Mini Red Reservation #001

[Brainstorm]

MINI-RED!!!!!

I'd like to put it on the record right now! I'd like reservations #001. Consider my deposit paid!!!

If anybody "in-the-know" can let us know ANYTHING about what's planned.... even vaguely... PLEASE do.

SOON!

[Andrew M.]

001 is prototype do you want #8 ?

[chuck colburn]

Mini Red!

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/German-1920x1080-Video-Camera-is-Smaller-than-A-Bar-of-Soap-.htm

[Hrvoje Simic]

Reservation n+3

with "n" being the whole Redcrew, plus Gibby,
plus Brainstorm

[Joe Aurili]

I'm VERY interested in mini RED also. This is what I wanted for RED One. The only questions are how small, and how full featured?

[Adam C Lubkin]

I hope they don't start taking deposits on Little-Red for awhile. I had to fight the urge to take funds from my Red One accessory savings to put down on the prime lens set. I plan to apply most of my rental revenue towards building up my kit, but expenditures are on hold until that revenue starts coming in.

[Brainstorm]

Mini Red!

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/German-1920x1080-Video-Camera-is-Smaller-than-A-Bar-of-Soap-.htm

If #8 is the first one that leaves the factory, then I'll take that one!

But the mini RED Chuck is pointing isn't quite what I'd like to see. My wishlist is:

Compact but with shoulder mount (ala JVC HD200/250)
Full1080 p (or 2K if it's possible at a good price)
Built in servo for lens control
Flip-out HD LCD viewfinder (plus standard eye-piece viewfinder of course!)
The first serious lens on a camcorder-size HD camera

I'd like to see the ultimate camera for "discrete shooting". A "fly-on-wall-shoot" masterpiece. Something to blow Sony's planned HDCAM EX out of the water.

It would be as revolutionary for indy-doco as RED One is going to be to indy-drama.

aaagggghhhh. I think I'm dribbling...

[Mark B.]

Is the MiniRed a camera, or videocamera?

[Brainstorm]

Is the MiniRed a camera, or videocamera?

If it's not a video camera.... well, I think I'll top myself! :clown2:

[Bruce Allen]

Me too. Give us more hints, good Red folk, before I buy that HV20 for B-camera...

In either event, due to reduced cost of the Red PL-mount zoom, my HV20 plan has shifted from:
Nikon + Nikon 35mm adapter + HV20
to:
Red zoom + PL mount 35mm adapter + HV20, haha!

Would love to shift the plan again to Red zoom + Mini Red.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[RED-Tank]

I want #8, #9, #10.

I want 35mm photo-len & vari-frame.

I attach my own monitor & mic if this makes mini-RED come out faster and easier.

You can hardly stop dreaming these days... thank you RED guys.

[kraemer]

I want a "Red-mini" thats built just for the "Oakley" crowd. Small, RUGGED! Does 720p*60FPS and records to SD cards. Please please please!!!!

[Andrew M.]

Is the MiniRed a camera, or videocamera?

The only difference these days between video-camera versus camera is the place where you will attach the REDDRIVE to.
To your belt, then it is camera.
To the back or top of the camera, then it is camcorder:-)

[Brainstorm]

The only difference these days between video-camera versus camera is the place where you will attach the REDDRIVE to.
To your belt, then it is camera.
To the back or top of the camera, then it is camcorder:-)

Absolutely true Andrew.

So if resolution, data storage and workflow are no longer the key issues (as RED One demonstrates), the important design questions regarding a RED mini would be:

Size ; Body Form Factor; and (perhaps most importantly) Lens and Lens Control

[Axel Mertes]

OK,

this is MINI
this is RED

BUT

this is made by LuxMediaPlan and Fraunhofer. I know the poeple who did it. This is not a RED Mini. Btw, this uses the same sensor as the SI-1920...

Just in case someone wants a SI-Mini (ehm - SI-1920 full).

Cheers,
Axel

[Axel Mertes]

OK,

this is MINI
this is RED

BUT

this is made by LuxMediaPlan and Fraunhofer. I know the poeple who did it. This is not a RED Mini. Btw, this uses the same sensor as the SI-1920...

Just in case someone wants a SI-Mini (ehm - SI-1920 full).

Cheers,
Axel

To add following:

www.luxmediaplan.de

Just for convenience.

I don't talk further on RED MINI until its officially released (and I know a better name for it anyway).

Axel

[Petr Dvorak]

I want miniRED too - for pocket, backpack production or just for pleasure.
35 mm mount for exchangeable lenses, max color space output, full HD or 2K, flash recording, etc ...
Just compact design camera without sacrified picture quality and to get rid of need of lightlosing adapters.
... it will be sooo sweet

[Emanuel A.]

Why not 4K?

Why not from a 35mm sensor as well?

[Bruce Allen]

Why not 4K?

Why not from a 35mm sensor as well?

