On Set Editing - Any Options Wanted??

[barnsleyh]

Hi All,

Firstly, great forum, I have learnt a lot about RED without getting my hands on one!

I am proposing using RED for a shoot in three countries with quick turnaround. A big help for me would be the ability to edit offline on set.

I have been advised (maybe wrongly) by post production that working with R3D files on a (top-spec) MacBook Pro will be next to impossible. The processor power and time required to generate a cut-copy Quicktime renders the process unworkable.

I have heard through a couple of people (who don't know enough to tell me how) that the camera can generate other Quicktime formats as well as R3D. Is this true, and is there a preset for making a low res file that would be easily processed by a laptop and have timecode intact?

Forgive me if that is way off the mark, or if this has been answered elsewhere (please direct). I would love to know if there is a way to harness the full portability of RED with an On-Set edit workflow.

Thanks in advance

Barney

p.s Editor's pref is AVID (full media composer running on 2.5ghz MBP), but Final Cut is always an option.

[Gunleik Groven]

Well, this could work really fluently, if you don't insist on using the proxies...

Get yourself a e-sata card to your MBP, and set up a small/cheap RAID 5 box through e-sata.

Batch transcode the M or H proxies (depending on your needs. M will do in most cases) with Compressor as you copy the cards.

Keep a log, and let the log be continuusely reflected in your naming scheme in FCP and in Finder.

Make a new sequence for each setup...

And: bang/whoa you are ready for offline in the end of the day.

@ the moment FCP is the way to go for offline. Forget AVID. (This will hopefully change soon, but for now...)

Cut offline with FCP. DO NOT get scared of gammashifts and off white-balancing.

COnform with Crimson/Redcine or Crimson/redline

Online with whichever tyool you choose.

Be aware that the DPX workflow currently have issues. You'll need GlueTools to work with DPXs in FCP, BUT, you van have DPX FUs in RC as well, and if you're in 25 fps land, COLOR and DPXs is not adviceable. AND FCVP does not treat 10-bit RGB QT.movs good at all.

In other words:
Go somewhere else than FCP for online if you're not prepared to hack a lot and spend too much time on workflow and doublechecking that your files are actually intact throughout.

FCP is great for offline. Sux for online.

But compressor is a real nice tool, and prores is a nice and not too demanding offline format. A bit like DNxHD (Actually, the files are exact same size): A crappy deliveryformat, but a nice offline format.

Cheers!

Gunleik

[amrrahmy]

if by on set edit, u mean preview to see that u got the right footage right after u shoot, then yes.(get the latest mbp and upgrad it to the max and add a fast hard-drive(also choose the fastest hard-drive not the biggest in the mbp))

there are small quicktime reference files that work natively with any quicktime based application, like quicktime pro and fcs, or any other quicktime application. and u can make a rough cuts just as a preview(u can also save the cut as a uncompressed mov or avi file - that's as fast as ur hard-drive(either the one in the mbp or an external hard-drive))would write, so that very fast on small footage.(no encoding required)

and u can view the files in redcine and fcs and make a fast color correct just to see what the image would look like or how much potential it has.

that's very fast on any computer since it's all just in the hard-drive speed and ur talking about small amounts of data.

color correcting the r3d files is a different proposition that is not yet fast enough on any computer what so ever. but can be if either fcs would natively support r3d files in the next fcs3 or if redcine had gpu accelerated export to uncompressed mov or avi files(i have hopes for fcs3).

try to transcode the r3d files while ur asleep (and only small amounts at the time).

but u dont have to fear mbps, they are really fast.

[Jörgen Persson]

And: bang/whoa you are ready for offline in the end of the day.

@ the moment FCP is the way to go for offline. Forget AVID. (This will hopefully change soon, but for now...)

SNIP

But compressor is a real nice tool, and prores is a nice and not too demanding offline format. A bit like DNxHD (Actually, the files are exact same size): A crappy deliveryformat, but a nice offline format.


So in the Avid workflow forum you suggest that we cut on FCP.
You obviously don't know how an Avid editor works :bleh:

I have successfully cut Red footage with Avid MC Soft in numerous projects. Another one is wrapping today that I will start as soon as the footage arrives. Converting Red proxies to DNxHD or ProRes doesn't matter. It's the same kind of workflow and takes the same amount of time in rendering.

The only difference is that for now we need to create an ALE for the metadata to be preserved.

Using the workflow suggested by Michael Phillips will get you halfway by securing all metadata to be used downstream in the post process. The Avid community is just missing the Filmscribe XSLT to Redcine XML to have a complete Avid workflow for post. The XSLT is supposed to be released this month. (Am I right, Michael?)

[bench33]

So, looking for the least amount of kit required, quickest turn around and not needing too much processing power, is a good option to set up redcine on a machine - make DNxHD quicktimes to import in to avid then just get cutting?

[MichaelP]

If you are introducing a transcode into the process - then the workflows are very similar for FCP or MC - the new Redline with ALE generation provides all the metadata. The transcode happens during the import. MC will track both time of day and edgecode which seems to be a behavior choice in FCP when importing or dragging you get one or the other. Better off having both at your disposal for all needs downstream.

You could load MC software on the on set laptops and process as you go along via import. At end of day, copy bins and mediafiles to editor system. Try _M or _H for DnxHD36 proxies. A 300GB drive will hold close to 20 hours of DNxHD 36 - ProRes does not have a similar low data rate offering for offline.

Michael

[bench33]

Thanks michael,

any info on how long the transcode can take and if a mac laptop is up to the job?

[Gunleik Groven]

So in the Avid workflow forum you suggest that we cut on FCP.
You obviously don't know how an Avid editor works :bleh:


LOL!!

AND I say FCP is a no-go for online, right :)

No, you're right, and I wasn't aware of the better solutions in RedLine for an AVID workflow. Actually I am quite happy to hear that things are developing in the right direction.

YUP I suggest FCP, and one COULD use the cam proxies with FCP, I just have ended up batch-transcoding because I see that that makes my clients happier :)

If you can stay in AVID from then on, the better for RED. Sorry if I misinformed, and if you say that my post is outright wrong, I'll take it down.

Cheers!


Gunleik

[MichaelP]

On a MBP, I am getting 4-6x longer than real time importing directly into a MC from the QT references made by Redline.

Michael

[Gunleik Groven]

... thus the batch-transcode/FCP suggestion... Also opened for by the original poster. But again, if there are better solutions - I am very open :)

[MichaelP]

Wha's the difference between a batch transcode for FCP versus a batch import/trancode in Avid? Sounds the same to me with more metadata flexibility in MC.

Michael

[Gunleik Groven]

Speed?

As to flexibility, I am not the one to answer. I find Crimson a solid tool for metadata/conform/online from the FCP XMLs.

But agaain. If I am wrong, I'll remove my post.
I am really considering dropping FCP and going AVID if the tools are better there. Batch distributed rendering and online @ 4:4:4 uncompressed formats without worrying about bits being chopped off and (dare I say) RAW workflow, would bring me over.

[MichaelP]

It's hard to say right now without all the solutions being readily available in order to judge which one is fastest, most flexible, minimum number of steps and translations, most metadata complete, etc.

In a couple weeks, some of these can be tested out.

Michael

[Jason Diamond]

theres no diff between FCP and AVID and the gap is closing by the day.
just go with what you know and be creative. thats all that matters in the end.