and the sound design.

[Mark Phelan]

Just came back from seeing the movie projected in Georgia's only all 4K theater at The Avenue Forsyth. They are only projecting things in 2K as of now, from what I understand. Looked like a nice, clean image that I would compare very readily to film in the softness of the quality. No grain, no noise in the shadows, anywhere. Also, I kept looking for a purple sun or hot light, but didn't see any. Also, no skewing. Basically, seemed just like a regular movie.

I don't think I'll comment on the movie itself, since I went there looking to see what it would look like "knowing" it was shot on RED. Technically, yes, RED has proven itself very, very capable.

[David Tragger]

Having just come back from a digitally projected screening here in Orlando I was very impressed with what had been accomplished and the VFX shots were simply astonishing. I know several individuals have chimed in here while this film was in post productions but I would love to hear new news about the hurdles, software, individuals, lenses other accessories that made this film come to fruition. The story is interesting all by itself but the technology (and people behind it on this film) that captured this story are the true warriors here with many tails I'm sure to tell about the process... That is unless they are all on long sabbaticals from exhaustion as I'm sure there were a few bumps in the road along the way.

Mainly coming from and audio background I have found it very interesting that the Film/Digital cinema is right were analog/digital audio were five years ago. Several heated debates from two camps at AES conventions over old school vs new and better vs best. Now here we are years later with our ProTools HD rigs and 2" tapes collecting dust and not much debate, just nostalgia. Giving this new digital cinema technology and enough time I feel it will be the same revolution when mono went to 2-channel stereo... and then later on mixed and managed properly (here's to hoping the loudness wars don't translate into contrast wars and higher sample rates don't translate to greater resolution and bit depths led by marketing and not by technical merit :P).

Fun times ahead! :)

[R. Schorman]

Just saw it as well, film projected. Looked great and no noise plus the VFX were amazing and incredibly gnarly compared to other movies.

Aside from looking great, the movie was way better than critics said. Its also funny to think that I was probably the only one in the theater that knew it was "Shot on Red."

[Kyle Presley]

What a beautiful film. Just got back from a 2K Christie projection. it was lovely. It looked better aesthetically than any "film" I've seen. I love the RED look.

[ChrisLyon]

I'll comment on the film. Highlight below.

The blocking, soundtrack, and some of the acting reminded me of some of the more cheeky 50s sci-fi films that I love. So high score in that area. That said, some scenes will haunt my dreams for nights to come. Overall, the writing was horrible. I feel like maybe the writers somehow thought they were going to get Dakota Fanning to play the young boy because the dialogue was just way too over the top for someone his age. Dakota could have pulled it of 5 years ago, I'm sure. There were only a few scenes that feel really "directed" because the actors' performances were all over the page ranging from inclusive and dramatic to gut-wrenchingly awful. Nick Cage went from decently convincing to Bangkok Dangerous in a New York minute and it was extremely distracting. And, unfortunately, this mainly appears to be the director's inability to wrangle his acting performances and shoddy writing- the latter of which may have been salvageable had it kept that 50s sci-fi feel the whole time. I wonder if mentioning that these writers have been commissioned to rewrite The Birds for Michael Bay (producer) might turn the stomachs of some of you reading this. Even with those comments, this flick was SO much better than say... The Day The Earth Stood Still from earlier this year.

Onward to RED! I saw the movie projected on film which would have been fine save for the fact that our local cineplexes hire near-sighted folks to pull focus... so everything was soft. So, needless to say, I did not get to see Knowing in even half of its glory.

Somehow after all that I find that I have the same emotions about Knowing as I did the now-defunct TV show Jericho. In every regard it deserves a scathing review like Claudia Puig gave it in USATODAY this morning. But deep down... beneath the layers of the art cinephile that I have come to be... I enjoyed this film. I'll probably even buy it on Blu-ray.

[Daniel Browning]

I saw it on a 2K Christie projector at Cinetopia (http://www.cinetopiatheaters.com/). Visually fantastic. So much detail. It's a good showcase for the capability of the RED ONE.

[Joe Ferralli]

Just saw Knowing this afternoon (on film) and have to say I'm incredibly impressed. The theater we saw it in looked very dark though. The trailer I saw online had a vibrance of color that was not there in the theater. Can't tell if this was Proyas' artistic intent or dark from the projector. Can anyone else comment on this? With that being said, the low light capability was astonishing. The detail in the shadows was fantastic. Just wish we could have seen it digital. As for the storyline, I thought it was ok at best. The ending kind of ruined it for me but it's not the type of film I enjoy. But I have to recommend it just to see what this camera really can do. Good job Red.

[Phil Bates]

Yes, Joe, I saw it on film yesterday it felt dark to me. Like they had the gamma curve pulled down and de-saturated the colors.

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

[Chris Swinbanks]

... I would love to hear new news about the hurdles, software, individuals, lenses other accessories that made this film come to fruition. The story is interesting all by itself but the technology (and people behind it on this film) that captured this story are the true warriors here with many tails I'm sure to tell about the process... That is unless they are all on long sabbaticals from exhaustion as I'm sure there were a few bumps in the road along the way.Most are back from their sabbaticals.. no rest for the wicked.
Good write-up here on the fx: http://vfxworld.com/?atype=articles&id=3941
No in-depth info about handling the "Red" footage, but then the capture medium is not really the difficult part of the process... and that's the way it should be.
cheers
Chris

[Joe Ferralli]

Yes, Joe, I saw it on film yesterday it felt dark to me. Like they had the gamma curve pulled down and de-saturated the colors.

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

Hi Phil. Did you see it in digital? I just pulled out "The Crow" on DVD just to compare and that had a similar look/feel. The daytime shots, especially the scene where Cage is driving over the bridge into New York, looked very unsaturated. Personally, I love the look. Just curious if it was timed like that or a limitation of build 15.