Emanuel, I totally agree, that would be great! My dream would be for a smaller Red One, shown in semi-working form at next year's NAB, hopefully shipping around Dec of next year, with the same Red One sensor (economies of scale might keep costs down, right?), 2 audio inputs (get an external recorder if you want more), one HDMI or HD-SDI port (you can get repeaters, HDMI -> HD-SDI converters, etc if you need them, I personally don't) and no Red-RAW. I'd also vote for harddrive-only for simplicity. I'm sure that won't be popular with the helmet-mount extreme sports set, but it just survived Peter Jackson's aerial stuff, right? Okay, maybe they could choose one simple flash option based on whichever standard emerges the winner.

By Dec of next year, RedCode, RedCine and the whole data-based RAW workflow should be pretty-well entrenched. Plus the computers will be able to transcode with great speed and quality, FCP will be proven to support it elegantly, etc. So, they can also do away with all of the other format options. Just have two - RedCode-compressed 4K RAW, plus a windowed, higher-speed mode. That might make for a cheaper / more power-conservative encoding chip.

Anyway, that would be the dream. If they want to keep the price down, I'd be cool with a 3K or 2K sensor too, especially if it could keep high fps (I do music vids, so that is very useful). If they go away from 35mm size / PL / Nikon / Canon mount options, that would be sad, but if they offer an amazingly-priced Red lens to go with it, I'd be okay with it. Especially if they announce this move before I buy any PL / Nikon / Canon mount glass intended for it!

What does everyone else think? Sorry to distract from Red One - it is amazing and I can't wait to rent it / work with DPs who use it. I'm just excited to have a new, possibly affordable goal to be saving money for. When someone makes a Red Mini / Pocket Pro Red section, we'll move there happily.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Brainstorm]

E
What does everyone else think? Sorry to distract from Red One - it is amazing and I can't wait to rent it / work with DPs who use it. I'm just excited to have a new, possibly affordable goal to be saving money for. When someone makes a Red Mini / Pocket Pro Red section, we'll move there happily.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Hey Bruce,

Like you, I don't want to take anything away from today's extraordinary achievement with RED One. Jim's team has amazed everybody... !

But if RED One is like a Formula One car, then I'd love to see a RED rally car.

A RED Mini like you've dreamed of above sounds like a very appealing rally car to me!

[Daymon Hoffman]

I want reservation #15. :P (don't ask... long story. But to cut it short - my next fav numbers is 6669777546 and i really dont want to wait that long lol).

Please more info Mr RED.

[dalen johnson]

Have to admit, I am totally interested to see what this whole mini red will be...

Peace

[Priyesh P.]

A little companion for the red one would be nice, even at 2K.

By NAB 2008 I hope we´ll see red two with the capability to capture 4K internally to redcode raw at 60 ( or even 120 fps ).
That´s the only little drawback to filmcameras like the 435 ( 0-150 fps )
or the arricam st ( 0-60 fps )

[Jeff Kilgroe]

IMO, I doubt the mini-RED will be anything less than 4K. Hopefully will use the same Mysterium sensor. It will probably have a fixed lens... Record media would most likely be FLASH -- I would bet on the 1.8" SATA or possibly ExpressCard.

Of course, I'm just kinda hoping / wishing and wild-ass guessing. I will live with my Sony HC3 as compact camera until I see what RED has coming. But a 2K to 4K in the size of a handheld camcorder/palmcorder would be the ultimate companion for the RED One. Home movies shot in REDCODE with a compact camcorder.... Ooooh, how could I resist. ;) Also great for all those covert little shooting jobs. Fully set up, the thing needs to be 1/3 the size of my stock HVX or smaller. The HVX200 still looks like a "pro" camera to most people and tends to draw a lot of attention.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

home movies shot in 4k would devalue 4k in my opinion..

but i really doubt the mini red will be as capable as the redone.. Jim said Red One will be long lasting and wont fade out because of new products..in other words.. if i buy a red one now and in a year a mini red comes out that does all the same stuff but for 8-10 grand or whatever.. that just wont happen.. i hope

[MDP]

Just give us a lil more info so I don't go out and buy an HVX!! Please!!!!

[JustinGD]

By NAB 2008 I hope we´ll see red two with the capability to capture 4K internally to redcode raw at 60 ( or even 120 fps ).


I assume and hope that if/when redcode raw can shoot 60 or 120 fps that you won't need a RED TWO, just a little upgrade on your RED ONE.

[Jiri Bakala]

There are many people producing programming for TV, particularly documentaries, and as such, a smaller RED Mini with a 2k capabilities and a 2/3 bayonet mount would be great, allowing the use of ENG zoom lenses. The zoom lenses available in PL mount for the most part are too short and also the lack of zoom rocker for the right-hand operation is problematic, especially in one-person crew situations.

So, simply put, a camera capable of shooting 2k or 1080p at various frame rates to a file-based recording system with bayonet mount allowing the use of Fujinon, Canon and other broadcast HD lenses with double extender would be fantastic!

[Policar]

A fixed lens would be a disaster; no one would buy a professional camera with one since no single 35mm lens is remotely versitile that costs under $50,000 or weighs under 20 pounds.

I very much doubt the camera will have an s35 sesnor; the heat would be too much for the small body, unless it's just the head and it needs to be tethered...which would be annoying and against design philosophy. Plus, this would appeal to a VERY niche market.

My best guess would be a super16 2k sensor. While I'd like to see an Arri 235-esque s35 camera, I don't think it's possible, nor do I think it has much of a market. 8 pounds is light enough for handheld, anyway. If this is indeed a full featured super 16 camera (for under $10,000 PLEASE) rather than a gimmick to show off technology, I could see sales being even bigger than for the Red One. I know I'd buy one! Plus, you can get beautiful super 16 glass for very cheap.

Such a camera would be quite versitile, too, since it could intercut with 4k just fine (you only use this kind of camera for shots with enough motion blur that resolution is less critical) but it would also be ideal for ultra-low budget houses and student films.

I can see this thing either being hugely successful or being a gimmick...I'm praying for the former. Honestly, I think there's a bigger (or at least comperable) market for a Super 16 camera than for the Red One.

I honestly believe an ENG camera would fail. There are great ENG cameras (with 2/3'' chips) for under 20 grand and workflows that all the networks use. That's a market that's so mature nothing could break into it...unlike digital cinema, which is a fledgeling market.

[Patrick Jennings]

i think it will have;

same 35mm 4k Mysterium sensor
same 35mm multi format lens mount
only record 2k RedCode but with all frame reates
only record onto CF
have a 720p 5.6" flip LCD
2x XLR ports

it will basicaly follow the same design layout as the recent camcorders - GS500, HV20 ect.. just with the "brutal architecture" style of RED!!! :)

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/19156/1176830683.jpg

[Policar]

i think it will have;

same 35mm 4k Mysterium sensor
same 35mm multi format lens mount
only record 2k RedCode but with all frame reates
only record onto CF
have a 720p 5.6" flip LCD
2x XLR ports

it will basicaly follow the same design layout as the recent camcorders - GS500, HV20 ect.. just with the "brutal architecture" style of RED!!! :)

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/19156/1176830683.jpg

Unfortunately, the amount of heat would be prohibitive...

[Patrick Jennings]

why? if it's just doing 2k scaled from the 4k sensor, then it should be fine. all the HDV consumer camcorders are doing aprox 2k already. this would just be a super awesome full manual version of them.

[Bruce Allen]

I think Policar's heat issue with the above design comes from the combination of two big LCD backlights with a lack of cooling options.

Bruce

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree on the heat issue regarding the above design. But.... I'm not so sure about having the interchangeable lens mount. That kinda defeats the "pocket camera" mentioned by both Jim and Gibby. As a handheld or compact camera, I think the fixed lens also makes the most sense as this format of camera really needs autofocus. My gut still says it will be ultra compact with a fixed lens. Also why would they use the 4K Mysterium sensor and not shoot 4K?

RED may not use the S35mm Mysterium in a pocket camera, but I'd look for at least 1/3" to 2/3" sensors. A 2/3" sensor 2K pro palmcorder would seriously rock. Less than that (1/3", 1920x1080) and they will just be another prosumer HD palmcorder. Mark my words, we'll see 1080p palmcorders that record wavelet based JPEG2000 or other wavelet based formats to FLASH media within the next year as consumer/prosumer devices. RED needs something small enough it can be held and operated in one hand. Be tucked into a small bag or a large coat pocket and be seriously rugged and pro all the way through. It will also need to differentiate itself from the crowd both in visual image quality and build quality. 2/3" FOV / DOF @ 2K REDCODE in the palm of my hand. That's what I want. :) I'd take 4K too if they can keep it fully configured at less than 1/2 the size of my HVX200.

[Stephen Williams]

A

no single 35mm lens is remotely versitile that costs under $50,000 or weighs under 20 pounds.


Plus, you can get beautiful super 16 glass for very cheap.

Hi,

I don't agree with either of those statements.

Stephen

[Brian Kaz]

Posted by Jim at DVinfo:
"It isn't a mini-RED, it is a Professional Pocket camera."

Then, by Graeme:
"A Pocket Professional camera is just that, a Pocket Professional camera."

I don't know, sounds to me like it's a portable "pocket" still camera featuring a "professional" grade sensor (Mysterium)...
Either way, I'm eager to learn more about this thing.

[Bruce Allen]

Pocket still camera? Hope not! Ah well, I'm sure it'll rock anyway. Still, they would be entering a more crowded marketplace - eg competing with Leica, the Panasonic version of the Leica, the Nikon D40X and Canon 400D? The latter are 10 megapixels already and have strong lens mount integration for AF, etc.

EDIT: and most importantly, unlike the high-end digital cinema cameras, they are actually priced sanely...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Brian Kaz]

I'm hoping for a small cinema camera as well. They are being frustratingly cryptic with their wording.

[Hrvoje Simic]

It will also need to differentiate itself from the crowd both in visual image quality and build quality. 2/3" FOV / DOF @ 2K REDCODE in the palm of my hand. That's what I want.

Exactly.

1080p is also fine with me, since I have a feeling its 1080p will be slighly better that competition's 1080p.

I doubt it won't differentiate...:shifty:

[Policar]

Original post deleted due to hugely incorrect information and misguided unpleasantness....

...although I still think a removable lens is preferable and a super 16 sized sensor would allow for a product with a larger potential user base, less expensive lenses, a smaller camera (an overheating CMOS leads to terrible S:N ratios), and a price point that would be attractive to everyone! Including me, hopefully.