[Troy Smith]

Does anyone Know if the footage in knowing in the past where they were putting the time capsule in the ground, was that shot in 2k, seemed softer, or just a post thing?

[Phil Bates]

Hi Phil. Did you see it in digital? I just pulled out "The Crow" on DVD just to compare and that had a similar look/feel. The daytime shots, especially the scene where Cage is driving over the bridge into New York, looked very unsaturated. Personally, I love the look. Just curious if it was timed like that or a limitation of build 15.

No I saw it on film. I thought the look emphasized the dark mood of the story, but I wonder what difference (if any) the digital version would have made.

Phil
http://www.artbeats.com

[Ralph B.]

I really liked the movie...
I loved the grade!
I loved the look!


I must say the most special moment I saw in the movie was the seeing that RED emblem in the credits. I know the establishment isn't crumbling into rubble, but I do see a teeny tiny teeny tiny little crack in the foundation.

RED DIGITAL CINEMA is coming...

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

RED... Not just One company.

An EPIC company.

:)

Anxious to check the movie too.

[Ryan Valle]

Somebody want to CAM the movie with their red to have a decent bootleg of it online? haha

I'm just joking. I have yet to still see the movie. It's surely something I will buy on blu-ray.

[patrickortman]

The movie looked fantastic. I am very impressed, and excited. Plus, it's nice to tell my new tv commercial client that "Oh yeah, we're shooting on the same system as the #1 movie in the USA".

[Todd M.]

we're shooting on the same system as the #1 movie in the USA".

Good point and a great achievement. If a movie shot on RED can be number one at the box-office, that should do a great deal to help convince the naysayers that the platform is legit.

Todd Makurath

[Emmanuel Lariviere]

Knowing featurette with some shots of the Red.

http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEFVHFGJc2NTJM

[C L Walker]

I just returned from my local multiplex where I saw, back-to-back, KNOWING, DUPLICITY and a trailer for PUBLIC ENEMIES in real world conditions. Leaving aside cinematic worth, all were presented in 35mm anamorphic, all looked "as good as they make 'em" to the casual eye. The devil is in the details, of course.

KNOWING - shot on red, mucho lighting and grip, plus (2K or 4k?) mucho cgi VFX. Speaking strictly of principal photography: Looked great, some skin tones in the house set seemed a bit green for my taste. Nice blacks, no noise. The light falls off suitably in every shot - some shots seemed to lack full dynamic range compared to what film would be doing, and I am speaking of creepy shadow "whisper people" in the kids' bedroom scene. Day exteriors in 1950s were given a treatment to seem softer, nostalgic-y than same set seem in present day, for contrast. Leaves probably changed color in DI to give Autumn look, that all seemed good. Highlights seemed DIFFERENT, not better or worse in day exteriors. (I wonder what the budget for silk leaves was?) Dynamic range in day exteriors seemed a bit less than film, imho. Didn't spot any Rolling Shutter issues with picket fences, etc. Int/ext (looking out) car shots on index bridge coming in to NYC seemed fine, but were probably green screen? Big aerials looked good too. The DPs goal was about two things: Nic Cage's face in medium close up and creating creepy apocalyptic mood. Lots and lots of "hero stands transfixed on edge of battlefield/canyon, etc" composite shots. One plot point is about sunlight, and the key dramatic scene is shot in an open garage door, with full sun hitting the two leads flat and low. It looked good, but maybe a little too blown-out for good skin tones/ depth to register best. I bet the first answer print looked better. CGI reverse shots make the whole movie seem plastic-y, but that's not the fault of the Red.

DUPLICITY - shot on panavision anamorphic, 2k Digital intermediate, if one is to trust IMDB tech specs ( always a gamble). Comparing clarity of close ups, the anamorphic and Digital Intermediate made Julia's eyelashes and skin tones degraded to the point of looking like some white silk stockings had been applied to the rear element of the portrait primes, which may have also been the case. In pure Hollywood terms, she is an "aging beauty." Her make-up was showing excessively at times. DPs focus - make things look slick and worldly, and make her look as good as possible. Travelogue and beauty shots glalore. Tons of BCUs and two shots w Clive Owen. If this is some sort of a baseline to judge the Red against, the Red did well. Better dynamic range from film but the 2K DI didn't do the film many favors in that department.

PUBLIC ENEMIES TRAILER
Hard to judge anything, no shot stays on screen very long. Seemed to have less dynamic range than either, but also has an intentional period desaturated gloomy depression look, so it's difficult to make any judgements. No artifacts seen. Muzzle flashes seem like film. Of the three, it seemed to have the least amount of detail/ resolution.

For comparison's sake I'd hazard a guess that between these apples and oranges the Red One can compete with Panavision, and is a worthy tool. Both methods were good for the job at hand. PUBLIC ENEMIES may not look as good as one would hope. Certainly MIAMI VICE does not bode well for PE. MV looked awful, imho.

[Dan Riordan]

Just saw this last night in all it's 4K glory at a theater outside Chicago. I have to say the image was phenomenal.

I can't imagine why other companies are building digital cameras that aren't capable of shooting high resolutions, this is clearly the future. Arrogance is blinding.

I walked out of the theater thinking the game is over, it is only a matter of time now. The characteristics of image are cinematic, but not exactly "film" like, no grain and the highlights have different characteristics. Though the motion of the image is obviously film like, unlike Michael Mann's films. It is it's own beast and a beautiful one at that.

I was absolutely floored. And all of this in a relatively small camera package. Designed to be used freely and not just to sit like an over sized oaf on a tripod. The more i think about the more I think it is to good to be true.

But I saw it with my own eyes.

Absolutely brilliant.

Congratulations red.