[Stephen Williams]

I've seen 10-100mm Zeiss lenses in good condition go for surprisingly little on eBay. .

Hi,

You might be interested to know that is not a S16 lens!

Stephen trying to give you accurate information!

[Policar]

Hi,

You might be interested to know that is not a S16 lens!

Stephen trying to give you accurate information!

Really? Heh...no wonder that lens is so cheap....

Also, sorry if I blew up a bit in my last post, today's been an "interesting" day and I'm so jetlagged the slightest thing will set me off...I'll be editing that now.

My point still stands that this camera would benefit from having a removable lens, though. I just don't see the point of a camera made for professional film production where you can't choose your lens.

[Stephen Williams]

Really? Heh...no wonder that lens is so cheap....

Also, sorry if I blew up a bit in my last post, today's been an "interesting" day and I'm so jetlagged the slightest thing will set me off...I'll be editing that now.

My point still stands that this camera would benefit from having a removable lens, though. I just don't see the point of a camera made for professional film production where you can't choose your lens.

Hi,

FWIW I have never bought any S16 equipment because good lenses are so expensive. I find very afordable glass available for 35mm cameras, in BNCR mount.

Stephen

[Aiden Cornwell]

What I would love in the mini red is 1080p up to 2k if possible, but with 4:4:4 colour being the most important aspect. And price point I would love to see it at 4-6 K

[onjaym]

I'll buy mini red #8 right now. Credit card or cash standing by... just pm me.

[Craig Ryan]

I'd like to see something that has the DOF and hopefully close to the dynamic range of the RED ONE. Seeing how all of RED's announced products will be 4k (RED ONE, 4k projectors, displays), I could easily see the pocket cam being 4k as well, just without the bells and whistles of the RED ONE..and possibly with a fixed zoom lens? Who knows! I'd say the 8-10k market would be ideal for a camera of this type. At this point, personally the only other camera in the sub 10k market that has promise for a stellar image (4:4:4 and possibly 2 extra stops) would be the Hydra HVX; but now with the announcement of a pocket camera from RED? I'll be waiting patiently.

[Thom Steinhoff]

www.luxmediaplan.de



I agree. What I think it is is like the image on his link would be that of a teathered camera, maybe even coming back to a RED. Instead of an EVF extension--think of an extension between the sensor and the camera. Giving you a camera you could drop into a corner, on a dashboard, put on the end of a crane, etc.

"Red Eye" would be the name I would give such a device, 4K, Red one Required, a very useful professional Red Accessory.

What people are clamoring over would be a "Little Red". A "for the masses" camcorder that would have Red Quality and Red Workflow for lower budget work.

What I would expect would be a camera that ONLY works in Red Code Raw 2K or 1080 RGB with a variety of frame rates. Sorry, but I would expect it to be a smaller sensor as the magic is Red Code Raw and why have the additional expense of a larger sensor if you must crop it to get the Raw benefits anyway?

A comperable camera in cost and size would be the Canon HD's.

From Jim's comments, it doesn't sound like this is what's in store. That may be a next year thing. An extension camera as hinted by Axel would seem more likely as it is just another accessory and doesn't require a completely parallel effort for camera software, interfaces, etc.

[Zas]

Personally I'm picturing something that someone like Peter Jackson asked for when working with miniatures. Not a cheap, 10kish cam, but something that's exactly what it sounds like - a really small Red. But we'll see.

[ColinSmith]

What I would expect would be a camera that ONLY works in Red Code Raw 2K or 1080 RGB with a variety of frame rates. Sorry, but I would expect it to be a smaller sensor as the magic is Red Code Raw and why have the additional expense of a larger sensor if you must crop it to get the Raw benefits anyway?

A comperable camera in cost and size would be the Canon HD's.


Yup, this is where I would dream it goes, a HDV sized body taking the same interchangable lens mounts as the Red One, using a a sensor the same size and recording 1080 or 2k raw.

My one hope that this might really happen is the idea that maybe full sized 4.5k sensors that fail quality control can still be used in a 2k device, similar to the old grading proceedure on Intel CPUs...... no idea if it works that way in this case though...

[Milan Nikolic]

I am reserving #20 mini RED camera if it is 2K, 4-4-4, with some kind auto-focus (a must in my line of work) and pocketable size. Also shuting on CF or SD.

[Bruce Allen]

Well, traditionally, they map out dead pixels in sensors using info from adjacent ones. When there are too many dead pixels for QC, they discard it, I think?

I'd happily take a camera with one of those sensors that failed QC. They can put it in a body whose 2nd XLR inputs have failed, whose HD-SDI outputs have failed, whose Red-RAW and flash recording options have failed and whose encoding chip has failed except for 4K REDCODE RAW :) I think the last bit is fiction though because their chip would probably be a FPGA - either it would work or it wouldn't?

Interesting, this discussion is splitting into multiple types of Red Mini. I would personally be happy to buy both - whether it's an Aaton-style Red or a HV20-style Red, both would be wonderful.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Ken Corben]

First Gibby, the Red Savant, breaks the news on RED Monday:

1. RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera. Ted couldn’t give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.

Then what's really cool is the Reduser community immediately begins posting wish lists and even design sketches. What's even cooler is that the Redteam, although clearly they have a design in mind, actually reads these posts. Truly a revolutionary company.

Format - I would think, given what we know now, that 4K redcode raw will be the only record option and is what they mean by "professional pocket camera" - these guys don't follow (2K minis) they lead. Fewer record options means fewer boards, heat generation, etc.

Power - Accepts a variety of onboard and offboard power solutions.

Lenses - IMHO, a fixed lens would be a concept killer - the idea is modular flexibility. If one needs faster or wider or macro lenses for specific shoots then what? I don't think 2/3" ENG lenses are the answer either. Way to big and not exactly cheap. Maybe a new line of super sharp RED C-mount primes from Jim?

Storage - The wizards will have onboard compact flash and options to record to offboard RED HDD and flash options.

EVF VS Monitor - The RED mantra would imply modular concept here. Perhaps the use of the existing monitor and/or EVF or slicker yet an onboard small and simple black and white EVF for critical focus.

Oh, and BTW - Given the Redteam track record I think a NAB '08 release for the REDEYE is pessimistic.

Way to go everyone...

[JCallahan]

I think that Jannard and Company have set out to create digital "answers" to existing formats. Red is a professional "answer" to 35mm caliber formats. The pocket camera will be an "answer" to 16mm formats. There will probably even be a third camera, a consumer product, that is an "answer" (or true successor) to Super8.

Whatever though, I'm just blowin' smoke :whistling:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would love to purchase a 2/3" 1080p red quality chip. I would stop renting and would be great for those last second shoots.

[Ken Corben]

I think that Jannard and Company have set out to create digital "answers" to existing formats. Red is a professional "answer" to 35mm caliber formats. The pocket camera will be an "answer" to 16mm formats. There will probably even be a third camera, a consumer product, that is an "answer" (or true successor) to Super8.

Whatever though, I'm just blowin' smoke :whistling:

A very good guess and analogy.

Though after watching Ted's wicked smile at the end of this interview I would stick with my guess of 4K all the way:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2240910838386181101&q=red+NAB

[Craig Ryan]

Actually I didn't even think of an actual, MINATURE camera for minature work as someone said...that's a good idea...kind of like an extention to the RED ONE for those impossible tight shots within the minatures (we all know Jackson's use of minatures). Honestly it seems like it can go either way at this point between an actual 4k tiny cam VS a smaller/simpler RED; however, after watching that interview with Ted, I also noticed that "wicked" grin too. Afterall, this is RED we're talking about here...

[Justin Anderson]

Reservation n+3

with "n" being the whole Redcrew, plus Gibby,
plus Brainstorm

^^^that's got to be the nerdiest version of "calling dibs" I've ever seen. :)

[Justin Anderson]

I'd like to see something that has the DOF and hopefully close to the dynamic range of the RED ONE. Seeing how all of RED's announced products will be 4k (RED ONE, 4k projectors, displays), I could easily see the pocket cam being 4k as well, just without the bells and whistles of the RED ONE..and possibly with a fixed zoom lens? Who knows! I'd say the 8-10k market would be ideal for a camera of this type. At this point, personally the only other camera in the sub 10k market that has promise for a stellar image (4:4:4 and possibly 2 extra stops) would be the Hydra HVX; but now with the announcement of a pocket camera from RED? I'll be waiting patiently.

I think that using essentially the same hardware without the firmware would be a poor marketing strategy. The camera couldn't be much cheaper than the RED, so you'd be paying almost the same price for the same thing.

I'm guessing a 2k chip(1/4 the resolution of 4k) with a more limited feature set and built in LCD/viewfinder, like a camcorder, and possibly with REDram and raid options.
Or maybe they're going consumer level with a built in lens. Who knows.

[Poi Boy]

I think anything less than 4k would be a dissapointment.
Aloha
-A

[Justin Anderson]

I think anything less than 4k would be a dissapointment.
Aloha
-A

I wouldn't. I'd think of it like the Super16 of digital. ...or possibly the best event-videography cam ever made. :weight_lift:

we'll see though.

[Poi Boy]

none of us know what they have in mind but I can't imagine that at this point they would do something at less than 4k.
-A

[Vincent Rice]

You do all realise that RED could have absolutely no idea what a 'Pocket Professional Camera' is and that we are actually designing it here?:blink:

In which case:

2K Sensor for 1080p. Simple small brick shape with ExpressCard slot. C-mount for lenses. Biggest LCD possible. Lots of itty-bitty RED accessories!

[Justin Anderson]

You do all realise that RED could have absolutely no idea what a 'Pocket Professional Camera' is and that we are actually designing it here?:blink:


I'm anything BUT opposed to public forum design discussions. One of my favorite parts of RED's business. :D

[Poi Boy]

I'm thinking 4k pov camera.
-A

[Hrvoje Simic]

^^^that's got to be the nerdiest version of "calling dibs" I've ever seen. :)

heh heh.....maybe where you come from....:biggrin:

in this tech explosion one has to fight to resist nerdishness kicking in :weight_lift:

[emotional-stuntman]

that's so cool that they're going to make a miniRED.
that's what i was actually looking for.

I'd say the RedOne is a 1Ds Mark II. Just a little bit over the top what I, as a young independent wannabe-filmmaker, really need and can afford.
Now we need a Rebel XTi which hopefully will be the miniRed.

That is what I was thinking about for years.
Why can't they make a Rebel XT with 24p instead of 3p?
RED has the answer.

[Brainstorm]

You do all realise that RED could have absolutely no idea what a 'Pocket Professional Camera' is and that we are actually designing it here?:blink:

In which case:

2K Sensor for 1080p. Simple small brick shape with ExpressCard slot. C-mount for lenses. Biggest LCD possible. Lots of itty-bitty RED accessories!


I'm available for consultation on possible designs for a RED Mini whenever Jim and Team RED would like to speak with me :whistling:

... and since I've got reservation #001, I think it would only be reasonable they gave me a chance to put in my wish list! :excl:

[Bruce Allen]

2 more days of full-on hounding at NAB and no further info has squeaked out... I am so sad. Maybe they are hiding one somewhere in the tent. Scour more, good NAB people, scour more! Maybe it is the Red spider thing? Maybe it is hiding in the camo-style netting? Maybe it is all built into a robotic dragonfly that is hovering above your heads? Maybe it lives inside a human tooth? That will be their end-of-NAB surprise - when they show all of the weird footage it took of all of the unsuspecting NAB-goers.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Martín Yernazian]

I have to intervene
why have c mount lenses... even do they are great and you could find them anywhere.... why you will use them....for that matter you can find DSLR lenses or Slr ones to fit this thing.... or what the hell get a pl mount for it and tehre you goo now you have some quality lenses you can find

Also I have to say Stephen

the Zeiss 10-100mm those not cover S16 or any 16:9 format it will vignette like a bitch that's why Optex can convert that lens to S16 for .... ( a lot)

I thing the best option for cheap lenses are the Canon FD SLR or Nikon's F... They are old but they work like a charm ... I use Canon's on my Eclair NPR S16 and the image is great... and pretty bright to

You can find a Peleng 8mm with a pl mount for 350 bucks

Ergo = plenty of lenses ( medium quality) to play around and even to do great projects , you don't need high quality super expensive lenses...... also I bet red will make this cam to fit their lenses for sure and for what I been told those lenses are going to be money ( I will buy the set for my S16 kit)

So will see what up!


You do all realise that RED could have absolutely no idea what a 'Pocket Professional Camera' is and that we are actually designing it here?:blink:

In which case:

2K Sensor for 1080p. Simple small brick shape with ExpressCard slot. C-mount for lenses. Biggest LCD possible. Lots of itty-bitty RED accessories!

[JCallahan]

After watching that interview with Ted... I won't be surprised if they make this thing 4k for around $8-10k. They are probably going to take everything they learned from the development of Red One and put it into Red Two. They already have the codec and a lot of the software and conceptual work done. In the coming months, they will even have the feedback of active users to apply to both the design of Red Two and any refinements that might eventually make it to Red One. So yeah...the Red story is only bound to become more interesting. I can't wait until Jim shows up and spills some beans on this new camera. If anything I find it more exciting than Red One.

[Ken Corben]

I have to intervene
why have c mount lenses... even do they are great and you could find them anywhere.... why you will use them....for that matter you can find DSLR lenses or Slr ones to fit this thing.... or what the hell get a pl mount for it and tehre you goo now you have some quality lenses you can find

Very valid point, however, if "professional pocket camera" is the RED design mandate then the size of a PL mount and lenses or DSLR and SLR lenses with RED adapters are SIGNIFICANTLY BIGGER than a new set of c-mount lenses, especially if they are a set of new, fast primes by RED; these larger lenses would defeat the design goal of a professional mini 4K camera, no?

[liquidigital]

Even if this is a still cam, I would buy it immediately. I know Jim is a photographer and I am too, so if he's coming from this angle, I can assure you, a "pocket cam" with a full 35mm sensor would rock the photo industry. The closest thing to a "pocket cam" with a sensor bigger than 2/3 inch would be the Sigma DP1, which is still a much smaller sensor than the Mysterium, and has a fixed lens at f4. Of course, "pocket cam" may not mean still, just speculating.

[Thom Steinhoff]

Even if this is a still cam, I would buy it immediately. I know Jim is a photographer and I am too, so if he's coming from this angle, I can assure you, a "pocket cam" with a full 35mm sensor would rock the photo industry. The closest thing to a "pocket cam" with a sensor bigger than 2/3 inch would be the Sigma DP1, which is still a much smaller sensor than the Mysterium, and has a fixed lens at f4. Of course, "pocket cam" may not mean still, just speculating.

4K Still to Red Code using the full sensor and PL Mount. Hmmm. Intersting for shooting plates that could get the exact same look, luts, workflow as if shot from the camera. However, I don't see it as enough of a market to warrant working on it as most would just use a Red one or an SLR.

Also, if it were just for stills--I doubt this would be of much interst for Jim as he has always said that he hoped to do for film what digital has done for stills--essentially saying that in his mind the problem with stills has already been solved.

My sense is that it is going to be one of two things: a Red-Eye--an extension for the Red One to put it in places it couldn't otherwise go, or a "Little Red"-- a 2K Redcode Raw shooter with the same mounts, a built in eyepiece and LCD.

[Álex Montoya]

" 2K Redcode Raw shooter with the same mounts, a built in eyepiece and LCD."

Yep, sth in that direction. But maybe without the PL mount and the sensor would be 1/4 the size of the mysterium.

[Patrick Jennings]

there would be no point for RED to make a camera with a sensor smaller than 35mm. i say this because you can put a 35mm adapter on the front of any camera. why would you buy a 2/3 chip camera when you can get a 1/3 chip camera with a 35mm adapter?

a 2/3" chip camcorder just isn't that revolutionary or desirable. but if it's a 35mm camcorder, then it's great!

tying in with that, the camera would have the same multi format lens mount because a fixed lens is just asking for trouble.

also the camera would have to record onto CF because it's the only format that is "pocket camera" sized and modular. by that i mean you can buy any size you want/can afford and it's constantly being updated.

the current size constraints of CF mean that 4k RAW is probably not going to be an option. but is a just 2k camera revolutionary? current cheap camcorders are shooting 1080p. 2k is basically the same thing.

i think it will shoot 2k redcode (scaled not cropped) and 4k redcode for when larger CF cards are available and cheap.


take a look at the HV20 with the BREVIS35 over at http://www.cinevate.com/

it does 1080p24 with a 35mm DOF.
the whole thing weighs about 1kg and is SMALL. that setup produces some awesome footage. the only problem with it is; you can't focus using the small lcd and the HV20 doesn't have great manual control.

the RED mini will fix this by having the same 5.6" 720p LCD and professional level manual control in a smaller form factor!!!

if it's anything less than this, i don't think there's much of a point.

[Policar]

there would be no point for RED to make a camera with a sensor smaller than 35mm. i say this because you can put a 35mm adapter on the front of any camera. why would you buy a 2/3 chip camera when you can get a 1/3 chip camera with a 35mm adapter?


When shooting at 24fps (even more so at 60fps) a large CMOS sensor generates a LOT of heat...and heat ruins the S:N ratio at low levels and destroys the camera at high levels. Sure, an S35 chip would be ideal, but it's a lot more than the physical size of the chip that prohibits it being put in a "pocket camera." Then again...anything's possible.

Also, 35mm adapters are a nightmare. I've used the mini35; I've used the "legendary" Geurilla35; I've built my own. They're a total nightmare, although useful for what they do. I'd love to see an s35 chip, too, but I just don't think it's possible.

Plus, how do you fit a 5.6'' LCD into a "mini camera." There's a point to 16mm film cameras; a lot of major productions use them for b camera work (Apocalypto, City of God to name a few...) I mean, 4k is sort of the selling point for the Red One, but I see a potentially larger market for a super 16 camera....and you can buy t1.2 lenses for super 16, too, although as Stephen correctly pointed out, they are expensive.

[kmikami]

I really doubt that this will be the ultimate midprice indie dream camera that everyone is hoping for.

The camera will almost certainly be 4k since Red has basically staked their identity as a company on the future of 4k and the idea of leapfrogging the rest of the industry. Creating a new 2k sensor would not necessarily make the camera any cheaper considering the extra R&D and new chip manufacturing costs that would be involved. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the "professional pocket camera" will use the existing chip.

To capture the midbudget indie market the camera would need to make 35mm adapters obsolete so the interchangable lenses would need to stay. In that video interview, Ted stressed that it wouldn't be a plastic prosumer camera so no cost reduction there. On a 4k, metal body camera with interchangable lenses what else could you possibly remove to get the camera down in price while making sure that the Red One is not obsolete?

So since this was announced as a Professional Pocket Camera I think it's pretty safe to assume that the price point will remain the same or higher than the Red One and the camera will be an ultra-miniaturized version with some of the electronics and connectors stripped off. I'm imagining a 4k camera that you can actually stick in your pocket, on the dashboard of a racecar, up an actor's nose, etc.

[Shawn Bannon]

This will definitly be a 4k camera.
To be used in conjunction with the existing Red One Camera.
Think Crash Cam, Action Cam
Relative size to a dslr, with the lens mount options of the existing camera.

able to use onboard solid state media format, and small onboard batteries.

but also tether your existing red drive and full size batteries, so you can put the camera itself in hard to reach places but still use your existing accessories if wanted.

[Craig Schober]

red might have disrupted the product chain for companies like sony, jvc, panasonic but they're not going to disrupt their own products. if they introduced a mini red with all the functionality of redone but smaller, they would piss off every reservation holder including me. why wouldn't i pick a mini red and 35mm lens (giant lens on small cam would be ridiculous) over a redone? why would they risk cancellation of redone orders when they can have both orders? i would, however, order a smaller, cheaper, stripped-down redone as a complement to my redone. i wouldn't mind intercutting 2k and 4k if the 2k footage could only have been acquired with a small cam.

the key is the mini size. it would be great to have redone features in a handheld cam but i don't think they are close enough to making that work. think about 3 years from now. that leaves red mini as a backup or pov cam for the prosumer and possibly consumer market and they have no need for 4k. honestly, most of us here have no need for 4k but it's cool and will be an accepted format someday. but people buying mini red wouldn't be buying it for future proofing or archiving. they're buying it for small size and possible features that redone cannot do easily.

maybe 120fps or more at 2k.
onboard audio.
onboard flash recording.
built-in lcd/vf
built-in battery system
built-in optics

these are all convienence features that come with small size and redone doesn't currently do. why else would they announce "pocket-sized camera"?

the only other use i could think of for a pocket-sized cam with 4k/35mm imaging is for remote (no operator) use on a vehicle, helicopter and underwater to perfectly match other stuff shot with a big old redone 4k cam.

[Shawn Bannon]

The RedOne is already a very small camera. It is roughly the size of the Arri 235. Too much smaller and it wouldnt be good for adding a mattebox, eyepiece, monitor, and all the other accesories.

The Mini Red Camera will not be competition for the RedOne, it will be an addition.

I don't think the Red team is making a 4k projector and 4k monitor so they can edit 2k footage which is a 1/4 of the size in a year from now.

[Bruce Allen]

take a look at the HV20 with the BREVIS35 over at http://www.cinevate.com/

it does 1080p24 with a 35mm DOF.
the whole thing weighs about 1kg and is SMALL. that setup produces some awesome footage. the only problem with it is; you can't focus using the small lcd and the HV20 doesn't have great manual control.

the RED mini will fix this by having the same 5.6" 720p LCD and professional level manual control in a smaller form factor!!!


Well since the HV20 only costs $1000, it leaves you a lot of money to buy a good LCD. You don't have to use the one that's on the camera. And manual control is not much of an issue - lock your shutter speed and exposure and just use the f-stop and focus rings on the lens plus ND filters.

If Red decides to go with a fixed lens or non-35mm sensor size, why not use an SGpro or Brevis with it? You could make a Red sandwich - Red PL mount lens, 35mm adapter, Red Mini.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Vincent Rice]

Why is everybody fixated on 4K?

'Professional' to me equates with minimum 720p and changeable lenses.
'Pocket' to me equates to, oh I dunno... being able to fit it in your pocket?
ergo C-mount. A 4K sensor and 35mm pl lenses in your pocket? I don't think so.

A still camera would fill no market need that I'm aware of.

[kmikami]

Why is everybody fixated on 4K?

Red has spent all of its R&D time and money in pursuit of 4k. Why would they toss that aside and build a new lower-resolution sensor? Does the physical size of the 4k sensor really make a pocket-sized camera impossible?

[Bruce Allen]

kmikami, I think it depends on your definition of "pocket" :)

Personally I'm hoping they make it a big pocket. But I trust Red's definition of professional to be "higher quality than the minimum needed for anything Bruce will be directing for the foreseeable future".

Vinney57, you have me interested in C-mount lenses now... but I am interested - have you chosen them because you are trying to decode Red's choice of words, or because you would actually prefer a smaller C-mount camera over, say, a slightly larger PL-mount or even Nikon still lens mount one? A small Nikon still camera like a D40 is still kinda pocketable... like ultra-suede is kinda washable, right? But a Red lipstick cam sounds fun and useful in a strange sort of way too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Craig Schober]

Red has spent all of its R&D time and money in pursuit of 4k. Why would they toss that aside and build a new lower-resolution sensor? Does the physical size of the 4k sensor really make a pocket-sized camera impossible?

i think we can only go by what red has said. they didn't say handheld or lightweight or even small for a reason. pocket-sized, to me, means something very small like a camcorder with a built-in lens that should fit in your "pocket". i don't think you can fit a 4k chip in there and even if you could, you couldn't fit optics to do 4k justice.

i think it still fits in red's marketing kind of like apple. apple starts with the higher end machines and works their way "down" with to spread into the consumer market. red can't really go up from 4k (at least not anytime soon) so they might as well cater to a 2k/1080p market. right?

[kmikami]

Maybe I'm missing something here but isn't the Mysterium less than an inch wide? I can see the heat and power consumption issues causing some design challenges but something like that Fraunhofer camera with better resolution and a better body design doesn't seem like it's beyond the realm of possibility.

[Vincent Rice]

kmikami, I think it depends on your definition of "pocket" :)

Personally I'm hoping they make it a big pocket. But I trust Red's definition of professional to be "higher quality than the minimum needed for anything Bruce will be directing for the foreseeable future".

Vinney57, you have me interested in C-mount lenses now... but I am interested - have you chosen them because you are trying to decode Red's choice of words, or because you would actually prefer a smaller C-mount camera over, say, a slightly larger PL-mount or even Nikon still lens mount one? A small Nikon still camera like a D40 is still kinda pocketable... like ultra-suede is kinda washable, right? But a Red lipstick cam sounds fun and useful in a strange sort of way too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Pocket sized just seems to suggest a pretty specific size to me and the smallest interchangeable quality lenses are C-mount. There is quite a variety available if you do a search.

My personal dream is something like the gorgeous little 8mm cams of my (distant) youth but giving 1080p onto a flash card.